On the question by Kgoshi Mokoena whether the department has any measures in place to address the challenges identified by the Auditor-General, the answer is as follows: All government departments are now expected to participate in the National Treasury's integrated financial management system, the IFMS project, to develop and implement standardised financial management systems throughout government.
The department is involved in and participates in all different IFMS work groups. This is a long-term project, with a five-to-eight-year timeline. That will not solve the current Auditor-General qualifications in the short term.
In the short term, however, the department is embarking on an initiative with the sector education and training authority to enhance its current financial management system by creating interfaces between, for example, IFMS and Persal, to address shortcomings regarding proper audit training for inland accommodation expenses and for subsistence and travel expenses.
A project is also under way to integrate the different logistical systems within the department into one system that will produce the necessary financial management information for audit and financial statement purposes. This logistical system will also form the basis for the future IFMS to be implemented within government. Members who are in that committee will realise that the greater bulk of the budget of Defence goes to logistics. So if we solve the problem of logistics, we would have gone a long way in addressing the problems.
The department is also strengthening its internal control system by enhancing the capacity and skills of the internal audit section, thus ensuring timely identification of and addressing cases of non-compliance with policies and prescripts as well as system failure.
The accounting officer has also, through the accountability management committee, established a project called ``Operation Clean Audit'' under the leadership of the acting chief financial officer. This requires of the acting CFO to continuously engage with those managers who experience problems and assist them via dedicated teams and efforts to develop and implement robust internal controls, and to deal strictly with the cases of noncompliance.
The department is of the view that these measures will, within the next two years, improve the accuracy of its financial statements, and thus lessen the number of qualifications. Until such time as the IFMS is fully implemented, the department cannot guarantee that it will not receive any qualifications, as it is relying on manual systems to produce financial information, especially in the logistics environment. Thank you.
Sihlalo, le mpendulo kaNgqongqoshe ingiqeda amandla ngoba bengithi uma ethi kuzothatha isikhathi eside ukuthi bangatholi umbiko ofanele kodwa silinde nje, ngiphela amandla wena omkhulu. Okunye nje bathi ukwenganyelwa kwempahla yomnyango akuncomeki, ukukhipha izincwadi ezilawula ukugcinwa kwempahla kahulumeni akusebenzi kahle kanye nokuthenga izinto zomnyango nakho akukho emthethweni. Uma uNgqongqoshe engimhloniphayo ethi asilinde nje, ngizwa ngiphela amandla kodwa ngingathini. Angazi kodwa awuthi ngihlale phansi hleze angisize ngoba ngiphela amandla wena omkhulu. Ngiyabonga. (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)
[Kgoshi M L MOKOENA: Chairperson, the Minister's response is very discouraging. When he says that it may take longer to get the relevant report and we must just wait, I am speechless. Another thing they say is that the management of the department assets is not up to scratch. Government bookkeeping and procurement is not up to scratch. If the hon Minister says we must just wait, I really am speechless but what can I say! Let me sit down and maybe he will help me understand. Thank you.]
Sihlalo, ndiyavelana noKgo?i. [Chair, I feel pity for Kgoshi.] We have been having meetings to deal with the problems of accounting and dealing with the problems of the Auditor-General in the department. I could come here, Kgoshi, and give you a very beautiful picture to make you happy, but come next year, the problem will not be solved. It's a problem that has been there for a long time. Unfortunately, there is also a problem of capacity, which we are also dealing with. I am very sorry that I am giving you bad news, but I also have to be honest rather than say things that I know are not possible. You know the seriousness of lying to Parliament. That would be very serious. [Laughter.] I don't want to come and tell you lies. It's something I would like to avoid. Besides that, my nature, as Ngconde was telling me, does not allow me to lie.
I am saying that these are the problems. For instance, we are busy now with a system to have a proper system of dealing with what we call the reconstruction of our financial systems, especially at the logistics level, but even with that, we gave it to our guys; it took them a year. When they were supposed to report to us, we found that what they were reporting to us was not as good as we thought it was.
Now we had to go out and say that we should get outside assistance. So, Kgoshi, unfortunately, we would be very happy to give you good news and say there will be no audit qualifications but the truth of the matter, from what we can see, is that unless something dramatic happens, we are going to take longer than we would like to sort out the issue of audit qualifications in the department.
Kumbuzo wokulandelisa mama, ndingathi kutata u-Goerge, umKhosi wezoKhuselo ngumbutho apho kusebenza umthetho kunye nengqeqhesho. Nto leyo ke ithetha ukuthi xa kukho umthetho nengqeqesho amajoni afundiseka lula izinto ezintsha, ngoba kaloku athobela umthetho ovela ngasentla okanye they always obey the command ngabula makhumsha. Ngoko ke umbuzo wam uthi: yintoni eyenza ukuba kube lula ukuba kulahleke izinto, ngoba imipu iyalahleka, nazo zonke ezinye izinto ngokunjalo. Akukho mntu ukwazi ukuphendula ngezi zinto.
Umbuzo wam ke uthi ulawulo lulahleke xa kuphi. Ngowokuqala ke le tata u- George, owesibini ithi, umba wexesha localucalulo, lokungabikho kweempendulo -ngoba kaloku kwakukwavula-zibhuqe phaya, kungekho unqanda omnye- unegalelo elingakanani kule ngxaki eninayo yokungabikho kweempendulo okanye i-lack of accountability, ngoba nigcine imali eninzi phaya emkhosini, ephantsa ifike kwizigibi zezigi ezingama-90. Okokugqibela, mandithi kukho amasebe ekuthiwa incwadi zabo zime kakuhle xa ziphonongwa - besisiva uSekela Mphathiswa ngoku esithi iBhodi eNcedisa ngenkonzo zoMthetho okanye iincwadi ze-Legal Aid Board zime kakhuhle - ngoko nina anifundi na kwabanye abantu, ngoba thina sakhula kusithiwa, "each one teach one".
Niyithathe loo nto nize nayo apha kumKhosi woKhuselo ukuze sizibone zizintle iincwadi zawo, kwaye namajoni efunde into entle. Ndiyabulela.
USEKELA MPHATHISWA WEZOKHUSELO: Mandivume ukuba emkhosini sisebenza ngolawulo nomthetho kodwa ... (Translation of isiXhosa paragraphs follows.)
[Mr S SHICEKA: Madam, in the follow-up question I want to say to the hon George that the Defence Force is a structure where control and discipline is used. That means then it should be easy to teach soldiers new things because they know how to always obey the command. Therefore my question is: What makes stealing easy in that environment of control and discipline because not only guns but also other things get lost as well? No one accounts for them.
My question then is: Where is the control? That is the first one to the hon George. The second one is how much effect does the lack of accountability, which happened during the apartheid times - because accountability during that time was not an issue at all -have on the problem that you have now because you have too much money - close to R90 billion there. Lastly, there are departments that are said to have unqualified audits - we were listening to the Deputy Minister now, saying the Legal Aid Board had unqualified opinions - so are you not learning from other departments because when we were still growing up we were told "each one teach one."
Copy that and come to implement it here so that we can see some improved practices as the Defence Force or the soldiers have adopted best practices. Thank you.
Let me agree that at the Defence Force we use command and control strategies, but ...]
... command and control are mainly within the military structures. If you talk about military discipline, I can say with certainty that there we excel. But once you come to questions of finance and other things that are more administrative, you would find that it's not only soldiers that are involved. We've got a big component of our staff who are, what we call in Defence, civilians. Those are the people who deal with these things.
I must also agree with you. One of the problems we have is what we inherited. You know, we are at the moment trying to change Defence to be accountable. If you look at soldiers generally, by their nature, they don't want to account to civilians and it's not only in South Africa.
All over the world, they don't like to account to civilians. It's the nature of soldiers all over the world. In fact, sometimes you find that soldiers have a low opinion of civilians. They think that they can do things. Now we have come up with that but if you look at the past, the Defence Force in the past was a law unto itself. That was what was happening in this country. It was completely a law unto itself. It was untouchable. That was why, even with the budget, they did not account for it and they did as they liked with the money.
We have to change that situation, and changing old habits is not one of the easiest things. We are dealing with issues where things disappear but if you look into that, you will see that on that score it's become smaller and smaller. I mean, there were ridiculous things where you will find that we send money to Burundi and when it comes back, some of that money is fake so a change had been made.
We have tried to tighten all those things and we are moving. But, as I am saying, we are dealing with a department and you must realise that the Department of Defence is very big. In fact, it is like a government on its own.
There is no department that does not exist in Defence. Justice, health, social order, social development, police departments, etc, are all there. Also, if you look at the services, we've got three military services. The fourth one is the health services. They all run on their own model. So it's a very complicated department and to change what is wrong is not as easy as we would like it to be.
That is why, as I said, we would be lying if we said that things are going to be sorted out overnight because it's a very complicated department. I've already told you about the lack of accountability and where it comes from, but of course, you must understand that these days it's not easy to always blame those of the past.
Even those of today quickly learn and you will find that it is not only people from the past who were involved in the SA Defence Force who are involved in some of these things. Even the new guys, some of them coming in from outside or some of them who have just joined now quickly learn because, normally, in life it's very easy to learn bad habits.
Incentives to prevent exodus of senior prosecutors to the magistracy
147. Mr S Shiceka (ANC) asked the Minister for Justice and Constitutional Development:
Whether there are any incentives to prevent the exodus of senior prosecutors to the magistracy; if not, why not; if so, what incentives?