I take this opportunity to welcome the hon the Minister of Foreign Affairs in our midst and call upon her to address this House.
Chairperson, hon members of the NCOP, it is indeed a privilege for me to participate in this discussion this afternoon.
It is a privilege indeed because I think we live in a very interesting period in which very important history is being made on our continent. It all started with those brave Africans who gathered in London in 1900 for the historic Pan-African Congress to discuss the question of racism and racial discrimination. Among other issues considered by the conference was the need for unity and solidarity amongst the African people.
As history would have it, the Europeans decided at the Berlin Conference to slice Africa amongst themselves in order to meet their insatiable lust for economic expansion. The African people, in pursuit of their right to determine their destiny, successfully resisted this, and indeed we saw struggles for decolonisation in Africa.
When Kwame Nkrumah, one of the finest sons of this continent, convened the All-Africa People's Congress in Ghana, the foundation laid in London began to take root. The yearning of the African people for unity and for the economic integration of the continent resonated in the Monrovia Conference in the late 1960s, which eventually led to the epoch-making Extraordinary Summit of the Organisation of African Unity in 1980 that adopted the Lagos Plan of Action, which articulated the concept of an African economic community.
Of course the African continent could not move much further in this regard until the whole continent was liberated. Therefore, until southern Africa, and South Africa in particular, was liberated, progress was not very great because a lot of energy and resources were used and sacrifices made to support our struggle. Of course, central to all these struggles, the people of Africa were determined to forge the unity, solidarity and economic integration of the continent. Indeed, that is what the Abuja Treaty is about. African leaders had recognised that co-operation and integration among African countries in the economic, social and cultural fields are indispensable to the accelerated transformation and sustainable development of the African continent.
In this connection, regional integration has long been regarded by African policy-makers as being a highly desirable objective. Their appeal for regional integration derives from the understanding that in a globalised world no country can succeed on its own. In fact, the Secretary-General of the United Nations, speaking at the Millennium Summit, said that the train of globalisation does not stop at all stations, it only stops at those stations with high platforms. The high platform is determined by the infrastructure, by the skilled human resources and by the technology of that country. Therefore those countries that do not have the necessary platform for globalisation will be left behind. The African continent does not want to be left behind and should not be left behind.
As we indicated above, the adoption of the Lagos Plan of Action is a major step towards the goal of integration. The commitments in the plan and in the Final Act of Lagos are translated into concrete form in the Abuja Treaty.
The aim of the Abuja Treaty is to establish an African economic community to promote economic, social and cultural development as well as African economic integration in order to increase self-sufficiency and indigenous development and to create a framework for the development and mobilisation of human resources on the continent.
In giving expression to integration, the continent was cut up into different regional economic blocs. These regions are the Arab Maghreb Union, which covers North Africa; the Economic Community of Central African States, which covers, as its name says, Central Africa; Comesa, the Common Market for Eastern and Southern Africa; the Southern African Development Community, or SADC, to which we belong; and Ecowas, which is the Economic Community of West African States. These are seen as building-blocks towards the integration of the continent.
The Abuja Treaty had six different stages for implementation and it was envisaged that this would take 34 years. I will not go into the stages. I am sure hon members all studied them as they were looking at the Abuja Treaty itself. However, what has happened is that as Africa itself was looking at gearing the African continent both for the renaissance and for the 21st century, it decided that these stages should be shortened as this was going to take too long and therefore the Constitutive Act, which I am sure this House will be debating, for the formation of the African Union is a way of trying to shorten the stages of the Abuja Treaty.
It is also combining the Organisation of African Unity with the Abuja Treaty so that they can be one organisation that deals with all the economic and political matters of the continent. Therefore the Abuja Treaty, in my view, is a very important treaty if we are to succeed in making the 21st century the African century.
However, there are those among us South Africans who think South Africa can remain an island of prosperity and are willing to ignore the rest of our continent. Those Afro-sceptics are making a very big mistake. Unfortunately some of them live amongst us in our country. They declare with a lot of arrogance that Africa is a continent full of conflicts and therefore they want to go it alone. I would like to say that South Africa cannot succeed in reaching its full potential if the continent itself does not reach its full potential.
I think hon members have a very big responsibility as we are all willing midwives of this new and exciting process in the history of the continent. To quote President Mbeki, ``I would like to make bold to say that the African Renaissance is not just a dream whose realisation lies in some dim and distant future.'' Let those who have eyes see, for the rebirth of the continent is beckoning. Despite some minor setbacks, the continent is on the march. If there is any need for evidence of the renewal of the continent, it is amply demonstrated in these gallant acts.
In conclusion, it is my fervent hope that hon members will take with both hands this opportunity to accelerate the process of reclaiming our history, our culture and our heritage so as to challenge stereotypes and distortions of Africa as a hapless and dark continent from which nothing great comes. I wish to urge the NCOP to finalise the ratification process of the treaty by voting in favour. [Applause.]
Chairperson, Minister of Foreign Affairs, I think the treaty we are ratifying today, as the Council, is very important to South Africa and, particularly, to the continent as a whole. I am just going to deal with one or two of the objectives as outlined in the treaty. One of them is to co-ordinate and harmonise the policies between the existing and future regional economic communities for the gradual attainment of the objective of the union, the objective being to advance the development of the continent by promoting research in all fields, particularly in science and technology.
I am referring to these two objectives because our continent has particular challenges. Many governments on our continent have serious debt problems, and their campaigns to be relieved of those difficulties are met with complicated procedures. Therefore, in the co-ordination and harmonisation process, we shall have to deal with these difficult circumstances. Again, the fact that some regions are more advanced than others on the continent also poses a serious challenge, but I think it is an initiative worth putting effort into. As the Minister has indicated, this treaty will be realised in the long term, and we dare not fail to rise to the challenge of integrating our continent as a whole.
As we move forward we have to be very careful that every country which is part of this treaty contributes equally, and also that South Africa, as we have demanded from time to time, leads this continent. I do not think we should shy away from that responsibility. This treaty, in my view, will help Africans, in particular, to eliminate some of the elements around xenophobia, because the treaty is very comprehensive in its approach. It deals with culture and every other element that we can think of. I think all the visions and issues that are espoused in this document should be supported. And, I think, improvements are going to be made as we proceed with the treaty, even for those who are sceptical of the treaty at the moment as their issues can be accommodated in future.
I think there are things we are going to learn. We can learn from the EU experience when they established their own union. I do not think we can make the effort, then wait for the process to stall us. We have to continue, because we dare not fail all Africans on this continent. [Applause.]
Mnr die Voorsitter, minister Dlamini-Zuma en kollegas, die verdrag wat die totstandkoming van 'n ekonomiese gemeenskap in Afrika moontlik maak - die Abuja-verdrag, soos dit algemeen bekend staan - is reeds op 3 Junie 1991 aanvaar en het op 12 Mei 1994 in werking getree.
Di verdrag l die grondslag vir die uiteindelike skepping van 'n Afrika- gemeenskapsmark waardeur die aktiwiteite van die bestaande en toekomstige streekekonomiese gemeenskappe in Afrika oor 'n tydperk van 34 jaar progressief in 'n geleidelike proses van samewerking en harmonisering gentegreer sal word.
Dit sal onder andere die volgende bevorder: die skepping en uitbouing van streek ekonomiese gemeenskappe, byvoorbeeld die Suider-Afrikaanse Ontwikkelingsgemeenskap of SAOG; die stabilisering en harmonisering van tarief- en ander versperrings op die gebied van streekhandel; die sektorale integrasie op veral landbou-, finansile, vervoer- en kommunikasiegebied; die stigting van 'n vryhandelsarea en 'n gemeenskapsmark; die aanvaarding van beleidseenvormigheid asook die skepping van 'n sentrale bank, en 'n enkele Afrika-geldeenheid en 'n monetre unie in Afrika, en uiteindelik, die verkiesing van 'n eerste pan-Afrikaanse parlement.
Suid-Afrika se toetrede tot die verdrag en lidmaatskap van die ekonomiese gemeenskap in Afrika is reeds in 1997 deur die Kabinet goedgekeur, maar dit is nog nie bekragtig nie. Suid-Afrika sal nie die ekonomiese implikasies van die verdrag kan vryspring nie, en indien ons hoegenaamd seggenskap en 'n invloed wil h en 'n belangrike rol in die toekomstige ekonomiese en finansile ontwikkeling van Afrika wil speel, is dit noodsaaklik dat ons wel die verdrag bekragtig.
Die Nuwe NP het aanvanklik in die Gekose Komitee oor Ekonomiese Sake buite stemming gebly aangesien daar in daardie stadium onduidelikheid was of alle wetgewing waarvoor 'n bekragtiging nodig is of mag wees, in plek was. Duidelikheid oor hierdie aspek is egter intussen verkry, en ek kon dus die bekragtiging in die Gekose Komitee oor Ekonomiese Sake steun.
Ekonomiese ontwikkeling is wat Afrika nou nodig het. Suid-Afrika is die ekonomiese en finansile hartklop van Afrika, en kan en mag nie sy deurslaggewende rol in die toekomstige ontwikkeling van hierdie vasteland misgun word nie. Terwyl hierdie die eerste stap is om Afrika binne die konteks van globalisering relevant te maak, kan ons nie toelaat dat Suid- Afrika gemarginaliseer word nie, en daarom steun die Nuwe NP die bekragtiging van die Abuja-verdrag heelhartig. (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)
[Dr E A CONROY: Mr Chairperson, Minister Dlamini-Zuma and colleagues, the treaty which facilitates the establishment of an economic community in Africa - the Abuja Treaty, as it is generally known - was already adopted on 3 June 1991 and came into effect on 12 May 1994.
This treaty lays the foundation for the eventual creation of an African community market by way of which the activities of the existing and future regional economic communities in Africa will progressively be integrated in a gradual process of co-operation and harmonisation over a period of 34 years.
This will promote the following, inter alia: the creation and extension of regional economic communities, for example the Southern African Development Community or SADC; the stabilisation and harmonisation of tariff and other barriers in the area of regional trade; sectoral integration, particularly in the areas of agriculture, finance, transport and communication; the establishment of a free-trade area and a community market; adoption of policy uniformity as well as the creation of a central bank, a single African monetary unit and a monetary union in Africa, and eventually, the election of a first pan-African parliament.
South Africa's accedence to the treaty and membership of the economic community in Africa was already approved by the Cabinet in 1997, but has not yet been ratified. South Africa will not be able to evade the economic implications of the treaty, and it is essential that we ratify the treaty if we wish to have any input and influence and want to play an important role in the future economic and financial development of Africa.
The New NP initially abstained from voting in the Select Committee on Economic Affairs because at that stage there was uncertainty as to whether all legislation for which a ratification is necessary or allowed was in place. Clarity on this aspect has, however, been obtained in the meantime and I could therefore support the ratification in the Select Committee on Economic Affairs.
Economic development is what Africa needs now. South Africa is the economic and financial heartbeat of Africa, and can and may not be denied its decisive role in the future development of this continent. While this is the first step to make Africa relevant within the context of globalisation, we cannot allow South Africa to be marginalised, and the New NP therefore wholeheartedly supports the ratification of the Abuja Treaty.]
Chairperson, Minister, we are not against the principle of the Abuja Treaty, or even some of the noble objectives which are set out in that treaty. We certainly do not want to be included amongst those who want to go it alone in Africa. We see a destiny and a new beginning in Africa with the advent of a democratic South Africa. I want to tell the Minister that the trouble for us and, I understand, for his department also, if I may say so, is that the agreement starts with the end and not with the beginning. We have problems with the content, not the vision of the treaty.
The Government and his department have done a fine job with a whole raft of treaties and agreements over the past years. Today we have ratified three fine agreements. The recent EU agreement and the SADC agreement are also excellent examples in the interests of our country, region and continent. The words, the concepts and the vision in all those agreements are all real, beneficial, forward-looking and concrete. Unhappily, the Abuja Treaty does not have these merits. It is deeply flawed, and, we believe, legally flawed. Its objectives are incapable of being achieved within the timeframes set out. The treaty could have far-reaching implications, in our view, for the SADC, the GATT, the EU and the Southern African Customs Union.
Even if the Government recognises that the only merit for us entering the agreement - I have heard this argument and understand it - is to get into the debate and therefore to influence things, then I accept that as an argument. But, for us, it raises a moral problem. Does one sign agreements that one knows are flawed in the first place, simply in order to get into a debate? Now, after improper and insufficient consultation, the Government, in our view, wants to railroad this Parliament into ratifying a document it knows itself is in many respects impossible, certainly within the timeframes it purports to set out.
Africa wants a new beginning. I share that enthusiasm and vision with the Minister. We want a better future. But we will not achieve a better future if we do not lead by democratic example and if we compound the errors of the past. For us, words must have meaning. I want to say to the Minister that it is surely not beyond our wit to negotiate an arrangement without threatening the consensus of constitutional values upon which South Africa stands and which herald a new departure on a journey of hope for Africa.
South Africa runs the real risk of taking on more than it can chew. I would ask the Minister, if he would like to tell us, what the cost implications of this treaty are for South Africa.
Our colleague Mahlangu mentioned the EU. Well, from the war to the Treaty of Rome, it was 40 years of intensive negotiations, and then it took another 40 years before the thing grew. Even now they cannot find each other and there are arguments about the European Parliament. [Interjections.] For us to leap in at the end is, we think, quite wrong. [Time expired.]
Chairperson, at the outset I want to clearly indicate that the DP and the DA fully support the ratification of the Abuja Treaty. The Abuja Treaty of 3 June 1991, together with the Algiers summit of July 1999 and the Sirte summit of September 1999, has far-reaching financial and legislative implications for South Africa. The importance of the Abuja Treaty for South Africa cannot be overstressed, and very important planning, decision-making and legislation will have to follow.
The objectives of the Abuja Treaty clearly indicate the far-reaching and important implications:
(a) To promote economic, social and cultural development and the integration of African economies ...
(b) To establish, on a continental scale, a framework for the development, mobilisation and utilisation of the human and material resources of Africa in order to achieve self-reliant development;
(c) To promote co-operation in all fields of human endeavour in order to raise the standard of living of African peoples, and maintain and enhance economic stability, foster close and peaceful relations among member states and contribute to the progress, development and economic integration of the continent; and,
(d) To co-ordinate and harmonise policies among existing and future economic communities in order to foster the gradual establishment of the community.
These are very important objectives, and I think we can all subscribe to them.
If one also analyses the stages of implementation of the Abuja Treaty, important consequences follow. The stages are as follows: stage 1, strengthening and creating regional economic communities, the RECs, such as SADC and Comesa, within the first five years; stage 2, stabilisation of tariff and other barriers to regional trade and sectorial integration; stage 3, the establishment of a free-trade area, after another 10 years; stage 4, harmonisation of tariff and nontariff systems, after another two years; stage 5, establishment of a common market and the adoption of common policies, after another four years; and, stage 6, the integration of all sectors, establishment of a central bank and a single African currency, setting up an African monetary union and creating and electing the first Pan-African Parliament.
The Sirte summit moved all these important consequences closer, and therefore underlines their importance.
Let me summarise the most important decisions to be made: the elimination of trade barriers, the establishment of a free-trade area and the establishment of a common market, a single African central bank, single African currency, single African monetary union and the Pan-African Parliament.
Die vraag is natuurlik nou of Suid-Afrika werklik die gevolge van al hierdie implikasies van die Abuja-verdrag wil dra. Is 'n enkele geldeenheid werklik prakties? Soek ons een sentrale bank? Wil ons een gentegreerde parlement h? Wat beteken dit vir ons soewereiniteit? Wat duidelik hier noodsaaklik is, is vir Suid-Afrika om leiding te neem en duidelike rigting aan te dui.
Daarom moet ons so gou as moontlik deel word van die onderhandelings. Die vraag moet egter gevra word of ons hierdie leiding en rigting kan verskaf. As ons in die onlangse verlede terugkyk na die Zimbabwe-debakel en die leiding wat daar verskaf is, en na die hele fiasko omtrent die MIV/vigspandemie, dan moet 'n mens wonder.
Hierdie swak leiding en verkeerde interpretasie en rigtinggewing het Suid- Afrika internasionaal onberekenbare skade berokken. Dit is waarom daar so min vertroue in die land is en waarom geen noemenswaardige investering volg nie. Dit is natuurlik ook van die belangrike redes waarom Suid-Afrika se ekonomie nie genoegsaam groei en genoeg werkgeleenthede skep nie. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)
[The question now, of course, is whether South Africa really wants to bear the consequences of all these implications of the Abuja Treaty. Is a single monetary unit really practical? Do we want one central bank? Do we want one integrated parliament? What does this mean as far as our sovereignty is concerned? What is clearly essential here is for South Africa to take the lead and to provide clear direction.
For this reason we must take part in the negotiations as soon as possible. The question that must be asked, however, is whether we are able to provide this leadership and direction. When one looks back, in the recent past, to the Zimbabwe debacle and the leadership that was provided there, and to the whole fiasco surrounding the HIV/AIDS pandemic, one wonders.
This poor leadership and incorrect interpretation and direction have caused South Africa incalculable harm internationally. That is why there is so little confidence in the country and why no investment of any significance is forthcoming. This is naturally also one of the important reasons why the South African economy is not showing satisfactory growth and creating sufficient job opportunities.]
In conclusion, I want to quote from the latest Leadership magazine, the November 2000 edition. Hopefully most of our members are getting the magazine and are reading it. Russell Loubser, the Executive President of the Johannesburg Stock Exchange says the following, and I quote:
To stop major companies taking their listing to new shores, the JSE must become competitive or align with other bourses.
I quote again:
Traditional stock exchanges will have to adapt or die. The JSE appears to be moving in the right direction.
With globalisation and the Abuja Treaty, we will have to become competitive and we will have to adapt or die. With the opportunities of the Abuja Treaty, we will have to give leadership and indicate the right direction.
The question thus is: Will the Minister and the executive lead us in the right direction at the right pace? [Interjections.] I want to urge the Minister and the executive to keep us timeously informed about the very important legislation that will have to follow and the important decisions on the Abuja Treaty. They should please give Parliament timeous warnings to play its critical role in the legislation and decisions. [Time expired.] [Applause.]
Chairperson, when one has caged an animal, and the animal has been in the cage for a long, long time, in a small place with bars and so forth, when one opens the door to that cage it takes a while for that animal to realise that freedom can be sweet and that with freedom comes opportunity. [Interjections.] Unfortunately - I do not necessarily want to attack the DP or the ACDP and the speeches that they have made here today - some of these political parties just do not see the big picture. They see the walls of the cage, not the environment around the cage.
Let me explain why I am saying this. One of the biggest problems with the way in which we are to deal with the African question and the African continent - one of the biggest issues that our forefathers such as Kwame Nkrumah and even our own comrade Nelson Mandela have tried to put forward that would be acceptable to all of us Africans, black and white - is that we need to develop an African pride. We need to make sure that the spices that we get from India are respected as much as the roots that we have dug in the bushveld of South Africa. We need to be able to develop as much pride in the medicines that our traditional healers have known for hundreds of years as we have regard for the medicines that the pharmaceutical companies of the US are trying to sell to the international market.
We need to be able to teach them that the politics of bartering and agricultural trade among communities is as complex and sophisticated as the trade that takes place on the stock exchanges of Wall Street, and so forth. These are philosophical and ideological battles that we have to fight, and the only way that Africans can fight those battles is by beginning to understand what it is about our essential Africanness that we need to capture, develop and grow.
One of the first and most fundamental principles about our essential Africanness is the fact that we are not a selfish continent, we are not selfish communities, and we believe in the simple concept of Ubuntu.
These are the things that, unfortunately, my colleague the hon member Kent Durr will not understand. It is hard for him for him to understand these things. [Interjections.] But that is entirely what a treaty such as the Abuja Treaty is based on and what our thinking forefathers, who put together a treaty such as this, were trying to do.
Sure, I personally have concerns about this treaty too, but they are not the kinds of concerns that say that I must look at the walls of the cage. They are the kinds of concerns that say: What can we do to make sure that this treaty eventually becomes the successful doctrine that we want it to become to lead Africa into the next century. That is the difference between the criticism that the ANC and people inside the ANC may make of the Abuja Treaty, and the kind of criticism one is likely to hear from the likes of Mr Kent Durr. [Interjections.]
Let me explain why I say so. The Abuja Treaty is trying to achieve some of the most noble ideals for the continent and for the moment. Let me go through them briefly.
Its objects are economic, social and cultural development for all the African economies; to increase the self-reliance and self-sustainability of African economies; to mobilise human and material resources for self- reliant development; to raise the standard of living of all the African peoples throughout the continent; to maintain and enhance economic stability; to foster close and peaceful relations between African countries; to co-ordinate and harmonise policies for the existing and future economic regions and communities in this continent; to achieve a common trade policy and common trade nontariff and tariff regimes; to establish a common market and to bring about the free movement of persons and goods, services, capital and information across this continent as if there were no boundaries.
Now some of these things can only be achieved if we look at some of the problems that might emerge. I just want to raise some concerns that I have personally about the Abuja Treaty, and I think it is a discourse that we as a country must engage in.
Some of the issues that came up in the committee are, I think, issues worth noting that need to be taken into account. We looked at a letter that was produced by the state law adviser in October 1999. One of the things that the state law adviser said at the time was that in order for us to ratify this treaty and become part of the process of this treaty, we needed to ensure - I will just quote quickly - that ``the matter be referred to all the appropriate authorities for a thorough investigation of all the implications and consequences involved''. The State Law Adviser indicated that because the treaty affected a wide spectrum of line-function departments, such a determination could not be made by one department alone, although the Department of Trade and Industry might have to play a leading role.
When we asked officials of the Department of Foreign Affairs whether, over the part year or two years, an engagement had taken place with the various line-function departments around some of these issues, they indicated that the document had been sent around and the line-function departments had all given it their broad agreement. But they did not indicate to us that line- function departments were seriously beginning to look at what kinds of legislation we need to put in place and measures we need to start embarking upon now, in order to ensure that we make the Abuja Treaty a success.
For example, there are certain things that needed some more discussion. One of the issues was that if, in the SADC community, our own back-to-back tariff and nontariffs and nontariff barrier collapses with the SA-EU discussions that we have been having, then what impact would that process and the process which we have unfolded, such as the eight-year collapse of tariffs in the SADC region, have on the rate and the pace at which other regional economic communities in Africa are working? They were not able to say to us categorically that they had taken any of those concerns into account.
Even regarding matters that are of a noneconomic nature - the International Court of Justice, foreign affairs issues, issues around science, technology and information sharing, and so forth - I do not believe that our line- function departments have looked sufficiently thoroughly at how we can achieve the objectives of the Abuja Treaty and how much more we can do to make sure that we lend support to the Departments of Foreign Affairs and of Trade and Industry and so forth to ensure that when we engage in commissions of under the Abuja Treaty or go to the African Union parliament later this year, and even next year, when further meetings takes place about the Pan-African parliament, we are able to take our country, our departments and our policy with us when we move into to that particular engagement. I do not agree with the view that has been put here that we need to ... [Interjections.] Please, that hon member had an opportunity to speak.
[Inaudible.]
Shut up.
Order! [Interjections.] Continue, Mr Moosa.
Thank you, Chairperson. We should not be an arrogant nation. Kent Durr would like us as South Africans to go and say that we would provide the leadership. We are going to go and make sure that ... [Interjections.] Does he want to meet me outside for that pizza issue? I would be happy to meet him. [Laughter.] We need to take all the resources of our line-function departments, all the resources that our economy, our parastatals and our big transnational companies can deliver, and we need to take all the resources that our scientists, technicians and so forth can deliver into the process of technology transfers, skills transfers and so forth, to make sure that we develop what we have in Africa as best we can in a reliable way. That is a very different approach from the one suggested by Kent Durr, that we go and lead the continent out of its darkness. As if this continent does not know what is good and bad and people like Kent Durr can help us find the solutions for that! [Interjections.]
If we manage to achieve even half the objectives that we have detailed in the Abuja Treaty, even half of them. We will have been able to bring together a continent that can challenge the world on almost every single issue in a manner that does not take into account the conservative way of looking at things, that does not conform to traditional methods of medicine, science, technology and so forth. [Interjections.]
Mr Chairman, on a point of order: I would like your ruling. This hon member, as chairman of the select committee ... [Interjections.] I ask for your protection, Chairman. [Interjections.]
Order! Order! Please give us your point of order.
Mr Chairman, this hon member, as chairman of the select committee, is advancing one argument after the other which I and my colleague from the New NP raised in the select committee. [Interjections.] And then he attacks us as if there were ...
Order! Hon member, I am sorry, but that is not a point of order. Will you continue, Mr Moosa.
Chairperson, the problem with Mr Kent Durr is that he only knows how to respond. He cannot lead, even though he talks so much about it. [Interjections.] I will meet him for pizza outside, if he so wishes, and I can tell him that, in fact, I would be delighted ... [Interjections.]
Order! Would you please continue with your speech, Mr Moosa?
Chairperson, on a point of order: That is the third time in this specific debate that specific members in this House have said ``shut up!'' to other members. Is that parliamentary?
Order! I did not hear that. Is there any evidence of that, perhaps, so that we can look at whether it is parliamentary or not?
Chairperson, to my knowledge the expression ``Shut up!'' is not unparliamentary. There is no precedent in which the expression ``Shut up!'' was referred to as being unparliamentary.
Chairperson, that is the respected opinion of the hon the Chief Whip, but I would like to have your ruling on it.
Order! We will look into that and then we will come up with a ruling.
Mr Chairman, can I ask the hon member a question? [Interjections.]
Order! Mr Moosa, will you please continue? Actually, I did not recognise the hon member. He just jumped up and asked a question.
Chairperson, the only thing I wanted to say to him was that his questions are usually not intelligent and I would not waste my time on them. [Laughter.] But can I proceed with a few more matters? When an hon member talks nonsense, I think it is quite parliamentary to tell him to shut up. [Interjections.]
Order! Please!
At the end of the day, and in conclusion really, I want to say that this is about the realisation of the dream that is encapsulated in the Abuja Treaty. It is a dream that those who embrace what is supposed to be meant by Africanism, will understand best. As for those who do not, I think they are going to be left behind. The hon Kent Durr was a representative of this country in London for many years. [Interjections.] He represented apartheid South Africa in London as an ambassador for many years, and he never represented Africa or the Africans there. So one cannot be derailed by this kind of opposition. I think that if we have problems with the treaty, we should look at them realistically and deal with them in that manner. [Applause.]
Chairperson, hon members, thank you for the issues that were raised in the debate, I will try to respond to some of them as best I can. Perhaps I should first say that I think we should start from the premise that we are Africans. We live on the African continent and therefore whether we join or not is not an optional thing. We are Africans.
Our destiny is tied to the destiny of the rest of the continent. [Interjections.] That is the starting point. Having said and understood it is not an option whether we join or do not join the continent, we are the continent. We are the Africans. Whatever flaws there are in this continent, they are our flaws.
I want to come back to the Abuja Treaty. The Abuja Treaty was drawn up, debated and negotiated in the absence of South Africa. South Africa could not participate fully in that debate as a member, because South Africa was still under the apartheid regime. [Interjections.] So it is a treaty that we found. It is a treaty that has lots of merit. As treaties go, I have never found one that is perfect. It does not matter where they are negotiated, whether at the UN or wherever, because these kind of documents have their own flaws, precisely because in the nature of their negotiation one has to take into account everybody's views.
Therefore, the Abuja Treaty is a negotiated document. It is not a document that reflects one view from one country. Therefore, I would like to say that we should not behave like born-again democrats. I said this in the Assembly, because some of us want to behave like born-again democrats. Born- again democrats are people who have just been introduced to democracy for the first time, and they want to preach to people who have been practising democracy for decades. [Interjections.]
South Africans should stop being arrogant and behaving like born-again democrats. [Interjections.] We are only six years old, hon members must remember. Across the border from the North West we have Botswana, which has had democracy, stability and economic development and growth for more than 30 years. So we cannot think when it comes to the continent that suddenly nobody knows anything and that it is just South Africans who have to lead.
How can we lead people who themselves have produced this treaty? We can give our views on various matters and whether we do not agree with this or that. Maybe with time and hindsight we can all say we that we want to amend the treaty. But it would be wrong to say that Africa should be led by South Africa, as if we have so much experience of democracy, and of living in peace and stability. We do not. There are things which are our strengths and which we should use, but not in an arrogant manner.
I want to answer a few of the questions. Hon Durr says the treaty is flawed. Well, it may be, but the treaty is a treaty that was negotiated. It is a treaty which if, as we implement it we think it is flawed, we as the Africans on the continent whose treaty it is will recognise those flaws and will correct them as Africans as a whole, not just as South Africa.
He asked a very pertinent and legitimate question about whether the Pan- African Parliament is not going to impinge on our sovereignty, and so on. I want to answer his question in two parts by saying that in the globalised world there are lots of sovereign rights that we cede. If we look at the WTO and how it works, a lot of sovereign rights are ceded there. When one talks about tariffs, one is ceding one's tariff harmonisation, one is ceding one's sovereign rights, but what does one get in return? That is what one has to look at.
In general and not referring specifically to the parliamentary question, there will be rights that one would have to cede in order to be part of the global village. We must accept that there will be rights that we will cede. However, having said that, the OAU has already looked at the treaty, and has looked at what sort of things we can change. On Tuesday, 7 November, there will be a meeting here in South Africa of parliamentarians in order to look at the Pan-African parliamentary protocol. This is because the leaders of the continent recognise that at this point in time we can bring up and form the Pan-African parliament now, and not wait. However, in recognising the hon Mr Durr's concern, they have said that at this point in time the Pan-African Parliament will not have legislative powers. It will have consultative powers, and it will also have ...
Order! Order!
Chairperson, on a point of order: The subject that the Minister is addressing now is the next subject on the Order Paper, and we have an agreement in the House about the debate on the Pan-African Parliament.
Hon member, I am sorry but that is not a point of order.
I just want to raise my point of order.
Chairperson, that is quite wrong. The treaty deals with the parliamentary union right throughout and this member knows he is being mischievous. [Interjections.]
Please, hon member, sit down.
Chairperson, must I sit down?
Yes, please.
Chairman, I want to raise a point of order, and you are not giving me a chance to raise a point of order.
What is your point of order?
Chairman, the point of order is that the Minister is addressing a subject that is the next subject on the Order Paper. We have an agreement in this House. She is now addressing the whole issue. We could then rather dispose of this debate, and do away with it. It was a special agreement in this House that that debate will take place next week. The Minister is not doing us a favour by talking about the African Parliament. [Interjections.]
Chairperson, now I realise why it is not parliamentary to say, ``Shut up!'' [Laughter.] I am answering a very direct question that came from the hon Durr. He addressed me as he was speaking and said ... [Interjections.] ... Shut up! He said. I must answer this question about sovereignty in relation to the Pan-African Parliament. That is all I am doing. If the hon member does not want to hear the answer, he should shut up and get out. [Laughter.] [Applause.]
I do not take my orders from you.
Nor do I take mine from you. You have no right to give them to me anyway. [Interjections.]
You must go to Nigeria. [Interjections.]
Nigeria is on the continent. I am African, so you are not scaring me when you say I must go to Nigeria.
Order! Order!
Chairperson, on a point of order ...
Sorry, Mr Moosa. I would like everything to be referred to the Chair, because the Chair is in existence.
Chairperson, there is a member of this House, the hon Ackermann, who has asked the hon the Minister to go back to Nigeria. That, I believe, is quite a derogatory statement and, in fact, might even be racist. [Interjections.] I would like the Chairperson to ask that member to please withdraw that comment. [Interjections.]
Continue, hon Minister.
Chairperson, I would like to answer the hon Durr by saying the Pan-African Parliament that is being established is not going to have legislative powers. It is going to be consultative. It will thus not impinge on the sovereignty of this country.
Secondly, it will consist of members of parliament elected by each country. There will not be a continental election. Having said that, I also want to address the question asked by the hon member.
Mr Chairman, if I could be helpful on a point of explanation. [Interjections.] It is a point of order. I would like to raise a point of order, if I may, and say to the Minister that I thank her for courtesy, but I did not raise the question of the Parliament at all.
Order! That is not a point of order, Mr Durr.
Chairperson, we have to be patient with the born-again Africans who think they can insult us by calling us ``Nigerians''. [Interjections.] We have to be patient, and we are indeed going to be patient, because we cannot wish them away. They are here to stay. We just have to take them along slowly, slowly, but surely. [Interjections.]
But this time it is on our terms.
Indeed, that is correct. There were other questions about whether the departments were looking at this and what legislation was required. Of course, once the treaty is ratified we have to look at that. What I want to say is that things are changing pretty fast, even on the continent and in its way of thinking. Some of the things that are in the Abuja Treaty may change as we go along. We are looking at that and the House can rest assured that all the departments are on board. We will obviously take into account the pace of the development of the other regional blocs.
For the past two days I have been in Zambia, for instance. They were launching their free trade area, Comesa, which is the first bloc to actually have a free trade area. It is a very important step. There may be lots of problems, teething problems in its implementation, but nevertheless it is a very important step. The pace of development is not the same, and some regions may develop faster than others, but the important thing is that each region must try and make sure that its pace, its development is such that it can indeed form a building block for the integration of the rest of the continent. We will do all the work that needs to be done.
Allow me also to respond to one or two issues that were raised. One hon member raised issues that are not quite pertinent but may be on the fringes, including Aids. The member indirectly attacked the Government on how it is handling Aids and how it is handling Zimbabwe. I am not quite sure how it really relates to the treaty, but I just want to say, from where I sit, that it is indeed a shame that we South Africans do not realise that the attack that all these people are making on our President is also an attack on our government. It is an attack on all of us, particularly on this side of the House, namely the ANC.
What is the sin of the President in all this? His only sin is that he is talking for the poor. Whether one looks at Aids or Zimbabwe, or wherever he is being vilified, he is talking for the poor. He is talking about poverty eradication, and saying that an Aids campaign cannot be divorced from a campaign against poverty. What is wrong with that? What is wrong with that? That is his only sin.
One looks at everything, and at the bottom of it one sees that the President is talking for the poor in this country, the downtrodden, the discriminated against. We talk about the Abuja Treaty and the opposition bring all those things here. Why? It is because we have people like that hon member who said to me that I should go back to Nigeria. This is my country, my friend.
Maybe you should go to Zambia.
This is my country. This is my country, and you are not going to get away with that nonsense. This is South Africa. This is the African continent. This is our continent, that you have messed up for decades and centuries. Now that we are trying to correct it, how can you have the audacity to say that we must go back to Nigeria? [Interjections.] What audacity it is to say that we must go back to Nigeria, when your mind and hands are dripping with the blood of our people who fought for this country! [Applause.]
You may laugh, but you are not really laughing. It is hurting inside, because you know. Unfortunately we have tried our best as Africans in this country to be very, very reconciliatory. When we reconcile and we say we want peace, because we want it and we want to develop, you mistake that for a God-given right.
You must stop being racist. What do you mean by saying I should go back to Nigeria? You must stop it. This country cannot tolerate racists like you. You do not belong in this country. You are a disgrace to your own people. You are a disgrace to your own people that you wanted to lead. [Applause.]
Debate concluded.
Report adopted in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
Why don't you stay ... [Inaudible.] [Interjections.]
My next trick is to come and give you a good hiding. [Laughter.]