Deputy Speaker, with regard to the programme around infrastructure and, in particular, the latrine programme in Limpopo, I can definitely assure this House that the pit latrine eradication programme in Limpopo is indeed progressing well. We are also confident that with the generous budget that has been allocated for 2015 the programme will meet its deadline.
We do want to say that it is not only a Limpopo problem; it is a national problem. As the national department, we are working with provinces to make sure that our provinces do indeed meet the norms and standards that we at the national government have set.
As I speak - because it is national programme - this very Friday we will be opening a school here in the Western Cape as part of assisting all the provinces to meet the norms and standards. We will also be opening another one next week. We are opening a school every week, especially in the Eastern Cape, because our infrastructure programme is indeed a national challenge.
I must say that with this year's budget I think that we as a sector will be able to meet our infrastructure challenges, including the pit latrine eradication programme. Thank you, Deputy Speaker.
Deputy Speaker.
Yes, hon member?
May I please address you in terms of Chapter 9 of the Rules of the National Assembly? I refer to Rule 105(6) and (7).
I don't want to be accused of racism and that is why I did not rise before. Hon Minister Gordhan and his Deputy Minister both spoke. That is not allowed. We raised this last week, and we are raising it again. If the Minister is around, the Deputy Minister should not speak. So the hon Minister must not do it again. [Interjections.]
Hon member ...
The last time I raised it, they said I was racist with the hon ... [Interjections.]
Hon member.
So I wanted to just clarify the fact, Deputy Speaker, that it is within the spirit of the Rules that we are raising this question. [Interjections.]
I rise on a point of order, Deputy Speaker.
Yes, hon Minister. What are you rising on?
Can I just explain that I was not in the House when Mr Hlengwa was speaking. I got into the House just as he was completing his statement. I asked the Deputy Minister, who had been in the House, to address that point.
So I would imagine that racism has nothing to do with this. Our young colleague's imagination is really running away with him.
Hon Deputy Speaker.
What are you rising on, hon member?
Deputy Speaker, I would like to give you a clearer context. The Rule that we are talking to provides:
In the absence of a Minister who may respond to a statement as envisaged in Subrule (6), the relevant Deputy Minister or any other Minister must be given an opportunity to respond on behalf of the absent Minister.
Now the Deputy Minister has spoken in the presence of the Minister. We cautioned you in a previous sitting that this is not allowed. The Deputy Minister can only speak when the Minister is not here.
It happened with the Minister of Justice in a previous sitting and a ruling was made that a Deputy Minister is not supposed to speak.
So the Deputy Minister must really relax, and all other Deputy Ministers must relax too. [Laughter.] They will speak when their bosses are not here, please. We want to be respected; we don't want to be addressed by Deputies. [Interjections.]
Hon members, order! Order! [Interjections.] Order, hon members! Order! What are you rising on, hon member?
May I please address you, hon Deputy Speaker?
On what, hon member?
I want to clarify this point. Last week when we raised the same matter, I was accused of racism by the hon Kubayi. She said that she was going to write a complaint that I was a racist because I had said that the hon Deputy Minister, who is white, was speaking when the Minister, who is black, was here. The Minister walked out, running. I was called to order. They said that I must not raise the issue in terms of race.
But it does pain us because the bosses are here, you know, and the Deputies are here, and they are speaking. They must not speak. [Laughter.]
Hon Ndlozi, I would like you to take your seat.
[Interjections.] ... being racist. I am trying to clarify to the hon members on the other side that it is the Rules, really. [Laughter.]
Hon Ndlozi, take your seat. ...
Hon members, the House must take exception to this constant use and abuse of racial appellations in the conduct of our affairs. [Applause.] You can read the Rules and interpret them as they state ... [Interjections.] What's wrong with your referring to Deputy Ministers? When you degenerate into using race as your objection, you are creating a problem. I am just suggesting that it is not appropriate that we go that route.
Hon members, I also find it terribly strange that where circumstances allow it we should not, in the interests of accountability, allow members of the executive to answer questions - whether Deputy Ministers or Ministers. You are correct in pointing out the Rules as they stand. So, where evidence is sufficiently strong for us to allow for those circumstances that will allow it to happen, allow us presiding officers the latitude to make that decision. Our doing so is in the interests of accountability.
Does who it comes from really matter? It matters in important ways when we are unable to get any responses. I get excited when many Ministers and their deputies are here to answer questions - Ministers alone or with their deputies.
I suggest that this matter be dealt with in the Rules Committee, so that we do not come back to it, for some kind of finalisation, and so that we get guidance on this position.
I would like to stop at that and allow us to proceed. Thank you very much, hon members. [Applause.]
Deputy Speaker, you have not given a ruling. The existing Rules proscribe a Deputy Minister's speaking when the Minister is here. That is what the Rules say. There is no ... [Inaudible.]
Hon member ...
Don't run Parliament for your own convenience and try to say lots of things here simply as rhetoric.
Hon member ...
You must live by the Rules here so that we able to move consistently. We do not want to be confused.
Hon members ...
As long as this Rule exists there is no Deputy Minister who is going to speak when the Minister is here. It's as simple as that.
Take your seat, hon member.
And if you want to change the Rule you can go and change the Rule. There is a process of changing the Rules now. You can change that Rule and then we can allow Ministers and their deputies to speak here. But as far as this Rule is concerned, Deputy Ministers must keep quiet ...
Hon member ...
... and give notes to the Ministers when we are asking questions so that the Ministers are the ones who are responsible.
They are not members of the Cabinet.
They are not even members of the Cabinet, these people. They are not supposed to be here in the first place. It is an unnecessary expenditure, which is just so that people can speak forever, not knowing what they are talking about. So they must really shut up, please.
Hon members ...
Hon Deputy Speaker, could I please address you on a point of order?
Yes, hon member.
Hon Deputy Speaker, I find it a bit disrespectful, and also unparliamentary, for the hon member Shivambu to indicate that Deputy Ministers must "shut up".
Furthermore, I find it unacceptable that the hon Shivambu also said that when Deputy Ministers address this august House, that does not show respect to members. I would like you to look into that and make a ruling on it, because I don't think that is parliamentary. Thank you.
Deputy Speaker.
No, no, no. [Interjections.] No. Hon members, let me ...
But can I address you, hon Deputy Speaker, respectfully?
Let me do this, hon member. Hon Ndlozi, what are you rising on?
May I please address you respectfully, hon Deputy Speaker?
Yes.
Hon Deputy Speaker, please, we are speaking in the best interests of the spirit of the Rules. We must not be vilified when we ask hon members to stick to the Rules, including you, hon Deputy Speaker. It is not wrong.
By the way, a ruling was made last time. A ruling was made that that was wrong. Therefore, you cannot change it today just because you are afraid to say Deputy Ministers must be supervised. Deputy Ministers must sit down. It is not wrong to say that when their bosses are here, they must keep quiet. They must not speak.
Hon Ndlozi, don't spoil ...
We are vilified for quoting the Rules!
Hon member, don't spoil your language by ...
You must rule properly, Deputy Speaker. Other members of the House are now vilifying us for quoting the Rules!
Let me explain to you what the problem is, hon Ndlozi. Do not raise an important point and then use abusive language to describe hon members in the House. You degenerate into using inappropriate language, and therefore create a problem for how we should address each other.
Hon members, I have said that the citing of that Rule was correct. I did not hesitate to say that, because I realised that it was something important. All I am suggesting to you is that we be politically sensitive to the responsibilities members have asked us to undertake.
We will stick by the Rules. We will work with the Rules. Many of you here in the House do not, by the way, strictly adhere to the Rules and we ... [Interjections.] Hang on! Let me explain to you. I have explained my conduct and the rulings I have made, and I have suggested to you that you go and discuss this matter in the Rules Committee, so that we bring a guiding mechanism here that will enable us from here on to apply the Rules strictly.
If you agree, hon members, we can be very strict, and when we become very strict, it is not going to be nice - I can promise you that. [Interjections.] We will be strict. We are operating in the interests of a healthy political exchange in the House, and not bureaucratically obstructing discussion. We will request you to do so and, if you don't, we will raise it ourselves in the Rules Committee to get guidance.
This matter is now closed. Thank you very much.
