Madam Deputy Speaker, can I just ask whether the Minister perhaps issued us with a copy of the statement?
No, hon member, the Minister is going to make the statement. There is no issuing of the statement.
But, according to the rules, if it was possible she could just present it to our members.
No, she did not.
Madam Deputy Speaker, for the benefit of the member of Cope there is a statement available and it can be photocopied and distributed as I speak. Thank you very much.
Madam Deputy Speaker, thank you very much for this opportunity. On 24 August 2010, the Speaker summoned me to his office to discuss the matter of the Report of the Interim National Defence Force Service Commission and he insisted both to me and to the Deputy President as the Leader of Government Business that the finalisation of the report should be done and it should be presented as speedily as possible. I gave my word, as did the Deputy President, that we would comply, and I am now able to confirm that after an initial extension of the period requested and granted to the commission, this morning I had the honour and privilege of receiving the Report of the Interim National Defence Force Service Commission.
It is important at this point to remind ourselves of the purpose or objective of this exercise, and perhaps the best place to start is at the beginning. The concept of the commission owes its existence to the policy intention of my first Budget Vote in 2009, dated 3 July 2009, in this Parliament. I stated at that point, and I quote:
... we are considering making a request for a separate dispensation for the Department of Defence that would allow us to creatively deal with our own needs and the specificities (and uniqueness) of the security requirements (of the Defence Force).
I emphasise this, as it is so often deliberately misinterpreted in some circles, fuelled by other corners of the House. The intention to establish the National Defence Force Service Commission was expressed long before the shameful conduct by a small group of ill-disciplined members of the Defence Force at the Union Buildings. It should be obvious, then, that we were alive to the challenge of addressing the concerns of the S A National Defence Force, SANDF, after years of the hon Lekota's being at its helm, a member here who stands up and pretends that he is perhaps new to these matters. These steps also preceded the whimper from some corners of the opposition benches. They bay and howl at the wind, for no other reason than to preen their wet wings.
The interim commission was established on 9 September 2009, after the Cabinet's approval of the creation of the new dispensation for the Defence Force. The brief of the Interim National Defence Force Service Commission was clear and well spelt out in the terms of reference that they were given. These were to:
1. advise and make recommendations on a unique service dispensation outside the ambit of the Public Service;
2. advise on the regulatory framework for the unique service dispensation; and
3. investigate and provide advice on remuneration and conditions of service of members of the SANDF.
The interim commission was advised to deal with these terms of reference both in the short term, that is, legislation, and in the long term, which is what we have today in the report. The commission dealt with these as three separate terms of reference. Each one is a standalone and very separate from the others. I introduced the commission to the portfolio committee, because the short term aspect, which was the drafting of legislation, needed some kind of co-operation with the portfolio committee.
I want to take this opportunity, therefore, to thank the members of the Interim National Defence Force Service Commission for the sterling work they have done. They have not only criss-crossed the length and breadth of this country, interviewing various stakeholders, but they have also found time to benchmark their work by visiting the United Kingdom, the United States of America, and the Russian Federation in order to learn from other countries the international best practice in a number of issues that have a bearing on us. I trust that in time we will benefit from the lessons and insights derived from these visits. They have done us proud in contributing to the effective and efficient management of the Defence Force as it fulfils its constitutional responsibility.
The work done by the interim commission is outstanding and I commend it. Could the hon member allow hon Groenewald to listen because he is an affected party? Their dedication and commitment are clearly shown by their hard work in producing the report that they handed over to me this morning. They gave of their time and energy, despite the fact that most of them were in full-time employment.
It is now my honour and privilege to acknowledge members of the interim commission and use the opportunity to thank them most sincerely for their hard work, commitment, tenacity and single-mindedness in the midst of the noise and attempts to divert them.
The interim commission consists of people of outstanding calibre who have brought a great deal of integrity to the work that they have done. It consists of men and women who have distinguished themselves in their own right in South African society. These members are Judge Bosielo, who is a Judge of the Supreme Court of Appeal; Mr Ismail, who is the Deputy Chairperson; Lieutenant General Moloi, otherwise known as Comrade A; retired Major General Bantu Holomisa whose exploits in the Transkei are very well-known to all of us; Ms Mgabadeli, who is unfortunately not with us here; returning to General Holomisa, we thought that perhaps he might be the best placed person to ensure that we are in the safe hands and the Defence Force does behave; Dr Mokgokong, who was the deputy chairperson of the commission that allowed a hike in our salaries as Members of Parliament; Professor Christie, a well-known Western Cape academic; Mr Ngcakani, the retired Inspector General of Intelligence; Bishop Mpumlwana, the Bishop of the African Episcopal Church, and hon Groenewald, whose attention I've been trying to obtain and who is possibly the longest serving member of the Defence Committee in this House. [Applause.] Thank you very much. I would like on their behalf to acknowledge your applause.
In their handing over of the report this morning, it was touching to hear them say that they did this and for them it was an honour to serve the country. They stressed that the report is the foundation of their observations and should be regarded as work still to be completed by the permanent commission.
Appointing members from such diverse backgrounds allowed us, for the first time in this dispensation, to have a bird's-eye view of the SANDF since 1994. The observations therefore span a period of 15 years. The importance of the commissioners is that they are drawn from disparate backgrounds; two of them are currently members of opposition political parties in this House, showing that the responsibility of the Defence Force cuts across political lines. There was a deliberate effort to include members of the opposition political parties on the interim commission to draw as wide a range of experience as was possible.
It must have been very hard for them to sit here as members of this House and listen to distortions of certain sections of what is purported to be their work, a deliberate distortion of their hard work. The SANDF is a national asset and these members understood that they could effectively contribute while in the opposition to ensuring that our sovereignty is in the hands of people who are looked after.
I would like to say to the Leader of the Opposition, hon Trollip, that when his member stands here to quote selectively on ongoing work in order to create an impression of "time bombs", which exist only in his imagination, then it begs the question where he was when all the changes were happening in the Defence Force. He quoted from a purported report of September last year and brought it here and pretended that he had just unearthed it, as something that was written yesterday. Where was he all this time when all these changes were taking place in the Defence Force?
Together with the interim commission, we worked tirelessly to ensure that there were changes. The most important fact that they established, and what must be established in this House, is that it is possible to be in the opposition to ensure that the governing party is accountable but to do it responsibly, especially when we are dealing with a national asset such as the Defence Force. [Applause.]
There are always two choices in life, hon Trollip: you are either part of change or you are working against it. Your member has chosen not to be part of the change but to work against the change. The immense improvements that have occurred in the Defence Force were very ably articulated the other day by the hon Minister Pandor. Next time, instead, of spending his time in newsrooms and feeding the press, perhaps your hon member will be in the House so that he understands and is part of the change. What it has done to him right now, hon Trollip, is that he has defined himself outside the changes that have occurred in the Defence Force. In fact, if I had been in his position, I would have made sure that I claimed credit for the changes that have taken place in the Defence Force. But, very clearly now, for all of South Africa to know, he was sleeping right through these changes as they happened.
The report will now undergo the normal process of being submitted to Cabinet - I've made a request to the President to make sure that it can serve in Cabinet at the earliest possible time. Then it will be handed over to the Speaker of the National Assembly. As I have stated before, Parliament will have an opportunity to read the recommendations emanating from this report. I commend the report.
I would, finally, like to thank those members of the portfolio committee who co-operated with the commission. I'd like to thank the members of the SANDF who made the work of the commission possible. I'd like to thank the Chief of the Defence Force, who made it possible for us to get this report today. Hon Deputy Speaker, thank you very much for this opportunity. [Applause.]
Speaker, I was not furnished with a copy of the Minister's statement and for that reason it is difficult to provide a comprehensive response to the announcement in Parliament this afternoon.
However, let me begin by welcoming the announcement made by the hon Minister of Defence and Military Veterans that she has now received a copy of the final report of the Interim National Defence Force Service Commission, and that the report will be fast-tracked through Cabinet and tabled in Parliament at the earliest opportunity. This, I am sure all members of the House will agree, is very welcome news indeed.
I would like to thank Judge Ronnie Bosielo, who headed up the commission, as well as all members of the commission, for their hard work in preparing the final report of the Interim National Defence Force Service Commission.
We also owe a special debt of gratitude to our colleagues, the hon Bantu Holomisa, the hon Hlengiwe Mgabadeli and the hon Pieter Groenewald, who were members of the commission, for their contribution to the final report of the Interim National Defence Force Service Commission. I hope that when we look back, the work of the commission will be a turning point in the history of our Defence Force.
Speaker, the events surrounding the Interim National Defence Force Service Commission triggered an almost unprecedented political battle between the executive and the legislature. Today's announcement goes some way, I believe, toward digging the hon Minister out of the parliamentary quagmire she finds herself bogged down in.
But the whole question of the interim reports of the Interim National Defence Force Service Commission remains. One of the many reasons why the Minister refused to make the interim reports available was that there was no link between the interim reports and the Defence Amendment Bill. But the fact is that there is a link between the interim reports and the Defence Amendment Bill.
The primary objective of the Defence Amendment Bill was to establish a permanent National Defence Force Service Commission. And what does one find when one reads the interim reports? One finds that the interim reports themselves recommend the establishment of a permanent National Defence Force Service Commission; several pages of the interim reports are devoted to recommendations covering the appointment, terms of reference, functions, staffing, and reporting responsibilities of the National Defence Force Service Commission. [Interjections.]
Am I allowed to put a point of order?
Do you have a point of order, ma'am?
Yes.
Hon member, will you sit down please? There is a point of order.
Deputy Speaker, on a point of order: The hon member is not allowed to mislead Parliament. The commission was accepted by Cabinet. It has nothing to do with what you are talking about. That is for the record. Cabinet accepted it in August.
Madam Chair, on a point of order: This is not a point of order.
Continue, hon member.
And what does one find when one reads these interim reports? This is the clincher! One finds that the interim report itself contains the Defence Amendment Bill.
At some point the hon Minister is going to have to explain how it is that an interim report, which contains a Draft Defence Amendment Bill, is not linked to the Defence Amendment Bill? In my view, the hon Minister owes this House an apology - and I choose my words carefully - for not providing all the relevant information to this House. I thank you. [Applause.]
Mohlomphegi Motlat?a Seboledi sa Ngwako, go bolela nnete re a thaba lehono go kwa dipoelo ka bokopana go t?wa go Sehlophat?homo se se dirilego mmereko. Seo ke nyakago go se laet?a ke se, bengbaka. Go na le mangwalo a mararo ao ke a swerego. Lengwalo le lengwe ke la Tona, le lengwe ke la Seboledi gomme le lengwe ke la Bapela. Lengwalo la Tona ga le kwane le la Seboledi. Mo lengwalong la gagwe, Tona o laedit?e gore Molaokakanywa wa Pheto?o le Lekgotlat?homo ga di amane. O laedit?e gape gore o be a re kgopet?e gore re tle re thu?ane, fela a lemoga gore ga re na bokgoni. Bjale, go bolela nnete Tona o t?ea ke maikutlo. Rena re le maloko a ANC a photefolio komiti re be re kwana ka dikgopolo. Yo a bego a re swari?it?e bothata kudu ke Tona.
Go ya ka polelo yeo e bolelwago ke mohlomphegi wa DA, Seboledi se nt?hit?e lengwalo la go re fetola. Seboledi se laedit?e gore ka di31 t?a Agostose 2010, Tona o tii?it?e gore pego le Molaokakanywa wa Pheto?o ga di amane. Bjale, go laet?a gore di a amana, ke rena ba re bolela ka t?ona.
Rena re le ba Cope re re Tona o swanet?e go lemoga gore Kgoro ya t?a T?hirelet?o le Bagale ba Se?ole ga se ya gagwe a le no?i, eup?a ke ya rena kamoka ga rena. Re na le maikarabelo go yona kamoka ga rena.
Tona o swanet?e go ithuta gore a se t?ee ke maikutlo. Ge ke be ke na le sebaka, ke be ke tla bala lengwalo le, bengbaka; o a lwa. Gape re duma gore Tona a lemoge gabotse gore ... [T?hwahlelo.] [Nako e fedile.] (Translation of Sepedi speech follows.)
[Mr L J TOLO: Hon Deputy Speaker, we are glad to hear a brief report from the members of the interim commission. I have three letters with me and they are from the Minister of Defence and Military Veterans, the Speaker and the hon Bapela. The contents of the letter from the Minister do not correspond with the contents of the letter from the Speaker. The Minister indicated in her letter that there is no link between the reports of the interim commission and the Defence Amendment Bill. She further indicated that she wanted us to work together but we could not. We shared the same ideas as ANC members in the portfolio committee. The Minister was the only one who disagreed.
According to the hon member from the DA, the Speaker indicated in his letter that on 31 August 2010, the Minister made it clear that there is no link between the reports of the interim commission and the Defence Amendment Bill. But there is a link between them, hence we are now deliberating on them.
The members of Cope want to make the Minister aware that the Department of Defence and Military Veterans does not belong to her alone but to all of us. We are all responsible for it.
The Minister has to learn to be co-operative. I would read this letter if I had enough time; she denies the link. We want the Minister to be aware that ... [Interjections.] [Time expired.]]
Sekela Somlomo neNdlu ehloniphekile, okokuqala, kufuneka ngithokoze ukuthi umhlonishwa uNgqongqoshe, ukwazile ukuthi azoma lapha azokhuluma ngombiko esingakawucoshi. Kodwa ngoba useshilo ukuthi sizowucosha umbiko ngoba usawudlulisele kuMongameli. Ngiyethemba ukuthi sizowucosha masishane.
Okwesibili, lo mbiko sekukhulunywe kakhulu ngawo, kube kukhuluma abantu abangakaze bawubone. Mina angikaze ngawubona-ke, angifuni ukukhuluma ngento engingakaze ngiyibone.[Ihlombe.] Manje mhlawumbe Somlomo bekungakuhle ukuthi ngelinye ilanga sike sixoxe ngalo mbiko uma sengiwubonile nami, ngoba lokukhuluma lokhu sekwenze ukuthi kube khona umugqa phakathi kukaKhongolose nabe-DA [Uhleko.] bese kuba ngathithi abaphakathi nendawo bakhuluma ngoba bengazi ukuthi bafuna ukuthini.
Kanti okuseqinisweni kukhona la kuthiwa ngokomthetho ungakhulumi ngento ongazange uyibone. Manje bengicela Somlomo, ukuthi lo mbiko njengoba uzothulwa la namhlanje, kusewumlomo nje kaNgqongqoshe. Siyawufuna umbiko uzothulwa ngokusemthethweni ukuze sikwazi ukuxoxa ngawo sesiwufundile. Kulapho-ke la sizokhuluma khona. Angithokoze.[Ihlombe.] (Translation of isiZulu speech follows.)
[Mr V B NLDOVU: Deputy Speaker and this august House, firstly, I am grateful that the hon Minister managed to come here and speak about the report we have not received yet. But because she said we will be getting the report, as she had forwarded it to the President, I believe we will receive it soon.
Secondly, a lot has been said about this report by the people who have not seen it. I have not seen it; I do not want to talk about something that I have not seen. [Applause.] Speaker, it might be better for us to debate this report some other time once we have received it, because these talks have caused a division between the ANC and the DA [Laughter.] which makes those who are in between look like they do not know what they want to say.
In actual fact, by law one should not talk about something one did not see. My request, Speaker, is that since this report is going to be verbally delivered here today by the Minister, we want the report to be formally delivered so that we can debate it after we have read it. Then we can talk. Thank you. [Applause.]]
Deputy Speaker, hon Minister and hon members, it was a privilege to have been invited to render my free services to the interim commission. A special word of thanks goes to my fellow commissioners, and our chairperson Judge Bosielo in particular, for his leadership in the past year. May this report, when it is tabled here, serve as the basis upon which to build a turnaround strategy for the S A National Defence Force, SANDF to restore its image and dignity. This will allow the SANDF to recapture lost ground.
Finally, once this report is adopted, one envisions a process of the Department of Defence, DoD, holding a bosberaad to discuss the report. Out of that we hope that there will be a clear action plan determining who will do what and according to what deadlines. I thank you. [Applause.]
Agb Adjunkspeaker, die agb Tolo van Cope is korrek as hy s dat die Suid-Afrikaanse Nasionale Weermag aan ons almal behoort. Dit is ook uit daardie perspektief dat my party besluit het om my beskikbaar te stel om op hierdie kommissie te dien.
Ek wil vir die agb Minister bedank. Ek dink ons kon 'n bydrae maak. Ek wil die Huis verseker dat hierdie verslag 'n objektiewe verslag is, sonder vooroordeel en dit is ook 'n kritiese verslag wat in belang is van al ons lede in die Suid-Afrikaanse Nasionale Weermag.
Ek wil ook van hierdie geleentheid gebruik maak om die voorsitter, regter Bosielo, te bedank en ook vir al die ander kommissielede. Dit was 'n voorreg om saam met hulle op so 'n kommissie te dien en om op te tree in belang van ons mense. Ek wil vir die agb Minister en die Kabinet s, as u hierdie verslag aanvaar soos hy is en die aanbevelings in die praktyk deurvoer, sal ons 'n professionele en 'n baie beter Suid-Afrikaanse Nasionale Weermag h. Ek dank u. (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)
[Mr P J GROENEWALD: Hon Deputy Speaker, the hon Tolo of Cope is correct when he says that the South African National Defence Force belongs to all of us. It is also from this perspective that my party decided to release me to serve on this commission.
I would like to thank the hon Minister. I am of the opinion that we were able to make a contribution. I would like to assure the House that this report is an objective report, without prejudice and that it is also a critical report that is to the benefit of all our members in the South African National Defence Force.
I would also like to use this opportunity to thank the chairperson, Judge Bosielo, and all the other members of the commission as well. It was a privilege to serve on such a commission with them and to be able to act in the interests of our people. I would like to say to the hon Minister and the Cabinet, should you accept this report as it stands and carry through the recommendations in practice we would have a professional and a much improved South African National Defence Force. Thank you.]
Deputy Speaker, in Azapo's book soldiers do not go on strike or take part in industrial action. If they do, we call it mutiny. The country was shocked to see what some members of the Defence Force did at the Union Buildings. Many people, including the Minister, condemned them and called them names.
As Azapo we know that some of those soldiers previously served in the armed forces of the different components of the liberation movement. They did so without pay and at great risk to personal security and life. They sacrificed their youth and life because of their love for their people and country. They are not greedy or ill-disciplined. They are desperate. They cannot make ends meet. They must be paid living wages and their working conditions must be improved. We owe it to them.
It is our hope and prayer that this report will help us to address the needs of our armed forces so that we can restore their dignity. Thank you very much. [Applause.]
Madam Deputy Speaker and hon Minister, the ACDP welcomes the report of the interim commission and we look forward to further engaging with the specific findings and recommendations of this report.
It is, however, significant, as the hon Minister has pointed out, that this commission was intended before the ill-disciplined and unruly action of certain members when they demonstrated outside the Union Buildings. Such persons, we must emphasise, can claim no credit for today's report. We need to make that very clear. The responsibility of the national defence force must cut across party- political lines. This is clearly illustrated by the fact that members of the opposition served on the commission and we as an opposition party will also contribute as we consider the recommendations of this report. We trust that the recommendations will address the frustrations of serving members concerning benefits, and living and working conditions, and will serve to prevent the further loss of skilled personnel so that we can have a professional SA National Defence Force. I thank you.
Deputy Speaker, I would like to thank the hon Minister for being able to come back to Parliament and make a presentation on this thorny issue. I must say in earnest that we are floundering in the information that is being thrown around, which is actually a thumb-suck. Sometimes this hurts and demoralises the soldiers, and we don't understand where the report has come from.
In the portfolio committee we were very emphatic that the report had to come through the Ministry, and the Ministry would then present it to Cabinet, and it would come to Parliament. We have never been able to conceptualise how that type of report comes as it does. When it came to our attention that there was a report that was being thrown around in the streets that was when it came to our portfolio committee. That was when unions were saying that there was a report.
Nobody knows the essence and contents of the report. The Speaker directed us, saying that there was no link between the Bill that we had to prepare and what was in the report. He was the only person in Parliament who could give us the confidence in the work that we were doing. We thank the Speaker sincerely for being able to give us direction.
The manner in which you played opposition politics and narrated your stories has nothing to do with the portfolio committee. At no stage did we commit ourselves to what the opposition member always said and explained in the papers, saying that there was a report. In terms of our regulations, performance and how we did our work in the portfolio committee, at no stage did we ever find that link.
You were correct when you said it was a misleading act to come to Parliament and tell us that there was a report, when nothing was ever presented officially to the institution of Parliament. It would be quite a disaster for us as a portfolio committee to say that that report was ever placed. It has always been about gossip and rumours. I can honestly say that none of the rumours and the gossip were correct.
As I stand here on behalf of the portfolio committee to thank the Interim National Defence Force Service Commission for the work that they have done, they and nobody else have ever been able to place the report. Today we have stood again for matters of principle and the following of procedure, that they will come to the institution and present it. They have to come and tell us what is happening.
We have not played at the level of gossip and rumours that have been spread around in regard to the issue. As the portfolio committee, at this particular moment, without listening, narrating and playing to enthusiasms about what the opposition leader said, we feel that the matter stands firm that there is no report. I vouch for what I am saying, and I stand by the oaths that I have taken in Parliament, that there is no report. You will be misleading Parliament by coming to claim that there is a report that has been placed somewhere. It has been rumours.
We told the South African National Defence Union, Sandu, to present the report that they had to us. However, the report that they had was gained by theft. We are saying to the union that the report they had was gained by theft. The portfolio committee agreed that the union had stolen the report from somewhere but it did not know where. As a matter of fact, that is what the records of our portfolio committee say: The union went and stole that report. Who they got it from and what the contents of that report are has never been deliberated before the portfolio committee. Again, it would be misleading to say that that report has ever been presented. Under my leadership, according to my knowledge, no report has ever been presented to the portfolio committee.
It is really misleading to Parliament when an hon member claims things - and tries to lead by all his activities and dancing - that there were links. We have finished the Bill and nobody has ever been able to prove the link and show us what was happening.
Let me thank the interim commission for the good work that they have done, and the commitment that they have shown in the way they have conducted themselves. The members have been able to stick to the mandate that they have been provided with. The level of transparency with which you have conducted this particular development, Minister, has been very valuable. You were the first one to come to Parliament and introduce the mixture of the opposition, our party and different people who would be able to take this responsibility. You have done very well and have been able to keep us informed.
If those members had gone against the discipline that you provided them with when dealing with issues of confidentiality, I must say that hon Holomisa, hon Groenewald and even hon Ntsiki were not able to break that form of discipline. We must really thank them for the way they conducted themselves. Even in times when we were very pressured and we feel that there was the responsibility of trying to confide and tell us what was going on in the report itself, they maintained that discipline. Hon members, we really want to thank you. You have done a very good job. From your own experience you have heard us telling you in the committee that you have had a variety of experiences which have been able to make their way into the report itself. Therefore, we would like to thank you very much.
You know, hon Holomisa, if I can repeat what I said to you at some stage when I met you, your experience is very valuable. Nobody can tell us that you have never gone through building up a defence. We have also told hon Groenewald that his experience has added a lot of value to the report that has come out.
I must say, Minister, we have heard members speaking today and we have had a reflection of the navy from them. People from the navy know it better and are able to tell you the truth about it, show it as in a mirror. One of our members has been trained there. They would have a better understanding of how a navy functions. We have heard a very good presentation from the landward section today. There is the issue of the combat-readiness which never suffices. Those members who are there and are committed to our country have today been able to stand firm and explain to hon members about the conduct and the challenges that the SA National Defence Force, SANDF, is facing in regard to its landward, air force and maritime areas.
Tomorrow we are taking an observation from the Air Force and one from Health. Both sectors and components have an influence on the combat- readiness of the SANDF. They have been able to present to us, unambiguously, the progress that has been made within the SANDF. I thought that hon members would appreciate that type of development because it speaks to our patriotism and how we should conduct ourselves, based on the information regarding the institution which has been provided.
Again, we would like to thank General Door for the way he conducted himself and also the Admiral for being able to give the navy a proper report on how we can look at the institution again. There is a lot of progress that has been made. We are quite confident that the improvements that we have put in place and the commission itself will be able to improve the conduct of the