Speaker, the question is about the recent strikes and whether a "no work, no pay" rule will be enforced. The answer is that the "no work, no pay" rule is a policy of government and is administered by the Minister for the Public Service and Administration. We are aware that the Minister will implement the policy through Treasury. It, therefore, is not dependent upon me; it is government policy. It will be implemented.
To answer the question of whether the strike has had any effect on departments, I should say yes. Indeed, it has affected the national and provincial departments in different ways. In some provinces we had an 80% shutdown, while in others we had a 20% shutdown; so it did affect them, but the situation differed from province to province. In areas where there was a total semishutdown of the head offices and no operations could take place, the districts had to operate from somewhere and this resulted in valuable school days being lost.
The national department only closed the section which deals with matric certificates; all other sections were working. We closed that section deliberately because we did not want to risk anybody interfering with the matric certificates. Thank you.
Mr Speaker, apart from the South African Democratic Teachers' Union's, opposition to "no work, no pay", that union continues to hold education hostage through intimidation.
I want to read you five points from a statement by a teacher at Johannesburg's Northview High School, after Sadtu representatives Tshabalala and Mokgomane addressed the staff yesterday afternoon:
Now, Sadtu said principals of model C schools deliberately employ foreigners, namely Zimbabweans, because they will not strike. They said Sadtu will deal with Zimbabweans. No district officials are to be allowed onto school property, certainly not to check files.
Staff are not accountable to officials. If the Northview principal is not in agreement, Sadtu will come and take over the running of the school. Teachers have only to do seven hours of work. For any work over and above that they should be paid extra. Everyone is to give full marks to themselves for the Integrated Quality Management System and the heads of department, must sign, otherwise Sadtu will deal with them.
Will the Minister investigate this and all other cases of Sadtu intimidation, and how and when will these incidents be investigated? Thank you.
Chairperson, let me just direct myself to the question and not to the other stories, because I have not heard about them.
We investigate any complaint referred to us. So bring the complaint and we will investigate it as soon we get it. I can't work on the basis of rumours or things that I hear from the air. Bring that complaint; we will investigate it. Definitely! [Applause.]
Chairperson, I would like to ask the hon Minister whether she will please give us her opinion of Sadtu and their behaviour during the strike, as it is quite clear that Sadtu is responsible for the violence and intimidation that has done so much to worsen the impact of the strike. I would like to refer once again to the letter that was read by my colleague, outlining what has happened at Northview. Thank you.
Chair, the member wants my personal opinion of Sadtu. My personal opinion is that Sadtu is a strong organisation. We have the advantage of having very strong organisations in the public sector. Communication moves quickly, so there are strong points around it. So from where I stand, I do appreciate all teacher organisations, including Sadtu, the role they play and the co-operation we get from them on an ongoing basis. I appreciate Naptosa and all of them because we do have very constructive working relationships. So that is my answer to the question.
However, when it comes to violence by strikers - not necessarily Sadtu, by anybody - we condemn it. I have condemned it. I will condemn it from Sadtu and from Naptosa, so I don't have to say that I condemn Sadtu. I condemn all violent acts in the public sector.
But you want to know what I think about Sadtu? Like all other unions, Sadtu plays a valuable role in the Public Service. [Applause.]
Chairperson, Madam Minister, there have, however, been reports that some individuals within the department have been engaging in activities to destroy records that reflect the attendance of workers during the strike. In the light of these reports, clearly some delays can be expected with regard to the issue of the docking of pay.
Are the Minister and the department able to give an assurance to this House that the docking of pay will not be delayed beyond the end of this year? Thank you.
Chair, salaries are being docked every time we get the information. We have been informed by the Public Service that, to date, 26 000 members have already had their salaries docked. So it does not have to wait for anything.
As soon as information is completed it is finalised and then the docking starts. So it will start when the documents have been gleaned and verified and we are sure that we are docking from the right person for the right days. The docking starts any time. It has already started.
Chairperson, on a point of order: I note that it is at the discretion of the Chairperson to select speakers. But can I say that, based on the convention of the House and how we have been doing things, you cannot allow three members of the DA to ask questions on the same question and not give other parties an opportunity. Can we request that you give other parties an opportunity?
Hon member, I am aware of the convention. I was simply following the list because I was not in at that time. I am following the list which is in front of me. The next one on my list is hon A M Motshekga. [Interjections.]
Chairperson, I think the point that is being made is that the DA has already been afforded two opportunities on this particular question, and if you would kindly cast your eyes around the House, you will see various members waving their papers ...
The hon A M Mpontshane.
Mr Chairman, on a point of order: You have already recognised hon Smiles. I don't understand how you can go back on your ruling.
I know, but if he had taken the opportunity first, then I think we need to be fair to other members.
Mr Chairman, with due respect, you have recognised hon Smiles.
I did, and I also recognised my mistake. Could you take your seat, hon member? There are more questions coming.
Mr Chairman, we did not think that you had made a mistake; we were actually applauding your decision! [Laughter.]
Chairperson, during the recent talks which the hon Minister had with teacher union representatives, the unions linked the policy of "no work, no pay" to the department's recovery plan. In other words, teachers' willingness to teach during the September holidays was conditional. Either they get overtime payment for the time worked over the holidays, or the department offsets the overtime payments which unions want against deductions for "no work, no pay". What is the position in this regard?
Chairperson, babuMpontshane, that was the initial issue that we suspected unions wanted - that the recovery plan was to recover their salaries, whereas for us the recovery plan was about the recovery of lost time.
I did meet with them. We agreed that the recovery plan is going to be informed by the needs. We agreed at national level that for the September holidays, for instance, we will only focus on matriculants because that is where we think there is an urgent need. We will not have a decision from the national level to have a recovery plan from Grade R to Grade 12. The recovery plan is informed by what our needs are.
We will then look at what we need in the primary phases. We have agreed that we want to focus on numeracy and literacy. Therefore we will only employ teachers on the basis of those needs and in an attempt to close the deficit.
So, in short, I am saying we have clarified the situation and I think there is a common understanding that the recovery plan is going to be based on and informed by needs. It is not going to be informed by teachers' need to get their salaries back. I had a meeting with the MECs and I think we have a common understanding that the two things should be delinked.
Position regarding (i) monitoring of schools during recent strike and (ii) incidents of physical violence and arrests
219. Mr D A Kganare (Cope) asked the Minister of Basic Education:
Whether, in the course of the recent strike, her department continuously monitored all schools to ensure that both the learners and non-striking educators remained safe; if not, why not; if so, (a) how many incidents of physical violence were reported and (b) how many culprits were arrested? NO3143E
Chairperson, the question is whether we continuously monitored the safety of learners during the strike; and the answer is yes, indeed. The department, working quite closely with the Department of Police, intelligence, army and all the related departments, even justice, were constantly monitoring the schools. So, government had set up a national strike council and there were also provincial strike councils.
There was a joint operation as well as provincial operations both at national and provincial level, which worked together with the Department of Defence, National Intelligence and the SAPS. They did gather information of where areas were volatile and sent in forces to ensure that those areas that were not safe would be reported. In addition, there was also monitoring on the functionality of schools with particular emphasis on attendance and safety.
The questioner also wanted to know as to what were the incidents that were reported in the information received by the department. Because information on violence was collected by the police most of the information lies with the Department of Police.
All what we did was to report where we knew there were threats and the police would deal with those matters. This is incomplete, because most of the information lies with the police.
In the Western Cape we did get a report that there was an incident of violence. We also got a report from North West that there were incidents of violence, but I am aware that there were more incidents of intimidation and violence. The information on all of those were collected by the police because they were treated as criminal activities and therefore the department would not have been involved in areas where there was violence and intimidation. Those were treated as criminal activities and the police are dealing with those matters.
Hon Minister, let me appeal to you not to press the button there, because you are making my work difficult here. I will call upon you when you answer the supplementary question, otherwise leave the button alone. Is there any supplementary question?
Thank you, Chairperson. Hon Minister, it is a well-known fact that when there is industrial action the labour movement will do everything within its power to put pressure on the employer to make sure that its demands are met. And this will, amongst other things, result in some intimidation.
On the other hand, it is a responsibility of the employers to make sure that productivity continues and that they take certain precautionary measures. Freedom of association by implication entails the right not to associate, so my question is what proactive measures did the department take to ensure that those who did not want to go on strike are allowed to go to work so that they do not get punished by not being paid when they did want to go to work?
Chairperson, hon Kganare, we announced that we had not closed the schools, so we did imply that anybody who wanted to go to work should go to work.
Schools were not closed. People who wanted to go to school would have been able to go to school, but in incidents where we picked up violence, where members felt that they were unable to risk their lives, there were measures put in place to enable them to report and work with the districts for purposes of safety.
So, we did all we could and the schools were open. That is why schools that were not threatened by serious violence were able to continue. And those that were unable to continue because there were incidents that made them felt unsafe therefore did not attend school.
They did communicate with the district, that would then make sure from the police that it was indeed not viable for them to attend schools. So, there were measures put in place to do exactly what you understand was supposed to have happened.
Chairperson, in some cases, Minister, the acts of intimidation and that of physical violence were reported and in some cases it was reported within the school premises. So, I think from this strike action we have learned some lessons - that in some of our schools we need to intensify the security. What plans do you have in your department to make sure that all our schools are safe and that the security is being intensified so that we can be sure that schools are places of safety?
Chairperson, the question of school safety is a broader issue than the strike. I think the hon member would be quite aware that on an ongoing basis, as a department, we are incrementally increasing security in our schools to make sure that we protect our learners both from internal and external threats.
We fence schools, put up CCTV cameras and take all sorts of necessary measures that we require to make sure that indeed schools are safe. The fact that there were strikes again was an internal security matter, and again we did put measures in place. However, they are not necessarily for strikes, which are a rare occurrence.
I mean, the last time we had strikes was in 2007, but the security is meant to protect them on a daily basis. And we do have a programme of schools safety, as I say, both against physical harm and other forms of activities that may harm our learners and teachers. We have a programme.
Chairperson, it may come as a measure of relief to the hon Nzimande that this is the first occasion that I have the honour to address Minister Motshekga as the Minister of Basic Education as the official opposition spokesperson on basic education.
The question that I would like to ask is whether the department, through the various vehicles that she has, including Minmec, would provide resources to schools to provide for counselling for individuals who were intimidated and harmed during the strike?
I visited a school this morning, as a matter of fact, in Durban, Lindelani, and there were clear indications that many individuals were harmed during the strike. Therefore, I believe that it is the responsibility of her department to see to it that measures be taken to provide resources for counselling for them.
Chairperson, the question of the wellbeing of teachers definitely falls squarely within the provincial competencies. My assumption is that indeed provinces - because every province has a section dealing with the wellness of educators and the employees in the provinces - through their wellness programme should be able to provide the counselling services.
It is a function which is definitely a provincial competence, but if we are requested to do it as national I am sure we can look at it. But it is something for which we have no structures on behalf of provinces because the wellbeing of teachers is catered for by provinces that would have a wellness programme for staff in the national departments. So this is a provincial competency and I assume that all provinces do have that programme.
Position regarding steps to (i) ensure that FET colleges attract more students and (ii) change perceptions regarding inferior qualifications
204. Mrs F F Mushwana (ANC) asked the Minister of Higher Education and Training:
What steps will he take to (a) ensure that the further education and training (FET) colleges attract more students and (b) change the perception that they offer inferior qualifications?