Mr Speaker, we thank the hon Schneemann for asking a question of such critical significance to our country. Hon members, SAPS, working in partnership with other departments, did an outstanding job in managing the safety and security aspects of the Confederations Cup. Our country received commendations on the success of the soccer competition.
We, as a country, as well as various other bodies, including Fifa itself, were, in fact, highly delighted and satisfied with the overall management of the Confederations Cup. There was a noticeable trend of a reduction in crime in the focal areas, suggesting, amongst other things, the positive impact of high police visibility. Twenty-five arrests were made in cases related directly to the event, including a case where two burglary suspects were arrested, convicted and sentenced within twenty-four hours to a total of ten years' imprisonment.
Hon members, we must indeed mention that we benefited immensely from the fact that our country has accumulated a wealth of experience in hosting major events. Whether this experience is enough or not, will of course be tested to the limit next year.
We are also mindful of the fact that the scale of next year's operation will be much greater. However, even this aspect should be weighed against the vast knowledge accumulated through managing a good number of elections. On the whole, we must reiterate that our government, the people of this country and the African continent are ready to work in partnership to make the next Fifa Soccer World Cup the best ever. I thank you.
Deputy Speaker, I thank the hon Minister for his reply. We want to congratulate our policemen and women for the commitment and dedication they showed during the Confederations Cup, and also to thank their families for the sacrifices they had to make during this time. To all the policemen and women in blue, we want to say that their efforts have indeed made us proud as South Africans.
There have been recent reports of challenges regarding the employment and training of security personnel for the Confederations Cup. Could the Minister indicate whether steps are being taken to ensure that SAPS work more closely with the Local Organising Committee to ensure that all security measures are adequate for the 2010 Fifa World Cup next year? Thank you.
Are there any supplementary questions?
Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Arising from your response, hon Minister ... [Interjections.]
Sorry! Can the Minister reply first? Sorry.
Madam Deputy Speaker, the hon member has touched on a critical point. In fact, after the Confederations Cup, we did interact with the LOC. But I just want to say, as part of what the member has said in commending the police work, that we did have Plan B in case anything happened with the security personnel from the private security industry or the stewards. In fact, those of you who were part of the games would have noticed that members of the SAPS were indeed at the pitch, as it was expected earlier on that we were going to have members from the private security industry. Thank you very much.
Hon Deputy Speaker, arising from your response, hon Minister, it is clear that we learnt a number of valuable lessons during the Confederations Cup. One of the incidents that received wide publicity was the alleged burglary of certain members of the Egyptian team's hotel room. I remember reading "Egyptian team robbed", which clearly was not the case. Burglary is not robbery. This notwithstanding the fact that members of the South African delegation to the German Soccer World Cup had their hotel rooms burgled, with little or no publicity.
However, hon Minister, what progress has been made with the investigations into this alleged burglary? Is it still alleged that Egyptian team members may have allowed the perpetrators into their rooms; and what steps will be put in place to avoid such incidents next year? Thank you.
Madam Deputy Speaker, I thank the hon member. This is a matter which was highly publicised and it came out in a very nasty way, particularly within the media circles in South Africa. But, yes, the matter was investigated and a conclusion was reached on the matter: There wasn't any foreign forced entry into the rooms, and so on. And we were satisfied with the progress that was made there.
The point which we need to emphasise from that process is that indeed members of SAPS were up and about to ensure the safety of people and our visitors to the country, and yet we still emphasise that that happened! Thank you very much.
Thank you, Deputy Speaker. Minister, considering the security debacle during the Confederations Cup, which resulted in the Private Security Regulatory Authority instituting an investigation into allegations that the organising committee and its service providers employed unqualified security guards and stewards and considering that the security manager has just resigned - apparently shortly before being pushed, in fact - and considering that two weeks before the kick-off no company had even been appointed to provide security, is the SAPS ready, financially and procedurally, to step in yet again should these arrangements prove to be equally chaotic for 2010, without our citizens being left unprotected as a result?
Thank you, Deputy Speaker. Hon member, the issue of the security we have just addressed here. As you know, Fifa regulations only allow private security or stewards on the pitch. We are in talks with the LOC, as the committee convened by the Deputy President of the Republic, to ensure that members of the private security industry do their job. If stewards are supposed to be on the pitch, they should be on the pitch. But as I said earlier on, we have taken extra care, particularly with these activities, which involve the entire world as it were. The SAPS will always be ready, and we'll be ready come 2010. Thank you very much.
Madam Deputy Speaker, hon Minister, does SAPS have detailed crime statistics, specifically related to the Confederations Cup, that could be used to analyse trends in preparation for the 2010 Fifa World Cup? If so, Minister, can that information be made available?
Madam Deputy Speaker, I thank the hon member. I am sure we can make those statistics available. But statistics as such will form part of the annual report on statistics, as it were, which will be released. That is one of the questions that is coming up as we proceed.
But on the issue of the Confederations Cup, there were specific incidents and I've just mentioned the statistics here. We do not have more than the ones we have mentioned here, including the arrests that were made during the Confederations Cup, particularly, and focusing around the games and the areas where the games were played. This includes accommodation areas such as hotels and so on. So that's what we can repeat, or we can just forward it to the member. Thank you very much.
Referral of release on parole to Correctional Supervision and Parole Review Board
6. Mr J Selfe (DA) asked the Minister of Correctional Services:
Whether she will refer the release on medical parole of a certain person (name furnished) to the Correctional Supervision and Parole Review Board; if not, why not; if so, (a) when and (b) what are the further relevant details? NO832E
Deputy Speaker, thank you to the hon Selfe. I have articulated my position clearly on this matter before, Mr Selfe. In fact, what is even more interesting to me is that you do not ask or state why it is that I should send this matter for review. And yet I am required to supply reasons why I have not done this.
I have indicated in the past that unless I am provided with compelling reasons to take this matter for review, I will not do so. Until such time as this information is provided to me, I will not do so.
It is not, in fact, correct that I should act on the basis of information that is in the public domain through the media. I thought that we all understood procedures and how the parole system works; and therefore I cannot be expected to take a matter of this nature for review on the basis of the public outcry and of information contained in the media. Thank you.
Deputy Speaker, thank you to the Minister for that reply. I would suggest to the hon Minister that the compelling reasons lie in the fact that by all accounts Mr Shaik is well enough to drive around Durban streets, yet Mr Shaik was released in terms of section 79 of the Correctional Services Act.
That section states that an offender can be released on medical parole only if he or she is in "the final phase of any terminal disease or condition" in order "to die a consolatory and dignified death".
Now if the decision to release Mr Shaik was based on sound medical grounds, why is the Minister so reluctant to have this decision reviewed? Furthermore, Madam Deputy Speaker, what are Mr Shaik's parole conditions; is he adhering to his parole conditions? And why, if he has been released to "die a consolatory and dignified death", has he got parole conditions at all? [Applause.]
Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Well enough to drive around? The two of us don't know that. We read about it. The two of us don't know. We have not seen it. [Interjections.] Well, I saw a photograph of a car supposedly with Mr Shaik's registration number; I did not see Mr Shaik in the car and I don't even know where the car was parked. That is the first point.
Secondly, I don't know what that means. I don't understand. I know when you talk about "terminal disease" or "terminal suffering", it means "dying". Nyani ke! [It is true!]. But if you have a terminal disease, does it imply that you may not be able to work, move around, get into a car and drive? I don't know. [Interjections.] Thula, thula, Natsika! [Keep quiet, Natsika!]
Order!
The person next to Ma Njobe - I've forgotten the name - allow me to talk. Just wait, then you can ask a follow- up question, right? [Interjections.] Kohler-Barnard, honourable, just be honourable.
Now, Mr Selfe, the other thing that I wanted to say to you is that I thought you and I know that there are parole officers responsible for each one of the parolees, and unfortunately for you and me, I have not received a letter from a parole officer suggesting that there is a case for Mr Shaik to answer. Now I cannot base my actions purely on what I read in the media. I have to be given information.
Maybe as part of your oversight function you should actually call the parole officer to account. What I do have, is a file that contains information about communications between Mr Shaik and the parole officer on occasions where he has requested to be released to go out of his premises. [Interjections.] Kohler? Now I really cannot be expected to act on the basis of media reports, with due respect. Thank you. [Applause.]
Deputy Speaker, hon Minister, if some miracle happened and Mr Shaik recovered, and he is not dying and he is fit again ... [Laughter.] You know, a miracle could be drinking French wine, eating curry and a miracle happens and he recovers. If he recovers, will he be sent back to prison, because then certainly he didn't die?
I think the Minister must explain this. I don't know what the law says. I don't know if the law says that if you recover and there is a miracle that you must be sent back to prison. What is the legal position? Thank you. [Applause.]
I also don't know, but what I would propose is that the portfolio committee needs to amend the Correctional Services Act in order to make sure that if a person does not die at a time when we all anticipated that the person would die, that then there should be action taken by way of sending the person back to prison. It is not I who can take that kind of decision; it is the portfolio committee, if it so wishes, which can propose an amendment to the Correctional Services Act.
Madam Deputy Speaker, in connection with what the hon Minister said about not being able to react to articles and suggestions, she is the responsible Minister. Why doesn't she then ask for an in-depth investigation around Mr Shaik? If she doesn't know, why doesn't she make it her business to find out and report to the National Assembly?
Deputy Speaker, one of the things all of us have been saying - and in fact you have said so in the past - is that Mr Shaik should be treated like any other person, like any other citizen, like any other former inmate who is now out on parole. He is not the only one who was released at the time on medical parole. But what we are doing is drawing a lot of attention to an individual and we are elevating him, in my view.
I really suggest that we should actually request the department to come and present to the portfolio committee a whole list of names of people who have been released on medical parole.
Secondly, I want to remind hon members that we have already referred this matter to Judge Desai and the Parole Review Board for them to develop a policy around medical parole. What we have, indeed, is that we release a person on the basis that the person is about to die, but in fact a number of them have not as yet died. Maybe they are dying, but they have not as yet died.
I really want to request that, even with regard to that, it is the responsibility of the portfolio committee to monitor and make contributions and inputs to Judge Desai and his team, to make sure that the whole area of medical parole is properly defined. Thanks.
Madam Deputy Speaker, I would just want you to make a ruling, please, with reference to Rule 61, which says that no member shall refer to any other member by his or her first name or names only. I heard the Minister refer to the hon Diane Kohler-Barnard as "Kohler" and "Kohler- Barnard", and I don't think that is parliamentary. [Applause.]
Madam Deputy Speaker, on a point of order: With due respect, the Minister did not answer any of my questions. Could she answer what I have asked her, please?
Can we move to the next question?
Questions regarding sustainability of government of national unity in Zimbabwe and implementation of provisions in Global Political Agreement
16. Ms M E Pilusa-Mosoane (ANC) asked the Minister of International Relations and Co-operation:
(1) Whether the government of national unity can be sustained in view of the Movement for Democratic Change's (MDC) complaints of breaches by Zanu-PF in Zimbabwe; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details;
(2) whether the provisions in the Global Political Agreement have been fully implemented to ensure that conditions for free and fair elections are created; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details? NO844E
Madam Deputy Speaker, I'm sorry to interrupt further, but the hon Terblanche did in fact raise a point of order and you haven't ruled on that at all. I'm sure that you should rule and simply say that the hon Minister should ...
I'm attending to that; I will rule at some stage.
Only at some stage?
Yes.
Fine. Thank you.
Deputy Speaker, the answer to the question is yes, indeed, there have been very many positive developments in Zimbabwe since the January 2009 SADC Extraordinary Summit. These developments include the passing of Constitutional Amendment 19; they also include the formation of the inclusive government and the passing of the National Security Bill, amongst other things. The country's parliament is also working to fulfil its constitutional mandate and the Joint Monitoring and Implementation Committee is functioning.
There is, therefore, noticeable progress regarding the functioning of the inclusive government, notwithstanding the few outstanding issues which still need to be resolved. All the parties are committed to the full implementation of the Global Political Agreement, GPA, and South Africa, SADC and the AU as the guarantors of the GPA will remain seized with developments in Zimbabwe and will provide the necessary support to the Zimbabwean political leadership to implement the GPA.
The constitution-making process is also progressing, notwithstanding some concerns raised by civil society. Of importance, we believe, is the fact that they continue to participate in the process and as we know, under the GPA, these parties must draft a new constitution for Zimbabwe in order for it to be put to the electorate in a referendum.
Now, recognising the progress in the political and economic reforms that has been made since the formation of the inclusive government in February this year, and also notwithstanding the two outstanding issues that have been referred to SADC for mediation, it is our view that the inclusive government can be sustained and it is the view of our department that the outstanding issues will be resolved soon.
The answer to the second part of the question is "no". Provisions of the GPA have not yet been fully implemented. In order to ensure the conditions for free and fair elections, however, an inclusive and participatory process is underway to draft this new constitution for Zimbabwe under which future elections will be conducted. Thank you.
Deputy Speaker and hon Deputy Minister, I am satisfied with the response to this question. Thank you.
Deputy Speaker, will the Minister consider the appointment of a joint task team between officials of the Department of International Relations and Co-operation and the Department of Home Affairs, and perhaps the Department of Trade and Industry, to assess the social and economic impact that the inflow of the political refugees from Zimbabwe has had on service delivery in South Africa? Thank you. [Applause.]
Deputy Speaker, once again I think the supplementary question has nothing to do with the original question which related essentially to the sustainability of the new Global Political Agreement and the new government in Zimbabwe. However, I will certainly take the question of the hon member back to the Minister for consideration.
I'm sure that she and her colleagues in the Department of Home Affairs and, indeed, in the Department of Trade and Industry are engaged in such activities and in reflecting on what some of these matters mean to us in South Africa. Thank you very much.
Madam Deputy Speaker and hon Deputy Minister, there are serious reports of continued human rights violations, intimidation and arbitrary arrests of MDC activists by the police in Zimbabwe. It is known that the Movement for Democratic Change, MDC, is losing its majority in Parliament because of these arrests.
Just to give one example: The husband of the Minister of Regional Integration and International Co-operation in Zimbabwe, who is an MDC Mutambara official, passed away this week after being attacked in her home in Harare in July by Zanu-PF thugs. What is the department doing to address the deteriorating human rights situation in Zimbabwe? [Applause.]
Hon Mr Mubu has a question on the Order Paper a little later on which refers to the report that he is quoting from and we will answer that duly when that arises.
Suffice it to say at this stage, hon Mr Mubu, that we as a government are fully engaged with the process in Zimbabwe, also as SADC members, in the reconstruction and the developments that are taking place in Zimbabwe.
It is South Africa's wish and desire that Zimbabwe return fully to democracy and that the Global Political Agreement agreed to by all parties is fully implemented, as I've indicated in my response.
South Africa, of all countries in the world, has been the one that has stuck with the process and has taken measures and worked extremely hard in order to see that there is a peaceful and satisfactory resolution to the difficulties that that country has faced. Thank you.
National unity of Palestinian people as a factor in political negotiations between Israel and Palestine
20. Mr M B Skosana (IFP) asked the Minister of International Relations and Co-operation:
(1) Whether the disunity of the Palestinian people was found to be a major impediment to the political negotiations between Israel and Palestine; if not, what is the position in this regard; if so, on what were such findings based;
(2) whether she will assist in bringing about the national unity of the Palestinian people; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details? NO848E
Thank you very much, Deputy Speaker. The position of the South African government on this matter has been that the current divide between Fatah and Hamas does indeed present an impediment to political negotiations between Israel and the Palestinians in that any final political solution, we believe, to the conflict has to have the support of the major political formations in Palestine, including Hamas.
Whilst the Palestinian National Authority President Mahmoud Abbas can negotiate with Israel, as he is the president of the PLO, the current divide between the Fatah-controlled West Bank and the Hamas- controlled Gaza make any final, negotiated solutions to the conflict very difficult to implement. In response to the second part of the question, the South African Representative Office in Ramallah continues to engage with the PNA, PLO and Fatah as well as Hamas in the course of diplomatic practice, in an effort to promote national unity in Palestine. Our government encourages both formations to form a national unity government until new elections can be held in Palestine.
South Africa also continues to encourage the unity of the Palestinian people through and within international forums such as the UN Security Council and the Non-Aligned Movement. Thank you.
Questions regarding management and administration of Marievale, as well as occupation of houses there
3. Mr P J Groenewald (FF Plus) asked the Minister of Defence and Military Veterans:
(1) Whether the SA National Defence Force (SANDF) is responsible for the management and administration of Marievale; if not, who is responsible for it; if so,
(2) whether residents are allowed to stay on in the houses; if so, for how long; if not, why not;
(3) whether alternative housing will be provided; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details; (4) whether she has been informed about the safety concerns and illegal occupation of some of the houses; if so, what steps are being taken in this regard;
(5) whether the SANDF provides daily transport to its members from Marievale; if not, why not; if so, (a) to which bases and (b) what do the monthly costs amount to? NO827E
Hon Groenewald, Marievale is a military base on the East Rand, in the Johannesburg area, and has been a matter of concern for many Members of Parliament; it has been a concern of members of the community around there, too. It has since also become a very serious concern to me.
After a great deal of confusion over who is responsible for the base, we have finally arranged that we, as the Defence Force, are responsible for it. Therefore, the answer is that we are responsible for the administration and the maintenance of the base.
The second question is: Who lives on the base? We have two types of people who live on the base. There are the residents, the official residents, who are SANDF personnel. We also have the unofficial residents - the illegal occupants. The legal residents are allowed to stay, because they work in that environment, and we are trying to assist the illegal residents to find better accommodation elsewhere. The Department of Defence and Military Veterans and the Department of Public Works, in conjunction with the municipality of Ekurhuleni, are in the process of seeking alternative accommodation for the illegal occupants. We are very aware of the danger around the area that they live in, and an interdepartmental task team has been set up to facilitate this.
Yes, I have been informed about the concerns about the area, and I have been given a general overview of the military base. There is no transport arranged for the people who live there, the official residents. They are members of the construction and engineering regiments and their work is very close by, within walking distance, so we have not arranged any transport for them. Thank you.
Adjunkspeaker, eerstens, baie dankie vir die volledige antwoord van die agb Minister. [Deputy Speaker, firstly, I would like to thank the hon Minister for her comprehensive answer.]
You can leave the earpiece, hon Minister, I'll change to English. Actually, I was thanking you for the thorough answer to my question. Deputy Speaker, as the hon Minister said, it was a serious concern for her as well. I think if there is one common aspect about any individual's life, it is that he or she wants certainty about the place where he or she lives and can stay. Now there is clarity, because the community wants to develop the area for the benefit of the entire community and, of course, it will also benefit the