This is intended to strengthen the principle of accountability on the part of the provincial executive.
All in all, consumer protection as a human right is extended to cover food, or meat specifically, in the introduction of this legislation. Our duty of care as a state is thus advanced. The benefits deriving from this Bill are indeed enormous. This places its desirability beyond question and deserves support. The North West province supports the passing of this Bill. [Applause.]
Mnr die Voorsitter, dit is vir my 'n besondere voorreg om vandag aan hierdie debat te kan deelneem, juis in die tyd dat ons so bewus geword het van bek-en-klou-seer, en ek wil graag ook namens ons hier in die Wes-Kaap die agb Adjunkminister en minister Didiza bedank vir die wonderlike wyse waarop hulle die aansien van Suid-Afrika in die landbou spesifiek bevorder het met die wyse waarop hulle hierdie hele bek-en-klou- seeraangeleentheid gehanteer het.
Ons glo dit sal binnekort heeltemal onder beheer wees, maar ons harte gaan uit na daardie boere wat geweldige skade gely het, en dit het 'n mens se hart geroer om te sien hoe hulle werklik gehuil het toe hulle moes toesien dat hulle vee geslag word. Ons wil die Adjunkminister en die departement en elke veearts bedank wat daar hulle bydrae gelewer het.
Die Adjunkminister het weer eens in sy toespraak die belangrikheid daarvan genoem dat ons genoeg veeartse in Suid-Afrika moet h, want daar was alreeds kommer dat ons staatsveeartse besig is om minder te word, en ons wil hom bedank daarvoor dat hy en die Ministerie die belangrikheid daarvan insien, want in 'n landbouland soos Suid-Afrika kan ons dit nie bekostig om nie genoeg veeartse te h nie. Ons wil hom bedank daarvoor.
Vleis, hetsy dit rooivleis, wildsvleis, witvleis of enige ander tipe vleis soos konyne, perde, of wat ook al is, is vir ons 'n belangrike bron van voedsel in Suid-Afrika. Vleis is egter ook 'n draer van siektes soos ons nou in menige toespraak gehoor het, en dit kan ernstige siektes aan die mensdom oordra. Die ondersoek van slagdiere voor en tydens ons slagproses is gevolglik noodsaaklik om te verseker dat slegs gesonde diere geslag word, en wel op 'n menslike wyse, sodat die vleis en ander vleisprodukte heilsaam sal wees vir die publiek en sonder besoedeling aan hulle voorsien sal word.
Daarom is dit van die uiterste belang dat daar 'n higinestandaard en riglyne om dit te handhaaf aan 'n slagfasiliteit en die personeel gestel word wat tydens die slagting en verwerking van die produkte diens doen. Dit is ook noodsaaklik dat riglyne in wetgewing vervat moet word ten opsigte van die geboue en toerusting wat in hierdie slagproses gebruik word.
Die Wes-Kaap beskik tans oor 98 geregistreerde abattoirs wat gegradeer is volgens die aantal diere wat per dag geslag kan word. Hierdie abattoirs is ongelooflik duur en hoogs gesofistikeerd, en is opgerig volgens Wet 121 van 1992. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)
[Ms A ROSSOUW: Mr Chairman, it is an exceptional privilege for me to take part in this debate today, precisely at the time that we have become so aware of foot-and-mouth disease, and I would also, on behalf of us here in the Western Cape, like to thank the hon the Deputy Minister and Minister Didiza for the wonderful manner in which they specifically promoted the prestige of South Africa in agriculture with the way in which they handled this entire foot-and-mouth disease issue.
We believe that it will shortly be completely under control, but our hearts go out to those farmers who suffered tremendous losses, and it moved one to see them actually crying when they had to watch their cattle being slaughtered. We want to thank the Deputy Minister and the department and each and every veterinary surgeon who made a contribution there.
The Deputy Minister once again in his speech mentioned the importance of our having an adequate number of veterinary surgeons in South Africa, because there has already been concern that our state veterinary surgeons are declining in number, and we want to thank him and the Ministry for realising the importance of this, because in an agricultural country like South Africa we cannot afford not to have enough veterinary surgeons. We want to thank him for that.
Meat, whether it is red meat, game, white meat or any other kind of meat such as rabbits, horses, or whatever, is an important source of food in South Africa. Meat is also a carrier of diseases, however, as we have now heard in many a speech, and it can transmit serious diseases to humans. Examination of slaughter animals before and during the slaughtering process is therefore essential to ensure that only healthy animals are slaughtered, and in fact in a humane manner, so that the meat and other products would be beneficial to the public and provided to them free of contamination.
That is why it is extremely important that slaughtering facilities and the personnel who are on duty during the slaughtering process should be subject to a standard of hygiene, and the guidelines to maintain it, during slaughtering and processing of the products. It is also essential that guidelines in respect of the buildings and equipment used in the slaughtering process should be entrenched in legislation.
The Western Cape at present has 98 registered abattoirs that are graded according to the number of animals that can be slaughtered per day. These abattoirs are unbelievably expensive and highly sophisticated, and erected in terms of Act 121 of 1992.]
The cost of these facilities and the management expected to be in place can only be achieved by larger municipalities. Animals for slaughter have to be transported long distances, which creates stress situations and the loss of meat due to injuries. This Bill aims to rectify these shortcomings by supporting a more holistic approach to meat safety. The affordability of meat hygiene services is addressed, bringing more entrepreneurs into the meat production chain. It also seeks to accommodate the needs of our diverse society and to stimulate a collective commitment to establishing a culture of hygiene and meat safety awareness.
Daar is 'n toenemende neiging om vee op plase te slag en die vleis dan per voorafbestelling aan dorpenaars te voorsien. Die slagting vind plaas sonder enige inspeksie van diere vooraf of die inspeksie van vleis om siektetoestande op te spoor. Die slagting vind ook plaas in fasiliteite wat nie noodwendig beskik oor die noodsaaklike geriewe van skoon water en vloerspasie om besoedeling te voorkom nie. Dikwels is daar ook 'n gebrek aan verkoeling van hierdie geslagte karkasse.
Die vervoer van vleis is heel dikwels ook sonder verkoeling. As boervrou sal ek nooit die eerste prentjie van my buurvrou op die plaas vergeet nie waar sy sommer daar onder die peperboom die vel van die skaap staan en afknie het. Dit is 'n gebruik wat miskien meer dikwels nog op ons plase voorkom. Om hierdie ongesonde toestande die hoof te bied, asook dieselfde wantoestande van slagtings wat ook meer dikwels in ons informele woongebiede rondom ons groot stede geskied, is dit van die allergrootste belang dat ons kleiner abattoirs moet wettig om voorsiening te maak vir die nodige inspeksie en hierdie voorligtingsdiens. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)
[There is an increasing tendency to slaughter cattle on farms and to provide the people living in towns with meat that has been previously ordered. The slaughter takes place without any prior inspection of the animals or the meat to detect diseases in the meat. The slaughtering also takes place in conditions that do not necessarily have the required facilities of clean water and floor space to prevent contamination. There is often a lack of refrigeration of these slaughtered carcasses.
The transportation of meat very often also takes place without refrigeration. As a farming woman I will never forget the first picture of my neighbour on the farm, where she simply stood under the pepper tree, skinning the sheep. This is a custom that one perhaps still often encounters on our farms. To eliminate these unhealthy conditions, as well as similar slaughtering conditions that more often occur in our informal settlements around our large cities, it is of the utmost importance that we should legalise smaller abattoirs to provide for the necessary inspection and this extension service.]
The main objects of this Bill are to provide ways and means for the supplying of disease-free and healthy meat and meat products to all levels of the population, to protect personnel working on the facilities against bodily harm and infections, and to provide for the humane handling and slaughter of animals, as well as providing for minimum standards of quality and wholesomeness of fresh raw meat, processed meat and meat products for one's own use and for sale to the public. But very important is also the training of abattoir owners and the managers and personnel of facilities, and all aspects of the maintenance of hygiene standards before, during and after the slaughter process. The Bill proposes to create a wider scope of responsibilities attached to the concept of meat safety, rather than just abattoir hygiene.
Die titel van hierdie wetsontwerp verwys daarom na die veiligheid van vleis teenoor die bestaande konsep van abattoirhigine. Veilige vleis sal dus almal in die produksieketting se verantwoordelikheid word en nie net die personeel van abattoirs s'n nie.
'n Belangrike klemverskuiwing in die wetsontwerp teenoor die bestaande wetgewing is die voorsiening om private instansies te kan magtig om deel te h aan die vleisinspeksieproses. Dit sal die staat in staat stel om sonder ekstra personeel op sy diensstaat 'n meer volledige diens te lewer. Beamptes kan dus die belangrike moniteringswerk en wetstoepassing meer doeltreffend uitvoer sonder bykomstige indiensneming van personeel.
Daar sal nie 'n uitbreiding van personeel of finansile implikasies vir die provinsies wees nie aangesien die huidige infrastruktuur wel voldoende is. Daar word egter voorsien dat daar 'n toename in beamptes nodig sal wees namate die aantal geregistreerde fasiliteite toeneem.
Die Wetsontwerp op die Veiligheid van Vleis maak voorsiening daarvoor om die beskikbaarheid van gesonde en heilsame vleis en vleisprodukte uit te brei na 'n baie groter deel van ons gemeenskap. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)
[The title of this Bill for that reason makes reference to the safety of meat as opposed to the existing concept of abattoir hygiene. Safe meat will therefore become the responsibility of everyone in the production chain and not only that of the abattoir personnel.
An important shift in emphasis in the Bill, in contrast to the existing legislation, is the provision of empowering private institutions to take part in the inspection process. This will enable the state to render a more complete service without extra personnel on its staff establishment. Officials can therefore perform the important monitoring work and law enforcement more effectively, without employing additional personnel.
There will be no expansion of staff or financial implications for the provinces as the present infrastructure is in fact adequate. It is expected, however, that an increase in officials will be required as the number of registered facilities increases.
The Meat Safety Bill provides for the extension of the availability of healthy and wholesome meat and meat products to a much larger section of our community.]
This Bill aims to do away with considerations of cost as a determining factor in obtaining safe meat. Proper meat-handling practices and the existence of hygiene awareness among all levels of the community are of cardinal importance for meat safety - not the consideration of cost. Safe meat must no longer be out of the reach of poorer people because of the lack of money.
Orde!
Jammer, dame, u tyd is verstreke. Tot volgende keer. [Order! Sorry, lady, your time has expired. Until next time.]
Baie dankie, mnr die Voorsitter, en die Wes- Kaap steun graag die wetsontwerp. [Thank you very much, Mr Chairman, and the Western Cape takes pleasure in supporting this Bill.
Mnr die Voorsitter en Minister, ek stem saam met biskop Tutu; ons het 'n wonderlike land met 'n wonderlike renboognasie. Ons het 'n nuwe demokrasie en daarom het ons definitief aanpassings nodig, ook in die Wetboek. Daar is nog ander verskille. Sommige van ons is baie, baie arm. Sommige woon in stede en groot getalle woon op die platteland, waar daar klaargekom moet word met die minimum geriewe, en dit verg groot ontberings.
Hierdie wetgewing waaroor dit vandag gaan, is nodig om 'n regstelling te maak. Die klem word verskuif van vorm na inhoud, en ons steun dit heelhartig. In die verlede was daar baie klem op die oprigting van indrukwekkende, duur strukture vir die slag van diere. Hierdie wetsontwerp fokus meer op die prosesse wat ons nodig het om veilige vleis aan ons mense te verskaf. Dit is 'n absolute noodsaaklikheid in ons land met sy diverse gemeenskappe.
Baie probeer om hulle karige inkomste aan te vul deur onder meer die slag en verkoop van vleis aan die publiek, soms met verreikende gesondheidsgevolge. Ons in die DP wil hierdie entrepreneurs al die geleenthede gee wat hulle lewenstandaarde kan verbeter. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.) [Ms E C GOUWS: Mr Chairperson and Minister, I agree with Bishop Tutu; we have a wonderful country with a wonderful rainbow nation. We have a new democracy and we therefore definitely need adjustments, also on the Statute Book. There are also other differences. Many of us are very, very poor. Some live in cities and large numbers live in the rural areas, where one must make do with the minimum facilities, and this leads to a great deal of hardship.
This legislation which is at issue today is necessary to bring about a correction. The emphasis is shifting from form to content, and we support this wholeheartedly. In the past there was a great deal of emphasis on the erection of impressive, expensive structures for the slaughtering of animals. This Bill focuses more on the processes which we need to provide safe meat to our people. This is absolutely essential in our country with its diverse communities.
Many try to supplement their meagre income, inter alia, by slaughtering and selling meat to the public, sometimes with far-reaching health consequences. We in the DP want to give these entrepreneurs all the opportunities which could improve their living standards.]
There is a clause in the Bill in terms of which, in the view of the Minister, an exemption may be granted in respect of certain areas, grades of abattoirs, owners or persons, in respect of certain kinds of animals, requiring only that the relevant MEC must be consulted.
The DP rejects this clause, and thinks it is a sweetheart clause for an all- too-powerful Government. It is of no consequences while the incumbent Minister or MECs are honourable and honest, but disastrous when the reverse proves to be the case. Bills and laws must protect us, not from the honest, but from the dishonest.
We all agree to the provisions in the Bill that must ensure public health. We are horrified at the thought that a disaster may befall us such as that in the UK, where insufficient control was exercised on the composition of animal feed. This led to the shameful outbreak of mad cow disease - shameful because animal feed containing diseased carcasses was fed to the animals. It is strongly suspected that the consumption of this product can lead to a fatal disease in human beings.
The crucial issue in the MCD saga was the lack of oversight and control. This will be the crucial issue in this and other laws. The mere publication of an Act does nothing to enforce it. The Government loves the phrases ``capacity'' and ``capacity-building''. The absence of both of these was what led to the outbreak of foot-and-mouth disease in KwaZulu-Natal. It now seems quite clear that the almost total breakdown of oversight and control over whatever happens to come from ships in harbours is what caused this outbreak.
The fact that we had legislation in place requiring the controlled destruction of such potentially dangerous products did not ensure that it was adhered to.
Ons in die DP is bekommerd oor die uitvoerbaarheid en die wil by die Regering om hierdie wetsontwerp te kan toepas. Ons s weer, in die Wetboek het dit meriete, maar gaan ons sien dat dit toegepas word? Ons kan nie dobbel met ons mense se gesondheid en die skrikwekkende finansile implikasies wat dit vir die land kan inhou nie. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)
[We in the DP are concerned about the practicability and the will of the Government to be able to implement this Bill. We say once again, on the Statute Book it has merit, but are we going to see it implemented? We cannot gamble with our people's health and the alarming financial implications which this could have for the country.]
Chairperson, Deputy Minister and members, as Gauteng we support the principles and details of the Bill. We see the Bill as an important instrument in providing a holistic approach with regard to meat safety.
In Gauteng, we recently commissioned research pertaining to illegal slaughtering, which seems to be a problem as far as meat hygiene and safety are concerned. Our definition of illegal slaughtering basically refers to the slaughtering of an animal or animals outside the confines of an area designated for such a purpose, and where the process does not comply with stipulations regarding slaughtering as required by law.
Illegal slaughtering puts at variance the interests of environmentalists, health officials, animal rights groups, traditional healers, hunters and ordinary citizens at large, which are consequently at stake.
Speaking of illegal slaughtering immediately evokes in one's mind issues related to poaching and the illegal trade in animal parts. The two represent a form of senseless slaughtering of animals.
Conservationists recently voiced concern over the illegal trade in rhino horns and ivory, as it led to the poaching of animals. Their contention was that this would result in the extinction of rare species and have long-term negative effects on the tourism industry as well as our economy. A moratorium was therefore agreed upon by neighbouring countries. Such trade should be considered illegal, since it leads to the gruesome treatment of animals.
Our research was therefore premised on the understanding that illegal slaughtering is still against the law. The location of abattoirs is still a contentious matter that has effects on the health and safety of communities.
The research revealed the concerns precipitated by illegal slaughtering, which has implications for the environment, health and the humane treatment of animals. These are some of the scenarios we wish to present.
In 1995 in Vereeniging, where residents experienced a scene of illegal slaughtering at a funeral, they were disgusted by the manner in which the animal was being killed, claiming that it was being beaten and hacked with clubs and axes. The SPCA arrived but had no stun gun to render the animal unconscious. The police were then called, but they refused to shoot the animal because in their opinion such a matter was culturally sensitive. Fortunately an old man passing by came to their rescue and killed the animal.
In 1994 a black family had just moved into what was formerly a white neighbourhood. It was immediately after the first democratic elections. They had to slaughter a cow for their cultural feast, but their white neighbours were up in arms against the slaughtering. The family concerned stated vociferously that this was a cultural practice and they were not going to stop it simply because they had moved into a previously white suburb. Police had to be called in to intervene and finally the local authority managed to settle the dispute.
With regard to a farmer who was slaughtering some of his cattle in his back yard to sell in the nearby informal settlement, we found that almost half of the residents had to be treated for unstoppable diarrhoea. Medical reports indicated that they were suffering from food poisoning.
Our support of the Bill is therefore based on it providing a framework to deal with the challenges of illegal slaughtering. The Bill does not prohibit slaughtering for cultural purposes nor restrict slaughtering outside abattoirs. However, it promotes safety through hygienic standards with regard to the end product of the slaughtered animal.
The last crucial point is that this Bill seeks to achieve the promotion of good management practices and the application of hazard analysis at critical control points at slaughter facilities in line with international trends.
As a province we are in the process of putting in place an abattoir rating scheme that will complement this Bill once it is law in order to ensure that those complying with the requirements of the law are incentivised and those in contravention are punished. This will make the law implementable, and not just a paper tiger.
Ha ke hle ke di pome, ke di etse mohatla' kgwiti morena. Etswe le kgomo ha e nye boloko kaofela. [Ditlatse.] [I will stop here, because one cannot say it all. [Applause.]]
Chairperson, hon Deputy Minister of Agriculture Prof D C du Toit, hon MECs and colleagues, it is a pity that I am speaking in the place of a member who, due to sudden changes that occurred in the scheduling of the Speakers' list, could not make himself available for this debate.
With regard to this important debate, I wish to stress the following, which must be strictly observed within the parameters of the Meat Safety Bill. Firstly, strict rules at all points of entry should be stipulated in order to avoid contaminated meat at all costs. Secondly, foot and mouth disease is a serious threat to the farming industry, hence safety measures have been taken by almost all farmers to combat the spread of the disease.
At the same time, huge losses of stock are affecting farmers seriously, as they will have a very negative impact on food supplies and the export system.
Thina, KwaZulu-Natali, siyakuncoma ukuthi lo mthetho ozokwalusa ukuphathwa kwamadela uyawahlonipha amalungelo amasiko kanye nezinkolo zabantu. Njengokuthi nje, ukuhlabela imishado, imisebenzi yamasiko nezinkolo ezahlukene akuzukuphazanyiswa yilo mthetho.
Abantu bomdabu bayakwazi ukuzicwaningela inyama engalungile. Useshilo omunye umkhulumi wathi iqatha belithathwa linikezwe isilwane, kungaba yinja nom yikati, kubonakale ukuthi akufi yini. Abantu bomdabu bayakwazi ukuzicwaningela inyama engalungile ngaphandle nje-ke uma bephethwe yindlala. Ukudla ingcuba - isilwane esizifele - kuyingozi. Kodwa-ke, umuntu olambile uzama ngakho konke ukuze abone ukuthi iyabulala yini noma cha. Kuthiwa: An empty stomach knows no law. [Isisu esilambile asazi mthetho.] Ingcuba-ke idliwa kanjalo. Yikho beyicwaninga baze bayinike izinja namakati. Basuke befuna ukubona ukuthi bangalandela yini nabo bayidle. [Ubuwelewele.]
Thina, KwaZulu-Natali, siyawuncoma lo mthetho osezithebeni. [Ihlombe.] (Translation of Zulu paragraphs follows.)
[We in KwaZulu-Natal appreciate the fact that the Bill on the administration of butcheries respects traditions and people's beliefs. For instance, the culture of slaughtering a beast on a wedding day and slaughtering a beast for religious purposes will not be affected by this Bill.
Africans can identify unhealthy meat. One speaker has said that a piece of meat was given to an animal, it could be a dog or a cat, so as to see that it did not die. Africans can identify unhealthy meat except if they are hungry. Eating the meat of an animal that has died of natural diseases is dangerous. But a starving person tries all possible means to see if it kills or not. The saying goes: ``An empty stomach knows no law.'' That is why people eat the meat of an animal that has been killed by natural diseases, and that is why they check it first by giving it to cats and dogs. They want to see if it safe for them to eat it. [Interjections.]
[We in KwaZulu-Natal applaud this Bill. [Applause.]]
Mr Chairperson, the UDM supports this Bill because the aims and objectives will enable meat consumers to access disease-free meat and meat products which will be safe and healthy for human consumption. Consumers will therefore be afforded the opportunity to enjoy their right to health, which is a basic fundamental right in terms of section 27 of the Constitution.
There are, however, a few observations I wish to share with the Minister and the House. As already mentioned, the provisions of clause 7 are the most important in the Bill. I wish to share the same sentiments with hon members.
However, I wish to submit to this House that the current appalling unsanitary conditions under which slaughtering and meat handling take place at funerals and church conferences are condoned in terms of clause of section 7(2)(a). The categories of meat consumers mentioned under clause 7(2)(a) are equally susceptible to bovine parasites such as tapeworms. The crux of the matter is that people should consume disease-free meat regardless of whether it has been bought over the counter or slaughtered for funeral or wedding purposes.
Slaughtering or handling of meat carcasses must be subjected to the same hygienic practices. Furthermore, my understanding is that abattoirs are graded from A to F. This Bill will succeed in the enforcement of stringent hygienic practices at abattoirs registered according to grades A and B, which are appropriate to metropolitan needs. Grade D and E would be appropriate to rural conditions because of the lower number of beasts slaughtered per day.
The need for the establishment of the slaughter poles for grades D and E cannot be over emphasised given the hygiene of slaughtering practices in the villages. Slaughter poles can be established at strategic locations to serve a number of villages. This will undoubtedly promote hygiene awareness. Veterinary technicians can carry out meat inspections and monitor hygiene practices at these abattoirs or slaughter poles.
Lastly, the Bill advocates the use of agencies outside the sphere of government to handle the task of meat inspection and the monitoring of sanitary conditions within slaughtering premises. This move is welcomed on the bases of the reasons mentioned in this Bill. May I, however, warn that this process or arrangement must not culminate in a situation where the abattoir and assignee agents clinch a business deal or venture ultimately prejudicing the people's right to have access to healthy meat. Otherwise, the UDM supports this Bill. [Applause.]
Ek stel die agb mnr A E van Niekerk aan die woord. [I see the hon Mr A E van Niekerk.]
Thank you very much, Mr Chairperson. You, have just become my brother in Afrikaans.
Listening to this debate it seems to me that there is a perception somewhere that this Bill is the miracle. I get the impression that this Bill is going to solve the problems of people who have to test meat in order to see whether it is poisonous or not, and that it is even going to address racism, since the hon the Deputy Minister referred to racism in certain practices. But this Bill is no instant cure at all.
Like all Bills.
The hon Deputy Minister is so right, and therefore it is very important to bring this into perspective. What is it all about?
Die eerste persepsie wat ons moet regstel is dat alle private slagfasiliteite onhiginies is. Dis mos nie waar nie. Alle slagtings op plase of in agterplase is mos nie onhiginies nie. Die ketting van daar af vorentoe is gewoonlik egter waar die probleem kom, en waar mense vleis nie higinies hanteer nie.
Dit raak mos nou 'n onbegonne taak vir 'n regering om die higine van vleis van 'n slagting af tot drie, vier, vyf dae of hoe lank ook al daarna te hanteer en die verantwoordelikheid te neem.
Dit moet dus afgeskaal word tot daar waar daar verantwoordelikheid geneem kan word.
Dan is daar twee aspekte waarna ons moet kyk. Hierdie twee aspekte is die lewendige dier en die dier nadat hy geslag is. Sekere siektes kan 'n mens waarneem voordat die dier geslag is, en daarom moet daar mense beskikbaar wees wat vooraf inspeksies doen.
'n Mens kan baie maklik sekere siektes waarneem daar waar die dier op die hoef staan; wanneer hy koorsig is, wanneer hy moeg is, wanneer hy lyk soos party van ons kollegas vanmiddag laat hier! Dit kan 'n mens van die uiterlike houding - ek wil amper s in die lyftaal - van die dier reeds waarneem. Dit is egter net die een gedeelte. Dit is ook die maklike gedeelte, maar daarna moet gekyk word.
Dan is daar egter sekere siektes wat alleenlik gedentifiseer kan word nadat die dier geslag is. Daarna moet ook gekyk word. 'n Mens kan byvoorbeeld kyk of die limfkliere vol TB-kieme is. Dit kan 'n mens nie sien in die lewendige dier nie, maar as jy hom oopsny, kan jy daardie kaasagtige sweer sien wat daar sit, en dan weet jy wat dit is. Masels, daardie lintwurmeiers wat tussen die vesels van die vleis is, kan 'n mens nie aan 'n dier sien as hy net daar staan nie. 'n Mens moet hom oopmaak en jy moet daardie weefsel sny. Daardie TB en masels kan 'n nadelige effek op die mens h as hy dit inkry.
Daar is ander problematiese siektes wat 'n mens nie op die hoef kan sien nie en wat jy ook nie kan sien as jy 'n dier geslag het nie, maar wat jy alleenlik deur bloedtoetse van die dier kan waarneem. Dit is dinge soos brusellose wat uiteindelik maltakoors by die mens veroorsaak. Dit kan alleenlik deur bloedtoetse van die dier agtergekom word, en daarom is daar programme in plek wat dit juis identifiseer, die diere doodmaak en die mense vergoed - amper soos met die bek-en-klou-seerepidemie wat ons nou het en waar dit gedoen is omdat dit die enigste manier was.
Hierdie proses was goed in plek hier in ons land, sodat brusellose- en TB- geaffekteerde melkbeeste en teeldiere byna in totaliteit onder beheer was. Nou het die agb Adjunkminister se departement, lyk dit my, se geld opgeraak of hulle het stoom verloor en daardie program is nie meer in plek soos dit was nie. Ek wil vandag 'n beroep op die agb Adjunkminister doen dat daardie program weer in onskou geneem word sodat dit hierdie wetgewing kan ondersteun en ons daarmee kan help.
Ons het net twee bekommernisse, en dit is baie kort, mnr die Voorsitter. Ek sien u wil my draadjie kortknip. Moenie!
AGB LEDE: Knip hom! Knip hom! [Tussenwerpsels.]
Daardie agb lede verwys nou seker na kortknip, en nie na die diereboerdery se tipe knip nie! [Gelag.]
Die bekommernis wat ons het, is of die departement die onderbou het. Ons is oortuig daarvan hy het nie die onderbou om hierdie wetsontwerp rrig in werking te stel nie, maar ons is oortuig daarvan dat hierdie die begin is en dat dit deel van 'n proses is.
Dankie, mnr Van Niekerk. Ongelukkig mt ek u nou knip! [Gelag.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)
[The first perception we must correct is that all private slaughtering facilities are unhygienic. Of course this is not true. Not all slaughtering on farms or in backyards is unhygienic. However, the problem normally arises somewhere along the chain from that point onwards, and where people handle the meat in an unhygienic manner.
It surely now becomes an impossible task for a government to deal with and to take responsibility for the hygiene of meat from the point of slaughter for three, four, five days, or however long afterwards. It must therefore be scaled down to a point where responsibility can be taken.
Then there are two aspects which we must look at. These two aspects are the live animal and the animal once it has been slaughtered. There are certain diseases which one can observe before the animal is slaughtered, and for that reason people should be available to do inspections beforehand.
One can easily observe certain diseases merely by looking at the live animal; when it is feverish, when it is tired, when it looks like some of our colleagues here late this afternoon! One can already observe this in the animal from the external attitude - I am almost tempted to say in the body language. However, that is only one aspect. It is also the easy aspect, but we must look at it.
However, there are certain diseases which can only be identified once the animal has been slaughtered. These must also be looked at. For example, one can see whether the lymphatic glands are full of TB germs. One cannot observe it in the live animal, but once you dissect it, one can see that caseous abscess which is there, and then one knows what it is. Measles, those tapeworm eggs which are between the fibres of the meat, cannot be observed in an animal when it is simply standing there. One has to open it up and cut that fibre. That TB and measles can have a detrimental effect on humans if they are ingested.
There are other problematic illnesses which one cannot observe in a live animal and which one can also not see once one has slaughtered an animal, but which can only be observed by way of blood tests of the animal. These are things like brucellosis, which eventually leads to Malta fever in humans. This can only be identified by testing the blood of the animal and there are therefore programmes in place precisely to identify it, kill the animals and compensate the people - almost like the foot-and-mouth epidemic which we have now and where this was done because it was the only option.
This process was firmly established here in our country, so that brucellosis and TB-affected dairy cattle and breeding animals were virtually entirely under control. It now seems to me that the hon the Deputy Minister's department has run out of money or has lost steam and that programme is no longer in place as used to be the case. Today I would like to appeal to the hon the Deputy Minister that that programme should once again be considered so that it can support this legislation and can help us in that regard.
We have only two concerns, and this is very brief, Mr Chairperson. I see that you want to cut me short. Do not!
HON MEMBERS: Cut him short! Cut him short! [Interjections.]
Those hon members are now surely referring to cutting short, and not to the type of cutting involved in animal farming! [Laughter.]
The concern we have is whether the department has the substructure. We are convinced that it does not have the substructure really to implement this Bill, but we are convinced that this is the beginning and that it is part of a process.
Thank you, Mr Van Niekerk. Unfortunately I have to cut you short now! [Laughter.]]
Chairperson, the province of peace, that is, the Northern Province, supports this Bill. Whether our peacefulness is due to witchcraft or not is a separate debate which we can embark upon later. [Laughter.] On the Meat Safety Bill, this country has finally got a Bill for Africans in Africa by Africans themselves.
The Northern Province deeply appreciates that section of the Bill which accommodates cultural and religious slaughter. That is why we say that finally we have a Bill in Africa for Africans by Africans themselves. This Bill is a source of hope for our province, and we hope that the implementation of clauses 2 to 5, the logistics thereof, will not produce a bureaucracy parallel to the administration. We are hoping, but we know it may not happen.
We are also hoping that the various categories of abattoirs referred to by the speakers before me, including the slaughter pole, will also be given the recognition they deserve. This inclusion of all types of abattoirs - slaughter poles and others - in our view as a province will, we hope, also enable all the citizens of this country to participate in the meat industry, because the laws that prevailed before kept them outside.
We also hope, regarding slaughter for research purposes, that that function will be devolved. We hope the protocol approval for that function will be devolved to the research institutions or the administration units or to ethics committees, because we think that is where the function belongs.
Concerning the training, since there is also a clause on training, we also hope that the exact outcome of the training will be specified in accordance with the SA Qualifications Authority, so that communities can know exactly at what level the graduates of that training will be functioning.
Last, but not least, regarding Schedule 1, we feel that the broad principle needs to be specified, because the varieties peculiar to certain places may not be adequately addressed in the list. [Applause.]
Monnasetilo, fa nako e ne e le teng, ke ne ke tla bua ka Setswana le Sesotho. Mme jaanong gonne re le makgabe a dipapetla, ke tla dirisa t?homi gore ke oke tse di kwa godimo fela, mme tse dingwe ke di tlogele di le jalo. (Translation of Tswana paragraph follows.)
[Rev M CHABAKU: Chairperson, if I had enough time, I would address the House in Setswana and Sesotho. But, because I am in a hurry, I shall use English to touch on the main points, and leave the rest for some other time.]
Aangesien die tyd beperk is, sal ek maar in die Engelse taal praat. [Since time is limited, I shall resort to speaking in the English language.]
Mr Chairperson, Deputy Minister, who is, after all, a Free Stater, special delegates, hon councillors of this House, for whom I have great admiration, allow me to express the reflections of the Free State province, as this Bill affects the greater part of the agricultural economy of the province on which much of life depends, especially at subsistence level.
Great concern has been expressed at the approval of a certified abattoir for economic purposes. While we commend the Bill for excluding slaughter for cultural and religious purposes, there needs to be adequate provision for slaughter and sale for economic purposes by many who have been deprived and denied of such economic ventures by past racist and sexist policies. Simply put, the Bill says that slaughtering is legal for religious and cultural purposes, but not for making an income, unless it is done at certified abattoirs, which are at present very few and far between. With the Free State being declared one of the very poor provinces, the poor and marginalised will be barred from off-street sales.
Very few cities do have an abattoir nearby. Obviously, abattoirs will also demand a fee for the slaughtering service. Provision has to be made to build extra abattoir facilities where health and safety precautions can be made available and can be effected.
It would be shocking if the truth were revealed about how many abattoirs belong to people of Caucasian background, as compared to the number owned by people of indigenous African background. Yet the latter form the bulk of those who buy and sell meat products. They are also the ones who maintain their subsistence level of living by buying and selling offal, e mala le mogodu, not of their own choice, but as a way to make ends meet.
We commend the Minister for tightening the loopholes in the definitions enshrined in clause (1)(i) to (xxv). We would like to see opportunities made available for the underprivileged through the erection and maintenance of abattoirs in rural areas and even urban areas where carnivorous demands are very acute.
The bulk of buyers and sellers of offal are very poor women and widows. Provision should also be made to encourage pupils to train in the running and owning of abattoirs in order to enhance the safety of meat and other products, be they for home consumption, export or even importation, or for human or animal consumption.
We should curb the increasing importation of subsidised meat products that are cheaper to purchase and of inferior quality, thus undercutting and killing our own domestic production of especially lamb, chicken and cold meats. What guarantees do we really have that their sources of origin uphold similar or better standards?
We commend the fact that the Bill will enhance the health and safety standards laid down for exports. The proposed control of imports and exports is laudable. Persons doing on-the-spot inspections should reflect the demographics of our motherland and their numbers should be increased to this end. We want the number of inspectors representing our own people to increase in order to compare numerically with the population in relation to the ethnic groups that make up our beloved South Africa.
Right now very few veterinarians are of indigenous origin. The statistics are bleak. Equal opportunities of employment, operation and ownership, especially for women and the youth, should be encouraged, and we should ensure that regulations are complied with and that penalties are effected.
Regarding the regulations, concerns have been expressed over clause 22(1)(d), according to which fees have to be charged for the examination of an animal, meat or an animal product. The fees are often prohibitive and restrictive. Very often people do not have the means to transport the said animal or products for inspection, nor can they afford the travel expenses to go to an inspector where the animal or products may be presented for inspection.
This tends to have unavoidable racial implications because of the past of our motherland.
Mme Moruti, nako e fedile. [Order! Reverend, your time has expired.] [Laughter.]
One minute. [Laughter.] [Applause.]
Ke maswabi, Mme Moruti. [Order! I am sorry, Reverend.]
The overall response to the Meat Safety Bill is approval and commendations to the Minister.
Order! Order! Order, hon member.
Amen! [Laughter.] [Applause.]
Amen!
Chairperson, once again a piece of legislation aimed at bettering the lives of our people is being tabled in this Chamber. It is now up to us to rise above our petty differences and face this challenge. Let us do it, because we can. Successful people do what failures do not like to do: Do it, because you can.
What is this Meat Safety Bill? There are some people who are unaware that they are buying the meat of stolen animals. [Laughter.] [Interjections.] Animals are slaughtered in unauthorised places. It is a fact. In some provinces there are many bush abattoirs, unauthorised abattoirs. [Laughter.]
People sell unhygienic meat at our pension paypoints. When opening those containers of meat, one is met by a swarm or massed choir of flies, competing or fighting to have their share. [Laughter.] Hence this legislation. Let us, as hon members of this House, please join the Minister and the department. Let us do it, because we can.
After this exercise of debating the Bill that we are engaged in, it will be illegal for people to slaughter animals in any place other than an abattoir. Facilities in those abattoirs should meet the required standards. The abattoirs will be categorised accordingly.
Abattoirs or slaughter facilities have to be registered. This is necessary to monitor activities in all abattoirs or slaughter facilities. The idea is noble. Hon members, let us do it, because we can.
The Meat Safety Bill enables the Minister to designate an officer of the department who, as we all know, is supposed to be a veterinarian. The NEO, or national executive officer, can also delegate the same powers to any officer in the department. These are the people who are going to handle registration applications for abattoirs. Of course the export and import of meat will now be closely monitored.
The inspection of slaughter facilities will be done unannounced. Officers can search premises at any time. Licenses, as we have heard, or the registration certificates of those who contravene any section of the Bill, will be withdrawn. These are not punitive measures, but corrective ones to create opportunities to better the lives of our people.
As hon members are all aware, opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work. [Laughter.] Hon members, let us do it, because we can. While it is laudable enough to leave footprints on the sands of time, it is important to ensure that they all point in a commendable direction.
Let me deal with some concerns. Will this legislation not make the rich richer and the poor poorer? Are we not indirectly enriching abattoir owners? How many of our people from the disadvantaged communities own well- equipped abattoirs? It is not yet clear who will be monitoring the NEO. What will the relationship between the NEO and the DG be? Who reports to whom? I think here we will need the support of our Minister. There is a saying that people who live in glass houses should make sure that they are fully dressed. [Laughter.]
When one looks at clause 7(2), under exemptions, we have got every reason to celebrate. It allows people to slaughter animals anywhere if it is for their own consumption or for cultural purposes. I can relate a similar unfortunate incident like the one described by Malefane. An artist from the Northern Province, commonly known as Penny Penny, bought a house in Kempton Park and invited his family and friends to come and celebrate.
He slaughtered a cow and wanted to perform some rituals. Unfortunately this did not go down well with some of the neighbours in that suburb. Within a few minutes his yard was full of police and members of the SPCA. He was instructed to tell everybody to leave and to stop partying. He was told that the laws of this country did not allow people to slaughter animals in the suburbs. When he protested, he and his mother were badly beaten up.
He was taken to the nearest police station, where he spent the whole night. [Interjections.] Let us dilute this blood to make sure that it is not that much thicker than water, because this kind of behaviour makes us sick. [Interjections.] To some people slaughtering for cultural purposes and performing of rituals are seen as barbaric. What nonsense!
Having said that, as mature politicians let us not look back in anger, nor look forward with fear. But, let us look around us with anticipation. With this legislation we are singing hallelujahs and we are thanking God.
There is no speed limit in the pursuit of excellence. Ride on! [Laughter.] In the confrontation between the river and the rock, the river always wins, not through strength, but by perseverance.
The ANC in my province mandated me to say that we support this Bill. I think hon members can also do it, because we can. [Applause.]
Order! Thank you, Kgo?i. I noticed that the hon members were enjoying your speech so I gave you one minute extra. I will not do it again. [Laughter.]
Chairperson, it is difficult to talk after having heard these brilliant rhetoricians speaking in this House today. Honesty, they simply made good speeches. Everything that I could have said has been said by all the delegates here. There was excellent preparation. I do not know whether it is our delegates who are so good, or whether it is the work done in the provinces that is so good. Perhaps it is both. It must be both. [Interjections.] Nonetheless, I extend my compliments on this wonderful debate.
I think all the aspects have been covered. I will only react to very few things, because of the hour of the day. Dr Matime said something very important. She said this was a Bill for Africans, made by Africans. I want to take my cue from there and ask what the heart of the matter is. Why will this Bill work or not work? What is the ground for this type of thing?
This type of legislation on meat and on food comes from very ancient times. There is evidence of Assyrian tablets which prescribed rules for coping with dishonest practices in the sale of food. The correct weights and measures were prescribed. There are Egyptian scrolls which prescribe rules for labelling. These are very old things. However, if one looks at the history of this matter, one sees that at the heart of all these measures was the need to control corrupt practices and reckless profiteering. That is the answer to what Ms Gouws, who has now left us, argued and criticised us about. The real problem, the problem of food health, is closely connected to reckless profiteering or not, and to honesty.
One will only get a system that really guarantees safe food in a country where people are honest. In Switzerland, a Swiss person who gets to a red robot at three o'clock in the morning will not walk over the street, even though there is no car in sight for seven miles. This is because he is complying with the law. So what one is really doing in a law like this is coping with dishonest practices, because that is the African point members have made.
Although I can tell hon members about Assyrian history, about the laws that were made in the Middle Ages in Europe to make beer pure and to make food pure, or to make cheese healthy, people were slaughtering in Africa all this time and living quite happily. [Interjections.] But why was that. It was because in African traditional communities there was a social bonding and social ruling about how one did this type of thing. People could trust one another. The same went for the old farming communities. One knew that one could eat a certain farmer's meat, but that one should not eat meat at another person's farm, because he always got his meat somewhere in the bush, or whatever. [Interjections.]
That is the point that has been made here. Hon members know what I mean.
Daardie agb lid weet tog waarvan ek praat. [Gelag.]
Mnr die Voorsitter, ek weet nie so goed soos die Adjunkminister nie!
Daar is sekere Van Niekerks by wie se plaas jy nooit vleis moes geet het nie! [Gelag.] Daar was darem goeies ook. By die Du Toits kon jy ltyd vleis geet het! [Gelag.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)
[That hon member knows what I am talking about. [Laughter.]
Mr Chairperson, I do not know as well as the Deputy Minister does!
There are certain Van Niekerks on whose farm one was well advised never to eat meat! [Laughter.] There were good ones too. One could always eat meat on the Du Toits' farm! [Laughter.]]
The point is this: Colonialism and modern industrial society destroyed that traditional decency of working with food. We now sit with our current situation. I think the word that must go out is that the success of this depends on the people. That is where hon members were quite correct. There are laws against murder and theft, but people have been stealing and murdering one another all the time. A law does not right a wrong immediately, or by itself. The success of the law will be in the way people accept and develop these practices and devil a decent society. In the end, that is one's best guarantee against a problem like unsafe food.
I believe the way the provinces are going to implement this will tell us how successful it will be. We must look at standards and norms and at exercising these functions at a national level. I think we can only succeed if there is real co-operation between the national and provincial levels. I must tell Rev Chabaku that the person who is heading the KwaZulu-Natal foot- and-mouth centre is Dr Moganjane. She is a woman and a veterinarian, and she is running that show. This shows that there can be more women veterinarians developed in this country, because I know that women care for animals and they care for food. They also have a natural talent, I have seen, for working in leadership positions in Natal, and I can only compliment the women veterinarians who have been involved in this matter.
Could I just comment on the specific question regarding the relationship between the national executive officer and the director-general. I do not think there will be any problem at all. This is a general practice, for example, in terms of the Animal Diseases Act. All these years we have had a veterinarian who was appointed the director of animal diseases, running that type of show, who had specific statutory powers.
The Minister makes the appointment and, of course, works very closely with the director-general. This person, the national executive officer, also has a line function, which is not going to be separate from the department. However, if there are any problems, I am sure then the Minister will sit with a political problem which she will have to sort out in that type of situation. However, that was a good point, I must say.
Regarding the poor getting poorer by reason of this legislation, I think there are opportunities created here. Rev Chabaku reported the Free State position, which was not accepted in the legislation, which was that for economic purposes slaughtering should have been allowed.
It is the same as in slaughtering for commercial purposes. The moment one does that, the situation becomes uncontrollable and one cannot say where one should stop. And for practical purposes that has been recognised. We have been asked by emerging businesspersons who are starting up abattoirs themselves to set the correct standards. They have been more prominent in asking for that than anybody else.
So I think opportunities are being created and, at the same time, the cultural and religious sides are being protected. But I think the basic problem is reckless profiteering. Communities must look after their own affairs. They must not allow themselves to be dictated to, regardless of the level at which they function. They must not allow themselves to be victims of corrupt practices.
I thank the House for a brilliant debate, and I commend the Bill to the NCOP. [Applause.]
Debate concluded.
Bill agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
Order! I take this opportunity to thank the Minister for engaging the House in a lively debate and for leading the passage of this important piece of legislation.