Speaker, hon members, South Africa was active in the support and drafting of the AU roadmap for the resolution of the Libyan crisis and the subsequent proposals to the Libyan parties for a framework agreement on a political solution to the crisis in Libya.
We have also been actively engaged with both the erstwhile Libyan government and the National Transitional Council in finding a peaceful resolution to the crisis. We believe the AU roadmap still provides the best way forward toward peace and normality in Libya.
The elements of the roadmap include the immediate cessation of hostilities, facilitation of the delivery of humanitarian assistance, the protection of foreign and African migrant workers, the establishment and management of an inclusive transitional period and the adoption and implementation of political reforms to meet the aspirations of the Libyan people for democracy, justice, peace and security. These elements are in line with the AU Postconflict Reconstruction and Development Policy.
At the 297th meeting of the AU Peace and Security Council, PSC, the AU reiterated its deep concern with regard to the proliferation of weapons and their impact on regional security and stability. In this regard it was proposed that a regional conference be convened to facilitate regional co- ordination and co-operation.
The PSC also urged the Libyan authorities to ensure the safety and security of African migrant workers and to hold a pledging conference to mobilise resources for the socioeconomic reintegration of migrant workers into their countries of origin. The PSC also authorised the chairperson of the commission to establish an AU liaison office in Tripoli, to be headed by a special representative.
This office will work with the United Nations, the League of Arab States and other stakeholders to stabilise Libya, to promote national reconciliation and inclusivity as well as to facilitate the transitional process towards democratic institutions.
South Africa has its own unique contribution to make. Our experience in reconciliation, as well as the integration of the armed forces following the transition to its democratic dispensation, could be relevant in the current postconflict phase in Libya.
In addition, the governance configuration in the Great Socialist People's Libyan Arab Jamahiriya did not foster a culture of democracy and respect for human rights and the rule of law. Greater effort will be needed to support the establishment of the requisite democratic institutions, legal frameworks and reconciliatory mechanisms.
South Africa stands ready to assist in any way possible so that Libya can return to normalcy. I thank you.
Hon Speaker, let me thank the President for the elaborate answer to our question. President, how is the AU and South Africa, in particular, hoping to support the National Transitional Council, NTC, in helping Libya in the democratic process, in general, and inclusive government, in particular, going forward?
Speaker, the AU and South Africa, which is part of the AU, have been working very hard on the Libyan question. We have had a lot of meetings as well as work done as the ad hoc committee, which consists of five heads of states who headed the activities with regard to Libya. We also looked at the AU's own policies and positions. For example, given the history of the continent, any country's regime that brought about change through military means will not be recognised by the AU.
In discussing the question of the Libyan problem, given the fact that Libya, historically, in the last 41 or 42 years did not have these constitutional institutions and no constitution at all, except what read here, we felt, as the AU, that we should be flexible.
We should be flexible so that those people in Libya who asked for change and therefore later became the NTC and now are the ones who are establishing inclusive government, will be allowed by the AU to occupy the seat of Libya in the AU so that they participate in the processes of reconstruction in Libya.
That is what the AU has done. In other words, the AU has a very clear position about how to deal with countries that come into authority through military means. However, in this case, because of the unique situation of Libya, the AU decided, as one of the steps to help, that Libya should be part of us and work with us to ensure that we move forward.
We are even more concerned now, because the way in which the Libyan situation has been dealt with has created a situation in Libya that not only affects the citizens of that country, but the entire region. Many countries like Mali, Chad, Niger or Mauritania are affected.
Many people have been walking into these countries well-armed. So we are talking about the Libyan situation that has undermined the regional security. That is a big concern for the AU. We will therefore do everything we can to ensure that we work with the Libyans to solve their problems as quickly as possible and help them to establish proper democratic institutions so that there can be a legitimate government in Libya. [Applause.]
Speaker, Mr President, there were media reports that South African mercenaries had tried to extract the late Muammar Gaddafi from Libya. How do you think this country can win the confidence of the National Transitional Council as an honest contributor to reconciliation in that country? Secondly, it is also understood that there are considerable Libyan assets in this country that had been frozen by this government. Will this government now unfreeze these assets as a contribution to the reconstruction of Libya? Is the President in a position to tell us how much these assets are worth, the value of these assets?
Speaker, the hon member says there were allegations or rumours with regard to mercenaries. I am not sure whether I should give a rumoured answer on the rumours. [Laughter.] You are asking me to comment on rumours. I am not sure whether that will be helpful. If there are rumours or untested allegations then they remain rumours. Therefore I will certainly treat them as rumours.
With regard to issues of Libya's assets, certainly this country followed the decision of the United Nations when that decision was taken. I don't know what the value of the assets is. Certainly, once the UN takes the decision that they must be released, then I am sure this country will follow what the UN says. That will be our position.
Speaker, Mr President, you are a politician and you know that it is often not easy for a politician to say that you have answered me. So I'm going to check. Colonel Gaddafi and a few of his countrymen shared the dream of Pan-Africanism. It is now clear from the latest events in Libya that the political and economic ties or loyalties will certainly lie with the countries of the north, particularly those whose forces are serving in the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation, Nato, and to an extent in the Warsaw Pact.
What specific African virtues and ties bind South Africa and the AU to the nascent regime in Libya? You may have answered that, but I am checking.
Speaker, hon member, you want to give a politician's answer. I want to start where you started, which is that Gaddafi had a dream of Pan-Africanism. As you know, Gaddafi's regime came into power during the days of coups on the continent. There were no rules like the rules we have today, so people would come in and declare their policies, like Gaddafi did. As much as he dreamed of Pan-Africanism, the fact of the matter remains, as I have just described here, that it was something that was just Libya, Jamahiriya, not Pan-Africanism or anything.
As you know, he came in through the coups, he replaced a king through a coup d'tat but he called it a revolution and he continued to say that there had been a revolution in Libya.
Certainly, over the period when he was part of the AU, he said whatever everybody did about standing for Pan-Africanism. I don't think we perused the details of each country or how it was dealing with its policies. As you have heard when I was reading, it was as a socialist kind of thing. You know that at one time it was African socialism - heads of states have said things in the past.
As far as that is concerned, I don't know if I can give certainty as to what type of Pan-Africanism Gadaffi stood for, as many others espouse this kind of policy. These are the debates that have gone on for decades in an attempt to clarify what we mean by this.
Coming back to your question about the Nato countries. I think Africa is faced with a serious problem, as was reflected in Libya where, whilst we are on this continent, countries outside of this continent moved in and continuously bombarded the country for months on end and they did not even listen to the continental organisation when it was saying, "Here is a roadmap". That, I think, poses a challenge. Everybody is clear that the approach between us and those across the Mediterranean is not the same.
I think in the coming joint session of the EU, in particular, and the AU we will have to discuss this matter. How do we relate to the two continents, given the recent experience of Libya? I am sure when the AU meets in January for its annual summit these matters will be discussed. How does one handle this experience and how does one relate to members of Nato? I am sure that the matter will be discussed.
Speaker, Mr President, thank you for your answer. Following the reply, the problem of the reconstruction of Libya and of peace is still going to be very hard. A hard road lies ahead.
We have read much about the joint letter between the US, UK and France, about their interest in the Libyan question. I want to ask a question in relation to the reconstruction. I know that South Africa said they were outmanoeuvred with the resolution in 1973.
The question is: When you engage with them in the forums, maybe at a UN meeting, are they prepared to put resources into the reconstruction of Libya, particularly those forces that had an interest in Gadaffi's permanent removal? What would they say when you engage with them about the real reconstruction of Libya, going forward?
THE PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Speaker, firstly, just to correct the speaker on the other point. South Africa was not outmanoeuvred. There was an abuse of the UN Security Council Resolution of 1973. [Applause.] South Africa was not outmanoeuvred. I just want to correct that. If that is the impression, it is a wrong impression. Big forces abused a resolution that was very clear.
With regard to reconstruction, they are certainly very keen to ensure the reconstruction. I think there was specific interest from the countries that got involved in Libya. Of course, they said that Libya had sufficient funds. The funds they are talking about are the funds the hon member asked to be released, the funds that were frozen. They believe that they have sufficient funds that could be used for the reconstruction.
I cannot give details on what else will happen because there has been a bombardment that devastated cities and there certainly will be a lot of activities to reconstruct. I am sure that the people who were bombing will be the same people who will participate in the reconstruction.
The Libyan money which was frozen will be used. If there are any shortages they will follow the usual procedures that countries do to ensure that they get the money. They say that Libya has enough resources to reconstruct itself. Thank you.
South Africans to desist from xenophobic attitudes
16. Mr J B Sibanyoni (ANC) asked the President of the Republic:
What steps does the government intend to take to ensure that South Africans (a) appreciate the hospitality that was afforded our exiles in the past and (b) desist from xenophobic attitudes towards people from neighbouring countries? NO4030E
Hon members, the former president of the ANC, Comrade Oliver Tambo, uttered the following words in Luanda, Angola, in 1977 at the Congress of the People's Movement for the Liberation of Angola - Labour Party, MPLA - and I quote:
We seek to live in peace with our neighbours and the peoples of the world in conditions of equality, mutual respect and equal advantage.
This is what should guide our relations with foreign nationals, especially those from the African continent. Racism, racial discrimination and related intolerance are in conflict with our Constitution and human rights culture and should be eradicated in all their forms.
In addition, South Africans were recipients of friendship, solidarity and support by the peoples of Africa and the world. The South African government therefore understands international solidarity perfectly well. Foreign nationals have lived among South Africans for decades in conditions of peace and friendship.
The new antiforeigner sentiment in some communities is fuelled by a number of factors. Amongst these are poverty, income inequality and joblessness. It also entails competition for scarce resources such as housing and basic services. There is also a high percentage of unemployment among the youth, which gives rise to vulnerability and negative influences.
Ineffective implementation of municipal bylaws regulating informal trading has also been cited as a problem, which has led to competition for trading space. There are also criminals who hide behind the screen of antiforeigner sentiments. We are attending to all these underlying causes.
Last year we established an Inter-Ministerial Committee, IMC, chaired by the Minister of Police, to deal with the matter. They developed a plan that the government is implementing. An important intervention is to mainstream civic education in society and promote awareness about foreign nationals and the fact that not all of them are illegal immigrants. There are also foreign nationals who are in our country as refugees fleeing conflict in their countries.
The government has systems of providing assistance to them in a humane and caring manner. We acknowledge that many of them contribute immensely to economic growth in our country. They bring skills and add to the cosmopolitan atmosphere that any progressive country in the world needs.
We welcome the involvement of Chapter 9 institutions, for example, the South African Human Rights Commission, in helping us to deal with this challenge. The commission sent government its report and recommendations on what government departments should do following the tragic 2008 attacks. The IMC will be meeting later this month to review progress, including what has been done to implement the Human Rights Commission's recommendations.
Most importantly, government cannot effectively deal with this challenge alone. We invite all sectors to become part of the campaign to build a caring society.
Somlomo nawe Mongameli, ngokuqalisa ehlathululweni yakho endabeni emraro omkhulu kangaka, ngithokoza indlela ohlathulule ngayo ehle kangaka begodu ikarisa kwamambala. Indaba yama-nonnationals nama-nationals imraro orara abantu khulu. Akhe ngidzubhule: (Translation of isiNdebele paragraph follows.)
[Mr J B SIBANYONI: Hon Speaker and hon President, thank you for your explanation on the matter of such a huge challenge. Your explanation was so clear. The issue of non-nationals and nationals is a great challenge that also puzzles our elders. Let me quote:]
The ANC is against all forms of discrimination, be it against nationals or non-nationals, in the form of xenophobia; hence in the 2007 national conference, the ANC resolved that the ANC structures must take a lead in fighting xenophobic practises and ensure the integration of refugees in society. As we celebrate the centenary of the existence of the ANC in 2012, we should thank all the foreign countries, especially our neighbouring countries, for having pledged solidarity with us in times of the struggle and hosting our struggle stalwarts when they were forced by the oppressive regime to seek refuge.
Alo-ke Mongameli, bengikubawa amezwi wakho wokuthi thina njengabajameli bomphakathi - ama-public representatives - sibotitjhere nabafundisi singenza bunjani ukuphelisa ukuninwa kwamaphandle?
Nomzana Mongameli wenarha, kufanele Lunga eliHloniphekileko bonyana njengabajameli belizwe leli bona siragele phambili ngokutjhumayela ivangeli lokuthanda amaphandle. Asibaphatheni kuhle singabanini ngombana nabo basiphatha kuhle. Kusifiso sethu bonyana lokhu okwatjhiwo yihlangano ephetheko ebe itjhumayela boke abantu bonyana bajoyine, babambisane kufezeke. Kade sihlala nabo abantu laba. Sihlale nabantu abavela eendaweni ezihlukahlukeneko. Begodu sinobuhlobo nabo godu babakhwenyana. Kezinye iindawo nathi sibakhwenyana babo. Akuphathwaneni kuhle kwakhiwe ubuhlobo. Nange singenza njalo sizabe silwisana nezinto ezinengi ngombana sizabe sitjhumayela ubunye ngaphandle kokuninana ngobuzwe nanyana ngobuhlanga. Asirageleni phambili senze njalo.
Mina ngingathaba khulu nangabe iNdlu yesiBethamthetho le ingabetha ifengwana yebumbano netjhebiswano enarheni le, ikhumbuze abantu bonyana kufanele sibaphathe kuhle abosozizwe, ama-Afrika neenhlobo zethu. Siyathokoza. [Iwahlo.] (Translation of isiNdebele paragraphs follows.)
[Hon President, I am appealing to you. You asked how we, public representatives, as educators and ministers in our communities, can end xenophobia?
Hon President of our nation, it is true that, as leaders of the nation, we should preach the gospel of loving our foreign nationals. Let us love and care for them as they did to us. This was the teaching of the ruling party when it recruited people to join it; indeed it was a successful joint effort.
It is a long time that we have been living with these people. We have been living with people from all walks of life. Our relationship with them has made some of them our sons-in law. In other places we are also their sons- in law. Let us love and care for each other and solidify our relationship. In doing that, we will be preaching oneness and will stop hating each other, irrespective of nationality or country of origin. Let us continue to do so.
I will be very happy if this National Assembly can blow the whistle for unity and remind people that we should care for foreign nationals, Africans and our relatives. Thank you. [Applause.]]
Somlomo, mhlonishwa Mongameli, angizukukhuluma ngabakhwenyana.[Uhleko.] Angikhulumi futhi ngalaba abasemthethweni, ngikhuluma ngalaba abahamba ngaphansi kocingo abangafanele ukuba lapha futhi okubonakala laphaya kwezinye izindawo kuthiwa bathatha izindlu zabanye abantu. Lobudlelwane okhuluma ngabo othi buholwa nguNyambose, ikomidi eliholwa nguNgqongqoshe WamaPhoyisa lifinyelela nini kulaba ukuze bakwazi ukuphindela kubo? Phela ngoba kukhona abakithi nathi abaswele abangaphakathi okudingeka bakwazi ukucosha lokhu kwalapha eNingizimu Afrika.
UMONGAMELI WERIPHABHULIKHI YASENINGIZIMU AFRIKA: Somlomo, ngibonga ilungu elihloniphekile lesishayamthetho, lokhu engikhulume ngakho okuzobhekwa ngqo yikomidi eliphethwe nguNyambose, libhekene kanye nabo labo abahubuluza ngaphansi kocingo, abangekho emthethweni. Yibona labo esifuna ukuba sithole indlela ukuthi labo bantu uma betholakala babuyiselwe emakubo, hhayi ukuthi kuzobe kuqalwa yinto esiyenza ngqo ukuthi uma betholakala bayathathwa babuyiselwe emakubo. Sinendawo lapho ba gcinwa khona ukuthi uma sebetholakele bagcinwe khona bese beyagoduswa.
Sikhuluma ngalabo esithi kufanele ukuthi ingalo yomthetho ifikelele kubona. Uma sekutholakele umuntu kuyaye kutholakale ukuthi njengoba echushe phansi kocingo ukusiphi isimo na. Nabo labo abachusha phansi kocingo bakhona abachusha ngoba bexoshwa yisimo sezombangazwe emazweni abo. Siphoqelelwa ngumthetho kazwelonke ukuthi abanjalo singababuyiseli emuva, sibanikeze ilungelo lokuthi bavikeleke njengababaleki ababalekele ezombusazwe noma ngabe bahubuluze ngaphansi kocingo. Phela uma ngabe umuntu ebaleka kwelakubo ngoba kukubi, isinyathela amasimba abantwana[Uhleko.]akakwazi ukuthi abeseyocela futhi kuye lowo hulumeni i-passport yokuhamba. Ngeke akwazi ukuyithola,uyangena ahubuluze. Kulowo msebenzi esimthola ukuthi ungena nje engenaso isizathu lowo simbuyisela emuva.
Leli komidi njengoba sengishilo lizohlangana libuke umbiko lo oye walethwa kuhulumeni ezinye izakhiwo bese lenza izinhlelo zokuthi lizoqhuba kanjani ukusebenza nokuthi lilwisane nalokhu. Okuyinkinga njengoba usho sekuyezwakala ukuthi abanye babo bathatha izindlu zona lezi okufanele ngabe zithathwa yilabo abantulayo abalapha ngaphakathi. Yikho konke lokho-ke okuzobhekwa bese kuyalungiswa, lungu elihloniphekile. Ngiyabonga, Somlomo. [Ihlombe.] (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)
[Mr V B NDLOVU: Hon Speaker, hon President, I am not going to talk about sons-in-law. [Laughter.] I am also not talking about the legal ones. I am talking about the ones who crawl under the fence who are not supposed to be here - the ones who are said to be occupying other people's houses in certain areas. This co-operation you are talking about, that is said to be led by Nyambose, when will this committee that is led by the Minister of Police get to these people so that they can go back home? Because there are some of our people, who are also poor, who have to have a stake in what belongs to South Africa.
Hon Speaker, I thank the hon Member of Parliament. What I am talking about is what will be directly dealt with by the committee that is led by Nyambose - it deals directly with those who crawl under the fence, the ones who are illegal immigrants. We are seeking ways to deal with them; once they are found, it does not mean that we deport them immediately. We have a place where we keep them and when the time is right, we then deport them.
We are talking about those the arm of the law should reach. When someone is found, we investigate the situation which forced them to crawl under the fence. And even amongst those who crawl under the fence, there are those who are fleeing from conflicts in their countries. We are forced by the international law not to deport those who are in that situation, but to give them protection as refugees, even if they had crawled under the fence. You know when individuals flee from a conflict in their country, they are caught between a rock and hard place ... [Laughter.] ... because they cannot go to the same government to ask for a passport for travelling. They won't be able to get it, hence they will crawl under the fence. If the committee finds that they have crawled under the fence without any reason, we then deport them.
As I have already said, this committee will meet to look at the report that was brought to the government by other structures and will then make plans of what to do to fight this. The problem is what you have talked about - that we understand that they are now occupying houses that are meant for our poor people. These are issues that would be looked at and be corrected, hon member. Thank you, hon Speaker. [Applause.]]
Speaker, we are all saddened by the senseless xenophobic attacks on foreign nationals in our country. During the struggle against apartheid, thousands of South Africans were given refuge all over the world, particularly on the African continent.
They were given job opportunities and access to schools and universities as well as proper medical care when they required it. They were not accused of being the source of the problems that their countries were experiencing.
Hon President, while I accept that it is our collective responsibility to ensure that we educate our members about how to treat foreign nationals among us, does the government have any specific programme or plan in place to educate our people that besides respecting the rights of the foreign nationals we need to learn to reciprocate?
Speaker, in what I have said, I have mentioned that we need to talk, and we have been talking about it to conscientise our people about what happened to us when we were also refugees and freedom fighters in other countries. It is important - there is also the international rule and law - that when people come under difficult conditions they must be cared for, and that is what we are saying.
Whatever we do, we cannot allow a situation where there is an antiforeigner attitude. It is not correct. That is why I am saying, hon member, that we should - all of us here, collectively as Parliament - give leadership to educate the nation on that matter in addition to whatever has been done.
I am certain that Parliament itself could work out a programme that could be used and be powerful if it is led by the representatives of the people in this country, who were elected and who are here in Parliament. Certainly, this must be a challenge for all of us, not only for the government, because this is what we have been doing.
As the hon member said earlier, the ruling party, in fact, undertook a programme. I will be happy if other parties join the ruling party to do so. Thank you. [Applause.]
Speaker and hon President, I think these xenophobic attacks have put us all to shame. We definitely do accept your call for collective responsibility.
Mr President, firstly, would you say that, since you became the President of the Republic in May 2009, xenophobia in South Africa has gotten better or worse? Could you please explain your answer. Secondly, considering that as President you have a powerful voice to influence people, what have you done in your personal capacity to speak out against xenophobia; and, in your opinion, have you done enough? Thank you.
Speaker and hon member, I will give an answer, without explaining it. [Laughter.] I think it is true that there have been incidents of xenophobia, which we acted upon immediately. Indeed, we stopped it instantly and interacted with the people.
In fact, we went to a number of areas to talk to people to resolve that question. We went to the area of Gauteng in Johannesburg, East Rand and Tshwane. Indeed, it cooled down and it disappeared. I think it has been showing itself in various areas - not only amongst ordinary people, but also in business. In Soweto, for example, business people raised their voices about the fact that foreigners were taking their businesses. Action has been taken, and I think we should continue to do so.
As long as we have poverty and the large number of foreigners, it certainly is a recipe for this problem to keep on returning. That is why it needs all of us to deal with it. We must conscientise our citizens that it is not correct to have a wrong attitude towards a foreigner, because they are our brothers and citizens of this continent and of this globe.
Of course, others come from beyond Africa, but we should be able to handle the matter. I think so far, given the number of the foreigners in South Africa, we have handled this question fairly. Thank you, hon Speaker. [Applause.]
Policy on fruitless and wasteful expenditure by national government departments
17. The Leader of the Opposition (DA) asked the President of the Republic:
What (a) policy will he lay down in response to the Auditor-General's report that fruitless and wasteful expenditure by national government departments has increased by 200% in the 2010-11 financial year (details furnished) and (b) steps are being taken (i) to recover the money and (ii) against the persons who are found to have used state funds improperly?