Deputy Chair, hon members, I think one is quite privileged to be participating in a debate of this nature. This is a very important debate because without such a debate we, as Members of Parliament, would be negating, in fact, our own fundamental responsibility of shaping the future of this country. Today's debate is based on a very important theme that reads: Youth Day: Young people at the forefront of uniting our people in the quest to dismantle all apartheid social relations.
Of course, in dealing with this, it would be important for us to reflect on what Nelson Rolihlahla Mandela said when he was reflecting on the Reconstruction and Development Programme of the country and its implications on young people, and I quote: "The youth of our country are valued possession of the nation. Without them, there can be no future."
I think this particular quotation is also premised on a view expressed by the former president of the ANC, Comrade Oliver Tambo. When Comrade Oliver Tambo was making a point on the role of young people in shaping the future, he expressed the notion that a country that did not take care of its young people was a country with no future.
I think these are profound statements that, on their own, reflect that young people are central to the development of their country. At any point, they are located at a strategic point of directing the future of that particular country. Therefore, when one looks at the theme, which speaks about the dismantling of apartheid social relations, it also means that as we participate in this debate today, we need to ask ourselves a fundamental question, and that is: What are these social relations that we as a country and its young people need to dismantle in moving forward and shaping a new South Africa?
For obvious reasons, we need to look back and say that for us to be under these constructed social relations, there is a particular origin. That origin, which leaves us with these constructed social relations, is based on a particular philosophy - the philosophy of H F Verwoerd. This is because H F Verwoerd, in advancing his philosophy of apartheid, was to say that at the centre of it there was no need to teach a black child mathematics because there was no point, as that child would never be able to use that particular tool.
That philosophy then laid the basis to construct a particular society. It is through that philosophy that you then had young people being dislodged from the mainstream of development. Without science and technical knowledge, there was no way that young Africans in particular, and blacks in general, would be able to participate in the development of their own country.
In further deepening that particular philosophical posture, Verwoerd declared that one way of further constraining these young people was to ensure that they subject them to a particular line of thinking, which is that of seeing themselves as subjected to white people. Verwoerd's philosophy of apartheid also subjected young people to a thinking that stipulated that for them to survive, they needed to see a white person as a superior person within society. To accomplish this, Verwoerd introduced what we call language barriers through the introduction of Afrikaans in schools for black people in general and Africans in particular.
This led to the resistance of 1976, when young people said, "No way, ours is not about these social relations as constructed by the philosophy of Verwoerd. Ours is about a country that is united, nonsexist, democratic and takes into account the values of all those who live in it. Therefore we shall resist the kind of systems that are being put in place to subject ourselves to the kind of situation that we are put into."
It is through these relations and the advancement of this particular philosophy that even young people in the rural areas were subjected to old laws that were brought into place even before they were born. Those laws defined the rural areas as labour reservoirs for the mines and farmers, with those who laboured not having any rights. This meant that young people who were African, young people who were defined as blacks in South Africa, had no opportunities at all. As a result of the lack of opportunities, lack of skills, lack of knowledge and lack of empowerment they were then unable to participate in the construction of the South Africa they lived in.
Therefore, it is important for me to say this because the theme will then give rise to the questions: What is it that we need to do in order to dismantle these social relations? What is it that we need to undo that was done by the philosophy that was introduced to the African people at that particular point?
Of course, there is a response that has been provided by the democratic breakthrough of 1994, which, in the main, placed young people at the centre of development. That response placed young people at the centre of the reconstruction of our country, and at the centre of uniting this country. Furthermore, it placed young people at the centre of ensuring that in whatever way we democratise the country, at the centre of that process must be the beneficiation of anything for the young people and how they should be able to do those things. We can only find that in the Reconstruction and Development Programme, as adopted by the government of South Africa after 1994.
That is why there is the expression that says "the youth of our country is the valued possession of the nation. Without them, there can be no future." It is on the basis of this that programmes developed for the benefit of young people over the past 16 years have seen so much progress, development and change in the lives of young people in this country.
We have, of course, also seen government coming forth in 2009 and asking how to begin to further place young people at the centre of development. We have also seen, in terms of the five priorities that government has put in place, that one of the key pillars that informed the government's programme was education. With regard to education, we saw government splitting the former Department of Education into the Department of Basic Education and the Department of Higher Education and Training.
At the heart of that was the aim to dismantle what Verwoerd did and ensure that we reconstruct our country and the education system to respond to the needs of our young people. Through Verwoerd's philosophy, we could not have had young people emerging as artisans. We could not have young people emerging as doctors. We could not see blacks in general and Africans in particular coming out as engineers and so forth. So the reconfiguration of the former Department of Education is in response to that particular philosophy. The aim is to dismantle it in order to ensure that our young people are then channelled towards skills are geared to ensure that they are empowered when it comes to issues related to science and technology.
Government has committed itself and money that has been set aside to empowering, reconstructing and strengthening the capacity of further education and training, FET, colleges. It is through these that we will be able to then regenerate the skills of young people for them to acquire artisan skills and so forth. This will enable young people to be self- employed and to get into the mainstream of the economy and become employable.
The other thing that we have talked about in terms of the five pillars is the issue of decent jobs. If one looks at the question of decent jobs and how these decent or indecent jobs have impacted on young people, one has to ask oneself the following question: Who are the people that are seriously affected by the labour brokers? It is the young people, because it is these people who are desperate and who want to get employment and so forth. Through the labour brokers they then get abused, enslaved and their pride taken away.
As a result, the question about this pillar of the creation of decent jobs and the call to revisit the constructiveness of labour brokerage is in response to and in protection of the interests of young people. Furthermore, it is also an instrument of dismantling the social relations wherein Africans in particular and blacks in general were always seen as labour providers and not as job creators and so forth.
One other pillar, which one cannot leave the podium without referring to, is the role of young people in terms of health. Young people today are at the forefront. We have seen the campaigns and the programmes that have been developed by the National Youth Development Agency around healthy lifestyles. It is these young people who understand better what a healthy body means in relation to job creation, the development of an economy, the sustenance of a society, and the construction and development of that particular society.
Part of the issues that young people in this country are geared towards, informed by this particular pillar, is the mobilisation of our people around healthy lifestyles. This is due to the fact that they are at the receiving end when it comes to issues relating to unhealthy lifestyles.
Deputy Chair, I can see that you are going to stop me. But let me just state that it is these young people who have been at the centre of the reconstruction and development of this country. The readmission of South Africa into world sports is due to the contributions of young people. Today we are united as a nation. We are enthusiastic and we are looking forward with great anticipation to being World Cup winners. We could not have done that if it were not for the young people of this particular country. As we speak today, the final 23 who make up the World Cup squad are, in actual fact, young people of this particular country, and they are going to make us proud. Thank you. [Applause.]
Deputy Chairperson, hon members, the week after next, on Youth Day, we will remember the hundreds of students who died on June 16, 1976, in the anti-apartheid cause and many others. We owe them a debt of gratitude that a debate like this is now possible in a free and democratic South Africa. [Interjections.]
But once we have paused to remember, we must move on to debate the issues facing young South Africans today.
Now, Mr Tau's very eloquent important history lesson has comprehensively explained the starting point for many of the problems that we face as a country. It was apartheid. But every member of this House agrees on that. It is impossible therefore for me to debate something we all agree on. I could debate this government's failures to deal with those problems in the past 16 years, but I am not going to do that. Instead, I want to look at the solutions going forward, specifically how the ANC's alliance partners are standing in the way of those solutions.
I don't think that anybody would disagree that every other issue raised in this House today must pale in insignificance in the face of the fact that 3,1 million young South Africans are walking our streets, unsuccessfully trying to find work. Sixteen years later, the most lasting effect of apartheid social relations is seen in youth unemployment.
Two out of every five people under the age of 34 are unemployed. All in all, 3,1 million youth are without work, which is 73% of the total number of unemployed people in our country. The job crisis in South Africa is a crisis of the youth, not labour brokers, Mr Tau - because 3,1 million young people dream of getting a job through a labour broker, but they cannot find one at all.
It doesn't have to be like this, and you will not be surprised to hear that the DA has a policy proposal that will help to create hundreds of thousands of jobs for South Africans. We call this policy a "wage subsidy".
You may be surprised to hear, Deputy Chairperson, that the ANC government agrees with this policy proposal. In this year's state of the nation address, President Zuma announced that his government would be introducing it.
Then, in the Budget Speech, Pravin Gordhan gave more details on the policy. He predicted that it would create half a million new jobs in three years. He said that a discussion document setting out further details of what he called a "youth wage subsidy" would be tabled at the end of March. The DA, the economists, the academics and civil society enthusiastically welcomed this new openness to fresh ideas to tackle youth unemployment, because a youth wage subsidy won't result in lower wages and provides formal and regulated employment. Even South Africa's second biggest trade union federation, Fedusa, welcomed it, saying: As Fedusa, we were very impressed with the proposed wage subsidy. We think that's a progressive initiative by government.
Why then, if we have a new policy that will help fight youth unemployment that government, the opposition, civil society and Fedusa agree on, has Treasury still not published the document as they said they were going to two months ago?
The unfortunate answer is: because the ANC government tripartite alliance partners are involved in a power struggle for control of economic policy and political influence. They oppose the wage subsidy simply because it does not come from the Minister that is from their side of the Cabinet.
Their opposition is political, because they simply reject the idea out of hand by saying they have always objected to the wage subsidy. They are not even willing to engage it on its merits or drawbacks.
So, Deputy Chairperson, the National Treasury's Youth Wage Subsidy Policy is now the victim of a fight for political influence between Cosatu and their leftist Ministers, with the ANC and their centrist Ministers. And while they fight, 3,1 million young South Africans remain unemployed. Based on the Finance Minister's projections, the implementation of a youth wage subsidy would create around 17 000 new jobs per month. Every week it is delayed, it costs us 4 000 job opportunities.
Ninety years ago, William Butler Yeats wrote:
Turning and turning in the widening gyre The falcon cannot hear the falconer; Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold.
The alliance partners cannot ask 3 million young South Africans to wait while they squabble - the centre cannot hold. They cannot hold up policies that will create jobs for the youth. The pressure will become too much. If Cosatu continues to block the youth wage subsidy, the centre cannot hold.
Earlier this week, my colleague Lindiwe Mazibuko and I wrote to the President asking him to intervene in this policy deadlock. While we sincerely hope he does, we doubt he will because he seems compromised by the fact that Cosatu helped him reach the Presidency. [Interjections.]
Further on in the same poem I quoted earlier, Yeats wrote:
The best lack all conviction, while the worst Are full of passionate intensity.
President Zuma cannot allow Cosatu's passionate intensity to continue to undermine Finance Minister Pravin Gordhan's conviction to implement this progressive policy. If he does, the centre will surely not hold, and the alliance will split.
However, Deputy Chairperson, the day it does will be a happy day for unemployed South Africans. On that day, the ANC will be free to implement universally accepted policies, such as the youth wage subsidies that will help to create thousands of jobs for young South Africans. Thank you. [Applause.]
Chair, before I start with what I want to speak about, I want to respond to some of the issues raised by the hon Harris. It is a myth that Cosatu helped the President of the country to become the President, because the ANC was elected by more than 10 million South Africans, and Cosatu has only 2 million members.
So 60% of the South African population has confidence in the ANC, and it can't be true that the centre is not holding. Maybe the centre is not holding in the Western Cape, because the premier is unable to give clear figures as to how many millions were given to people whose contracts they terminated before their actual timeframes ended.
Hon Harris has nothing to say, because this issue of the wage subsidy has been adequately responded to by the Deputy President of the country in this House, when he said it was work in progress. The document is with Cabinet, because the Deputy President ... [Interjections.]
Hon Harris, you're very quick to refer to the Rules. Could you just give the person at the podium time, please. And if you want to say anything, could you go through the correct channels. Do me a favour: Sit down and be attentive. Continue, hon member.
Thank you, Chair. Lastly, it is again a myth to suggest and to mislead the people of South Africa that the tripartite alliance is engaged in squabbles. In the tripartite alliance we believe in engagement. We are busy debating and engaging with each other, unlike in the DA, where only the leader of the party can say what is going to happen. So, the alliance engages. There are a lot of us with different ideologies in the alliance. So it is not one person, as in the DA: Madam Helen Zille - whatever she says goes. Now, in the ANC and the alliance, we engage. [Interjections.]
Madam Chair and hon members, every year on 16 June South Africans celebrate Youth Day. This year the theme for our Youth Day is "Young people at the forefront of uniting our people in the quest to dismantle all apartheid social relations". Whereas June is an important month on the calendar of our country, a day for the commemoration of the blood of young people lost in the struggle against apartheid, whose blood glorifies the tree of freedom we are enjoying today, it is also a day to celebrate the progress made by the generations of young people who followed the 1976 generation: their efforts and strides to build a united, nonracial and nonsexist South Africa ...
Just hold on. Hon Mlenzana, do you have a point of order?
No.
What is it?
... [Inaudible.] ... if the hon member is ready to take a question?
Not now. Do me a favour: Sit down. [Interjections.] Are you prepared to take a question, hon member?
No, Chair. I want to finish my speech. I won't take a question.
That's the response. Continue, hon member.
... their efforts and strides to build a united, nonracial and nonsexist South Africa and dismantle all apartheid social relations. Thus, I will confine myself to the post-1994 social relations and programmes by young people to unite our people, which underpin the work by the youth in various formations across the religious, political and cultural spectrums. Foremost, it must be noted that understanding the apartheid social structure and the current challenges facing the youth in South Africa will give credence to the efforts that ordinary young South Africans have taken to create a nonsexist, nonracial and democratic society.
The situation was comprehensively explained by Dr Blade Nzimande during the Jobs for Youth Summit, organised by the Young Communist League of SA, and I quote:
Ironically, the very problems facing our youth are exploited by other forces to create further problems and constraints. For instance, our youth today is a target of drugs, exploited by labour brokers, given false hopes and corrupted by tenderpreneurs and a target of decadent American values and cultural onslaught. Therefore sustained youth programmes by all youth formations are necessary to counter these problems. A key dimension of this is a sustained struggle to cultivate positive values among our young people: that it is good to be educated, service to one's country and social solidarity, and to defeat ideas of dog eat dog.
We therefore support the National Youth Development Agency as a vehicle to unite further the young people of our country, and we further call upon the government to increase funding for this vehicle of youth development.
Following the recent racial outbursts and misunderstandings after the death of Mr Eugene Terre'Blanche and the singing of particular revolutionary songs, our country has taken positive steps, which have fostered social cohesion and national unity such as the hosting of Super 14 rugby matches in Soweto and the showing of support for Bafana Bafana by all our people, especially the youth.
Furthermore, one noteworthy development was a constructive meeting of the ANC and FF Plus held three weeks ago, at which it was agreed that there would be a follow-up meeting to take forward matters that were raised by the FF Plus.
The FF Plus raised the following issues: name changes in the country, use of Afrikaans as a medium of instruction in our education system, safety and security of farmers, issues of amnesty, self-determination, poverty and affirmative action. It is against this background that we urge all young people across the political spectrum to engage in debates inside their political organisations and youth organisations alike to give impetus to these debates about the aforementioned issues.
However, we should also emphasise that the concepts of nonracialism, social cohesion and nation-building should not take precedence over the genuine transformation in sport and recreation, in the economy of our country, including in factors of representation, selection on merit and resource allocation.
The Constitution of the Republic in its preamble persuades us, amongst other things, to recognise the injustices of our past, heal the divisions of the past and establish a society based on democratic values, social justice and fundamental human rights.
In conclusion, the submission by the ANC to the World Conference Against Racism held in August 2001 outlined the universal message and spirit with which to welcome the world to our shores during Youth Month and in celebrating 16 June as follows. The richness of the planet's cultural diversity is in itself the latent all-embracing spiritual force from which we can create a world that is free of conflict and poverty, racism and intolerance. Through the centuries we have witnessed disregard and contempt for the inalienable dignity of human beings. We have witnessed barbaric acts that have outraged the conscience of humankind, and we have witnessed slavery, genocide, colonialism and war.
We have proclaimed that the advent of a world in which all human beings enjoy fundamental human rights and freedoms is the highest desire for all. I thank you, Chair. [Applause.]
Inkosi N B SHABALALA (KwaZulu-Natal): Hon Chairperson, hon members, one is privileged to participate in today's debate about our young people. To understand the majority of our youth today, we need to understand the context in which they are living.
The key features of our country can be summed up as follows: the persistence of many features of apartheid; growing socioeconomic inequality; mass poverty and unemployment; declining living standards; and a devastating HIV and Aids pandemic - a pronounced feature of social disintegration. Despite all the interventions by the democratic government, young people bear the brunt of all these realities. This is the stuff of the youth in crisis.
However, the youth in their organisations in the townships, in the villages and on the farms of South Africa need to take advantage of the favourable legislative and policy framework for participation in processes affecting their needs and interests.
Organised youth should strive to participate in and influence every phase of the process of consultation, planning, budgeting, managing, monitoring, public feedback and review.
In order to know their rights, young people need to know the relevant provisions of the Constitution and the duties that the different spheres of government expect of them.
Local government, for instance, has a unique position in relation to local communities. It is closer to the people and more accessible than other spheres of government. Youth should identify a full range of specific demands around all these duties and responsibilities of local government. The National Youth Commission has stated that local government is most strategically positioned to implement youth policy and youth work. The view is that local municipalities' youth development visions and policies can be translated into services and facilities that meet the needs of the youth.
The dissolution of the National Youth Commission and the Umsobomvu Youth Fund, however, was not a surprise as it was a response to the failures of these bodies to spearhead development.
The mammoth challenge facing the National Youth Development Agency is whether it is capable of rising above the tripartite alliance politics in order to restore ownership of the agency and youth development itself to all young people, irrespective of political affiliation.
We are impressed that the NYDA has taken the initiative, together with the Local Organising Committee, to facilitate training of 15 000 youth volunteers. They are participating in road shows and targeting rural areas in order to mobilise the youth to rally behind Bafana Bafana.
With the 2010 Fifa World Cup being here, there could not be a better time for South Africa to show the world that sport does indeed inspire and unite people. The NYDA, as one of the high-level institutions focusing on youth development, needs to deepen democracy, encourage more inclusive policy- making and, especially, increase more public engagement and empowerment of young people.
Hosting the 2010 Fifa World Cup provides an excellent opportunity for young people in our country to gain skills and work experience in a wider range of areas, such as foreign language interpreting, call centre operating, tour guiding, marshalling and ushering, etc.
When the World Cup is over, that would be the time to intensify soccer training, the building of local stadia and to have administrative help, equipment and technical support for communities, so that kids can play the game regardless of their family's finances, gender, geography, ethnicity or language. Funding will help improve public sports facilities across South Africa, further boosting South African sport and helping to build better and healthier communities.
Organised sport is being used throughout the world to maintain social cohesion and facilitate peace. As South Africa has a population of more than 9 million young people between the ages of 15 and 25, youth sport represents one of the most dynamic mechanisms in society for transformation, because organised sport can engage the youth of all races, genders and classes. Thank you, Chairperson. [Time expired.] [Applause.]
Morning, Deputy Chairperson. Thank you very much for the opportunity to be here today. ..."the task that we face is indeed a challenging one. But the cost of failure - for this generation's children and the next - is simply too high to bear." Those are the words of Graa Machel, the wife of Nelson Mandela.
Children and young people below the age of 24, who make up 60% to 70% of the population of most developing countries, represent the future generation, with enormous potential to achieve sustainable development. Youngsters especially - those between the ages of 15 to 24 - are able to contribute materially, through special skills, and intellectually, particularly with alternative viewpoints and innovative ideas.
The World Bank acknowledges, in its World Development Report of 2007, the youth's positive potential not only in initiating but also in implementing positive social change, if they could only get involved through participation.
However, society has to provide a supportive environment, sufficient assistance and opportunities, first of all, by investing in the human capital of these young people through adequate education, health, employment and recreation possibilities. Only then are youngsters able to become responsible adults and achieve their full potential to contribute to society's development and socioeconomic growth.
Yet the reality is that the youth are often perceived more negatively in terms of social problems, with society being reluctant or incapable of investing in the youth and/or involving them in the processes that directly concern them. This results in "depriving society of their energy, dynamism and innovative spirit", and, through this disregard, turning the youth into an uncontrollable conflict situation.
Therefore, in the World Youth Report of 2007, the United Nations states that "engaging the youth fully in the region's development is thus not a matter of choice, but an imperative". Nelson Mandela, a former President, said as well that: "The experience of all peoples is that their freedom remains fragile and their rights empty shells unless they bring real improvements to the lives of ordinary people." This quotation was taken from an address in which he emphasised that ordinary people needed to be given opportunities to bring about real improvements in their lives.
The youth of South Africa face many daunting challenges. Three million, as we have already heard, are unemployed. In the Western Cape the youth are no less challenged. We have an estimated 80 000 to 100 000 gangsters here in the Western Cape. The high levels of gangsterism and the associated social problems are the result of deteriorating social networks and of young people who seem to experience high levels of alienation and purposelessness. The vast majority of these youngsters are aged between 16 and 22 years. The majority of victims of crime fall into this category as well.
Positive male role models are often absent and this has contributed to a loss of self-esteem and self-confidence. This has led to some of the highest crime rates in South Africa and by far the highest drug-abuse rate by a factor of three.
Peer pressure plays an enormous role in this regard. Most young people lack marketable skills and have limited opportunities to participate in the formal and informal job markets. Many young people are waiting for opportunities to bring about real improvements in their lives.
The schooling system does not lend itself to artisan-based training, and many learners find themselves in conflict in the classroom because they are simply bored or are not suited to academic subjects.
Perceptions are that HIV and Aids and other social problems, such as crime, violence, abuse, drugs, prostitution, teenage pregnancy, substance abuse and parental neglect are wreaking havoc on the lives of young people. The irony is that for these very youth, the freedom and rights that seemed so promising after the dark years of apartheid are elusive and seemingly unattainable. The question needs to be asked: Where did we go wrong?
Since the Year of Youth in 1985, the United Nations has defined youth as being all young people between the ages of 15 and 24, taking into consideration the various concepts of youth in the different cultural and institutional contexts.
However, in South Africa, according to the National Youth Act of 1996, the term "youth" comprises a larger age group, including all persons from the ages of 14 to 35. These different definitions of age alone give an idea of the difficulties when trying to grasp analytically what youth in all their complexity mean.
In most of the literature, youth are simply connected to the concept of adolescence, which was invented in the early twentieth century as a universal linear transition period from childhood to adulthood, with a focus on physical and psychological development. In this phase, young people are facing various changes on different levels, especially owing to hormonal changes during puberty and trying to construct their own identity, so that adolescence is generally presented as a time of storm and stress, conflict and confusion, which makes them vulnerable to risky behaviour.
This is compounded in our system at the moment by too few male teachers acting as male role models. Little emphasis is placed on youth leadership, such as prefect bodies, and there is an absence of structured physical education in school. I could go on.
For those youngsters leaving school, especially the early leavers, there are very few clear-cut options. The military, in many countries an option for those needing a change, is essentially a closed shop in this country, with a very low volume of intakes.
Skills training appears unstructured, with too few options at the moment, and even a place like the traditional dockyard, which produced outstanding artisans in the past, has been lost as an option.
In the Western Cape we are working towards a comprehensive youth strategy. Already all departments have their own youth projects in place. One such department is the Department of Economic Development and Tourism in which they have a number of projects, like a new venture creation project for women, a public-private partnership for 100 females that will run for the next two years.
There is also the workplace skills programme, the contact centre, which is a call centre programme, and a tourism-based project that will take 400 disadvantaged people into this industry.
Significantly, today is the 10th anniversary of Project Chrysalis, which falls under the Department of Community Safety. This unique award-winning programme, now recognised both internationally and nationally, takes unemployed youths between the ages of 17 and 25 and puts them through three months of rigorous training. Training often lasts 18 hours a day. Emphasis is placed on physical, emotional and spiritual wellness while, at the same time, exposing the youths to skills opportunities and developing the full potential of an individual. Of the thousands of graduates, some are here working in this parliamentary precinct at the moment.
The essence of the training is based on personal growth and group discipline, teamwork, proper preparation for life, and one's rights and concurrent responsibilities within a constitutional state.
Significantly, this approach has attracted many more applications than there are places available. The academy has had to stop advertising, and even three more such institutions would not cater for the volume of students applying.
Ironically, this approach is almost the opposite of the one taken by the government at the moment in approaching youth development, where malcontents are tolerated - eulogized, even. Their misbehaviour has seen destruction, disruption and dishonour wrought upon their generation and the country as a whole. Simply giving money to misguided youths is like giving razor blades to a child, or substituting parental guidance and love by dropping your child off at the mall with wads of cash.
South Africa is missing a huge opportunity in youth development. There is a desperate need for inspired leadership on the matter. Ironically, our youth are hungry for challenges and not handouts. The problem lies with us, the adults, who are confused, morally bent and who shy away from reality - and we have heard about some of that this morning.
In the early 1930s, at the height of the Great Depression, Franklin Delano Roosevelt championed several nationwide initiatives to lift his country, especially the youth, out of poverty. One such project was the Civilian Conservation Corps. This project, a cross between our Expanded Public Works Programme and the Chrysalis model, helped millions of youths and laid the foundation for the most advanced parks service in the world today. Members would do well to Google this project and find out what it did for the United States.
There is a danger, however, that any person who feels that youth development is a chance to misuse our youth politically, to sell them an inferior product, or to create false expectations, is doing not only those youths a grave disservice, but undermining the nation as a whole. Leadership in this noble cause must be pure, uncompromising and focused on nation-building.
In that regard, I would like, if I may, Deputy Chair, to address myself to one or two comments that were made this morning, because I would have thought, as very highly paid public representatives, that we would know a little bit more about our Constitution. Here is a copy of the provincial constitution of the Western Cape. It is a fully authorised legal document. It came into operation on 16 January 1998. I have a copy here for the Deputy Chairperson, which I will give to the Table to pass over to the Deputy Chairperson.
Chapter 4 of the constitution says that "the executive authority of the Western Cape is vested in the premier". [Interjections.]
Hon member, could you stick to the debate, and your time ...
In conclusion, Madam Chair, I think that it is very important when we debate enormously important topics in the House of this nature, which should be a beacon of hope for the youth, that we stick to the facts of the matter. The facts of the matter are that although I am a member of the Western Cape, because I may be wearing a Western Cape badge, I am a member and citizen of the South African Republic. [Applause.]
Chairperson, thank you for this opportunity. My colleague - I would call him my honourable friend Tau - started this debate this morning. Now, unfortunately, because of all the hot air that he released here, I cannot agree with him.
Die agb Tau sou skynbaar vanoggend vir ons probeer oortuig het dat 'n waatlemoen en 'n boerpampoen dieselfde ding is, maar dit is nie so nie. [The hon Tau was apparently trying to convince us this morning that a watermelon and a white pumpkin are the same thing, but this is not so.]
It seems that he has selective amnesia, because I want to disagree with him on four levels.
Om die Verwoerdiaanse filosofie te gebruik as die enigste oorsaak van Suid- Afrika se ontwikkelingspatrone kan, verseker, nie waar wees nie. En dit is juis daarom, agb De Beer, dat ons die effek wat kolonialisme en apartheid op Suid-Afrika se ontwikkelingspatrone gehad het in ag moet neem. So, ons kan nie net op die invloed van apartheid fokus nie, maar ons moet ook gaan kyk wat die invloed van die effek van imperialisme vr dit op Suid-Afrika se ontwikkelingspatrone was. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)
[To present the Verwoerdian philosophy as the only thing to have shaped South Africa's developmental patterns can surely not be accurate. And this is precisely why, hon De Beer, we must take into consideration the effect that colonialism and apartheid had on South Africa's developmental patterns. We therefore cannot focus only on the effect of apartheid, but we should also look at the effect of imperialism before it on South Africa's developmental patterns.]
The next issue is one that the ANC continually wants to use and misuse. It is this misnomer of continually referring to Africans in particular and blacks in general. To continually refer to that is a very narrow and shallow argument and I think it is necessary that we move forward and away from it.
Daardie argument gaan ons nie vorentoe vat in terme van wat ons wil bereik nie. Ten opsigte daarvan, en van die hele kwessie van taal en Afrikaans, is dit nodig om te erken dat daar 'n tyd was toe die Afrikaners in hierdie land opgestaan en ges het, "Engels, Engels, alles Engels." (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)
[That argument will not take us forward in terms of what we wish to achieve. In this regard, and that of the whole question of language and Afrikaans, it is necessary to acknowledge that there was a time when the Afrikaners in this land stood up and said, "English, English, everything English."]
And it has very little to do with Africans or blacks, in particular, but much more to do with the collective responsibility we, as South Africans, have towards the future of this country.
The third matter regarding which I have a serious issue with the hon Tau and his colleagues is that they speak like Tarzan but walk like Jane. [Laughter.] They were the ones who until 1999 motivated that labour brokerage in South Africa was the worst evil in the current circumstances. And then, in 1999, when they had to implement the legislation, they did a U- turn.
So, for a senior member like the hon Tau - a senior communist, I must say - to come here today and talk about labour brokerage and his own party, who reneged on the mandate that was apparently given to him, can certainly not be true, and further link it to the youth. That cannot be right, Chairperson.
The last issue that I want to take up is that of window-dressing by this ANC government. To purport to speak to the FF Plus and address the issues in terms of a national identity and so on certainly cannot be right.
Die VF Plus is 'n absolute klein minderheid wat, met respek, 'n beperkte politieke invloed in Suid-Afrika het. [Tussenwerpsels.] En om dit voor te hou, agb lid ... [Tussenwerpsels.] [The FF Plus is an absolute minority which, with respect, has limited political influence in South Africa. [Interjections.] And to hold this up, hon member ... [Interjections.]]
Order!
And I must say sometimes I think the hon member Maine wants to be a mini-me Malema. [Laughter.] To come and use that and say that is the solution to our challenges in terms of nation-building cannot be true.
So, agb Voorsitter, wat is die oplossing, as u my sal toelaat? [So, hon Chairperson, what is the solution, if you will allow me?]
We must acknowledge that we live in a globalised world. We must focus on education. We must focus on the widespread unemployment. But, above all, the youth must provide us with quality leadership, not the leaders of the youth league of this country. That is not leadership. [Interjections.] Yes.
So, in terms of that, I want to conclude by saying we must take collective responsibility for our future. I thank you. [Time expired.] [Applause.]
Hon Deputy Chair, hon Chief Whip, hon members ...
Wait, wait, wait, Gunda. Order, please! Let us respect the person who is debating. Continue.
Thank you for your protection, hon Deputy Chair. Hon Deputy Chair, hon members of this House, all protocol observed. This debate is indeed really, really important for the youth of today, and I want us to be honest. John C Maxwell said that whenever you are a leader and someone criticises you and you just shout that person down, you are actually stupid. John C Maxwell also went on to say that in order for a human being to reach his or her goal, he or she needs to be a disciplined human being.
I would like to say to the youth today in this debate that it is a shame that so many of them are still unemployed. It is heart-breaking to see that some of them cannot get bursaries. It is heart-breaking to see that 70% of the youth are unemployed. It is heart-breaking. And, and we must be honest: yes, the government is trying its utmost, but the government is not doing enough. Regarding the Umsobomvu Youth Fund and the National Youth Agency, the government must bring the culprits to book. What are they doing? Millions of rands are given to certain individuals while the really poor people are suffering. We cannot allow this kind of thing to go on. It is impossible.
Die jeug van 1976 het met hul lewens betaal vir hierdie vryheid, en die jeug van vandag het nie vryheid nie. Ons is nie ekonomies vry nie. Ons is polities vry, maar ons jeug het nie ekonomiese mag nie. Om van hierdie jeug leiers te maak, moet jy hulle begin verantwoordelik maak. En om hulle verantwoordelik te maak, moet jy vir hulle ekonomiese vryheid gee. Ek dink aan 'n kind en ek sien hoe ons kinders ... (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)
[The youth of 1976 paid with their lives for this freedom, and the youth of today do not have freedom. We are not free economically. We are free politically, but our youth have no economic power. To turn the youth into leaders one has to start by making them responsible. And to make them responsible means giving them economic freedom. I think of a child and I see how our children ...]
Members of Parliament would agree. When your children go to bed, they don't worry because they know there is food on the table. What about the children who go to bed and there is no food, and they get up the next morning knowing there isn't even porridge for them to eat? [Interjections.] And that is why I am saying to you, Maine, do not ask me what I am doing. Stop wasting the millions and do the right thing, Maine. Hon Maine, do the right thing.
I would like to say this: Until we come to the point where we acknowledge that the youth are valuable ... Young people have value. Young people just need to be directed. Young people just need to be helped and to be educated - given a decent, quality education; not just certain individuals, but everyone in South Africa belongs to South Africa. The Freedom Charter says that all who live in South Africa shall share in this country. I thank you. [Applause.]
Mr S A DUMA (KwaZulu-Natal): Hon Chair, I think I should first mention that we must dwell very much on the principles of profit and advantage when we deal with the issue of this forefront concept of youth today versus the issue of justice, balance and the reciprocity process.
I completely agreed with hon Chairperson R J Tau when he specifically articulated the issue of labour brokers. You currently understand that they constitute not even a significant minority, but they take all the profit margins. That is why he is expressing that perspective. [Applause.]
You must also take into cognisance the fact that we are dealing with the alarmist populists of this world who are going to say a lot of things. The reality and the crux of the matter is that a lot has been done and achieved as well.
Oliver Tambo, the former president of the ANC, once said that a country that does not take care of its youth is a dead nation. We are still considering those words. Because of the Freedom Charter's concept that the "people shall govern", we are here today, charting the way forward and addressing the imbalances of the past. [Applause.]
The former president of the ANC, president Luthuli, once said: "What would I do if I were prime minister?" He noted a lot of concepts and issues. One of those was the hot debate of the nationalisation of mines, the post offices, the banks, land. Hence, the debate today is critical. It is also relevant for us to check that the youth are at the forefront. How do we ensure that they participate in the mainstream economy of this country? We must ensure that the environment is conducive to this. Our government should also intervene with a holistic and inclusive approach. Those issues should be taken into cognisance.
The hon Tau articulated very clearly the issue of free education. It should be tangible. We should come up with the proper strategy going forward. Government has already embarked on that strategy. We should also come up with a proper timeframe and concept.
We must mention that one of our current barriers in society, when we check the epoch, is whose voices are being heard in the South African media. That is another challenge, as the youth will still understand it as being so eurocentric that it ends up polarising issues and shifting our focus. That is why you find that a lot of people are highlighting the wrong concepts. I'm still going to speak about that.
Let me mention specifically that the DA tends to polarise every debate, as if they come with a holistic and useful approach. Look at what happened in the Western Cape. Selective amnesia syndrome is embedded in their systems. They don't come up with concrete things that can address South Africans. In fact, I'm told that they don't even wear proper Bafana Bafana jerseys. They just procure theirs as if they were a federal country. We must address those issues as well. [Interjections.]
It is true, hon Chairperson, that Solomon Mahlangu said, "My blood will nourish the tree that will bear the fruits of freedom." Economic freedom in our lifetime should be visible. We must mention that all those things should be taken into cognisance.
Maybe today is the day on which we should make such a necessary assessment: Who are we as South Africans; as the youth of South Africa? Where do we come from? Where are we, and where are we likely to go in terms of the social pattern? Those concepts are the issues that should also be addressed.
Currently, if you talk about the problematic areas that should be addressed in South Africa, they must be named. The five priorities that our government is trying to address ...
Are you the Chair? If you are not, then you should look forward. I am addressing the Chair. [Interjections.]
Can I now talk to you, hon Watson?
He interjected me.
Hon Watson, can I then address you?
Chairperson, may I rise on a point of order?
Fine, what is the point of order?
Madam Chair, the member is misleading this House by accusing the Western Cape of making their own Bafana Bafana T-shirts that are not true Bafana Bafana shirts. But if that were true, then everybody in Parliament is also not wearing Bafana Bafana shirts because they all have Parliament's emblem on them. So, he must withdraw that. [Interjections.]
Hon Watson, do me a favour: Could you put that in black and white, because we might be given an answer as soon as it is possible to get one? Could you do that for me? Thank you. Continue, hon member.
Mr S A DUMA (KwaZulu-Natal): Hon Chairperson, we will not be scared of the debate. The issue of the ubuntu spirit, when one is coming to a conclusion, should be taken into cognisance as well. If we are saying that our youth should be at the forefront, let us ensure that in almost every component, such as employment, they are the ones taking decisions. This is because they form the majority, in any case, in South Africa.
If you are talking about the challenges that are facing youth in terms of education, they should be the designers. If you are talking about the issue of the economy, they should indeed be at the forefront, even coming up with the proper methodological aspects that are going to address the issues of South African society.
I must also mention in conclusion that a national democratic state and a national democratic society is our ideal vision that will ensure that we harness a proper society in South Africa. I agree that there are a lot of things that are slowly going to be addressed. Thank you so much. [Applause.]
Order! I now call the hon Mncube.
Madam Chair ...
Hon Bloem?
Before the hon member speaks, I just want to get clarity on the ruling that you have just given to Mr Watson, because he rose on a point of order to say that the member was misleading the House. Now you are saying that Mr Watson must write a letter; put it in black and white. That was a point of order, and you must only make a ruling on what Mr Watson said. That is why I am rising in this regard.
Hon Bloem, I have spoken to the hon Watson. I said what I did because we are running short of time, and I am going to talk to him after this. It is not for you to intervene. Thank you. Thank you, Mr Bloem. Do me a favour: could you sit down for now, because I have spoken to Mr Watson and I will deal with that issue.
No. Madam Chair, I rise on another point of order. I think I am very entitled to speak in this House. I am very entitled to do so. An amount of 1,3 million people voted for us and I am entitled to speak. [Applause.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela:) Hon Bloem, with due respect, I am not undermining you. This is a democratic country, but could you still, at the same time, listen to what other people are saying? Listen with understanding. Thank you. Continue, hon member.
Hon Chairperson, I am privileged to take part in this important debate, which commemorates 34 years since the 1976 Soweto uprisings. The debate today is made even more useful because it recognises the role that young people are accorded in our society. It pays homage to the sterling heroism, the sacrifices and selflessness of the youth of South Africa who made it possible for all of us to live in a strong and vibrant democracy.
Hon Sinclair, you may be in Cope, but your mind is still locked in the previous party, the National Party, and its principles and its policies. We may forgive you because Cope has no policies. We saw what happened last week at your policy conference. [Interjections.]
Chair, on a point of order: Is it proper for the hon member to lie to the House?
To?
... to mislead the House, hon Chairperson.
It is not.
Oh, it is not, because the hon member is misleading the House by saying that Cope doesn't have policies. Firstly, we had an election manifesto, and a very comprehensive set of policy documents was accepted. [Interjections.] I will give her a copy, which is much better than the policies of the ANC. Thank you. [Interjections.]
Okay, my ruling is that this is not correct, and it ends there. Continue, Mncube.
It is hypocrisy from the DA, hon Harris, to pretend to have the interests of the majority of unemployed youth, being Africans in particular, at heart on the issue of the youth wage subsidy. This is a narrow interest of a white capitalist supremacy, aimed at further exploiting the poorest of the poor. The wage subsidy getting to the labour brokers, which the hard ...
Chair ...
Sorry, hon Harris, I was still busy.
On a point of order, Chair, the hon member is implying - and misleading the House - I suspect, that the Finance Minister, on the policy of youth wage subsidy, is, I believe, narrow and a white supremacist. Either she believes that or she is misleading the House. Could you give a ruling on whether she is misleading the House?
Hon Harris, my understanding is that that is a response to the debate. Thank you. Continue, Mncube.
This is a narrow interest of the white capitalist bosses aimed at further exploiting the poorest of the poor. The wage subsidy that is being argued here will go to the labour brokers, whose existence they are defending wholeheartedly as they are pushing for its implementation now. [Interjections.] You are pushing it now. So don't be the mouthpiece of the working class and the poor.
Hon Inkosi and hon Gunda, the National Youth Development Agency is a multiparty agency at the highest decision-making level. All the parties are represented in the agency. Therefore, we should work together and champion the interests of the youth of South Africa and stop blaming the alliance.
Allow me, hon Chairperson, to pay homage to a fighter, a relentless organiser and an inspiring leader of the youth of our country: Comrade Peter Mokaba, who passed away on 9 June 2002. In five days' time the youth of our movement will commemorate eight years since the great leader of our national democratic revolution joined fearless ANC cadres such as Walter Sisulu, John Langalibalele Dube, Chief Albert Luthuli, Oliver Reginald Tambo, Moses Mabhida, Solomon Kalushi Mahlangu and many more.
I also pay homage to all the compatriots that supported our nation's fight against apartheid throughout the African continent and the world. All of them, through their determined struggles and efforts, ensured that South Africans today are able to say, with conviction, "We are free. We are free indeed."
As we celebrate this Youth Day, we continue to repeat the message that the nation expects the youth of today to follow in the footsteps of the 1976 youth and become agents of change, this time in the continuing struggle to achieve the goal of a better life for all our people. Indeed, all of us have the common responsibility to always recall the events of 1976, so that the bravery and sacrifices of that generation of young people continue to serve as an inspiration to work harder in our efforts and deeds towards a united, democratic, nonracial and nonsexist South Africa.
Whereas the youth of 1976 used their energies to mobilise and campaign against apartheid, the youth of today should use their talents to mobilise and campaign against crime and drugs. The young people of today, the young lions, must be at the forefront of the struggle to defeat violence against and the rape of women and children. The good role models amongst them, the best young lions, are those who get good results at all our educational institutions. The good role models amongst them must be those who work with the community to help the poor, who volunteer to help their neighbours, who give due respect to other members of the community, including the elderly and people with disabilities, and those who respect the values of ubuntu and good moral conduct.
Today, we are free because in the past young people made great sacrifices. This freedom has, in turn, brought about many opportunities. Accordingly, the youth should bear no excuses in their individual and collective efforts to put to good use all the many and varied opportunities brought by democracy.
Young people must do everything possible to ensure that they access the education and training opportunities that the youth of 1976 fought for with their lives. The youth today defends our nationhood and instils pride and patriotism among all young people for being South African and Africans. They must rise up to protect their communities, which are being ravaged by cowardly attacks on them by criminals and by disease. We would like to use this opportunity to appeal to all youth formations and all our social partners, namely labour, business and civil society, to join hands and act together, addressing the critically important matter of youth development and the empowerment of youth from economically disadvantaged communities.
In closing, in seven days' time our nation will host the 2010 Fifa World Cup. We want to say to all the youth of South Africa: Be defenders of our national symbols. Let us take this opportunity to ensure that our nation triumphs in its effort to implant hope and common identity in the hearts and minds of all its people, regardless of gender, sex, creed, colour and social status. I thank you. [Applause.]
Hon members, before I call the last speaker, I would like to clear the air. Let me remind you that a response to a debate cannot be said to be a point of order. Furthermore, any member who rises to respond to a debate under the pretext of a point of order will be ruled out of order. And before we close, after the last speaker I would like to comment on something very disturbing, that is happening in this House. Hon Tau, over to you. [Applause.]
Chairperson, let me take this opportunity to thank all members who participated in the debate. It was quite a youthful, honest and frank debate. They raised the challenges that young people are faced with in our country. I did not hear anybody say that it was not true that young people were the majority of the unemployed and the disadvantaged in South Africa. Young people are the majority of those who are faced with all the inequalities and illnesses that exist within society.
Whether we are political parties or we posture as them, we all agree that there is a sense of urgency to deal with problems that young people are facing. I may not necessarily respond to all the issues raised by each member, but it is important that we should not mislead ourselves when dealing with some of the challenges young people are facing.
I would like to thank the hon Mncube for raising the issue of the need for the establishment of the Youth Development Agency. All political parties and their youth structures converged and agreed that the two institutions, the Umsobomvu Youth Fund and the National Youth Commission, were not responding adequately to the challenges of young people. They are housed separately. Therefore, there is no relationship between those two particular institutions.
South African young people, including all political formations, agreed that they should merge the two institutions. This is so that when a young person goes to the NYDA, the NYDA should not say, "No, we are dealing with policy. You must go to the Umsobomvu Youth Fund." Then, when he or she goes to the Umsobomvu Youth Fund, they say, "No. We don't have the resources. We don't assist with this matter. You must go back to the previous institution." Let us bring all those institutions under one roof, as an elephant that can drive youth development in this country, slowly but decisively - like an elephant. And all political parties agreed to that.
I find it quite strange that the very same political parties are now critical of this elephant. They are highly critical of this particular elephant, which is hypocritical. At least if they were saying, "These are the challenges that the NYDA is faced with; and these are the things that we need to do to improve the functionality of the NYDA," I would have said, "Yes, that is probably an issue," but you cannot come here and be hypocritical and just shout down the NYDA.
Second to that, I found it quite strange because the DA youth formation was the first one to praise the formation of the National Youth Development Agency. Fortunately, I served in that ad hoc committee. When we interviewed for appointment to the board of the National Youth Development Agency, I was quite central to that. The DA youth was the first to hail the appointment of the National Youth Development Agency. Now today I am surprised that the Western Cape has its own youth development programmes - a country within a country. There are programmes that are geared towards addressing the challenges facing young people. But now the attitude that is being presented here is: We understand what you are doing in South Africa, but this is what we are doing in the Western Cape to advance youth development. Why aren't those programmes part of the National Youth Development Agency's programmes? Why didn't the Western Cape move faster in establishing offices of the National Youth Development Agency and therefore support those offices to advance the programmes of youth development in the country?
Sorry, hon Tau. Just a minute. Hon Harris?
Thanks, Deputy Chair. I am wondering if the hon Tau will take a question.
Yes.
When did any DA speaker today mention any youth development agency?
You see, he's not listening, because what I said was that instead of their saying, "This is what we are doing to advance the programmes of the National Youth Development Agency", they had instead their own separate programmes, which seek to negate or compete with what the country wants to do. That is also quite hypocritical. I think we need to speak against that as the ANC or as this particular House.
Hon Sinclair, I think you are also being disingenuous. When we deal with the philosophy of Verwoerd, of course I would agree with you that we cannot unlink the philosophy of Verwoerd from colonialism, but you must understand what I was trying to say earlier. I was characterising South Africa as conceptualised by Verwoerd in developing this kind of a state.
Not only was it about not teaching young people maths and science but it was about segregation and the establishment of Bantustans. I did not want to go there. [Applause.] It was also about putting the Africans in particular - I'll repeat it: it was about putting the Africans in particular - and blacks in general, who comprised Indians and coloureds, on the periphery of the economy through the homelands system. [Applause.] That was Verwoerd.
The theme itself refers to dismantling apartheid social relations. They are not even considering the theme in the debate today, because they don't know what it is that we are trying to deal with. We are trying to undo what the ANC in 1969 characterised as "colonialism of a special time". Through that we said: Yes, of course, the coloniser is not directly involved. The coloniser has left the territory. But within that boundary there is a minority that sees itself as superior to the majority and therefore disenfranchises them, oppresses them, unlinks them from the mainstream of the economy and so forth. Their lot was to be the suppliers of labour to the benefit of key industries, particularly the mines. [Interjections.]
That is exactly what we have been saying here. We need to understand the debate within that context, because, "through the colonialism of a special time", the social relations in South Africa were constructed. The debate was seeking to respond to how we undo that and move forward as a country. How do we undo that and move forward as a country - I didn't hear what you were saying about this as an hon member.
Of course, I am not surprised that the hon member decided to be so disingenuous without going into much history. Even his own professor - you would know him very well - Prof Andre Duvenhage, from the University of the North West, agreed with what the hon Mncube was saying in terms of the issue of Cope's policies - that there are no policies. His own professor! So I wonder if you are going to pass the thesis or the mini thesis if you submit it and speak like that. I see you failing.
Briefly, I think what we are trying to do here or what we are trying to address here as the NCOP is: How do we deal with this intergenerational, abject poverty that the young people of South Africa attract? How do we dislodge this intergenerational, abject poverty? It is a chain, and we need to find a way to break this particular chain.
In my presentation I avoided being ideological, although the DA tried to push a particular ideological economic front as a way of solving the problems of the young people of South Africa. This is because we are sitting with the problem of liberalism today. The problems that we are having today are the other problems of liberalism.
It is in that context that the President said: Yes, we have pronounced on this particular issue, but there are other views that are being projected out there, such as the issue of the two-tier labour system - whether labour brokerage won't create a two-tier labour system and all sorts of things. There is a sense of discomfort, and the President said that it was our responsibility, as the leadership, that if a section of the population was not happy about any pronouncement, we needed to listen and engage with that particular section. And that is exactly what the President said. He's saying, let's listen to ...
Hon member, conclude.
In conclusion, may I therefore say that yes, the responsibility of the transformation of this country is squarely in the hands of the young people. And it is for us as Members of Parliament, as public representatives, as political parties to assist these young people and not to play political games when it comes to the issues of young people. This is because, if we do that, we are in fact creating a time bomb and by the time it explodes, it will explode right in our faces as Members of Parliament or public representatives. Thank you very much, Chairperson. [Applause.]
Hon members, may I bring a point to your attention? We have staff members who can take messages from point A to point B. But what I have noticed happening today is people just crossing the line from one point to the other. That is not supposed to happen. Please, let us be exemplary. The NCOP is made up of very respectable and intelligent people. That concludes the debate.
Debate concluded.
Hon Sinclair? Hon Sinclair, there is no point of order that I am going to accept now. I have closed the debate, and the next session has to start.
Chairperson, you have raised a very serious issue. I just want to make an enquiry. You referred to members walking around. Are you indicating that there is floor-crossing happening? [Laughter.]
This is not the time for jokes. We are busy working. Thank you, hon Sinclair. This means that you don't even know that floor-crossing stopped long ago. Maybe you were out of the country.