Yes, I'd be very happy to accompany you to the military base, but not for the reasons that you outline. We, ourselves, are very concerned and very interested in developing the environment, and if the community there would like to develop a golf course, I would also like to develop a golf course for my people. Their health and general recreation is very important to me, so we would be going there for two different reasons.
I have certainly dealt often enough with the kind of problem concerning illegal occupants and will be very sensitive to ensure that they are given the benefit of a discussion between us and them and an indication of what other arrangements have been made.
Hon Mr Groenewald, if the community has approached you because they are interested in developing it for their own purposes, we are also interested. So please carry this message to them. We will develop it for ourselves, and it will be in very good condition. Thank you.
Measures to reduce backlogs in court processes and otherwise accommodate awaiting-trial detainees
15. Mr V G Smith (ANC) asked the Minister of Correctional Services:
(a) What measures are in place to reduce backlogs in court processes, (b) what other alternatives are in place to release awaiting-trial detainees (ATD) who cannot afford bail, (c) what is the progress regarding ten correctional centres earmarked for conversion to remand detention facilities and (d) when will ATD be transferred to these facilities? NO843E
Thank you Deputy Speaker, and thanks to hon Mr Smith for the question. The Department of Correctional Services is participating at the National Integrated Case Flow Management Committee, NICFMC, which is a cluster structure under the leadership of the Department of Justice and Constitutional Development.
It is a primary reality that these delays are court delays and, therefore, not in the domain of the Correctional Services Management. The Department of Correctional Services uses the relevant criminal procedure provisions that enable the following: correctional supervision as an alternative to bail where appropriate; reduction of bail applications in terms of section 63(1); applications by heads of centres for detainees to be released in lieu of bail or the amendment of bail conditions, where appropriate, in terms of section 63(a); the placement of under-18 awaiting-trial detainees, ATDs, under correctional supervision of a correctional officer in terms of section 71; and, of course, plea bargaining in terms of section 10 (105)(a).
The successful use of these provisions requires close co-operation between the criminal justice system departments. There is a continuous process of engagement between these departments at various levels. There are, of course, 11 existing correctional centres earmarked for conversion to remand detention facilities.
The Commissioner of Correctional Services has approved it that an in-depth cost analysis be carried out to determine the possibility of refurbishing these existing facilities. The analysis will be used to request funding from the National Treasury for the refurbishment project. The assistance of the National Department of Public Works has been requested to appoint a team of consultants to carry out the cost analysis. This analysis is expected to be finalised in the current financial year. I thank you.
Thank you Minister. Is there a supplementary question hon Smith?
Thank you, Deputy Speaker. Thank you, Minister, for clarifying that this is an issue not restricted to correctional services only. However, Minister, the founding provisions of our Constitution talk to human dignity and the advancement of human rights. The Bill of Rights talks to individuals not being deprived of their freedom arbitrarily or without just cause.
But we have in our system many individuals who are incarcerated purely because they can't afford bail of R1 000, and they clearly are not a threat to society. When do you think this joint cluster approach will deal with that matter?
Secondly, in terms of the awaiting-trial detainees, you have 33 female awaiting-trial detainees, and five of them have been in prison for more than three years; that's about 15%. Of the 2 847 male awaiting-trial detainees, 512 of them ... [Time expired.]
Hon member Vincent Smith may be aware that there is what is called a "bail protocol", which has recently been signed by the Minister of Justice, the Minister of Police and the Department of Correctional Services. The Bail Protocol is meant to assist us in releasing people whose bails are less than R1 000. That is another way of dealing with overcrowding in the area of awaiting-trial detainees.
I also agree, hon member, that it is inhumane and unconstitutional to have people who are awaiting-trial detainees in the main prison in our facilities. It is for that reason that that team which was reviewing the entire functioning of the Justice, Crime Prevention and Security, JCPS, cluster directed us, as the Department of Correctional Services, to establish within the department a branch that will purely look after the needs and management of the awaiting-trial detainees. It is because of the conditions under which the awaiting-trial detainees are currently kept. We are looking into that matter.
I'm really sorry, hon member, that you could not finish the last question because I didn't understand what the question was about.
Hon Minister, year after year the problem of overcrowding is raised. The question from the DA is: When is the Minister going to look at an accurate forecasting model of the prison population, where the Minister can say what the number of awaiting-trial people coming into your centres in the next five years will be? That is the first part of it.
The second part is that both Judge Jali, from the Jali Commission, and Judge Yekiso, from the Office of the Inspecting Judge, referred to forecasting models. I think the time has come for us to look at this, because we are going to spend R8 billion on new prisons in the next financial year. We really need to look at some forecasting models. That is my question, Madam Speaker.
Thank you very much, Mr Fritz. I don't know what the predictions will be or how to forecast the coming in of new people, because the business challenge we have as the Department of Correctional Services is that, as you release people, more people come into our centres.
At the point when we joined the Department of Correctional Services, we had plus-minus 67 000 awaiting-trial detainees. That was in May. There are many awaiting-trial detainees who have since left our centres, but the numbers are not being reduced, as you are aware.
Much as we are applying all these procedures of trying to alleviate the load and relieve correctional services of people who are awaiting-trial detainees, there is, unfortunately, an increase in violent crimes committed by some people; and the courts obviously decide not to grant bail to persons who have been involved in very serious and violent crimes. They don't grant them bail. We have to live with the reality that we will continue to have that problem.
Lastly, I have been saying, Mr Fritz and hon members, that building more facilities, building more prisons, is not the solution to the challenges of our society. What is of importance is for us to prevent our children from committing crime. That is what we need to address, because if you look at the number of awaiting-trial detainees and even the number of people who are incarcerated at the centres, 70% of those are young people who range in age from 17 to 35 years.
We cannot have an entire generation of people being incarcerated in prisons. There is something which we have to do as a society. We have to take responsibility for what is currently going on in the country, and we have to come to an indaba and discuss what has gone wrong for us to be having these kinds of numbers at our centres and that are also made up of mainly young people. Thank you. [Time expired.]
Thank you, Deputy Speaker and hon Minister for those comments about our children, which we fully endorse. We have supported the restorative justice approach in the Child Justice Bill to prevent reoffending, particularly where there is no danger to society.
Minister, you referred to various initiatives to cut down on the awaiting- trial population and you made reference to section 63(a). Is there not a reluctance to make use of that provision, because the head of a prison then has to admit that the conditions have reached such an overcrowded level that the health of prisoners and wardens is at risk?
As it's only under such circumstances that applications can be brought under section 63(a) of the Criminal Procedure Act, would that not in another sense be a matter of the commissioner admitting a failure before such an application can be brought? Is that not the reason why we see few applications in terms of section 63(a)? Thank you.
It can't be an admission of failure, really. I think that the Office of the Inspecting Judge, Mr Van Zyl, is quite vibrant and very active, and he is keeping all of us on our toes. That is the first thing.
The second issue of overcrowding is a matter which is under discussion and one which has actually become a matter of public debate on how we can best deal with the issue of overcrowding. I think that it wouldn't be too embarrassing or shameful for heads of centres to acknowledge that there is a problem of overcrowding.
In fact, in a number of instances, we have come up with statistics as to the number of bed spaces we have and what number of occupants we have. So it is the bed space as against the number of people incarcerated at the centres.
We know that in many instances we are way above the numbers we should be having at our centres. In some cases, overcrowding is at the level of 200% or even more. I don't think that that is embarrassing; maybe the police are doing a good job.
What is needed is for us to get the courts to appreciate that custodial sentences are not necessarily the best. There are alternative ways of dealing with crime. The issue of conversion of custodial sentences to correctional supervision comes up.
It applies to ATDs, and people should understand that to send a girl child who is 15 or 16 years old to prison for shoplifting to await trial for over a year is inhumane and unconstitutional. A lot of work needs to be done by mainly the judiciary to appreciate that prison or correctional centres cannot be the only answer to the ills of society. Thank you.
Request for particulars of any arms deal approved by the NCACC in the past financial year
5. Mr D J Maynier (DA) asked the Minister of Justice and Constitutional Development:
(1) Whether the National Conventional Arms Control Committee (NCACC) has approved any arms deal in the past financial year; if so, (a) to which country, (b) what weapon system, (c) what are the names of the persons who approved the deal and (d) on what date was the deal approved;
(2) whether the committee had a quorum when the deal was approved; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details?