My apologies again, Minister.
Thank you, Chairperson. Do you have the hon Ellis's approval for me to answer the question at this stage?
Chairman, the only reason why we asked the hon Manuel to wait until a bit later was to make sure that he was here at the end of Question Time today, and it worked very well indeed. [Laughter.]
Thank you very much, Chair, and thanks again to the hon Trollip for the question.
As I started saying before I was so rudely interrupted, South Africa does not have a fixed definition of "decent work", but we have, for the purposes of evaluation by the National Planning Commission, used the International Labour Organisation, ILO's, definition, which reads:
Decent work has been defined by the ILO and endorsed by the international community as being productive work for women and men in conditions of freedom, equity, security and human dignity. Decent work involves opportunities for work that is productive and delivers a fair income; provides security in the workplace and social protection for workers and their families; offers better prospects for personal development and encourages social integration; gives people the freedom to express their concerns, to organise and to participate in decisions that affect their lives; and guarantees equal opportunities and equal treatment for all.
We built this into the vision statement because it is aspirational, it's about 2030, and we believe that it will be in the interests of all South Africans, and all of South Africa certainly, to have people in decent work.
I think we recognise at the same time that there is an imperative in regard to jobs. Not all jobs, to start with, will comply with all of the criteria set out in the ILO definition. However, as skills improve, as productivity improves and as the economy grows, there will be a lot more certainty, and as you proceed you can measure performance against that. I think that's the kind of perspective that we have taken in the National Planning Commission, both in the diagnosis and in respect of the elements of the vision statement. Thank you very much, Chairperson.
Hon Chairperson, I expected a better response from the Minister and I was wanting to say that it was worth waiting all this time for his response!
The main body of my question was about actual job creation, after the diagnostic review of the National Planning Commission. I endorse the fact that the aspirational objective of the government to create decent work is something that will first start with the creation of jobs, which will then become decent.
The National Planning Commission has identified education and employment as the most pressing national challenges facing this country. In the light of the current debate with regard to South Africa's high levels of unemployment and a backlog in achieving the job creation targets, do you, Minister, support Finance Minister Pravin Gordhan's admission that South Africa's restrictive labour laws need to be relaxed in order for the rate of job creation to be accelerated?
Chairperson, I want to repeat what the diagnostic document broadly states, that one of the key challenges in South Africa is that there are too few South Africans in employment. Employment in the age cohort 18 to 60 stands at 41%, while our peer group countries tend to have an employment rate at around the two- thirds mark. So there are too few pay packets and the market is too small. Inequality is a direct consequence of that.
We are also saying that there is a causal relationship between poor educational outcomes and the rate of labour absorption. These issues must be fixed. And so, the ability to have everybody in decent employment is also a consequence of the transformation of the education system. But you cannot wait for the next generation. These issues must be dealt with, and they must be dealt with sensitively.
It is very important that as a nation we recognise what impediments obtain and work through them. We should not mount high horses that we then cannot dismount later. I think the obligation is to offer all families an opportunity to participate in the economy and to raise their living standards, and that's an agreement we must strike. It's going to be essential that we are able to set these as benchmarks and build off a platform.
We cannot try and construct obstacles to employment creation. That is because we are seeing, at the same time, that the economy is becoming less and less competitive globally, and our manufacturing sector is bleeding at the moment. We have not been able to recover the million jobs lost in 2008- 09. That impact is felt, not by the ideologues, but in the lives of people, and it is for that that we as South Africans must put our shoulders to the wheel. Thank you.
Thank you very much, Chairperson. Hon Minister, as part of the National Planning Commission's forward planning - I mean, "Planning" is what they are called, so there is forward planning - do you believe that they should investigate what is stated in subsection (3) here, namely that they should "investigate a labour regime of decreasing labour market regulations"? Thank you.
You know, part of what we must avoid is deepening the chasms. At the moment there are issues that separate us. On Monday this week the Minister of Finance spoke about the issue and asked that we have an open mind. By this morning, the public broadcaster had committed the After 8 Debate to this kind of issue, so we are actually deepening the chasm. It's unhelpful. It's unhelpful, and I'm saying that the impact is felt in the lives of the poor and unemployed. That is a measure, and that's where, as Joe Stiglitz said, you actually begin to see and feel the lack of self-esteem.
There is nothing worse than for families not to have an income. That's the challenge. Leave aside everything else. The key issue that we must get our heads around is how we will respond to that challenge as a nation. If that is the approach, I think we have a starting point.
If we try to construct a divide, then I think we take collective responsibility for weakening the economy, but more importantly, for weakening the ability of poor families to get out of that deep, deep trough of poverty, and intergenerational poverty especially. Thank you.
Thank you, Chairperson. Minister, I don't think anyone in this House would disagree with your definition and the explanation of what we need to do as a country. The question, however, was: Do you agree with Minister Gordhan's assertion that we will have to look at restrictive labour legislation if we are to create more jobs in the economy?
I have looked at the full text of Minister Gordhan's speech and, as with so many other issues in the country, that is one little snippet of a wider speech. I think, all of what he said is a position that I would endorse wholeheartedly. We must have nothing stand in the way of job creation in this country. Thank you. [Applause.]
Chair, was my reply worth waiting for? I need to check with the hon Trollip. [Interjections.]
See also QUESTIONS AND REPLIES.