Speaker, hon members, it is not necessary for the President to lay down a policy on matters related to fruitless and wasteful expenditure and on the improper use of state funds. These matters are addressed satisfactorily in the Public Finance Management Act and in its subordinate Treasury regulations.
In terms of the Public Finance Management Act, accounting officers of departments and institutions are responsible for the effective, efficient, economical and transparent use of their institution's resources.
In addition, the Act requires accounting officers to take effective and appropriate steps to prevent unauthorised, irregular, fruitless and wasteful expenditure. Officials are also required to take effective and appropriate steps to prevent, within that official's area of responsibility, any unauthorised, irregular, fruitless and wasteful expenditure. The law also makes provision for appropriate disciplinary steps to be taken against any official of a government department or public entity who makes or permits unauthorised, irregular, fruitless and wasteful expenditure.
In addition, Treasury regulations require accounting officers to exercise all reasonable care to prevent and detect unauthorised, irregular, fruitless and wasteful expenditure and must, for this purpose, implement effective, efficient and transparent financial and risk management processes. Regulations also provide that losses or damages resulting from unauthorised, irregular, fruitless and wasteful expenditure must be recovered or dealt with. It is, therefore, clear that the current legislative framework makes adequate provision for accounting officers and accounting authorities to deal with transgressions, disciplinary steps and the recovery of losses resulting from fruitless and wasteful expenditure. We also appreciate the role of Chapter 9 institutions such as the Office of the Auditor-General, Public Protector and the SA Human Rights Commission, amongst other institutions, which monitor such conduct on behalf of the public.
We also have law enforcement agencies and investigative bodies such as the Special Investigating Unit, Asset Forfeiture Unit and other instruments to deal with serious transgressions. In addition, executive authorities are required by the Constitution to report regularly to Parliament on matters under their control, including actions taken on the matters relating to the member's question.
Mr Speaker, the President has indeed gone through a long laundry list of checks and balances that exist in our country to prevent the misuse of public funds. Yet, still, Mr President, far too much public money is wasted in South Africa - money that should be used to improve services for all South Africans.
Mr President, all spheres of government need to redouble their efforts to curb fruitless and wasteful expenditure, and we must guard against new forms of wasteful expenditure. Next year the organisation that you lead, the ANC, will celebrate its centenary. Taxpayers' money is already being used to upgrade infrastructure that will be used during the ANC's birthday celebrations. [Interjections.]
Would you agree that it is wrong to use public money to support this event, either directly or indirectly? If not, why not? And would you agree that spending of this nature should be classified as fruitless and wasteful? [Interjections.]
Would you agree that Ministers, MECs or government officials who have been engaged in such expenditure should be held responsible and criminally liable for this spending, and that the money should be recovered? Thank you very much. [Applause.]
Speaker, once again, I wish the member was specific as to where this is taking place, because to answer generalisations is a big problem.
It is of no assistance to make a statement about something that is being done if you don't disclose the particular point at which it is being done, so that those responsible for doing so can move immediately and deal with those matters. I think the hon member wants me to generalise on allegations that are being made. [Interjections.]
As you know, South Africa has the oldest organisation, the ANC, celebrating its centenary next year. [Applause.] Now, the ANC is different from other political parties. [Interjections.] It was established by the South African people - in fact, Southern African people - and these people believe they have a right to celebrate this organisation. How they will celebrate it, I don't know as yet. If there was evidence that these people are, in a sense, celebrating it in this way or that way, I would say let us look at the issue.
The ANC liberated the oppressor and the oppressed. [Applause.] If, for example, people, who recognise the work done by this organisation to liberate all of us, want to utilise facilities that are there in the country, which are used by others for any other thing, is there anything wrong with that?
HON MEMBERS: No!
But if you said there is an officer who budgeted to celebrate the centenary from the budget of the country, then let us discuss that matter if that is an issue. [Interjections.]
That is why I started by saying that if, hon member, you generalise, you put me in a difficult situation. How am I supposed to answer? There may be no case to substantiate those allegations at all. [Interjections.]
Order! Order, hon members!
The ANC, as far as I know, has been raising its own funds to celebrate its centenary ... [Interjections.] ... and it has spent money to celebrate its centenary. That is what I know. As leaders of the ANC, we have participated in raising the money.
Any suggestion that says that there is money that is being used, which does not belong to the ANC... [Interjections.] ... and you are not being specific, then that's a problem for me. If you are not specific, how do I react to that? [Interjections.] Thank you, hon Speaker.
Mr Speaker, hon President, let's get back to the question that was originally addressed to you. We all should save our resources, whether it's a private household or the government, especially in these times. I therefore think that government should set the example and so should the Ministers.
Hon President, will you consider taking up the matter of wasteful expenditure with each Minister whose department has failed the nation and hold them personally accountable if the situation is not rectified in the following year? In other words, will you fire them if they do not perform during the following year? [Interjections.]
Speaker, really, I have answered the question. There are measures and remedies that are there if such a situation arises. In the history of this government, those measures have been implemented whenever we have found wasteful expenditure. Certainly, action will be taken. There is no doubt about that. I don't think anyone would doubt that, if we find such transgressions, we are going to act. We have been acting and we will continue to act.
The type of action that we will take to remedy the situation will depend on the nature and gravity of the transgression. As you know, it does not prescribe firing only. It prescribes a number of steps and a number of different levels of what one can do. [Interjections.]
This applies to absolutely everything that you are talking about. So I'm saying that if we find a transgression, we will act. And the action taken will be in accordance with the size of the crime committed.
Mr President, whilst I agree that one has to act, and whilst I agree that there are legislative prescripts that recognise and identify fruitless and wasteful expenditure, what is cause for concern is the ability of the departments, firstly, to deal with allegations of corruption and, secondly, to take disciplinary action against offenders. I say so, Mr President, after reading from the Public Service Commission's report of March 2011. In the report it is stated that when it comes to investigations into allegations of corruption, only 15% of the departments were found to have advanced investigative capacity and 25% to have basic capacity; others don't have any capacity.
On disciplinary actions, the PSC has found that departments are often lenient in imposing disciplinary sanctions against officials found guilty of fraud and corruption. It is common to find written or final written warnings to officials found guilty of fraud and corruption. This ties up with the question posed by the hon Koornhof that not enough is being done to make an example of those officials who are responsible, especially for fruitless and wasteful expenditure. Fruitless and wasteful expenditure is expenditure that brings no tangible outcome for the department or taxpayer. [Time expired.]
Well, you are reading a report that refers to certain departments that may not have the capacity at all, while some have very limited capacity and have been lenient towards those that are found to have done something wrong. That is the view emerging from the report. Even when it comes to those that have no capacity at all, the report doesn't say they have not acted. It does not necessarily make that assertion.
Now, as Members of Parliament, why don't we make proposals to say that if we find this kind of thing, this is what we should do because different departments, finding indiscretions of one kind or the other, act in a particular way. I think you should be saying that maybe, because we are critical as a result of the report, we must discuss what other remedies we would want to propose, and then I will listen to you. Thank you, hon Speaker.
Speaker, hon President, I agree entirely with you and I would like to echo your sentiments in congratulating the Auditor-General for uncovering some of these difficulties and challenges in government departments so that we, as legislators, can also do our part in exercising oversight. In this regard co-operation with members of the executive is absolutely crucial.
However, Speaker, I would have expected the new Leader of the Opposition to rise to the occasion today and tell us what the DA is going to do with Mr Odendaal in Midvaal. [Interjections.] A report has just been presented by the Public Protector, exposing millions of rands that belong to the public, which have been wasted by a councillor of the DA. [Interjections.]
What are you going to do? [Interjections.] If you live in a glass house, remember not to throw stones recklessly. [Interjections.]
Order, hon members! Order!
Mr Speaker, on a point of order: I would like to know whether this session is for questions to the President or for questions to the DA? [Laughter.]
Yes, it's not a supplementary question.
Number of new jobs created and number of people re-employed
18. Mr M G P Lekota (Cope) asked the President of the Republic:
(a) How many sustainable jobs have been created in terms of the government's plan to create 500 000 jobs with the R20 billion that has been budgeted over three years as a job stimulus package to create new jobs and (b) what number of people who had lost their jobs since 2009 have been re-employed in their former line of employment?