Deputy Speaker, the Department of Defence and Military Veterans has a constitutional responsibility over the land and sea borders in order to ensure the integrity of the country. In view of the magnitude of this responsibility, we have decided to break this down into phases. We started this in April 2010. We expect that our land borderline will have been covered entirely by the end of 2014.
Our assessment of deployment is carried out on a regular basis. We also get regular feedback from relevant communities and stakeholders. In our phased approach we prioritised the Mozambique borderline for the reason that this is the most porous and because of the threat that is posed, especially to the endangered species, the rhino.
I wanted to take this opportunity to indicate part of our successes with this message, which I received last night from Minister Edna Molewa, one of our stakeholders, Minister of Water and Environmental Affairs. She sent me an SMS saying, "Dear Comrade Lindi. Good evening. I have been suspecting that we have an inside job in this rhino poaching matter. My suspicion has been proved true. I wish to thank you and the special task force that is deployed in the Kruger National Park, over and above the border patrol team that you have. Our appreciation is done and due today because we have arrested five of our employees for killing two rhinos and stealing their horns." [Applause.]
I would like to add that appropriate action has been taken by the Minister internally, as well as the fact that this matter has been given over to the police. These are some of the responsibilities and successes that we have scored from being at the borders. We have recovered livestock, the total number of which is 1 435, which is a real relief for those farming communities along our borders.
In the past 18 months we recovered 76 stolen vehicles. I am certain that this has brought down the level of hijacking because we have closed off the route from which these cars were driven through to our bordering regions. We have confiscated contraband goods to the value of R81 million. We have arrested 35 000 illegal immigrants. Out of those, we have redirected the genuine refugees to declare themselves at the proper border posts.
In areas where the SA National Defence Force is deployed, the soldiers are helping the local communities with building and renovating of their infrastructures, churches, schools, etc. In looking over and assessing the impact that we have had, I am very satisfied that the decision we took to go back to the borders was a very good one. I thank you. [Applause.]
Madam Deputy Speaker, through you, I would like to tell the hon Minister that I am impressed with the collaborative and collective approach that she has shared with this House. However, I did not hear, hon Minister, whether you have enough capacity and resources to ensure that our borderline is secured. I thank you. [Applause.]
Order! Hon member, ask your sweetheart question when you want. Don't make a noise, please. [Laughter.]
Hon Deputy Speaker, the hon member should know that the reason we took on a phased approach is precisely because we do not have the necessary capacity, nor do we have the resources to cover the entirety of the borderline. [Interjections.] That's because we do not have the money. The money is allocated by Parliament. [Interjections.] I think that is the silliest question I have ever had to respond to. We do not have the money.
We now cover three priority areas and are hoping that we will go on to the fourth one by the end of this year. What is good about this approach and the work that is being carried out at the borders is that we are able to incorporate the reserves who otherwise would not have been employed. So far we have taken on and employed 15 000 reserves, providing 15 000 households who need jobs with a much-needed income. I thank you. [Applause.]
Deputy Speaker, before I ask my question, I must compliment the Minister on her dazzling outfit this afternoon. [Laughter.] [Applause.]
We support the deployment of the SA National Defence Force on our borders and recognise what they have achieved there. The fact is that we are not serious about safeguarding South Africa's borders, because we have more bodyguards protecting South Africa's Ministers and their mansions than soldiers protecting our borders.
We have 16 722 police protecting South Africa's Ministers, but only 1 050 soldiers protecting South Africa's borders. It's a monstrous political scandal. So I would like to ask the Minister if she agrees, in the light of these shocking facts, that what we really need is to ramp up the deployment of the SA National Defence Force on our borders beyond the 1 650 soldiers she envisages in this financial year. [Time expired.] [Applause.]
Deputy Speaker, we are here on a very serious matter of protecting the integrity of this country. I do not have time for grandstanding and ranting and raving. I thank you. [Interjections.]
Madam Deputy Speaker, on a point of order: Once again a Minister is not answering a question. The Ministers are in this House to answer questions, and she is talking about grandstanding. If that wasn't grandstanding, I don't know what is. Could you please order the Minister to answer the question? [Interjections.] [Applause.]
Deputy Speaker, the question that came across from there, amid their heckling, was: Why are we not covering more of the borders? We do not have the resources or the funds. If we had the funds to do that, we would by now have covered the entirety of our borders. That is my responsibility. If I had the money, I would be there.
You are bringing in a matter that has nothing to do with Defence. The question that you are posing to me is directed at the Minister of Police and not me. I am answering on behalf of Defence. If you give us the money, we will be there. You can stop being a jack-in-the-box and sit down. [Applause.]
Particulars regarding SAPS policy on standard lease periods for buildings leased
24. Rev K R J MESHOE (ACDP) asked the Minister of Police:
(1) Whether the SA Police Service, SAPS, has a policy on standard lease periods for all buildings they lease from (a) other government departments and (b) private companies; if not, why not, in each case; if so, what are the (i) minimum and (ii) maximum periods in each case;
(2) whether the policy allows for 99-year leaseholds; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details? NO313E
Deputy Speaker, the policy regarding standard lease periods is determined by Public Works and not by the SAPS. Nevertheless, the SA Police Service's request to the Department of Public Works to enter into a lease agreement with a minimum lease period of five years is based on the approved building programme of the SAPS. However, this is dependent on the strategic plan of the SAPS which is currently being reviewed.
The maximum lease period acquired by the SAPS was nine years and 11 months. This is supposed to be for the high sites - which are those sites where radio equipment is used - due to the fact that radio frequencies do not change that often. Any leases that were signed for 99 years were done by the Department of Public Works prior to the devolvement of the lease budget to the SAPS during 2007. I thank you.
Deputy Speaker, it is difficult to understand why the SAPS does not have a policy that concerns the buildings that they themselves are leasing. According to one of the documents that we were given in the committee, there is a place in Ekurhuleni where the SAPS pays R1 292 per square metre, and the term of the lease is written as 99 years. This is an official document that we were given in a meeting.
Now that the Minister is saying that the maximum period is nine years, how is it that the documents that come from the same department contradict what the Minister has said right now? Regarding how much is paid per square metre, we have never heard of any place where the charges are more than R1 000 per square metre. [Time expired.]
Hon Umfundisi [Rev] Meshoe, there is no contradiction between what I have said and that document. If you had followed clearly, I said that, before 2007, many leases were signed for 99 years. From 2007 to date - from the police's perspective - it is nine years and 11 months. So it's not a contradiction. What you are reading is what had happened before 2007. Ke a leboga, ntate. [Thank you, father.] [Applause.]
Thank you, hon Deputy Speaker. Minister, despite everything that has been said in the report about the SAPS to the committee and the answer that has been given, will you agree and consider giving an instruction that the SAPS management takes a greater hands-on approach in terms of managing lease contracts by, for example, giving the Department of Public Works due notification of contracts that are going to expire? They can then indicate whether they want them renewed or whether they are looking for additional accommodation, so that we don't have a situation where the contract runs out and the department needs to lease on a month-to- month basis. Thank you. [Applause.]
Thank you, hon member. The SAPS - over and above what has been said are the problems with Public Works - cannot absolve itself on the issue of infrastructure, including the monitoring of some of the things which are being done.
I recently had meetings with the management of the SAPS and I told them that it's all well and good to say that the fault lies with Public Works, but what is their responsibility? So, the infrastructure, which is meant for the police, has to be taken up by the police themselves. As a result of that, some of the infrastructure which is now under discussion comprises the buildings which were built by the SAPS itself. These cannot be said to be better than those built by Public Works. That is why we are talking of other partners to help, because clearly the police have not excelled in the area of construction. Besides, I don't think that it is their area anyway. Thank you so much. [Applause.]
Ngiyabonga Sekela likaSomlomo, mhlonishwa uNyambose bengicela ukubuza ukuthi kulezi zindawo okutholakala kuzona ukuthi intela ikhokhwa kakhulu ebe aziwa umuntu okukhokhwa kuyena kube kungafanele ukuthi kukhokhwe leyo ntela. Ngabe izobuya kanjani noma uzoboshwa yini lowo muntu eboshelwa ukuthi uyasigebenga ngokuthatha intela engafanele na?
UNGQONGQOSHE WAMAPHOYISA: Unzima lo mbuzo owubuzayo lungu elihloniphekile ukuthi izobuya kanjani imali. Uyabona lungu elihloniphekile ezinye zalezi zivumelwano ezikhona zindala kakhulu futhi abanye abantu bakhona abasekho. Yingakho nje noma uzwa kukhulunywa kakhulu ngezindaba zezivumelw ano zokuqashisa zamaphoyisa kukhulunywa ikakhulukazi ngabantu abamnyama. Izivumelwano zokuqashisa amaphoyisa zingaphezulu kwenkulungwane lungu elihloniphekile. Iningi lalezi zivumelwano ziphethwe ngabelungu kodwa akukaxoxwa ngakho kusazokwenziwa. Sizoyibheka nayo le ndaba ebikade ishiwo nguMfundisi ukuthi kukhona abantu abaqolayo ngokukhokhisa umphakathi. Nakho lokho kufuna sikubheke ngoba wonke umuntu phela owenza into engahambi kahle akufanele kubhekwe ukuthi unjani ebusweni. Kufanele kubhekwe ukuthi wenzani futhi ungubani. Lolu cwanin go esikhuluma ngalo lufanele lukuveze konke lokho ngoba uma lungakuvezi luyobe alusisizi entweni esifuna ukuyenza. Ngiyabonga kakhulu.[Ihlombe.] (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)
[Mr V B NDLOVU: Deputy Speaker, hon Nyambose, I would like to know if there are any areas where it has been discovered that rent charges are excessive and it is known that the person to whom the rent is being paid is not the lawful landlord. How will that money be recovered? Or will that person be arrested for wrongfully taking the rent?
The question you have asked, hon member, about how the money will be recovered is a difficult one. You see, some of these contracts are very old and some of the people who were involved have passed away. That is why whenever you hear about issues of police lease contracts we mostly refer to Africans. Police lease contracts total more than 1000, hon member. Most of these contracts are managed by whites but they have not been discussed as yet; that is still going to happen. We will consider the issue mentioned by the Reverend that there are people who commit fraud by charging the public. We have to look into that issue as well because everyone who is doing wrong should be attended to regardless of their skin colour. We need to check as to what you are doing and who you are. The research we are discussing should reveal all of that because if it does not, it will not help us in our objective. Thank you very much. [Applause.]]
Madam Deputy Speaker, the Minister of Police is overseeing what is a chaotic property system of endless leased buildings. I have to tell you that the staff had to do an audit because they didn't even know how many leased buildings the SAPS had. They are blaming the staff who came before them, and when they came before the portfolio committee, they blamed the staff who came before them.
What I would like to know - considering the chaos - is whether the Minister, instead of telling his staff to talk to Public Works, is not making an effort to speak with an admittedly totally dysfunctional Public Works Ministry, and at least hold a conversation with them in an effort to perhaps have the buildings purchased, which would save us millions of rand?
Failing that, can the Minister, at the very least, have the leases renewed before our SAPS members are actually locked out, which is happening more and more, often when Public Works simply forgets to pay the rent? It's a ridiculous situation and the buck stops right there.
Yes, you are correct. It does stop here. The issue here, as I have explained to you, is what happened with the leases and what should be happening going forward. What you are referring to is members who came and said something else that is not related to anything that we have been talking about today. You are referring to what you have written to me here, namely section 35. We have not spoken about that. We are talking about the leases and I am saying to you that we are doing what we are doing, as I was responding to the member. You were here. I think you were not listening, as usual, but I am saying to you, please listen. You just have to listen. [Laughter.]
Point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker.
What's your point of order?
If I may just inform the Minister that the note I wrote to him was about Question 26, which we discussed 20 minutes ago. [Interjections.]
That is not a point of order.
That's not a point of order. Hlala phansi, awazi ukuthi ukhuluma ngani. [Sit down, you do not know what you are talking about.] [Laughter.] Deputy Speaker, we will continue doing this. As I said, we are engaging other partners, some of whom are state agencies, to ensure that they assist in coming up with leases as we continue with the audit of the leases themselves. Part of the reason why he, sorry, she, doesn't like these leases is because maybe some of the people are her friends ... Yes, you are a "she". Sorry, "she". [Laughter.]
Deputy Speaker!
Hon member. [Laughter.] So ... she must wait, because maybe these are ... She must wait. She is a "she". Hon "she", sorry. [Laughter.]
Continue, Minister. [Laughter.]
No, I am disturbed by "she". [Laughter.]
See also QUESTIONS AND REPLIES.