Chairperson, I will not go into the details that are currently before the court, save to say that the hon member should look at the legislation passed by the House. You can look at section 199(1) of our Constitution, where there is a clear definition of our role as the security services of the country.
Security services are defined as the defence, police, and intelligence services. Equally, earlier on, hon member Mr Lekota also made reference to the Powers, Privileges and Immunities of Parliament and Provincial Legislatures Act. We did apply the law. [Interjections.]
The reference to the General Intelligence Laws Amendment Act would be in a position to indicate that it does provide for issues of a broader definition of national security. Equally, a copy of the Act is available to clarify that broader mandate. There are a number of pieces of legislation that govern our task in executing our role to secure the state, our people, and our interests as a country. I thank you. [Applause.]
House Chairperson, my follow-up question to the Minister is as follows: If the assertion of the Minister that following the law is about rehearsing how you are going to beat up Members of Parliament, MPs, three days before the sitting, then I have serious concerns about you.
Also, if the further assertion is that the General Intelligence Laws Amendment Act may not have applied to the national Parliament - and you know that very well - it may not have applied even in preparing anything of that sort here in the House, and that is not part and parcel of the court case that you keep hiding behind.
By taking it out of Parliament, as it is now, the way you handled the situation here ... [Time expired.] [Interjections.]
Chairperson, I want to put it on record that three days before the sitting, the Minister of State Security or any official in my department had not beaten any person.
If the member has been beaten by any officer from my department or by me, there are law-enforcement agencies, and there is a judiciary. The member has a right to recourse, but the member cannot give a statement that is factually incorrect to the country. I would request an apology because our people - including me - have never beaten anybody here. I thank you. [Applause.]
Hon Mbatha, please stand up. In your follow-up question, did you say the Minister or his officials in the department beat up people three days before the state of the nation address?
I said in his understanding of the law, if it meant ... [Interjections.]
Did you say that in the understanding of the law, three days before the state of the nation address, either his officials or he himself beat up people?
House Chair, perhaps we should start from the beginning.
No, I am just asking a question for clarity because the Minister asked that you withdraw.
He is not going to get an apology. [Interjections.] He is not. Let's start from the beginning.
Hon member, I will look at Hansard in terms of the statement that you made, and then I will rule, but not today. I will come back to the matter tomorrow.
Thank you.
Can we ask ...
Hon Chair?
Hon Ndlozi, what point of order are you rising on? [Interjections.] Your hand was up.
The point of order is: What would be inappropriate? It is not an insult to say, "You beat me up". Why are we being asked to withdraw the statement that the state security beat us up?
Hon Ndlozi, order! Hon Ndlozi!
Mahlobo beat us up. What is wrong with that, Chairperson?
Hon Ndlozi, take your seat. Can you take your seat, hon Ndlozi? I have said I will rule on this matter tomorrow. I will look at the exact statement of hon Mbatha and then come back to the House. Hon Shivambu?
House Chairperson ...
Hon members, order! Hon Shivambu, take your seat.
Yes, but can I ...
Can you take your seat. I've recognised you. Take your seat. Hon members ... [Interjections.] ... hon Mbatha, in his follow-up question, made a particular reference that the Minister, in answering, asked him to withdraw.
I asked hon Mbatha whether he used that phrase. He explained himself, and he said that he would not withdraw it. I then said, because he did not give me a clear answer to that question, I would look at Hansard for his statement and then come back to the House and rule. I am not sure what you would want to debate further on this matter. [Interjections.] Can we please proceed? Can I take hon Shivambu and then I will come to you, hon member? Hon Shivambu, what is your point of order?
Chairperson, the point of order is that your intention was to say that if, indeed, hon Mbatha said that, you would ask him to withdraw. [Interjections.] He is not going to withdraw it because the security forces were called from outside to come and assault members. [Interjections.]
Hon Shivambu!
That is the reality. You must deal with that.
Hon Shivambu, order! Hon Shivambu!
Come back with Hansard. There won't be any withdrawal or any apology.
Hon Shivambu, take your seat!
It is a fact we must remind you of. [Interjections.]
Chairperson, in his address, hon Ndlozi indicated that Mahlobo beat us up. I really think you should instruct hon Ndlozi to withdraw that unfortunate remark. Thank you. [Interjections.]
Hon members, can I first address hon Shivambu? Hon Shivambu, I don't think we talk about intentions here, and there was a specific reason why I said I would come back after reading the Hansard.
The member, in his follow-up question, was very specific about the timelines. He specifically said "three days before". That is why I am saying that in order for all of us to avoid confusion about the matter, I will look at Hansard, come back, and make a ruling. That will assist in ensuring that we do not actually give our own impressions or our own recollection of issues.
Hon Ndlozi, a matter that has now been raised is that, in your point of order, you said, "Hon Mahlobo beats us up". [Interjections.] Can I ask you to stand? Did you make the statement?
Yes, Chairperson, I made a mistake. I said "Mahlobo." I withdraw that - "hon Mahlobo". But our members' matter of having been beaten up makes a case that it was on the instructions of the security cluster of which hon Mahlobo's department is part.
Hon member!
Chairperson, I agreed. I said that.
Hon member, can you please withdraw the statement?
No, I cannot. I cannot withdraw. Chairperson, I do not see what is wrong with saying that hon Mahlobo beat us up.
Hon member, factually your statement is incorrect.
Then let's debate it. It must be made in substance as a motion. It must be made in substance; it is a matter of fact.
Hon Ndlozi!
It is not a matter of an insult. It is not an insult!
Hon Ndlozi, can you please withdraw?
Chairperson, you are asking me, in my revolutionary conscience, to betray it. [Laughter.] I cannot betray my revolutionary conscience. [Interjections.] This government called the police here to beat us up! Hon Mahlobo, hon President, hon all of them - the Cabinet - they called people. They beat us up! They are responsible. They must take responsibility! They - including the Speaker, including all the leadership of Parliament - beat us up. [Interjections.] You beat us up. You physically removed us from here! You beat us up! You must take that responsibility.
Hon Ndlozi, take your seat. [Interjections.] Hon Ndlozi, in respect of this issue, I have asked you to withdraw. You have refused to withdraw. I name you, hon Ndlozi. I name you, and I am sure you understand what the consequence of that is. Thank you very much. I now recognise the hon Mncwango to ask a follow-up question.
Chairperson, my follow-up question was actually ...
Hon members, can we allow hon Mncwango to ask his question?
Chairperson, I actually wanted to know from the Minister whether, in fact, the Minister was not aware of the jamming device that jammed the signal in this House. I am asking this because he said that those were operational issues of which he knows nothing.
Secondly, I would like to know whether the Minister can disclose in this House the content of the alleged notes that were exchanged between him and the Deputy President.
Chairperson, I would like to thank hon Mncwango. We should be able to reiterate that the executive, including myself as a responsible executing authority ... [Interjections.]
No, there was no decision that we took in terms of the interruption of signals. That is my answer. We are very clear, Mpangazitha. You will always have a separation of the roles. We, as legislators, should be the first people to say that when we do this separation well, we must be recognised. However, when it comes to the issue of the notes ...
... ayandiza lapha eNdlini, mhlonishwa Mpangazitha. Ukundiza kwawo-ke akusiyona into eqatshukwayo futhi ngeke kube yinto yokugcina.
Njengoba nginguNgqongqoshe oqondene nokuphepha kwesizwe ngibona kufuneka sihloniphe inkulumo ephakathi kwabantu abaphethe isizwe. Sifuna ukwakha izwe elinjani uma sizofuna ukungenelela ezinkulumweni eziphakathi kwabantu abenze isifungo sokuphatha izwe? Into ebalulekile ukuthi kunabantu lapha abayinkinga; umuntu akhulume aqekethe izindaba ageqe amagula athi: Ngathola incwajana ngaphuma kwase kubuya inethiwekhi. Uyakwazi ke lokho ukuthi kungamampunge aluhlaza cwe. Singayivumeli into enje ukuthi iqhubeke ngoba lokho kubulala isizwe. Le sizwe ngeke sasakha phezu kwamanga. Yilokho ke, ngiyabonga kakhulu mhlonishwa. [Ihlombe.] (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)
[... they are floating in this House, hon Mpangazitha. Their floating around is nothing new and it won't be the last. As the Minister of State Security I see fit that we respect the talk amongst the people who are in charge of the country. What kind of a country are we going to build if we are going to interfere in the talks of the people who took an oath to govern the country? What's important is that there are people who are problematic here; a person would spread rumours and say: I received a small note and went outside after the signal was restored. You know that that's a lie. We shouldn't allow something like this to continue because that kills our country. We cannot build this nation based on lies. That will be it, thank you. [Applause.]]
Chairperson, the Minister gave us a lecture on the Constitution, and then he gave us a lecture on the law.[Interjections.] However, it is very clear that the Minister does not understand the law.
I say that because the Minister said that the threat was a threat of disruption. Given the fact that the threat of disruption is not terrorism, is not espionage, is not the exposure of state secrets, is not serious violence, and given that the threat of disruption is not a national security matter, will the Minister tell us what authority in law the State Security Agency, SSA, had in order to exercise domestic intelligence and counterintelligence functions ahead of the state of the nation address?
If the Minister can't point to the exact section in the law, I would suggest that he reconsider his position and resign. [Applause.] [Interjections.]
Chairperson, I would like to thank Mr Maynier. We are running a risk. The risk that we are running is not to speak factually or correctly.
In terms of the Constitution, read the role of the security services well. Go to section 191. Go to the Powers, Privileges and Immunities of Parliament and Provincial Legislatures Act. You go to section ...
On a point of order.
Order! Minister, please take your seat. What is the point of order, hon member?
House Chair, it is now the second time that the Minister has referred members of this House to section 191. I don't know if it is a Freudian slip from yesterday, but section 191 deals with the Independent Electoral Commission, IEC. [Laughter.] [Interjections.]
Chairperson ...
Order, hon members! Hon members from the DA, I won't be able to know exactly who it is, but can you please lower your voices and allow the Minister to respond?
UNGQONGQOSHE WEZOKUPHEPHA KWEZWE: Okunye okubalulekile kakhulu Sihlalo ukuthi abantu abangamalunga ahloniphekile kuyofuneka baziphathe ngendlela ehloniphekile. Ilunga eliqavile elikhulumayo lihamba limemezela lithi liwuSekela Mphathi weziNhloli. Kukhona ukungazi ukuthi umthetho weziNhloli usebenza kanjani ngoba phela umthetho weziNhloli wukuvikela izwe. Uma ubuka ubungozi obufufusela iNingizimu Afrika, lobo bungozi - uma uyazi imithetho yezobunhloli ... (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)
[The MINISTER OF STATE SECURITY: Another important thing, Chairperson, is that the respective members will have to conduct themselves in a respectable manner. An active member is going around spreading lies that they are the deputy manager of the National Intelligence Agency. There is a lack of knowledge as to how the National Intelligence Agency operates because their duty is to protect the country. If you look at the danger that's approaching South Africa, that danger - if you know the laws of the National Intelligence Agency ...]
... you will never be in a position to disclose that threat. It never happened. If you understand our tradecraft, our issues, we hold them in confidence. [Interjections.] The issue that you hold there, you hold your oath. [Interjections.] What is more alarming is that the member who is so active on intelligence and security matters was given a chance ...
... ukuthi asondele abe yilunga eliqavile leKomidi Elingaguquki LeziNdlu zePhalamende KwezobuNhloli, phecelezi i-Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence. Wabalekela uhlelo lokuqinisekiswa kwemininingwane yakhe ukuze akwazi ukuthola izindaba eziyimfihlo zikahulumeni engiziphethe. [Ubuwelewele.] Uhamba nje ememeza esidlangalaleni. Uma ememeza esidlanglaleni ngeke ngamphendula ngezindaba zokuphepha kwelizwe. ... (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)
[... to draw close and become an active member of the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence. He avoided the process of vetting in order for him to have access to the private government information that I have. [Interjections.] He goes around shouting in public. If he shouts in public, I won't respond to him with regard to matters of the country's safety.]
What does it mean? It means that if I actually am going to say that we should hold a roadblock, we must announce it. [Time expired.] [Applause.]
Are there any supplementary questions? I have on my list hon Mashabela.
House Chair, I want to put a question to the Minister of secret services.
State Security. [Laughter.]
I would like to know whether he realises that his actions on 12 February confirm two things: firstly, that his government is a reincarnation of apartheid in totality and, secondly, that he is no different from Hernus Kriel, Magnus Malan, and all the other apartheid military spies and operatives. [Interjections.]
We should be able to put forward the facts. The fact is that we are proud of the work the intelligence services of this country have done. [Interjections.] We are proud of the work they continue to do. Admittedly, we have agreed that, like the nature of the threats in the world that are becoming so complex, there are areas of improvement that we must attend to.
Among the areas of improvement ... [Interjections.] ... there are issues around the ability to use the recent technology so that we can deal with serious threats such as cyberspace threats and cyberterrorism.
We must also be able to deal with issues of economic intelligence because a number of issues speak to issues of the illicit economy. We must be able to deal with issues of terrorism, but it is not factually correct to try to compare the intelligence services of today and yesteryear. That could not be correct. [Interjections.]
We can assure South Africans that we will continue to discharge our responsibility to keep this country safe. We have done our utmost best, and we will continue to strive to ensure that all people, irrespective of their views, enjoy their right to safety, their right to privacy, and other rights that are enshrined in our Constitution. [Interjections.]
I want to say thank you very much to those who are doing well, in terms of improving some of those situations in our country.
Regarding the insinuation that we are the same - there are accountability systems. If a member feels that our actions are outside the law, there is recourse. You did pass an intelligence oversight Act here that creates a body to which to make referrals of our own misconduct if there are issues of misconduct.
Equally, the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence, comprising members of all parties, has a responsibility to call us. We will always come here gladly and answer their questions because they are the public representatives. [Interjections.] Thank you.
See also QUESTIONS AND REPLIES.