Hon member Mhlongo, you must read the Rules that when the presiding officer addresses the House, you must listen to what is going to follow. I do not need your interjections. It is uncalled for.
Declarations of Vote:
House Chairperson, there is a time to come and there is a time to go. Sadly, the Secretary to Parliament's time to go was three years ago. The Secretary to Parliament is like the CEO of this organisation and the fact that this has been dragging on for almost three years has led to a lost of direction and strategic focus for the organisation, as uncertainty and instability around this important position has lingered.
Parliament has a duty to hold itself and its office- bearers to a higher standard, particularly because this House is charged with holding the executive and organs of state accountable to it. That means that there is a higher duty to hold ourselves to a higher standard.
We can't do this credibly if we don't take appropriate action timeously against office-bearers of this Parliament in an effective way. Oversight and accountability cannot be nice words that we put on the steps coming into the House, if we are not prepared to practice them in everything we do.
There is a quote that says: "It is never too late to do the right thing." As this House, this is the right thing for us to be doing. Where I do think the new Speaker and the new executive authority need to be commended and congratulated and supported, by us voting for this today is that it would have been very easy for this House just to let Mr Mgidlana's contract come to an end, as it does in November this year, and to quietly let him slink off to another government sinecure in a cushy office somewhere.
However, the Speaker and executive authority and Parliament are sending a very clear message out that we are not going to allow Mr Mgidlana, given the serious gravity of the charges that he has been found guilty of, to slip off into the night into another cushy job, and
that he is going to be dismissed by Parliament, as a result of his action.
What this does is that it sends out the right message throughout the organisation that if you do wrong, you will be held accountable. So, while it has taken a long time to get to where we are today, and to this motion serving before us, it is the right motion and it is the right thing to do.
Hopefully, this organisation can close this chapter and start to heal itself and start to move forward to build a better Parliament of which we, as members, can all be proud, but most importantly, of which the people of South Africa can be proud.
Hon House Chair, we could not agree 100% more as the EFF. This has come much later than we expected it to be, but in any case it was expected that it can be delayed until his term comes to an end. This is in actual fact, not a dismissal but another golden handshake because this person was charged more than three years ago, yet the finalisation of the charges only came
exactly at the end of his term. That does not make sense for us.
It is a very bad practise for Parliament. It borders on the vetting processes of officials in the public sector, where minimum security standards are not binding, instead a mere recommendation. Mr Mgidlana is going to crop up in one of the departments here, because nothing will be binding for him to be recorded as the most corrupt thugs who came to enrich himself, a self-seeking, selfish person who came to oppress the fellow black children in Parliament, the one who was only giving himself subsidies to educate himself. The one who was giving himself trips on the taxpayers' expense, the one who was not giving proper salaries and standards even to the workers of Parliament.
The Secretary to Parliament holds higher authority because he charges all what Parliament is and employs the utmost discipline, ethics and integrity. This should serve as a caution to the next panel which is going to be interviewing the Secretary to Parliament, that the person must be vetted; it must not be a choice. Otherwise we are
going to harbour another thug that is going to come here and take money of taxpayers, money of Parliament for themselves.
This motion must be noted as one where cadre deployment must never, ever be utilised. Thank you very much. [Applause.]
Hon Chair, the serious allegations against Mr Mgidlana and subsequent findings, has caused an embarrassment for all us as an institution. Parliament is meant to work against corruption and abuse of power through oversight and formulation of legislation. Unfortunately, the findings of misconduct, abuse of power and misuse of funds against a senior member of this institution does not reflect well on Parliament's public image. Hon Chair, this is not the first time that we as Parliament have had to sanction the removal of a Secretary of Parliament, it is the second time. There must never be a third time.
The reason lies in how some of these officials are appointed to their posts. Hon Mente spoke about cadre
deployment and I want to agree. Some of the hon members who were here in the fifth Parliament will know how this gentleman was protected by somebody in higher office, sitting right behind me. When allegations were made against the Secretary to Parliament, [interjections]..., not the particular Chairperson, but sitting in the same seat.
When the allegations were made particularly by Nehawu about some of the shenanigans that the Secretary to Parliament was involved in, it fell on deaf ears. Now the truth has prevailed as it is said the truth shall prevail. We therefore welcome the disciplinary enquiry. We welcome the fact that the Secretary to Parliament should be removed from office. It has come late as the hon Mente has said, but better late than never.
Hon Chair, it also brings into question the long delays to deal with such cases. We know that due legal process has to be followed, but it is over two years that this gentleman has been receiving a salary and has been a drain on the fiscus. If you look at the public service, there are many more cases such as this, where people have
been suspended with full pay and the cases taking a long time to finalise. I think, we as Parliament have a responsibility and a duty to ensure that there is some way to shorten this process so that these elements can be out of our system and not be a drain on us as the fiscus.
Finally, I know that when the Secretary to Parliament is appointed, there is an interview committee which comprises of the executive authority and in the last instance they used some expert. I believe that the time has come when Members of Parliament from different political parties together with the executive authority and these experts must form this panel. In that way there can be a better view and there will hopefully be no chance for cadre deployment. We can get a person that we can trust and that will hold this institution in high esteem and regard. We support the motion. Thank you very much.
THE HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T FROLICK): Thank you hon
member, the hon Swart and thank you for the correction hon Singh.
Hon House Chair, the ACDP supports the motion on the order paper and it is crucial that Parliament, which manages and appropriates public finances, sets itself a much higher standard. We exercise oversight and the question in Latin is quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who will guard the guards? We set in a service standard; we must apply that same standard as well. It is crucial that we need to ensure that the taxpayer's funds are dealt with in a transparent, responsible and accountable fashion.
Mainly, the other speakers have already alluded to the fact that the disciplinary processes took a long time. We in the ACDP agree. It is a shame that this process goes back to 2016 and that the legal process took almost two years to conclude. It is an issue which is across the whole public sector. It is something that we experience, the delays where public officials are suspended on full pay. We are now sitting the situation here that the contract has almost come to a conclusion.
We share the sentiments and the congratulations and the commendations to the Speaker and the Chairperson of the
NCOP for not aligning this just to run the 10 weeks that are left of the contract but to send a very strong message that the disciplinary action has been concluded, and that this Parliament will support the findings of the disciplinary hearing.
Lastly, we would also support the study of the evidence and the findings of the disciplinary action to see whether there is evidence that could be the basis for criminal action and civil action to recover those funds that have been taken. We believe that not only the disciplinary action, but further action should be taken to recover the ill gotten gains. The ACDP will support this motion. I thank you.
IsiXhosa:
Sihlalo Ohloniphekileyo, siyi-ATM siyasixhasa kakhulu esi sindululo sibekwe apha phambi kwethu yi-ANC, Mbhexeshi Oyintloko. Into esiyithethayo kwakhona sithi, uphando nzulu ngomntu lubalulekile kakhulu. Makuthi xa kuzakuqeshwa abantu kwizikhundla eziphezulu (critical posts) kuqinisekiswe ukuba uphando
nzulu lwenziwe. Izindululo zeSebe lezoKhuseleko loMbuso maziphunyezwe kwaye kuncanyathelwe kuzo ...
English:
... because, what we discovered is that sometimes they recommend and say...
IsiXhosa:
...makangathathwa lo mntu aze athi umphathi walo welo ziko ndizakwenza umngcipheko wokumthatha kwaye izakuba luxanduva lwam, athathwe ke loo mntu. Loo nto izala izinto ezifana nezi. Ngalo mazwi sithi libethwa kubekanye, libone. Siyasixhasa esi sindululo sithemba ukuba into enje ayizukuphinda yenzeke. Enkosi kakhulu.
IsiXhosa:
Nalo ke isela, nangoku libanjiwe.
English:
Hon House Chair, hon members, we as the UDM indeed, supports the motion. I just want to show you a letter that we wrote, which I personally wrote on behalf of my party on 14 April 2016, where I was raising precisely
some of the allegations which are contained in the order paper and the motion today, requesting the Speaker of Parliament to look into these matters and to investigate them. The Speaker of Parliament at the time responded by saying that they were going to look into the matter and a month and a half later there was a budget vote here Budget Vote 2, where she exonerated Mr Mgidlana of any wrong doing at the time.
I was very upset in that debate, because at the time what was happening is precisely what hon Singh cited earlier to say, the Nehawu workers raised these issues consistently and they were ignored. They were beaten up by the police outside, teargeased for raising these irregularities and the corruption that was taking place because the Secretary to Parliament at the time was getting protection from some people in the executive authority.
As we celebrate this long overdue victory, we have to take steps to ensure that this does not happen again. I want to make another example and say, immediately after I wrote this letter to the Speaker and started making
noise; I was accused by the very same arrogant executive management of Parliament of being naive and not understanding government's issues.
IsiXhosa:
Bathi ingathi simuncu.
English:
I was called for an interview and asked whether I want to respond. I said the Secretary to parliament is my employee. Under no circumstances can I argue with the Secretary to Parliament or his executive management in the media. The person that we were supposed to be speaking to was the Speaker and the executive authority of Parliament. It is these government issues that we must sort out.
The other issue immediately after I raised the issue was, because the Secretary to Parliament is the accounting officer of the funds that we receive. They started trying to find reasons why they could withhold money from the UDM, the quarterly allocation. I raised this issue as well and I said why am I expected to present myself to
the office of my employee and explain the financials of the UDM? Why am I not called by the executive authority of Parliament to do so?
IsiXhosa:
Ngala mandla sibanika wona aba bantu sibaqeshileyo, yenze kubengathi basiqeshile. Andiyazi ukuba niphatha njani kwaye nilawula njani.
English:
You are a government in office but not in power, because...
IsiXhosa:
...kutheni le nto siza kubizwa ngaba bantu sibaqeshileyo.
English:
Even during the study tours I raised this issue. I said, we accompany the executive authority of Parliament on a study but it would appear as if they are the people who are part of the delegation.
IsiXhosa:
Ukhwele iteksi, uMgidlana yena wayekhwela iiBenz zodidi eChina. Amalungu eNdlu akhwela iteksi.
English:
These are the problems we must address...
IsiXhosa:
...singabe siyilungiselela le nto yamasela.
House Chairperson, as EIC we also support the motion, it can not be correct now that we can keep things in our systems, departments and in Parliament. We are happy therefore that this has come to an end. There are of these instances that should be looked into, so that now these happenings may be curbed or prevented from happening. We should be a government that is always against corruption and we should also see the corruption when it is coming or about to happen. We should be proactive and prevent it from happening.
So when these instances are reported, we should take action immediately, we should not wait rather until there is a lot of damage that has been caused. I wish that I
can even speak now about other monies that are being allocated to us political parties. I think next time we should talk about this because, there are monies that are being allocated to us, so they must also be looked into as to how are we using these monies, otherwise we support this motion. Thank you very much.
House Chair, it has been proven that the said culprit committed- what has been put before Parliament today, gives COPE reason to agree with the motion wholly, and we therefore support the wish all the other parties have said. There is thing that is called cadre deployment, that must end and only persons with capacity and honesty, must be given work to serve South Africans. I want to emphasise that it is not happening only at the national level, even in the provinces the same thing is happening and that is a major, major problem. The fund that must go to the people of South Africa, the working class and the poor people, is actually just disappearing, like that and that is a very serious problem.
Now, I want to refer to one of the departments, at this level which instead of employing the number of persons that it was to employ and that is 80, that department- and members know- has gone on to employ about 500 people. Now that is cadre deployment and that is a major, major problem. These are things that they have got to be dealt with. If at the level of the minister and those persons that work under him or her, you have more than 500 people employed instead of only 80, it means there is a very serious problem. Here we are talking about that which is actually there, there is proof, there is a problem here in South Africa, starting of course at this very level that has got to be dealt with. Thank very much.
House Chairperson, the ANC commends and welcomes the decision by the executive authority to take the necessary steps and deal with this issue of the Secretary to Parliament. We also welcome the decision and recommendations of the Chairperson of the disciplinary hearing, we support it as the ANC. Hon members, yes the process took long but, I want remind this House that ...
Siswati:
...ngitsi emalunga aleSishayamtsetfo saVelonkhe. Ngitsi lekufanele sicinise imitsetfo, kutsi uma umuntfu nangabe atfolakala anelicala lekukhwabanisa, uma amiswa emsebentini kwesikhashana, angaholelwe, angalitfoli liholo. Siyicinise futsi lemitsetfo kutsi uma sekulandzelwe yonkhe lemigomo lekufanele ilandzelwe, loyo
muntfu - uyeva Steenhuisen - atfolakale kutsi ukhokhela tonkhe letimali leti latikhwabanisile ngoba njengoba sonkhe sihleti lapha sibhadala intsela kantsi iyasilimata kakhulu. Leyo ntsela incedza bantfu labahluphekile.
SiyiPhalamende, singemalunga etinhlangano letehlukahlukene siyakhala kutsi asiniketwa timali letifanele, letanele. Ngiyacabanga kutsi ngekucinisa leyo mitsetfo kutawenta kutsi bantfu labaningi basabe kutsi bantjontje esikhwameni sahulumende nome sePhalamende. Ngicabanga kutsi loko kufanele kucale kulo lePhalemende, kuningi lokufanele sikulungise. Yebo singema lapha sitsi hhayi [cadre deployment] hheyi kucashanwa ngekutsi ulilunga layiphi inhlangano noma kunalabo bebahudvula tinyawo ekutseni lelicala lingacedvwa, akusilo liciniso.
Lebekufanele kwenteke kutsi kulandzelwe imitsetfo ngendlela yakhona kute lentfo ingabuyi emuva ishaye yona Iphalemende kutsi ifanele ikhokhele umuntfu ngoba bangakahambisanga kahle tintfo.
Angitsi ngitsi lesishaya imitsetfo levikela labantfu labonako lebaniketa litfuba lekutsi bahambe nabo bente
lonkhe loluhlelo kutsi luhambe kancane, ngoba banemalungelo ekutsi bativikele. Kufanele siyishintje leyo mitsetfo sente siciniseko sekutsi siyayicinisa, kute kuphele lokukhwanabanisa lokukhona, ngoba loko kungumdlavuta lolimata live letfu. Bantfwana betfu bayalimala ngetindzaba tekukhwabanisa ngoba kunetinsita lekufanele tiye kubo nebantfu labahluphekile, abakhoni kutitfola ngendzaba yekukhwabanisa eveni letfu. Ngiyabonga. (Translation of Siswati pragraphs follows.)
[... we are the members of this very National Legislature. We are the ones who must reinforce the laws, that if anyone is found guilty of corruption, if one is temporarily suspended from work, must not get his salary.
We must also make sure that when all the procedures have been followed, that person - do you understand hon Steehuisen? That person must be made to pay back all the monies he defrauded and as we are all here we pay tax and it is not a nice thing. That tax is helping the poor.
As Parliament, we are members of different parties and we always complain that we are not being allocated enough funds. I think by reinforcing strict rules will make those people deter from stealing from the government funds or from Parliament.
I think that must first start from this very Parliament, there is a lot that need to be fixed. Yes, we can stand here saying no to cadre deployment, no to employing people according to party affiliation or there are those who are dragging their feet so that this case may not be finalised, that is not the truth. What was supposed to have happened was to follow all the procedures accordingly so that this may not come and hit back to Parliament and make Parliament to pay that person because Parliament did not follow procedures properly.
We are the ones making the laws that protect people who do wrong and that gives them opportunity to drag the process because they have rights to defend themselves.
We need to change those laws and ensure that we tighten them so that this corruption must come to an end, because that is a cancer that is killing our country. Our children are adversely affected by corruption because there are services that they and the poor must get, yet they cannot get them because of corruption in our country. Thank you.]
The House adjourned at 16:50. -----------------------