Hon Chairperson, as the hon member knows, fighting crime and corruption is one of the key national priorities articulated by President Zuma, in various state of the nation addresses, to this Parliament. The Special Investigating Unit, SIU, is one of the institutions at the forefront in our fight against corruption. The Special Investigating Units and Special Tribunals Act of 1996 was introduced by government to deal with alleged irregularities in the Public Service. This legislation gives the SIU wide powers to investigate irregularities, including corruption, and, very importantly, to recover assets lost through such activities.
In line with government's zero tolerance policy against corruption, the SIU and other institutions actively involved in the fight against corruption have seen massive increases in their budgets and staff over the past couple of years. The SIU's budget has increased on average by 32,84% per year over the past five years, rising from R116,3 million in 2008-09 to a massive R307 million for the current financial year. The staff of the SIU has increased from an initial number of 70 persons to just over 700 persons at present.
Since it was established in 2001, successive Presidents have issued 49 proclamations in Gazettes, authorising the SIU to investigate irregularities in the wide range of departments and institutions. The details of these are listed in Annexure A to this reply, as it would not be possible to read the entire list in the time allocated for responses to parliamentary questions. I have given the list to the hon member who has posed the question. It should be noted that 21, or almost half of the 49 proclamations, were issued by President Zuma in the past three years since 2009. This is clear evidence of government's commitment to fight corruption without fear or favour wherever it might occur.
With regard to the question as to how many of these matters follow from the work of the Auditor-General, we can say that the Auditor-General is one of the important state institutions supporting constitutional democracy, established in Chapter 9 of our Constitution. The mandate of the Auditor- General is to audit and report on the accounts, financial statements and financial management of a wide range of entities required to be audited by the Auditor-General. In this regard the work of the Auditor-General plays an important role in the fight against corruption.
Unfortunately, due to the number of proclamations issued and the complexity of the matters involved, it's not always possible to say which matters that are being investigated by the SIU follow from corruption identified by the Auditor-General. Thank you.
Deputy Minister, thank you for the list that you gave me. Do you experience any backlog of some sort in terms of issuing new proclamations, for example, in terms of the new corruption cases that have come before Scopa and have been referred for further investigation?
There is a case of the Sector Education and Training Authority, Seta, of 2009-10 that involved over R200 million that was also reported. We were informed that there is some debate in a department where they have indicated that there won't be new proclamations issued because they need to amend the legislation. Now I ask: Do you know of this particular case? This Seta case is an old case that involved over R200 million and many others that were referred to for a proclamation to be issued. Now, is there a backlog? Is there a debate to review the legislation? Why should the review of legislation slow the due process? [Time expired.]
House Chair, I am not aware of a backlog. In fact, I think the last proclamation that was issued by the President was issued in September of this year. I can say that if one looks at the pattern of the issuing of proclamations, in 2001 there was one, in 2002 two, 2003 four, 2005 three, 2006 two, 2007 seven, 2008 one and 2009 one. And then in 2010 that figure shot up to eight. In 2011 there were four. In this year alone, eight proclamations were issued. So, I can confidently say that those proclamations are being processed with all due speed by the Department of Justice and Constitutional Development and sent to the Presidency.
With regard to issues of review of the legislation, I am not aware of those. I can certainly look into that matter, and also into the particular matter of Seta. Thank you.
Hon Deputy Minister, I am not privy to that schedule, but is there a proclamation mentioned or are there any plans to prepare a proclamation in respect of the allegations in the Public Protector's report on the Limpopo transport tender awarded to On-Point Engineering? If not, why not? If so, when is it expected to be sent to the President?
House Chair, I will have to look into the specifics of that matter. What I can say is that on 23 March this year, the President did issue a proclamation in respect of the Limpopo province to investigate irregularities in the provincial Treasury, the Department of Health and Social Development, the Department of Roads and Transport, the Department of Education and the Department of Public Works. That is an ongoing matter that is being looked into by the SIU to determine whether any investigations by the Public Protector would necessitate a new proclamation or an expansion of an existing one. This is certainly something that we could look into and revert to the hon member.
Thank you, Minister, for your explorative response. My follow-up question is the following: Is the hon Minister satisfied about the SIU's success rate in investigating corruption?
Hon Chairperson, most certainly, as I have indicated, the SIU is one of the institutions that is in the lead in our fight against corruption. Over and above the work that it is doing in investigating those matters it has been tasked to do by way of Presidential Proclamation, it also plays a very important role in the Anti-Corruption Task Team that has been constituted by Parliament. Thank you very much.
Use of SANDF facilities to transfer skills to youth for National Youth Service
386. Mr A M Maziya (ANC) asked the Minister of Defence and Military Veterans:
With reference to her reply to question 22 for oral reply on 29 February 2012, how can South Africans contribute to the success of the National Youth Service by using SA National Defence Force facilities to transfer low and high intensity skills to the unemployed and the unemployable youth? NO3798E
Hon Chair, since 2011 the SA National Defence Force, SANDF, in co-operation with the Department of Rural Development and Land Reform, has provided its facilities in Bloemfontein, Kimberley and Saldanha Military Bases for National Rural Youth Service Corps training. In total, over 3 000 youths participated and were equipped with social, life, leadership and management skills.
A youth camp for youths of ages between 17 and 24 is currently being planned by the Department of Social Development for 500 young people, and this, again, we will host in December in Bloemfontein. These young people were identified through the district dialogues. Of course, we urge the South African public to support all programmes related to youth development and to build partnerships with us. Thank you.
Hon Chairperson and hon Minister, how does the public, including businesses, assist or participate in the programme of reinforcing your intentions on youth development?
Hon Chair, the South African public can only make inputs through these public participation processes to other government departments because, truth be told, all we do is to provide facilities. We do not have skills to impart to the young people other than the war skills. So, what we do is we co-operate with those government departments which would like to participate and use our facilities for this purpose. The South African public can make inputs through nongovernmental organisations, NGOs, and the civil society to make suggestions as to which other programmes can be conducted from the facilities that we run. Thank you.
Chairperson and hon Minister, the statement is that this is targeting the youth. The information I have is that, in KwaZulu-Natal, there are very old youths who have been drafted into this particular programme. [Interjections.] Yes, they are very old youths, of your age more or less, who are married and have got families but are in this particular programme. What is of concern is that it is being seen as an ANC-only programme. [Interjections.] No, it is a fact that it is only ANC people who get accommodated in this particular programme. How are you going to ensure that all South Africans are treated equally in having access to this particular programme?
Hon Chairperson, I think it is important to clarify that there is a difference between the National Youth Service and the Military Skills Development System, which is run by the Defence Force that recruits young people for military preparedness for a period of two years. At completion of this Military Skills Development System, some get recruited for employment in the core service system of the SA National Defence Force.
Those who are not taken in are encouraged to join the reserve force for a period of five years and then are deployable as part of the normal force employment by the Chief Joint Operations.
The other matter of people who are recruited in some of the areas constitutes information you seem to be privy to, but to which I am not, and I am unable, honestly, to give an honest answer to that question. Thank you.
Hon Chair, I am sure we all agree that it is absolutely imperative that the Defence Force is not used to further the interests of any political party. However, there is a concern that the National Youth Service is being used as a cover to provide training for members of, amongst others, the ANC Youth League. Given the fact that the Defence Force plays no role in the recruitment of the trainees and indeed has no control over the recruitment of the trainees for National Youth Service, how does the Minister know that the Defence Force is not, inadvertently, providing training to members of the ANC Youth League? Would she investigate this matter? What measures would she put in place to stop this from happening?
Hon Chair, let me start by saying that the SANDF is actually not responsible for recruitment of these young people. Further, if the information that you have suggests that we are politically partisan in the manner in which the selection is done by whoever, I think you should bring forward those representations, so that we can see what to do. I cannot investigate a matter that I am not aware of. Thank you.
Hon Minister, you said these young people were identified through the district dialogues. I have never heard of those dialogues, Minister. I may be too old to be one of them, but I have never heard of them. How do you advertise these dialogues, where do they sit, and how were these young people recruited to those dialogues?
Mamelani Tat'uNdlovu, ndithe kaloku ukhona umahluko phakathi kwe ... [Listen, Mr Ndlovu, I said that it is important to note the difference regarding the ...]
... National Youth Service, which is run from our facilities, not that it is the programme of the SA National Defence Force.
Uphinde ube nala nto ngoku ekuthiwa yi ... [There is also what is now called the ...]
... Military Skills Development System, which is run for two years, where people receive training for two years. After that, we either absorb them into the Defence Force...
... okanye bahambe baye kujoyina ireserve force iminyaka emihlanu. [... or they go to join the reserve force for five years.] Now, when I mentioned the dialogues ...
... kungoku bendisithi kuwe ... [... I indicated that the ...]
... young people who participated in this National Youth Service are people who were selected from the dialogues which are conducted by the departments concerned. For instance ...
... le siza kubanayo ngoDisemba eBloemfontein ... [...what we are going to have in December in Bloemfontein ...]
... is a camp that is organised by the Department of Social Development, and all we are providing as the Defence Force are facilities. The same applies to the Department of Rural Development and Land Reform; we don't make that selection. They make their selection, and all we do is to make facilities available for that training. Thank you. [Applause.]
New procurement process for VVIP aircraft
412. Mr D J Maynier (DA) asked the Minister of Defence and Military Veterans:
Whether her department has embarked on a new procurement process to acquire VVIP aircraft for, inter alia, the President of the Republic; if not, why not; if so, (a) when did the process commence, (b) which stakeholders (i) have been consulted and (ii) will be consulted, (c) what is the total budget and (d) what is the schedule for the acquisition process? NO3831E
Hon Chair, the answer to this question is no. Although the need to enhance the transportation for the very, very important persons, VVIPs, by the SA Air Force remains urgent, a new procurement process has not yet been started by the Department of Defence and Military Veterans.
What is currently happening is that the SA Air Force is engaged in the process of requesting operational capability. Once that process is completed, the process of staff targeting will follow, where the requirement is being scoped according to the needs and costs. This process will take a period of three months. Once that has been done, the Chief of the SA National Defence Force will present a report to me as the Minister, so as to then approve whether we go ahead or not. Thank you.
Hon Chair, we all know that the former Minister of Defence and Military Veterans, the hon Lindiwe Sisulu, was a big shopper, but we had no idea how big a shopper she was until it emerged that the former Minister had been shopping for a super size R2 billion Boeing 777-200LR for President Jacob Zuma.
Now, the new Minister, looking a little shell-shocked after she took a direct political heat weeks after she had arrived in office, did the right thing and cancelled the purchase of the aircraft. However, the Minister announced that the new procurement process will have to be embarked on, and she has commented on that issue today.
The real question here today, Minister, is whether you think that it is justified to spend billions of rands on VIP jets, when we know that President Jacob Zuma's Boeing business jet is virtually brand new... [Time expired.]... and, most importantly, when millions of people in this country are poor. [Interjections.]
Hon Maynier, let me start by correcting something here. There is no former Minister and a new Minister. We are Ministers from the same government. I think you have to get that clear in your head.
The next thing that I want to say is: You are right; I have just said that we will embark on a new process, and I have outlined the process. I said, currently it is with the Defence Force itself, with the Air Force, where the staff target is being determined and the requirement is being scoped in relation to the needs and the costs. What this means is that we are not turning a blind eye to the fact that the extent to which we spend on such matters should not impact negatively on some of the immediate priorities of government.
If we were insensitive, we would not be undertaking this process. We are doing this precisely because we are concerned and therefore have to ensure that the costs are aligned to the need.
There is talk about millions, but I do not even know what the Boeing is going to cost, if we are buying a Boeing or a seven whatever and what the names are. What I do know is that we have embarked on a responsible process that is under way. When that process is completed, we will then, of course, make an announcement.
We have mentioned, when we said this matter was not on the table yet, that whatever process we embark upon will be a transparent one.
By the way, it is also important to note that, as all of this was happening, we had actually required legal opinion. We have received legal opinion and it determined, amongst others, that the matter was not on the table because the agreement with the company that you referred to had already lapsed by 15 June. Thank you.
Hon Chair, what I would like to know from the Minister is whether in any future procurement of these VVIP aircraft for the Presidency, the issue of security prescripts, reliability and predictability, as well as global and national presidential responsibilities will be the major considerations in order to make a determination for procurement purposes. Thank you.
The process that I have outlined earlier on, about the Air Force being currently engaged in the process of requesting for operational capabilities, deals precisely with those kinds of matters - such as the kinds of aircraft and their ranges, the kind of capability that is needed, their safety and other things. Thereafter, as I said, what the cost implications of that procurement would be, would be looked into. So everything said by all of us in different terms and languages, all point to the fact that there is a need for an initial process that will do a proper scoping of the project. Thank you very much.
Hon Maynier, will you take your seat, please. Hon Ramatlakane, your name is not reflected here on the screen, but you may take the supplementary question, sir.
Hon Chair, can I just bring it to your attention that we also have a technical problem on hon Ngonyama's desk.
I will ask the staff to look into the matter. The hon Ramatlakane.
Hon House Chairperson, just a follow-up question. Hon Minister, you said that the process will start afresh. I just want to understand that there will be no additional financial commitment in the pipeline that would come on board. [Interjections.]
We are asking this question, because in the previous budget that was submitted, there was R600 million in relation to the aircraft, which we were told was a once-off amount. Again, in this adjustment, there is also money that is budgeted for this aircraft, and when we questioned it, we were told that the best person to answer would be the Minister. So I want to make sure that there will be no hidden costs that would flow in tomorrow after this process had started afresh.
I am sorry; I do not know what the hidden costs are that you are referring to because I have not even given you an initial cost. I have not given you an initial cost because I said that once the request for operational capability has been done, the Air Force will, only at that point, consider staff targeting, which is called scoping in relation to the needs and costs. It is at that point that we will know what exactly the need is going to be.
So when you say there are hidden costs vis--vis those I have disclosed, I do not know what it is that I have said. I do not know what it is that is hidden, honestly. I want to answer these questions as honestly as is possible, but please don't misinterpret what I am telling you, because you are going to do a media interview and quote this as being what I have said. Don't misrepresent me right here in the House. Thank you. [Interjections.]
Now the former Minister of Defence and Military Veterans, Lindiwe Sisulu, seems to try and distance herself from the scandal surrounding the purchase of the Boeing 777-200LR for President Jacob Zuma. The former Minister reportedly claimed that she had advised Dr Sam Gulube, the Secretary of Defence, that the deal should be suspended. My question to the Minister is this: Is the former Minister's claim true, and if it is true, how does she know that it is true?
You are really garnering for what is called a "divide-and-rule" strategy because you keep on making reference to the "former Minister" and the "new Minister", and I think that is incorrect.
The other issue concerns the matter of the cancellation or no cancellation. The right point is that I have made an announcement. Whether it was on the basis of some advice that was given to Dr Gulube or not, I did effect a cancellation on the basis of legal opinion that I had received, because I went to seek for it. I was given the legal opinion, and also told that all the discussions were based on an agreement that lapsed on 15 June. [Interjections.] No, I am answering your question.
Order, hon member!
I therefore do not understand what the issue is. The point right now is that there is no deal for a Boeing that is on the table. That deal is off; it is not on the table. We have started a new process within the department, and we have not even yet come out to talk about it. It is in the department because the department itself must take responsibility for anything - for future arrangements of this nature.
I don't know what is it that you want to hear because I will not contradict myself. You are talking about Dr Gulube, and the instruction given to Dr Gulube by the Minister has nothing to do with the process which I initiated after I had joined the department and have received the report. Thank you. [Applause.]
Ex-offenders with expunged records that commit
390. Ms W Ngwenya (ANC) asked the Minister of Correctional Services:
How many ex-offenders (a) had their criminal records expunged in the past five years and (b) have committed new offences? NO3802E
Chairperson, the question relates to the expunging of criminal records. The expungement of a criminal record refers to a process whereby an ex-offender obtains a clearance certificate from the Criminal Records Centre of the SA Police Service. This certificate will show that the period of 10 years has passed after the conviction, and it must be attached to an application form.
The ex-offender will submit an application to the Director-General of the Department of Justice and Constitutional Development to determine whether his or her application meets the requirements set out in section 27 of the Criminal Procedure Act. If the application meets the requirement, a certificate is issued to the head of the Criminal Record Centre for execution.
The Department of Correctional Services does not have jurisdiction over the expungement of the criminal records of ex-offenders. The Department of Justice and Constitutional Development is the custodian of this area of work. Therefore, the competency of the expunging of criminal records lies with that department. Thank you.
NK W NGWENYA: Ngiyabonga Ngqongqoshe impendulo yakho kepha kubalulekile ukuthi kubuye kubukwe nokuthi nhloboni yobugebengu obenziwe yilabo abasulelwe amacala uma uMnyango ubheka udaba lokwesulwa kwamacala. Isibonelo nje, umuntu ontshontshe isicathulo sama-R50, yicala; umuntu obulele, yicala; umuntu nje ontshontshe uswidi we-R1, yicala. Ngiyabonga.
UNGQONGQOSHE WEZOKUHLUNYELELISWA KWEZIMILO: Ngiyabonga kakhulu lungu elihloniphekile. Yebo, kuyabukwa ukuthi umuntu wenzeni njengoba kuyaye kuphele iminyaka eyishumi emva kokuthi umuntu eseqede isigwebo sakhe ukuze avunyelwe ukuthi afake isicelo sokwesulwa kwerekhodi lakhe. Uma esenza isicelo esithile sekuthiwa: unalo yini irekhodi lobugebengu noma wake waboshwa, wavalelwa na? Kufuneka akwazi ukuphendula athi: cha, ngoba alisasebenzi lelo rekhodi.
Kuyaye kubukwe ukuthi wawenzeni kwasekuqaleni, ingabe kwakuwukuntshontsha nje okungatheni, bese kuba khona amacala anzima njengokudlwengula, ukubulala njll. Lapho-ke umuntu onjengalowo kufanele irekhodi lihlale likhona kuthi noma wenzani kodwa libe khona irekhodi eliwubufakazi bokuthi likhona igazi lika-Abela. (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)
[Ms W NGWENYA: Thank you for your response, Minister. An important point that the department should consider, though, is what types of crimes were committed when considering applications for expungement. For instance, when you compare someone who has stolen a pair of shoes worth R50 with someone who has murdered someone and someone who has stolen a sweet which costs R1, you know that each one of them has committed a crime, but they all differ in their degrees of seriousness. Thank you.
Thank you very much, hon member. We do indeed consider the type of crime that was committed, since we can only accept applications for expungement ten years after the sentence was served. When an ex-convict is applying for a job, for instance, and is asked whether they have a criminal record or whether they had ever been arrested, they should be able to say no when their criminal record does not exist anymore.
We do consider the type of crime that was committed, be it just petty theft or serious crimes like rape, murder, and others. Those that were convicted of serious crimes like murder, for instance, cannot have their records expunged. So, no matter what they do, they will always be known as murderers.]
Chairperson, through you to the hon Minister, is there a process of co-operation between the Department of Justice and Constitutional Development and the Department of Correctional Services to prevent the abuse of the system if it is found that an ex-offender whose criminal record had been expunged had reoffended? Can the criminal record be reinstated, or how do you prevent any future abuse by criminals in this case? Thank you.
Chairperson, I think we are a Department of Correctional Services whose task is to rehabilitate people into proper functioning members of society. It is not in the interests of society to have someone serve a sentence and finish that sentence, but still have 10 years in which the person must report that he or she was convicted of a criminal offence. It is also not in our interest to then extend it further than those 10 years, to extend it indefinitely. Where will it end? There is co-operation between the Department of Justice and Military Veterans and us. It is safe to say that when a person is released, he or she actually remains released. We deal with people who are in our facilities and those who are outside on parole. Those people are still our responsibility. Once you are through with that, you are completely through. There is a time when you are free.
Chairperson, through you, I thank the Minister for the answer. My questions are: Are South African ex-prisoners aware of this process? If not, why not? If so, what are the details surrounding the expungement of the records in South Africa? In the legislated period, when clearing of records is expected to be carried out, how will it be done? Can the record, once expunged, remain accessible even to the potential employers?
Hon Minister, before you continue, may I just say that the member had asked a number of supplementary questions. You can concentrate on the first one, sir. [Interjections.]
Chairperson, I think all of us must be part of spreading the awareness. It is true that a number of ex- offenders are not aware of when their records are expunged. Sometimes people apply even to the President - and it is only the President who can expunge it - so that their record doesn't reflect or detract from their further employment elsewhere, because you don't want a person to serve a life sentence when he was not sentenced to a life sentence.
House Chair, through you to the hon ...
... Mhlonishwa, selisuliwe-ke icala ebenginalo lagudlulwa nasemabhukwini kodwa uma sengiqashwa kuyatholakala ukuthi ngike ngathi ukuhamba iminyaka eyishumi nanhlanu,ngangazeka, ngaziwa yihhovisi lakho kuphela ukuthi ngikuphi. Kuyababulala laba ozama ukubahlumelelisa izimilo. Kungenziwa kanjani ukuthi bazame ukulungiseka ukuze izimboni zikwazi ukuthi zibathathe zibaqashe ngoba phela selisuliwe icala kubona? Yini manje emva kwalokho bazithole sebejeziswa ngento asebedlulile kuyona, necala eselisuliwe kubona. Uma selisuliwe laqedwa sengithola umsebenzi embonini esendaweni ethile ngiyasebenza bese livuka lima ogqokweni icala lami kanti selaphela laze lasulwa nasemabhukwini, kwenzeka kanjani lokho mhlonishwa?
UNGQONGQOSHE WEZOKUHLUNYELELISWA KWEZIMILO: Ngiyabonga Bab'uGatsheni. Mhlawumbe yingakho kubalulekile ukuthi umphakathi wonke ulekelelane kulolu hlelo olubizwa ngokuthi yi-Victim-Offender Community Dialogue ngoba phela kufanele umuntu owenze icala agwetshwe kodwa uma eseqedile isigwebo sakhe kufanele kube nendlela yokuthi sisonke simlekelele ukuthi abuyele emphakathini, emndenini wakhe kanye nakomakhelwane bakhe asebenze. Sinazo izingxoxo nabaqashi kodwa azisabalele ngendlela esiyifisayo ukuze abaqashi nabo bazi ukuthi umuntu osesidonsile isigwebo usesiqedile.
Abaningi mhlawumbe njengoba sizobona baphuma namakhono abakade bengenawo asebekwazi ukwenza izinto eziningi. Kuthiwe noma ukwazi ukwenza lokhu kodwa ... hhawu wenza ukuthi eminyakeni eyishumi noma eyishumi nambili eyedlule! Kufanele kube khona indlela yokuthi baphinde bamukeleke baphile nomphakathi, yinto-ke le ekhona emhlabeni wonke yokuthi sibakhona leso sisila esisalayo kodwa yikho lokho okufuneka sifundisane ngakho. (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)
[... Minister, suppose one's criminal record has been removed, but when one is applies for a job, one is found to have a period of 15 years of one's whereabouts unaccounted for and only the Department of Correctional Services has that information. That, then, becomes a disadvantage to the ex- offenders. How can we make them employable again without their criminal records hindering them? How does it happen that the criminal records of some ex-offenders reappear long after having been removed and when they are securely employed, hon Minister?
Thank you, Mr Gatsheni [Mr Ndlovu's clan name]. Maybe that is why it is important for communities to be actively engaged in the Victim-Offender Community Dialogue to help with assimilating ex-offenders back into society. We are in negotiations with employers, even though it is still on a smaller scale, to consider employing ex-offenders.
Most of them acquire a number of valuable skills while serving their sentences. They are prevented from using them, though, because of crimes they committed maybe 10 or 12 years before! We must find a way to accept them back into society. This happens all over the world. There is always a stigma attached to them and we should educate one another about rehabilitating them.]
Challenges and goals of National Register for Sex Offenders
393. Ms M C C Pilane-Majake (ANC) asked the Minister of Justice and Constitutional Development:
Whether he has found that the management of the National Register for Sex Offenders is achieving its intended goals; if not, (a) what challenges are they encountering and (b) what steps does he intend taking to find solutions for these challenges?