Speaker, hon members, we took a conscious decision to establish a Performance Monitoring and Evaluation department in the Presidency. We further decided to go beyond receiving reports from departments and to undertake hands-on visits to assess the delivery on our five priorities and other programmes of government.
To date we have undertaken four formal monitoring visits, focusing on government's five priorities; twice to the Eastern Cape and to Limpopo and the Free State.
We visited Mdantsane Township and Peddie in the Eastern Cape to assess the state of education. We were convinced that the national government's decision to work with the province directly, in order to turn the situation around, was the correct one. We are now working closely together to revitalise education in that province.
The second Eastern Cape visit focused on boosting job creation in the automotive sector in Port Elizabeth, assessing service delivery and revitalising Mthatha in the King Sabata Dalindyebo, KSD, Municipality. The KSD Municipality is a Special Presidential Project. In this regard we will continue to work closely with the province to improve the quality of life there.
Last month we visited Qwaqwa in the Free State to assess rural development. We were impressed with some of the good work that has already been done, although residents also indicated various areas of improvement.
In July we visited the Vhembe district in Limpopo for health care assessment, and undertook to improve service through the building of a new hospital. In Lebowakgomo, also in Limpopo, we were impressed to see a model hospital which can serve as a standard for most government hospitals.
We have also sent teams of officials from the Performance Monitoring and Evaluation department to check on service delivery frustrations and solutions in Umzimkhulu in KwaZulu-Natal, Burgersdal in Gauteng, Balfour in Mpumalanga and other areas. Principally, the issues which have been raised by residents in most areas include water, electricity, housing, health, schools, clinics, policing, unemployment and other infrastructure.
The major challenges include poor co-ordination between spheres of government, frustrations with the long and complex processes of obtaining assistance from government, as well as a lack of resources.
The launch of the Presidential Infrastructure Co-ordinating Commission on 8 September 2011 is meant partly to help us deal with these infrastructure challenges. We are satisfied that enough is being done to build a better life in the areas visited. Thank you, Speaker. [Applause.]
Ndiyabulela Somlomo. Mongameli ohloniphekileyo, ndiyabulela ngempendulo nengcaciso ethe gabalala. [Thank you, hon Speaker. Hon President, thank you for your comprehensive response.]
In the light of the fact that any government prides itself on the quality of its service, as quality and attitude are its major service differentials, another element is to further ensure that it keeps up with the constantly changing environment within which it operates through regular interaction with both parties and citizens.
Sithi ke singamalungu ale Ndlu ehloniphekileyo, ingakumbi awe-ANC, siyabubulela ubunkokheli bakho nesigqeba sakho nokuqinisekisa ukuba ... [As the members of this august House, particularly members of the ANC, we appreciate your leadership and that of your Cabinet, and for making sure that ...]
... in order for the government to stay afloat and sustainable, it maintains close monitoring and ensures that quality services are delivered to its citizens. However, the intergovernmental co-ordination inefficiencies and resources seem to be a challenge.
Therefore, knowing that the critical success factor in any development is collaboration, what measures will you undertake to strengthen or foster compliance to that effect and ensure that the delivery ...
Hon member, your time has expired.
... agreements that are signed are sustained.
Hon member, your time has expired.
Thank you. [Applause.]
Speaker, we are certainly doing everything we can to ensure that we strengthen co-ordination between the spheres of government, and to also check how departments are working to ensure that delivery is done timeously. So, we are doing everything we can to ensure that government operates optimally.
Mr Speaker, hon President, we take note of the President's recent visit to the Eastern Cape. We thank you for your prompt response to our calls, sir, when we requested your office to prioritise the eastern part of the Eastern Cape's collapsing infrastructure.
Given the high rate of accidents on the road between East London and Mthatha, and Mthatha and Kokstad, would it not be possible for the government to come up with strategies to ease the congestion on the N2 by incorporating these areas into Transnet's current project of upgrading the country's railway system? If such a plan was to be approved, it would save the government money on maintenance costs of the road in question.
Speaker, yes, that problem is known to government. There are plans, firstly, to address the issue of the road, the Garden Route, and those plans are in place to deal with the problems in the Eastern Cape. These plans will not only deal with congestion, but will also assist with economic development in order to open up the Eastern Cape as part of changing the economic landscape of the Eastern Cape.
In the pipeline there are also discussions about the railway line, which will also add to the opening up of the Eastern Cape route, particularly between Durban and Cape Town and, of course, Port Elizabeth, East London and other cities in between. We believe this plan will certainly address the concern that the hon member has raised. [Applause.]
Speaker, Mr President, we applaud your ad hoc visits to these areas; we think it is a very good thing and you should keep it up. I'm very pleased to hear that you are fully aware that the lack of co-ordination between the different spheres is partially, in many instances, largely responsible for service delivery failures.
In your response you indicated that you have a Presidential Infrastructure Co-ordinating Commission that is doing some good work and you also mentioned stronger oversight over the line-function departments. However, I wonder whether that is actually sufficient and whether government should not be doing more to ensure co-ordination on the ground.
Secondly, Mr President, can you give us an indication of specific examples of where this closer co-ordination is actually working. Could you give us concrete examples of where interventions of that nature have led to improved service delivery? Thank you.
I am happy that the hon member appreciates that work is being done. As I've said lack of co-ordination at times is a problem and we are attending to it. I think there are many examples that have demonstrated that co-ordination works.
In a number of areas that we have gone to - the areas I have mentioned, for example, the Eastern Cape - we have done a number of things. One of the critical points that we have been dealing with in the Eastern Cape is education, and we now have a joint committee that has been put in place to address that problem and it is working very well. That is one area that we can identify. There are many other areas where our working together is showing success.
In your question you also asked what else can be done. Besides what we are doing, we have discussed these matters in the meetings that we hold regularly with premiers and the SA Local Government Association, Salga, where we discuss co-ordination in a number of areas.
As the hon member is keenly observing these matters, if he has some proposals to make, I will certainly be ready to receive them.
Mr President, amid growing evidence that officials deployed by central government to fix ailing municipalities are not succeeding, and following a report that four officials sent to lead collapsed municipalities in the North West have only succeeded in making things worse, would you not agree that the local government turnaround strategy is not succeeding in improving delivery and that part of the reason for that is that the wrong people are being sent to sort out the mess?
Hon Speaker... [Interjections.] They are making me laugh. [Laughter.]
I won't deduct that from your time, hon President, but continue.
Well, the turnaround strategy was investigated and it certainly remains the answer. The question may be how it is being implemented. I think there have been some delays in implementing it, but we still believe it is the answer.
Just yesterday I had a discussion with the Minister for Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs on that particular issue to ensure that we are dealing with that matter. Of course, as you would know, there was a period when the Minister who was there to implement that turnaround strategy was not necessarily in operation. We now have a Minister and that's why we had the discussion yesterday, focusing specifically on the turnaround strategy. It is now going to be implemented with more vigour.
With regard to the issue of whether or not the wrong people are being sent, unfortunately the hon member was not giving specific municipalities. The statement he is making is very general. That the officials have gone to areas and some of them have not succeeded, is a rather generalised question and it is not very specific. I wouldn't know the individuals whom he is talking about. If he was saying so-and-so was sent here and this is what happened, I would be in a better position to answer the question.
Inquiry into alleged illegal interception of communications
14. The Leader of the Opposition (DA) asked the President of the Republic:
Whether he intends to appoint a judicial commission of inquiry into the state agencies' alleged illegal interception of communications (details furnished); if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details? NO3988E
Speaker and hon members, I do not at present intend to appoint a judicial commission of inquiry into the alleged illegal interception of communications by state agencies. Our current legislation, in particular the Regulation of Interception of Communications and Provision of Communication-related Information Act and the Intelligence Services Oversight Act, provide adequate safeguards regarding any alleged illegal interception of communications.
The laws provide adequately for effectively dealing with complaints of the abuse of power regarding illegal interception of communications. In addition, any person who is aggrieved by the decision of the designated judge to issue a direction may approach the courts for an appropriate remedy.
As such, any individual alleging any illegal activities must exhaust the remedies provided for in our legislation.
Speaker, the DA is disappointed that the President has declined to establish an independent commission of inquiry into phone hacking. We are also surprised, because we have been reliably informed that the Ministry of Justice and Constitutional Development has already begun work on the terms of reference for such a commission.
In 2008 the DA leader, Helen Zille, met with then Intelligence Minister Ronnie Kasrils after it became clear to her that her phone had been illegally tapped. Mr Kasrils memorably told her that, although there had been no formal instruction to intercept her communications, he could not guarantee that it was not taking place informally.
It turned out that the informal interceptions were not the work of rogue private investigators. In fact, a police officer overcome by her conscience contacted her to say that an intelligence nerve centre in Bishop Lavis was the place where tapes of her telephone conversations were being analysed and gave her details of these conversations to prove it.
In addition, a Mail & Guardian expos has shown that illegal phone hacking is being carried out by state security agencies, and it confirms what we have suspected for some time: Government agents are abusing their power to spy on individuals without permission from a judge, as required by law. Mr Speaker, will the President tell us what happened to the plans to establish a commission of inquiry? Has it been shelved? If so, what are the reasons? Thank you very much. [Applause.]
Speaker, I am equally disappointed that the opposition has not exhausted all legal routes. [Applause.] The hon member is telling me the history of what happened when there was once a Minister named Ronnie Kasrils. He is no longer here. [Interjections.] He discussed some matters with the Leader of the Opposition, but I was not there.
The allegation or request that is being made is that we should establish a commission of inquiry, and I am saying that there are legal routes to be undertaken. Exhaust them and then, if you say that you have exhausted all the legal avenues and ask for a commission, I will understand.
You said we mustn't go to court!
Order! Order, hon members!
Thank you, hon member. [Applause.]
Speaker and, indeed, Mr President, you are here now. Against that background, as you referred to adequate safeguards, one of the safeguards in the law and the Constitution is the power of this august body to exercise oversight. I say this because I have asked the Minister of State Security whether the telephones, computers and other means of communication of any of the members of this House are being intercepted.
I was not allowed to ask the question by the parliamentary officers. After one year of struggle, that question has not yet been put to your Minister.
You are the President, and the entire executive authority is vested in you, so I would like to ask you today whether it is an acceptable policy for your government to intercept the communication of any of the members of the House. Can you give a guarantee to all of us that none of our computers, none of our telephones and none of our communications are the subject of interference, interception or surveillance to determine what we do, what we think and how we conduct our politics? Thank you, Mr President. [Applause.]
Speaker, I certainly will guarantee that the telephone, cell phone, computer, iPad, or whatever, of any member of this House should not be interfered with. [Interjections.]
Order!
No, it is not. That is what I am saying. It must not be interfered with. In absolutely no way should we allow that as a country. If the security agencies have information about anyone, irrespective of the position, and that there is something wrong, they apply to a designated judge. That is the only route, and no other route can be allowed.
Now, once the judge is satisfied that there is something wrong with a citizen, irrespective of whether he is a Member of Parliament or whatever, then the judge grants the permission. That is the only route. I will never allow anyone to just decide to intercept the communications of anyone. That is, in fact, infringing the law. [Applause.]
Mr President, I am not one of the more paranoid members of the House, so I am not going to ask about my own communications. I think, Mr President, the issue is not really only about whether the government is doing this, because I take you at your word. I believe there is a policy and there is a procedure, but there is a problem with private people, both through connections in the state - people acting illegally - and then also using their own technology and resources.
To my mind, the issue is not simply a question of saying that the government is to blame. I think there is a broader issue about the environment in which we live. The lighter side of it is that members of your own Cabinet believe that there are honey traps being set for them. [Laughter.] Political leaders claim that they are being investigated, even suspended ones, now. [Laughter.] There is a lighter side to this, but I think underneath it is a very serious issue about what the capacity is that exists in our country for this kind of monitoring. Does the government have a handle on it? I take you at your word, but I think that it would do the citizens a great deal of good and provide comfort to some of your colleagues for them to know that, in fact, they are in good hands, Mr President.
Speaker, of course, the question was about what is alleged, that being that state agencies are intercepting communications. That is what I was answering. The issue of the private companies is the matter which I think the hon member was referring to.
The only thing is that he was putting it in the wrong place. That is the matter that the Minister of Justice and Constitutional Development is looking at and, once he concludes that, we will then deal with the matter, since they are not allowed to do so.
You might have to look at the remedies, once the matter is concluded. How do we stop either individuals or private companies from doing so? Citizens must be protected. [Applause.]
Speaker and Mr President, I like the way in which you educate those who are not familiar with the processes. [Interjections.] It is very difficult when you don't know the processes and become paranoid because of these interception perceptions. [Interjections.]
Hon President, you are correct when you condemn unlawful interception of communications. That is correct; you made it clear that you condemn that. Hon President, as you are also well aware and as you have indicated, the Regulation of Interception of Communications and Provision of Communication- related Information Act, and particularly section 49, provides that a person who intentionally and unlawfully intercepts communications is guilty of an offence.
Why are you doing it, then?
Section 51 of that same Act says ...
We also agree with the Act!
... that if you are found guilty, you are subject to a fine of R2 million or a period of imprisonment not exceeding 10 years. Does the hon President have knowledge of any widespread abuse regarding unlawful interceptions? [Interjections.]
Does the hon President consider the penalties in the Regulation of Interception of Communications and Provision of Communication-related Information Act to be adequate as a method of deterrence? [Applause.]
Speaker, of course, I don't have any knowledge of such activities. As I said, the Minister of Justice and Constitutional Development is looking at the matter of the private interceptors who have come before him. I don't have the details of it.
Certainly, I think that we took the decision very wisely on the punishment that you have just read for those who infringe the law. Such people, if they commit a crime, must be punished, so I agree with what is stipulated in the law. [Applause.]
Government and AU's support for reconstruction, peace and reconciliation in Libya
15. Mrs L S Chikunga (ANC) asked the President of the Republic:
How do the Government and the African Union intend to assist and support the reconstruction, peace and reconciliation process in Libya?