Chairperson, hon members, thank you for the issues that were raised in the debate, I will try to respond to some of them as best I can. Perhaps I should first say that I think we should start from the premise that we are Africans. We live on the African continent and therefore whether we join or not is not an optional thing. We are Africans.
Our destiny is tied to the destiny of the rest of the continent. [Interjections.] That is the starting point. Having said and understood it is not an option whether we join or do not join the continent, we are the continent. We are the Africans. Whatever flaws there are in this continent, they are our flaws.
I want to come back to the Abuja Treaty. The Abuja Treaty was drawn up, debated and negotiated in the absence of South Africa. South Africa could not participate fully in that debate as a member, because South Africa was still under the apartheid regime. [Interjections.] So it is a treaty that we found. It is a treaty that has lots of merit. As treaties go, I have never found one that is perfect. It does not matter where they are negotiated, whether at the UN or wherever, because these kind of documents have their own flaws, precisely because in the nature of their negotiation one has to take into account everybody's views.
Therefore, the Abuja Treaty is a negotiated document. It is not a document that reflects one view from one country. Therefore, I would like to say that we should not behave like born-again democrats. I said this in the Assembly, because some of us want to behave like born-again democrats. Born- again democrats are people who have just been introduced to democracy for the first time, and they want to preach to people who have been practising democracy for decades. [Interjections.]
South Africans should stop being arrogant and behaving like born-again democrats. [Interjections.] We are only six years old, hon members must remember. Across the border from the North West we have Botswana, which has had democracy, stability and economic development and growth for more than 30 years. So we cannot think when it comes to the continent that suddenly nobody knows anything and that it is just South Africans who have to lead.
How can we lead people who themselves have produced this treaty? We can give our views on various matters and whether we do not agree with this or that. Maybe with time and hindsight we can all say we that we want to amend the treaty. But it would be wrong to say that Africa should be led by South Africa, as if we have so much experience of democracy, and of living in peace and stability. We do not. There are things which are our strengths and which we should use, but not in an arrogant manner.
I want to answer a few of the questions. Hon Durr says the treaty is flawed. Well, it may be, but the treaty is a treaty that was negotiated. It is a treaty which if, as we implement it we think it is flawed, we as the Africans on the continent whose treaty it is will recognise those flaws and will correct them as Africans as a whole, not just as South Africa.
He asked a very pertinent and legitimate question about whether the Pan- African Parliament is not going to impinge on our sovereignty, and so on. I want to answer his question in two parts by saying that in the globalised world there are lots of sovereign rights that we cede. If we look at the WTO and how it works, a lot of sovereign rights are ceded there. When one talks about tariffs, one is ceding one's tariff harmonisation, one is ceding one's sovereign rights, but what does one get in return? That is what one has to look at.
In general and not referring specifically to the parliamentary question, there will be rights that one would have to cede in order to be part of the global village. We must accept that there will be rights that we will cede. However, having said that, the OAU has already looked at the treaty, and has looked at what sort of things we can change. On Tuesday, 7 November, there will be a meeting here in South Africa of parliamentarians in order to look at the Pan-African parliamentary protocol. This is because the leaders of the continent recognise that at this point in time we can bring up and form the Pan-African parliament now, and not wait. However, in recognising the hon Mr Durr's concern, they have said that at this point in time the Pan-African Parliament will not have legislative powers. It will have consultative powers, and it will also have ...