Deputy
Speaker, the reply to that question is as follows: In the lead up to the Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement, MTBPS, as members of the ministerial committee, we met with the Minister of Finance on a few occasions on the issue of managing the fiscus generally and in particular, management of the wage bill.
These engagements with the Minister of Finance have therefore been ongoing before and after the MTBPS. The Minister of Finance, over and above that, is a member of the committee of Ministers which I chair. At the very first meeting of this committee in August 2019, the Minister of Finance presented a financial outlook of which the wage bill was a key component. After the MTBPS, a meeting of the committee on 19 November 2019 also took place. The Minister was in that meeting represented by one representative.
There is an agreement that our approach to this particular matter must be extended to the cost of running public administration generally. The key issues that relates to this are the following: firstly, the leaks and wastage in the fiscus, namely, wasteful and fruitless expenditure, unauthorized and irregular expenditure; secondly, litigation costs to the state with regard to awards against and the general administration of litigation, the cost of ICT to the state, the cost of building rentals, leases, maintenance and refurbishment - these are the issues that are involved in the first issue. Second one, costs associated with the conditions
of service for the elected public representatives - this is contained in the reviewed ministerial handbook and was done in relation to the range benefits and privileges pertaining to the travel and subsistence, accommodation and housing, office personnel and tools of trade for the members of the executive.
The next one is the management of the wage bill as the current wage bill is not sustainable with the fiscal challenges facing the country. The committee of Ministers has appointed six Ministers into a smaller committee to work out all the relevant and detailed issues relating to the wage bill and it is something that is ongoing. Thank you very much Deputy Speaker.
Thank you Deputy Speaker, Minister Mboweni told us that we need to at least R150 billion over the next three years. In a committee meeting shortly before the MTBPS, the Minister of Finance said that his personal preference for solving the wage bill crisis was for public servants to take a 10% pay cut across the board. This seems to be an awfully blunt and even an unfair way of trying to solve this crisis.
In contrast, the DA has crunched the numbers and found a way to save R168 billion over three years by reducing the number of millionaire managers in the public service by a third and freezing the wages of millionaire managers and other administrators while still granting inflation- linked increases for the true heroes of service delivery, like teachers, nurses and police officers.
My question to the Minister is whether he has studied the DA's proposal in detail and whether he thinks it is the best option currently on the table for solving this crisis? Thank you. [Applause.]
Deputy
Speaker, as we say, our approach is to firstly deal with all the issues that are costly to the fiscus. In relation to the R130 billion that you are referring to hon member, it is a perspective from which the Minister of Finance is working on. We generally embrace that we should reduce the wage bill along those lines. In that alone, we are dealing with a range of issues. For now, I am not in a position to count them all but just as an example, it is all issues relating to wage agreements, policies that
have now accumulated into the wage bill that we say it is unsustainable and we want to reduce it. Whether it will fit into what the Minister of Finance has indicated, it is a different question.
Thank you Deputy Speaker, Minister, on the one hand, you are talking about cutting the wage bill, on the other hand, every single department ... and let me repeat ... every department that appears before the Standing Committee on Appropriations is talking about vacancies that they need to fill. On the one hand we need to cut yet on the other there are vacancies. There needs to be a balance.
More importantly, is it true that at any given time there is about 30% of staff that are off sick? If you pick up the phone now, 30% of staff is on sick leave.
Deputy
Speaker, firstly, let me just indicate one thing and I hope all of us will be on a consensus about the problems that we are trying to deal with in terms of the description. There is no irreconcilable contradiction
between what you are saying with regard to the need to cut the wage bill and vacancies. These are two different issues. We need to fill all vacancies that exist in terms of what each executive authority and head of department determines with regard to their needs in each department.
On the other hand, we do need to reduce the wage bill. What we need to understand is that the size of the wage bill does not automatically flow from the number of public servants that we have. In fact, we can confidently stand here and say that we don't have a bloated public service in the Republic. [Interjections.] What we have though is a bloated wage bill. [Interjections.]
We have done thorough studies on this matter. We now understand how the wage bill has grown in a manner that is related to vacancies or to the number of personnel in both provincial and national level departments. Our focus solely is on the wage bill and what has led to its accumulation. I think it is very important to point out and understand. We can give examples of things that have happened over time that have given rise to the wage bill
that we have today. These would, amongst other things, have been unintended ... [Time expired.]
THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Minister, don't do that. Your time has expired. You will continue to answer as others answer.
Thank you Deputy Speaker, thank you Minister for the admission that we all know that the public sector wage bill is unsustainable. The point that you are making is that National Treasury indicates that the average remuneration in the public sector is higher than in the rest of the economy. That is an issue of concern.
However, what I would like to ask you about ... I know you indicated that there is a lot of details that still needs to be sorted out. We know that the new negotiations for the next wage settlement will start next year. In the past, one of the concerns has been that the settlement has been above consumer price index. Whilst we from the ACDP appreciate ... a lot of people ... please, nurses are doing incredible good jobs. How will we ensure that
that increase, if anything, is sustainable when you look at the sustainability of the fiscus and the fiscal consolidation path that is required to bring our government debt levels into alignment? Thank you.
Deputy
Speaker, you are hitting the core of the challenge that all of us have. On the one hand, by the time you start that round of negotiations, you already have money in the pockets of public servants as it were arising from the agreements that have been reached in the past rounds of negotiations. Already that is a problem.
We have decided, amongst other things, to start as early as now to engage with organized labour at all levels, both at a political level and at chamber level. I should point out that we are facing quite difficult issues at the moment to reach consensus at that level. In other words, we are at a point where the state has this and that problem. Let's open up and be genuine about it. Then we can start dealing with the figures. This is how we are going to try and approach it. As I say, it won't include taking money that is already in the pockets of civil
servants but it is rather focusing on the future to say
... you'll realize that the last two rounds of negotiations went far beyond what could have been affordable at the time with regard to the coffers of the state. That is one of the things that we will need to avoid this time around. Starting early is important.
Thank you Deputy Speaker, Minister, there is constant talk even in your party about the need to develop a capable developmental state. One of the requirements of a developmental state is to have highly skilled civil servants who are able to fulfill the function of the state across the board. What impact will the reduction of the number of civil servants have on the developmental objective of the country? Thank you.
Thank
you very much Deputy Speaker, the response is as follows: we have a range of programmes to respond to that particular question. In particular, we have the national school of government whose duty is solely on thing - training on various programmes as determined by the Sona,
legislative framework and the National Development Plan, NDP, amongst other things.
Also articulated, amongst other things, by hon members in the House and by the perceptions out there in the public, all of which points exactly to that kind of situation where we need skilled and capable public servants.
Therefore, the national school of government is focusing on those. What we going to do beginning of the year is to review some of those programmes to align them to the prescripts of the sixth administration. We are already making strides in relation to that alignment and achieving our goals in that regard.
Question 312:
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS: Deputy Speaker, first of all, it is the prerogative of the provincial executive to intervene in municipalities under section 139. In the three municipalities, the two, Lekwa Local Municipality and Govan Mbeki Local Municipality, the intervention was under section 139(5) which means that it is a financial
intervention and the Minister of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs gets informed. The Minister does not concur or decide so it is really the provinces that take those decisions.
But in the case of Modimolle-Mookgophong, this was under section 139(1)(b) which means that the province decides but then it asks for concurrence from the national Minister. Now, we give concurrence if the municipality is failing in terms of the three categories; governance, finance or service delivery-related issues. But, I can not answer for the provinces why they have not put others under administration because it really is their prerogative. Thank you.
Deputy Speaker, Minister, isn't there a monitoring system in the provinces or can we not develop a system in which we can be proactive in arresting the imminent collapse of municipalities instead of reacting only when there is a crisis in municipalities? Is there not a way in which we can react before the crisis is in place? Thank you very much.
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS: Yes, I think you are right when you say, isn't there a mechanism in the provinces because that is their prerogative but the Constitution indicates that you can intervene by supporting the municipalities under section 154 but if that fails you have to intervene differently then. But, the intervention can also come from the Treasury's side. I think to be honest with you, sitting where we are, we can see the problems in many of the municipalities.
Minister, the Table is complaining that you are speaking away from the mike.
Oh!
Yes.
Okay!
That's better.
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS: Okay, thanks.
Thank you very much, yeah.
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS: So, I said that the hon member is correct that shouldn't there be a system in the provinces to an early warning, if you like, that will tell you that things are not going right in a certain municipality.
But, to be honest with you, even without that early warning, there should be an early warning I agree, but even without it we can see that many of the municipalities are facing problems. We can discuss with the province but it is the province that must take the initiative.
But, some of the problems are also related to us here in terms of the political parties, they must also take responsibility because they have a lot to do with what
happens at local government level, let me leave it at that. Thank you.
Deputy Speaker, hon Minister, the officials that are always sent to the municipalities that are not performing well always leave these municipalities in the same position, not doing well, I just want to check therefore, what criteria do you use in appointing these people that are supposed to give guidance to these underperforming municipalities? Thank you very much.
The MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL
AFFAIRS: When a municipality has been put under administration the province then appoints an administrator to run the municipality. But, let me say that it is sometimes difficult just for one person to change the culture in a municipality. He or she may change things whilst he or she is there but if the culture has not changed, when he or she leaves, things may fall back to where they were.
I think we need to rethink in a way how we intervene but, for now, some of the municipalities are under
administration for the second time, others maybe for the third time because the underlying culture was not changed. Just one person was sent there as an administrator and when they come out things fall apart. Thank you.
IsiZulu:
Mhlonishwa, Sekela Somlomo, Mhlonishwa, Ngqongqoshe, ngicela ukwazi mina ukuthi ngokwazi kwakho njengamanje mhlawumbe mhlonishwa, bangaki omasipala abakulesi simo asebebikiwe kuwena? Nokuthi- ke, wona amacala asevuliwe yini evulelwa laba abenzi bobubi komasipala? Uma bekhona, bangaki abasebegwetshiwe noma abaphambi kwezinkantolo? Ngiyabonga, Sekela Somlomo.