Chair, on a point of order. I can still hear the bells ringing. [Laughter.]
Agreed to.
On a point of order. We are now coming right. Can we do it perfectly? The bells should ring and stop ringing. When they stop ringing, it's an indication to those people that are outside that they have to be in.
Please seat down, hon member.
While the bells were still ringing, people were outside and we were already closing the doors and counting.
On a point of order, Chairperson.
Please seat down, hon member.
Hon Chairperson, the last thing this country needs or want is for the budget not to pass because Parliament didn't follow procedure.
Please, seat.
Vote No 5 - Home Affairs- put.
Division demanded.
The Council divided:
Hon Chair, point of order. The bells have not rung once. The bells have not rung.
Please sit down. The question upon which the Council will divide is Vote 5, Home Affairs, that this vote, be agreed to.
Chair on a point of order. Chair, if I may have a chance, the reason we are raising these things, is not to be
difficult. There is a reason why these rules are in place. There is a reason why the bells are being rung; it is to indicate to members who are not in the vicinity of the chamber that a vote is taking place. Every member has an individual right to vote in this house. They need to get an indication that a vote is taking place and they need enough time to get to this House. It is your duty, hon Chair, to protect the individual members.
Please sit down hon member, please sit down. Please sit down. We shall now proceed, yes hon Nchabeleng.
Is it Parliamentary for a member to come in the House carrying hot beverages, and just get in the House and start raising questions on order? The hot beverage with the person, so that, we can all bring our coffees in the house, is it Parliamentary?
Thank you very much hon Nchabeleng, please sit down.
Vote agreed to (DA and EFF dissenting).
Vote No 6 - International Relations and Cooperation
Vote No 5 - Home Affairs
Vote No 6 - International Relations and Cooperation - put
Division demanded.
The Council divided:
I am sure the table can check that when the bells are ringing. I am told that the bells are ringing.
Hon Member: The bells are not ringing
They are ringing.
Hon Member: Chair, we have just been informed that there is a technical problem with the bells, it cannot ring. [Interjections]
The table-staff has indicated that the bells are ringing.
Hon Chair, we have just been informed by officials of this Parliament that the bell system is not working. If the bells
are not ringing they must do it manually, but the bells must be rung and the bells are not working. What will happen if I am sitting in the Marks Building and I am not notified of the votes? We must have the bells ringing, that is the law. [Interjections] I know that the ANC is used to not adhering to the law, but this is the Rules of this House. If they want not to have the bells ringing, that is fine but the bells must be rung. Thank you. [Interjections]
Chair, on a point of order.
Please sit down hon member.
Chair, the whole procedure has been explained according to the rules why the bells are important. We are taking away the right of members sitting in this chamber to vote if they cannot hear the bells. My proposal is that, let us adjourn until the bells can be fixed and start all over again. [Interjections]
Hon member, I have received an official report that the bells are ringing.
Chairperson, you are a Presiding Officer. You must make sure whether the bells are ringing or not. The bells are not
ringing and it was reported that there is a problem, so the procedure of correctness... [Interjections]
Hon member, I have received the third report that the bells are ringing. Please sit down.
Chair, I just rise on a point of order that, members are repeatedly giving falsified information in the House to create an impression that this is a House that is chaos, whereas the systems are functional. We trust your ability Chair, to facilitate the discussions around the adoption of the Appropriation Bill today. We would like that the House should proceed because all matters that were raised earlier, were clarified. All of us did agree to issues of the rules that were raised by members. Now, when they see that there is a floor with regard to the discussion in the House they find something that is nonexistent and want to create chaos in the House. Hon Chair I just move that we proceed with the House unhindered.
Vote agreed to (DA and EFF dissenting).
Vote No 7 -National Treasury- put.
DA and EFF objected to the question on to Vote 7 being put.
Declarations of vote:
Chair, the Minister in an absentia, the Deputy Minister in absentia and the team at National Treasury have a massive challenge to address the ludicrous levels of debt incurred during the madness of the Zuma regime while trying to boost the economy to deal with a dwindling tax income and to turn around the trend of increasing unemployment. We just heard that it has increased to 29%.
The budget presented is a bailout budget, attempting to fill the holes left by state capture. It the Minister was here, we would acknowledge that he heard it in the National Assembly debate as well. If your actions are in the interest of growth and prosperity, we will support you fully. If your actions are politically directed and continue to feed the budget deficit, we will oppose you with everything that we have.
The introduction of the Fiscal Responsibility Bill is key to dealing with the way in which the public purse is managed. The handing out of large sums of cash to the failing SOEs, if it must be done, it should come with stringent conditions attached. Those conditions
cannot be agreed in the offices of the executive; they must be disclosed and debated by Parliament - those who have been given the authority to exercise oversight over the executive.
How safe do you feel, Minister? Should there be a change of God in the highest office? And, an SOE fails to meet its conditions due to a fresh or dare I say continued frenzy of fiscal looting. Will we then get another Des Van Rooyen, Minister, who is compliant and willing to sign off the deviations? Make the conditions known, Mr Minister, to protect yourself, your department and South Africa.
Our credit rating hangs by a thread and honesty and transparency may be the only way to save it. The independence of the SA Reserve Bank needs to be protected despite the absurd attack on it, and the independence of SA Revenue Services need to be restored after the brutal dismemberment perpetrated by Tom Moyane.
This is austere budget; Mr Yunus Carrim even said so in the committee, although he then denied saying it. With money being taken from the government services to prop up government's bloated SOEs; another public expenditure. These matters must be taken into a hand with firmness and decisiveness.
As this finance team contemplates some difficulties of having to do more with less, remember that this is the environment of poor growth and that this is a reality which most South African households face. So, also always keep South Africans - the people who we serve - in front f mind in every decision that National Treasury makes. Thank you. [Applause.]
Chairperson, firstly, I think Mr Ryder is not dealing with the issue at hand; he is dealing with the Budget of the country as a whole instead of dealing with Budget Vote 7, which is a specific budget for National Treasury. He is dealing with a Budget as a whole, which is an issue that falls partly under the discussion on the Appropriations Bill today, and the issue that we dealt with in the House before we came here after 8 May 2019, on the fiscal framework. Perhaps because he is new, it is understandable, but strictly speaking ... [Interjections.] No, I don't mean to be rude or ... [Interjections.] But, we must deal with the budget of the department.
However, since you allowed him to speak on the Budget as a whole, the first thing I should make clear as I have done repeatedly ... [Interjections.] I did in fact say that this is an austere budget, but it is not austerity. Austerity requires in World Bank terms
privatisation, reduction of taxes and reducing the welfare state. So, I insist; I didn't deny it. It is an austere budget but it is not an austerity package! That's a big difference between the choices of words. And, I am very clear; there is nothing inconsistent about that.
On the matter of the state-owned entities, only a moment ago, Ms Mahlangu, the chairperson of Standing Committee on Appropriations says, "The ANC, no less, doesn't believe that the National Treasury should willy-nilly give money to the state-owned companies. The Minister and Deputy Minister, whom I might say should actually ideally be here. They are there in the National Assembly when the Appropriations Bill is dealt with.
They should actually be in the National Council of Provinces. This is something yourself, the chairperson and Mr [Inaudible.] have to look into. Why is it that the Minister and Deputy Minister are not here? On that Mr Ryder, I think you make a point and we leave it to your good office to look into it.
We are both equal - though complimentary - Houses. This is the most important thing we are looking at in the year. It is voting on the budget, one day before the deadline: Why is the Minister and Deputy
Minister not here? I understand they are out of the country, but please, could one of them at least not be here - the Deputy Minister, at least?
So, on the state-owned companies, just look at the SABC. I read in the Sunday Times - no less - on page 2, that the Minister has made it very clear - there is a letter that the Appropriations Committee chair has, which maybe she will make available to Mr Ryder, where it is very clear: They will give the money - the R3,7 billion or whatever it is; I may have the figure wrong - in tranches, only if they meet certain conditions. The conditions are very strict. We welcome that!
Even on Eskom, a chief restructuring office is about to be appointed. Eskom is not going to just get money, and so it should be. So, there is no difference between us, Mr Ryder. Ultimately, it is the Standing Committee on Appropriations Committee that must do its job - as it, in fact, is doing - in ensuring that when the National Treasury allocates money to state- owned companies, that it does so in a way that ensures that there are returns and value for money. We agree on that!
On the issue of ... I can't read my handwriting, I regret to say. As you get older ... [Laughter.] ... those of you who are younger might want to be careful, but I see the point that I've got here. However, in so far as Mr Ryder saying that there are issues that we have to monitor more effectively, we agree. In so far as he is saying that state-owned companies should not be offered government guarantees, which is not the same as bailouts, we do not agree!
Those state-owned companies are fundamental to a developmental state. Yes, we agree, we are partly responsible for its failures, but not solely responsible. We can't be held to account for the global economy going down. [Time expired.] Thank you, indeed. [Applause.]
Thank you very much. Any other declaration? None! Can we move to the ayes and nays.
Voting
Division demanded.