Chairperson, allow me to tender my apologies for inconveniencing the NCOP before I deal with my response to the questions asked by hon Ntwanambi.
Government has had numerous engagements with organised local government, represented by Salga, on the recent service delivery protests and many other issues that are of interest to all of us.
A few weeks ago, President Zuma and various Cabinet Ministers met with premiers from all the provinces, mayors of metros, and the Chairperson of Salga as well as senior officials from the three spheres of government. The purpose of the meeting was to discuss ways in which the three spheres of government can work together in a co-ordinated fashion to speed up the delivery of services and to address the concerns of citizens so that we can prevent the eruption of similar protests in future.
Other leaders of government, especially the Minister for Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs and the Minister in the Presidency: Performance Monitoring and Evaluation as well as Administration, have been visiting municipalities, particularly those affected by protests, to find out about problems faced by communities and, together with the affected communities, to discuss solutions for dealing effectively with problems experienced.
We consider Salga and other institutions of local government to be important partners in addressing problems faced by our people and accelerating service delivery. In due course government will present a comprehensive strategy on how to address problems in local government. We hope Salga and other role-players, in government generally and society at large, will join us in addressing the problems and uplifting the quality of life of all of our citizens. I thank you.
Discussion between government and other social partners and stakeholders regarding improvement of quality of services rendered by municipalities
2. Ms N D Ntwanambi (ANC) asked the Deputy President:
(1) Whether there has been any discussion between the government and other social partners and stakeholders such as civil society and the private sector to work together towards improving the efficiency and effectiveness of the quality of services that are delivered by municipalities; if so, (a) which stakeholders were engaged, (b) what issues were highlighted and (c) what plans were established; if not,
(2) whether government considers this necessary; if not, what is the position in this regard; if so, when can such an initiative be expected? CO30E
Chairperson, hon members, allow me to reiterate what we have said before: Our government values the contribution that our social partners and stakeholders in civil society and the private sector are making towards the development of our country.
We are immensely grateful for the support we have received from organisations and institutions such as the Development Bank of Southern Africa through the "Siyenza Manje" [We are doing it now] programme, which has deployed about 500 experts, especially development planners, financial specialists and engineers to 174 municipalities.
We are also grateful for the support that we have received from the business trust, which is a partnership between government and business that is focused on job creation through tourism. The business trust has also provided support to municipalities for their management of capital projects and assets. Examples of the involvement of civil society and other stakeholders in improving service delivery reaffirm our belief that the enormity of the challenges facing our country can only be addressed if all of us pool our resources and efforts and channel them towards a collective effort.
In conclusion, I would like to say that we will be asking for more support from civil society and the private sector to assist us in addressing the enormous challenges municipalities face in delivering services to our people. I thank you.
UMBHEXESHI OYINTLOKO WEBHUNGA: Sekela-Mongameli, ndikhawulezile, kule ndlela yokuzama ukuthetha-thethana nabantu jikelele, ingaba iinkokheli zemveli niyazibiza na ukuba nazo zize kwesi sithebe senu?
USEKELA-MONGAMELI: Mhlalingaphambili, ewe kunjalo. Njengokuba ndanditshilo ngaphambili, uMphathiswa woRhulumente woBambiswano neMicimbi yeMveli nguye osikhokelayo kule mizamo siyenzayo yokuba sincede abantu bakuthi kule ngxaki bajongene nayo yokungafumani zinkonzo kakuhle. Kunjalo. Enkosi. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraphs follows.)
[The CHIEF WHIP OF THE NCOP: Deputy President, without wasting time, I would like to know if you have invited traditional leaders to be part of the discussions you are going to hold with people in all spheres.
Chairperson, yes, it is like that. As I mentioned before, the Minister for Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs is the one leading us in our efforts to assist our people with the challenges they are faced with as far as lack of service delivery is concerned. It is like that. Thank you.]
Chairperson, Deputy President, one of the most obvious forums for collaboration between government, the social partners and business is Nedlac. The response to the global financial crisis was published more than six months ago by that body. Can you explain why it has taken so long for that body to respond to the global financial crisis, given that some papers are already reporting that we may be coming out of the recession; and why the state and its social partners and business have yet to implement its plans to respond to that recession?
Deputy President, to me it sounds like that is a new question, but my view has always been that if you are ready and have an answer, you may continue. However you are not compelled to answer.
Chairperson, hon Harris, as we all know, the response to the global crisis was developed early in the year, around February, and the efforts to implement it were interrupted by the election campaign.
Since the establishment of the new administration, all stakeholders have hit the ground running. We are, in essence, busy with our efforts to respond adequately to this global meltdown. In fact, our framework has been accepted by the International Labour Organisation, ILO, as a template that they recommend to all other countries that are affected by this economic meltdown. Therefore, the commitment is intact. I know that the President is due to convene his meeting with the parties represented in Nedlac to assess where we are in terms of the implementation of that framework. Thank you.
Sihlalo, okokuqala nje asiqale sibongele uSekela Mongameli wezwe ukuthi wasinda kulesehlakalo esicishe samvelela. Sibonge ukuthi uNkulunkulu wamgcina.
Umbuzo wokuchibiyela kungaba wukuthi ehhovisini likaSekela yini abayibone ukuthi yenza ukuthi izidingo zabantu zingalethwa kahle ngomasipala kuze kube khona nale mibhikisho ekhona? Bazibalile yini ezinye izinto ukuze umphakathi nawo wazi ukuthi uhulumeni kukhona akwenzayo ngoba usezibonile mhlawumbe lezo zinto. Ngiyabonga.
USEKELA MONGAMELI: Ngiyabonga baba, siwuhulumeni esikubonayo ukuthi lapha koHulumeni Basemakhaya empeleni abantu bakithi abawenzi umehluko phakathi kwamakhansela nathi njengamaLungu ePhalamende kanye noMkhandlu Kazwelonke Wezifundazwe.
Okusho ukuthi kulenqubo Kahulumeni Wokubambisana kusobala ukuthi uma singaxhumani kahle senze futhi ukuthi amaKhansela ethu abenalo ulwazi ngalendlela esisebenza ngayo, bahlale ngaso sonke isikhathi benalo ulwazi ukuthi uHulumeni Kazwelonke uzimisele ukwenzani, izinhlelo zime kanjani, nakuzona izifundazwe. Leyonto iyona edala inkinga ngoba abantu bakithi basuke bacele kuKhansela izinsiza ngesinye isikhathi okungukuthi lowo ngumsebenzi wezifundazwe kanye nohulumeni kazwelonke bese kudaleke ukuthi manje kubekhona ukungaboni ngasolinye.
Kanti futhi kukhona nokuthi izinhlelo (IDP) azivezwa kahle ukwenzela ukuthi nomphakathi wazi ukuthi yikuphi okubalulekile okufuneka kuqalwe ngakho. Umasipala ezokwazi ukuthi asebenzele phezu kwazo. Ziyemukelwa kodwa kutholakale ukuthi zaziwa laphaya yikhansela ngaphandle umphakathi awazi kanti futhi nabanye uma ubabuza usuxoxa nabo bakuchazele ukuthi inkinga ababhekene nayo ngeyamanzi. Leyonto ayaziwa yiwo wonke umuntu, ngithatha ukuthi yiyo inkinga enkulu esibhekene nayo kumakhansela. Ngiyabonga. (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)
[Mr D D GAMEDE: Chairperson, firstly, let's start by rejoicing with the Deputy President of the Republic for having survived the incident that nearly befell him. We thank God for saving him.
An additional question would be whether they have noted, in the office of the hon Deputy President, why people's needs are not being met with regard to service delivery by the municipalities, which has led to these protests that are taking place? Did they list some of these things, so that civil society also knows that there is something that the government is doing, because they have already noted those things? Thank you.
Thank you, sir. What we see is that our people cannot differentiate between the councillors at local government level and us as Members of Parliament as well as those from the National Council of Provinces.
This means that with regard to the procedure of this Government of National Unity, it is clear that we have to communicate well with our councillors and inform them of the way in which we do our work, and also inform them at all times what the Government of National Unity is going to do, for example, what programmes are in the pipeline, even in the provinces. That creates problems because our people end up asking for services from the councillors when that is the responsibility of the provinces as well as national government, which results in disagreements.
The Integrated Development Planning programmes are also not well communicated; hence civil society does not know what should be prioritised. The municipality will be guided by them. They are submitted but only to discover that they are known by the councillor only and that civil society out there does not know about them. Hence, when you engage in conversation with them they will tell you that their problem is with regard to water. That is not known by everybody. I assume this is a major problem that we are facing with regard to our councillors. Thank you.]
Modulasetulo, ke kopa gore Motlatsamoporesitente wa naga ya rona a re bontshe tsela jaaka ikonomi ya rona e amegile bobe. Re le baeteledipele mo malatsing a gompieno, a go sengwe se se bontshang gore se ka re fa tshepo ya gore kwa re yang teng re ka bona ikonomi e botoka? Ke a leboga.
MODULASETULO WA KHANSELE YA BOSET?HABA YA DIPOROFENSE: Rre Mokgoro, ke potso e nt?ha eo. Ga se potsotlaleletso e e tshwanetseng e theiwe mo potsong e e boditsweng. Fela ka gore ke a lemoga gore ga re a tlwaela, nka se thibele Motlatsamoporesitente gore fa a na le karabo a go arabe fela o itse gore ga e tsamaelene le potso e e kwadilweng mo pampiring. Motlatsamoporesitente ga ke itse gore a o batla go e araba.
MOTLATSAMOPORESITENTE: Modulasetulo, ke a leboga Modulasetulo gore ke bo ke boditswe potso e e ntseng jaana. Ke tla e araba ka gore mathata a ikonomi ga a aparela rona re le esi jaaka Aforika Borwa. Ke mathata a tota a simolotseng kwa Amerika, jaanong ke ka moo mafatshe a G20 a rileng Amerika e tshwanetse go tswa pele mo mathateng gore le rona re tle re tswe mo mathateng a ka gonne ke yona mmaraka o mogolo. Sekai, fa re lebelela dijanaga, e rile fa ba sa tlhole ba reka dijanaga tse dint?ha kwa Amerika, kgang eo ya re utlwisa botlhoko ka gonne Volkswagen le Mercedes Benz kwa Kapa Botlhaba di ne di aga dikoloi tse di rekisiwang kwa Amerika mme fa ba sa tlhole ba di tlhoka batho ba fokodiwa mo ditirong.
Dimmaene tsa rona tsa polatinamo le tsona di kgona go nna le mmakete fa dijanaga di ntse di dirwa. Selo se sa fetela kwa dimaeneng kwa diketekete di fokoditsweng mo tirong. Ke ona mathata a re leng mo go ona mme a tlile go tsaya gongwe dingwaga di le pedi tse re yang mo go tsona. Re tla tswa mo sekgweng gongwe ka ngwaga wa 2013. E tla bo e le gona re tswang mo mathateng a a ikonomi. (Translation of Setswana paragraphs follows.)
[Mr G G MOKGORO: Chairperson, I would like to request the Deputy President of our country to lead us in this time when our economy is in a crisis. As the current leaders, can we say there is hope for a better economy for the future? Thank you.
Mr Mokgoro, that is a new question. It is not an additional question arising from a question that was asked. Since I am aware that it is not a habit, I cannot stop the Deputy President from answering you if he has an answer, but just know that it does not correlate with the question on the Question Paper.
Chairperson, I like this kind of question. I would answer by saying that the economic crisis is not only faced by us in South Africa. It is a crisis that started in America. That is the reason why the G20 countries said America has to recover first, so that all of us can also recover, because they are the big economic market.
For example, when we look at the motor industry, as soon as people in America stopped buying new cars, it hurt us very badly because Volkswagen and Mercedes Benz in the Eastern Cape were building cars that were sold in America, so when they no longer needed them, people had to be retrenched.
Our platinum mines also benefit from the market when cars manufactured. This thing also made its way to the mines where thousands of people were retrenched. That is the crisis we are in and it is going to be like this for up to two years. We will get out of this jungle by 2013. That is when we will get out of the economic crisis.]
Particulars regarding keeping of data in respect of total number of persons benefiting from indigent policy
3. Ms N D Ntwanambi (ANC) asked the Deputy President:
(1) Whether during the past five years the Government undertook a national audit or currently keeps data in respect of the total number of persons benefiting from the indigent policy; if so, how many persons benefit from this policy in each province;
(2) whether the statistics are sufficiently in line with the Government's commitment to protect and cater for the most vulnerable in our communities such as the poor, child-headed households and pensioners; if so, what are the relevant details; if not,
(3) whether there are any plans to keep such information to determine the effectiveness of the indigent policy; if not, what is the position in this regard; if so, what are the relevant details? CO31E
Chairperson, hon members, with regard to whether a national audit is being done to track beneficiaries of the indigent policy, we do keep data, but we cannot say that it has been professionally audited. The indigent policy covers all areas of social services. Households earning below R800 per month, as per the census of 2001, are classified as indigent. Should their circumstances change, they are removed from the beneficiary category. New ones are added accordingly if they fall within the category. Those falling within this category benefit from the various services of government: health, education, basic services and other related initiatives that relieve distress. For example, municipalities retain the details of those falling within the category of free basic services. The Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs only stores statistical data on the number of households which are benefiting. The statistical data is updated annually. So, regarding the second part of your question, which is whether national government keeps data, the answer is yes, but only to the extent that the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs collates data from municipalities and aggregates it.
With regard to beneficiaries, in March 2009 there were 3 226 000 out of 5,5 million households who were classified as indigent as per the census. Significantly, over half of the households that qualify for free basic water do benefit in all provinces. The picture with regard to free basic electricity is mixed with some provinces doing better than others. The provincial breakdown shows that with regard to free basic electricity the Western Cape province and the Free State province are in the highest bracket, while provinces in the lowest bracket are the North West and KwaZulu-Natal. With regard to free basic water, both the Free State and Gauteng provinces fare much better with 99% and 90% respectively.
The Minister of Education declared 40% of learners to be in no-fee schools in 2009. Individual provinces, given the availability of provincial funding, have exceeded the 40% determined by the Minister. The School Nutrition Programme is targeting 5,6 million learners in 18 000 quintile 1, 2 and 3 primary schools. About 6 053 schools have vegetable gardens as a result of this programme.
The majority of the municipalities are in the process of reviewing their indigent registers to ensure that services are provided only to intended beneficiaries. This will include child-headed households as a means to protect and cater for the most vulnerable in our communities. Yes, there are plans to retain such information to determine the effectiveness of the indigent policy. This information is housed in the database within the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs. Follow-ups are conducted with respect to local municipalities that are not performing well.
To improve systems, speed and capacity to deliver on our commitments to the poor is our priority. We are fully aware of the role of other spheres and we are accordingly engaging them to intensify our efforts. We believe that through initiatives like integrated planning, capacity-building and performance monitoring the identified weaknesses will be eliminated in due course. I thank you.
UMBHEXESHI OYINTLOKO WEBHUNGA: Sihlalo, Sekela-Mongameli, kubakho oomasipala abaye bathi bona abaphisi ngambane, ingakumbi apho umbane uza ngo-Eskom. Urhulumente uthini kulo ndawo?
USEKELA-MONGAMELI: Mhlalingaphambili, lungu elibekekileyo, yingxaki leyo urhulumente azimisele ukuba uza kuyicazulula ngoba njengokuba sisazi ukuba ngeli thuba imilinganiselo ikwinkqubo yokumiselwa. Sibonisene ukuba oku kubalulekile. Lo mba wokuba ngowuphi umboneleli oza kubonelela ngombane ubaluleke gqitha ngoba oomasipala abaninzi bafumana ingeniso yabo ngokubonelela ngombane. Ngalawo mazwi ke ndithetha ukuba yingxaki esiyaziyo leyo, umcimbi uphethwe. Ndiyabulela. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraphs follows.)
[The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Chaiperson, Deputy President, there are municipalities who say they don't provide free electricity, especially electricity provided by Eskom. What does the government say about that?
Chairperson, hon member, that is a problem that government is going to deal with, as we know that measures are in the process of being implemented. We are convinced that this is important. This issue of which service provider will provide electricity is very important because the revenue of most municipalities is increased through providing electricity. With those words I mean we are aware of that problem. The matter is being dealt with. I thank you.]
Chair, I thank the Deputy President for his response. Further arising from the issue of the supply of electricity, there is another problem that we have picked up in our constituencies. That problem relates to the role of water boards. We have discovered that some areas are being charged differently. Some areas are even worse in the sense that they do not even get these services.
Municipalities always respond by saying that they are not in control of the supply of water; the supply of water is in the hands of the water boards. Can the Deputy President shed some light on this by telling us to what extent government is working towards radically transforming these water boards to respond to the needs of our people wherever they exist? Thank you very much.
Chairperson, hon member, I think I'll be able to elaborate on this question when I respond to one of the questions posed by hon member Worth. If you allow me, Chairperson, I would rather deal with it when I respond to one of those questions on rural development.
We are allowing you, Deputy President, to do so.
Chair, arising from the Deputy President's response with regard to the indigent policy and the beneficiaries of that policy, last week the Governor of the Reserve Bank asked:
When millions of people depend on social grants for sustenance, and urban legend has it that teenagers fall pregnant so as to gain access to grants, are we not running the risk of these social grants becoming an end in themselves and thus nurturing a dependency syndrome, destroying the fabric of our society?
With regard to the indigent policy you referred to in your response, can you comment on the risk that the Governor of the Reserve Bank mentions in that statement? Thank you.
Chairperson, on 18 July, Prof Muhammad Yunus of Bangladesh delivered an inspiring lecture in honour of former President Nelson Mandela. One of the profound points that he made was that charity freezes poverty. I thought that was a very profound statement, which meant that, instead of giving people charity, we should all be looking at ways of empowering them to be able to help themselves.
This professor formed the Grameen Bank in Bangladesh to assist women. To date, it has about 8 million women who benefit form it. These women also own and control the bank. So, he was saying we have the potential as a country to condemn poverty to the museum. He also challenged us by saying we can wipe poverty out completely in this country in the next 20 years if we adopt the attitude that for every problem we find a solution, particularly with regard to poverty.
So, social grants are really not sustainable and desirable in the long term, except for the aged and those who are completely incapacitated. With regard to the rest of the sections of our people who are beneficiaries of social grants, we should really find a way of empowering them in our approach so that the number of social grant recipients can decrease instead of increase. We should really strive to take it in that direction. Of course, when we go through difficult times such as recessions, job cutbacks and an increase in numbers of the unemployed, as government we have to be in a position to give relief to those who are in dire need. In the long term the correct approach is to eliminate reliance on social grants, particularly for able-bodied people. Thank you.
Chairperson, last Friday $1,3 billion, which was earmarked for unemployment, was received from the European Union. Could the Deputy President tell us whether this money is going to be used for opportunities, such as those he just spoke of?
I would also like to know, if I may add on to my question, if there is a single database for indigents? This question arises from the fact that there is a correlation; it's not just in a municipality, it goes on to further grants.
Thirdly, in our constituency weeks we picked up a huge problem with child- headed families in schools. We would like to know whether there are special programmes for them in the pipeline somewhere. Thank you.
Chairperson, one of our antipoverty strategies is to find change agents within households that live in abject poverty. We realised that if we tackle this challenge of poverty in that fashion, we could very well identify one or two members of a household who, with the correct focused support, could lift that family out of the poverty in which they are mired. Therefore, when we receive any resources, it will be channelled in that direction to try and ensure that these households do not pass poverty on to the next generation.
This morning I met with a group of youngsters who lived on the streets for years. Some of them lived on the streets for up to seven years. They play street football, which is now an organised sport. These youngsters have just returned with silver from Milan in Italy. Therefore they are world champs and they add to the array of world champs that we have. These are street kids. They were so inspired by what they have been able to achieve.
This is something which indicates that even for those whose conditions seem quite hopeless it is possible to find a way of assisting. There are two gentlemen who are managing and coaching them. Now they've got support from a group of Americans and a film about their achievement, which will be shown across the globe, is about to be made. The timing is perfect, because we are hosting the 2010 Fifa World Cup next year.
To be more direct in responding to the question, our approach in tackling the issue of poverty is one that seeks to empower people. We do understand that relief by way of grants is but a palliative; it's not really a solution to the problem.
I'm not aware of a consolidated database of the indigent across all municipalities. The Ministry for Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs will, without a doubt, work on the efforts of trying to consolidate that. At the moment I'm not aware that they already have that. Thank you.
Assessment of progress made in respect of gender transformation in the public service
4. Ms N D Ntwanambi (ANC) asked the Deputy President:
(1) Whether, over the past five years, there has been an assessment or audit of gender transformation in the Public Service particularly at management and senior management levels to determine the progress that the government is making in implementing its commitment to gender equality and the empowerment of women; if not, why not; if so,
(2) whether such progress is satisfactory; if not, what is the position in this regard; if so, what are the relevant details?