Madam Speaker, it is an interesting question, because he is so confused! Hon Groenewald, with respect through the Speaker to you, you are talking (a) about what process, and (b) what method. In actual fact a process is just a particular method to attain a certain objective and a method is a procedure of attaining an objective or a result. So you are actually asking the same question twice. If I may say, it creates the impression of being quite erudite, but I think it's destitute of knowledge.
The answer is obviously that many documents give explanations of the processes that are being followed. You can consult the White Paper on Land Policy, the Constitution itself - section 25(6) - and you can consult the Provision of Land and Assistance Act, Act 126 of 1993 as amended in 1998. And, as a Member of Parliament, having sworn to obey the law, you, of course, support the Provision of Land and Assistance Act, where you will find all the procedures and all the powers that government has in regard to land reform. All of these will be used. They were put in place in 1994 and dynamically adapted from time to time to address policy and legal gaps and, of course, attended to on a continuous basis. If you see anything addressed, like it was at the Land Summit, of course, the necessary steps will be taken to address those.
Many techniques are available to the government. Methodologically, there are differences between a demand-led approach and a supply-led approach. More and more, we are following a supply-led approach. Thank you, Madam Speaker.
Agb Mev die Speaker ... [Hon Madam Speaker ...] I can't blame the hon Deputy Minister if he sounds a bit confused. I just hope that his policies are not as confused as he sounds.
Maar Mev die Speaker, ek kan nie die agb Adjunkminister kwalik neem nie. Die vraag is verkeerd op die vraelys. Die oorspronklike vraag wat die Vryheidsfront Plus gevra het, verwys na wat gaan gebeur nadat die 30%- grondverdeling plaasgevind het. Dit lyk my ons het bietjie 'n probleem met vertaling by die administrasie. Maar miskien kan die agb Adjunkminister vir ons s wat die proses is - ek wil nie in `n debat betrokke raak met die agb Adjunkminister oor die proses nie - nadat die 30% bereik is.
Wat gaan u dan doen? Want die agb Minister het ges dat grondhervorming nie dan gaan ophou nie. Ek dink die landbousektor in Suid-Afrika is geregtig om te weet wat gebeur n die 30% afgehandel is en of dit nog die moeite werd is om in Suid-Afrika te boer al dan nie. Miskien kan die agb Adjunkminister vir ons daarop antwoord. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)
[But Madam Speaker, I cannot blame the hon Deputy Minister. The question is wrong on the Question Paper. The original question submitted by the FF Plus asked what was going to happen after the 30% land distribution has occurred. It appears as if we have a bit of a problem with regard to translation at administrative level.
But perhaps the hon Deputy Minister can tell us what the process is - I do not want to get involved in a debate with the hon Deputy Minister regarding the process - after the 30% mark has been reached.
What are you going to do then? The hon Minister said that land reform is not going to stop then. I think the agricultural sector in South Africa is entitled to know what is going to happen once the 30% has been distributed and whether it would still be worthwhile to farm in South Africa or not. Perhaps the Deputy Minister could give us an answer.]
Thank you, Speaker. Well, you are going a bit too far into the future, I would say.
U gaan bietjie ver in die toekoms in. Kyk, u moet asseblief verstaan dat die 30% `n teiken is vir `n bepaalde tydperk. Dit kan nie die einde van die proses wees nie. Jy kan nie s dat, met 'n bevolking van x teenoor y - op die oomblik - jy op 30% gaan stop nie. Dit is net `n teiken wat ons gaan behaal en ek dink grondhervorming is 'n kontinue proses wat baie, baie lank nog sal aanhou tot die regte getalle bereik is.
Sedert die vorige Minister in 1999 in die pos gekom het, word daar ekonomies gedink, en u weet dit goed. Die samewerking wat ons met landbou- unies het, is in die algemeen daarop gerig om ekonomies-vatbare eenhede te kry.
Eintlik moet ek vir u s dat daar `n ander vraag van u is wat bietjie verder aan is - dis vraag 246 - wat eintlik basies dieselfde vraag is as wat u nou vra. Die antwoord daarop is ook "Nee", maar ek dink nie ons gaan vandag daarby uitkom nie.
Die hele punt is dit: Jy kan nie in Suid-Afrika s soveel hektaar gaan jy per persoon uitdeel nie, want die land verskil soveel. Jy kan wel van gemiddeldes praat en dit is hoofsaaklik vir begrotingsdoeleindes. Nee, ek dink nie hierdie proses sal ooit by 30% kan ophou nie. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)
[You are going a bit too far into the future. You have to understand that the 30% is a target for a specific period of time. It cannot be the end of the process. One cannot say, with a population of x to y - at the moment - that one is going to stop at 30%. It is merely target that we want to reach and I think land reform is a continuous process that is going to continue for a long, long time until we reach the correct figures.
Since the former Minister came into the position in 1999, we have started to think in terms of economics manner and you know that very well. The co- operation that we have with the agricultural unions in general is aimed at getting economically viable units. I really have to point out that there is another question posed by you further down on the Question Paper - it is question 246 - that asks basically the same question that you are asking now. The answer to that is also "No", but I do not think we will get to that today.
The point is: In South Africa one is not able to say that you are going distribute so many hectares per person, since the country differs so much. One is able to talk about averages and that is primarily for budgeting purposes. No, I don't think that this process can ever stop at 30%.]
And I'm sure that is the policy of this government, that we will have a continuous land reform process. Also, agriculture itself must be attended to. Our production in this country, as you well know, must increase considerably. Thank you, Madam.
Mev die Speaker, agb Adjunkminister, een van die doelwitte van die Departement van Grondsake is die herverdeling, teen 2014, van 30% landbougrond wat tans in besit is van blanke boere. Of dit nou 30% of meer is, is die belangrike aspek dan hier nie juis die 30% of meer nie, en nie sodanig die datum nie. Watter verdere stappe sal geneem word om landbouhervorming en die herverdeling van grond in Suid-Afrika te bespoedig? Dankie. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)
[Mr C H F GREYLING: Madam Speaker, hon Deputy Minister, one of the aims of the Department of Land Affairs is the redistribution, by 2014, of some 30% of agricultural land that is currently owned by white farmers. Whether it is 30% or more is the more important issue here not the 30% or more, and not necessarily the date? What further steps will be taken to speed up agricultural reform and the redistribution of land in South Africa? Thank you.]
Madam Speaker, that question was also put in Afrikaans, if I remember correctly.
Nee, inderdaad, enige landsbestuur plaas datums op enige proses. Jy moet datums plaas, want andersins het jy nie beheer oor die prosesse nie. Maar dit is nie te s dat jy daardie datum presies op die dag en uur gaan bereik nie. Die belangrike punt op die oomblik is dat ons minstens binne hierdie periode daardie 30% kan behaal. Dit is nog eintlik `n baie klein minderheid teenoor wat die behoefte regtig is in hierdie land. Maar dis ook `n baie ingewikkelde en moeilike proses. Omdat enige landbouaktiwiteit op langtermyn kapitaalbelegging berus, bou mens dit op oor tyd en jy probeer ten minste om daardie 30% te behaal. Dit is nog glad nie die einde van die pad nie en dit kan nie die einde van die pad wees nie. Baie dankie.
Speaker, hierdie vraag is na aanleiding van `n vraag wat ek aan die Minister gevra het en toe het sy aangedui dat die demografie van die land weerspiel moet word in grondbesit ten opsigte van ras en geslag. Ook het sy ges: "The needs of the most needy must be addressed." Nou my vraag is: Ons het nou redelike goeie voedselsekuriteit. Hoe gaan hierdie intensies van die Minister voedselsekuriteit in die toekoms raak, veral in die lig van die ho persentasie grondhervormingsprojekte wat nie slaag nie? Baie dankie. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)
[No, indeed, any government places dates on any process. You have to impose dates, otherwise you have no control over the processes. But that does not mean that you will reach that date at the exact day and hour. The important point at present is that we should attain this 30% at least within this period. It is actually a very small portion when compared to the actual need in this country. But it is also a very complicated and difficult process. Because any agricultural activity relies on long-term capital investment, one builds over time and one tries, at least, to reach that 30%. It is not the end of the road at all and it cannot be the end of the road. Thank you.
Speaker, this question is as a result of a question I posed to the Minister and she indicated that the demographics of the country should be reflected in land ownership with regard to race and gender. She also said: "The needs of the most needy must be addressed." My question is therefore: We currently have reasonably good food security. How will these intentions of the Minister affect food security in future, particularly in the light of the high percentage of land reform projects that do not succeed? Thank you.]
Speaker, food security will have to stay in place. Except for some production problems that we have at the moment - for example, too little wheat production on account of climatic conditions - we are working towards all these projects being sufficiently supported. Quite a lot of support programmes are in existence.
My point will still be this: I think that Act 126 of 1993, as amended in 1998, should be implemented with greater intensity, because it is a support programme and a land acquisition programme. We can do it. We can get good production on emerging farms, as we have shown in many cases. It is really the case. You can look at some excellent projects that have been done together with Grain SA and together with Sugar SA in Mpumalanga in the Sunday River Valley. These are excellent, successful projects and it can be done. We can even attain large numbers and really bite off this 30% and then continue after that.
I am sure that when you start asking whether this is a quota system, that is not what this is about. In the end, the reasonable approach is to reflect your population composition. There's no doubt about it: That is the policy of this governing party and that is what we are going to get and I'm sure no one and nothing with regard to our food production will be affected. We will manage it. Thank you, Chairperson.
Utilisation of liquefied petroleum gas by households
315. Mrs B Tinto (ANC) asked the Minister of Minerals and Energy:
Whether liquefied petroleum gas (LPG) as an alternative source of energy is making inroads into the household market; if not, why not; if so, what is the extent of its utilisation by households compared to other forms of energy? NO2094E
Madam Speaker, I thank the member for the question. The response to the question is: At this stage we cannot say that liquefied petroleum gas, LPG, is making inroads into the household markets, mainly because the total annual growth, which is at 15,4% as we speak from 9 percent in 2003, emanates mostly from the industrial sector and not households.
The department has undertaken pilot projects on the use of liquefied petroleum gas by households, and we are piloting the project in Tembisile in Mpumalanga and in Atteridgeville in Gauteng, to gain valuable information to properly promote LPG, should it be required.
What is important for us is to appreciate that central to the use of an energy carrier is its reliable, availability, accessibility and affordability. When it comes to LPG, given that South Africa does not have natural gas, we still have a challenge as far as availability and affordability of LPG goes. However, we still have to assess all of these and the pilot project is meant to begin that process. Thank you very much.
Thank you, Madam Speaker ...
Enkosi Mam' uSonjica ohloniphekileyo ngempendulo yakho ecacileyo, umbuzo wam olandelayo uthi okokuqala, ingaba la malinge -pilot projects ayakuphunyezwa nini na, okwesibini ingaba ixabiso le-liquid petroleum gas okanye iLPG nalo nilijongile na nilisebe, ngoba abantu abaninzi abahluphekileyo abafikeleli kakuhle kula maxabiso nanjengokuba ubusele uthethile ngokufikeleleka kwamaxabiso- affordability. Leyo yenye ingxaki ye- LPG le yala maxabiso.
uMPHATHISWA WEZIMBIWA NAMANDLA: Enkosi lungu elibekekileyo, lo mcimbi wokuphanda ngokusetyenziswa kwale LPG sijonge ukuwuxovula kwi-Summit esiza kuba nayo apha kuSeptemba okokuqala, kodwa siza kuyiqulunqa yonke le nto kunyaka ozayo phambi kokuba kuphele lo nyaka-mali sikuwo. Ngoko ke siza kube sibuyela apha ePalamente size kunika ingxelo yokuba ezo zifundo sizifundileyo zisimisa ndawoni na. Eneneni abantu abahlelelekileyo kunzima kubo ukusebenzisa i-LPG ngenxa yexabiso layo.
Njengoko benditshilo ukuba asinayo irhasi apha eMzantsi Afrika kufuneka ke ukuba siyithathe kwamanye amazwe. Siyithenga kwamanye amazwe, sixabane noMnu Trevor Manuel ngoba kaloku lo nto yenza ukuba ixabiso ezincwadini ngakuthi -balance of payments linyuke size sibe nemali eninzi esiyisebenzisayo ngokuthenga kumazwe aphesheya izinto ezinje ngerhasi.
Lo nto ekugqibeleni iphelela ekubeni mna ndingumthengi kufuneka ukuba ndiyihlawule loo nto. Abantu ke abahlelelekileyo abasebenzisa le rhasi enyanisweni bathi bakujonga iparafini nerhasi bakhethe kwaparafini nangona inobungozi ngoba yeyona nto bakwaziyo ukuyithenga ngemalana abanayo. Ngoko ke eli xabiso le-LPG eneneni liza kuba ngomnye wemibandela esixoxa kakhulu ngayo ukwenzela ukuba sincedisane nabantu abahlelelekileyo ukwenzela ukuba bakwazi ukuyifumana le rhasi. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraphs follows.)
[Mrs B TINTO: Thank you, hon Sonjica, for your clear answer. My next question is, firstly, when will the pilot projects be completed? Secondly, has the cost of liquefied petroleum gas, LPG, been considered by the department because many poor people cannot really afford these costs as you have already spoken about affordability, which is another problem with LPG?
Thank you, hon member. Investigating the use of LPG will be discussed in a summit that we will hold for the first time in September but we will extensively discuss this matter next year before the end of this financial year. We will come back to Parliament to give a report on what we have learnt and where that puts us. In reality, poor people find it difficult to use LPG because of its cost.
As I said, we do not have gas in South Africa and we have, therefore, to get it from other countries. We buy it from other countries and we always clash with Mr Trevor Manuel because that increases the balance of payments because we have to use a lot of money to buy things such as gas from overseas countries.
This in the end leaves me as a buyer having to compensate for that. In truth, when poor people who use gas compare it with paraffin, they choose paraffin even though it is dangerous because it is what they can afford with the little money they have. The cost of LPG will be one of the items we will seriously discuss in order that we can assist poor people to afford to buy gas.]
Madam Speaker, I understand the argument concerning the balance of payments, Madam Minister, and it is all good and well to implement and spearhead a campaign to make LPG appliances available to the public, but it quite honestly defeats the objects of the exercise when we as a country run out of LPG, as happened earlier this year. What, hon Minister, are you doing to ensure that the supply of LPG will not run out and is available at all times, particularly in light of the fact that it should be available to the poor? Thank you.
Firstly, the study that we are conducting will ensure that we know the demand in the market, but we are also looking at our own capacity to supply the product. It is a challenge that we don't have gas, and it is still a challenge.
We are going to import it. We need to know to what extent people will use it when we have imported it. Otherwise, it would be a futile exercise for us to import and not get the market. I think it's important for us to do this feasibility study, and get our facts correct before we can move forward in terms of distributing the LPG. It's important as one of the energy sources in South Africa, for us to be able to meet our security of supply of energy.
Resources for local economic development and progress made in this regard
322. Mr S M Rasmeni (ANC) asked the Minister of Trade and Industry:
(1) Whether his department has allocated enough resources to its agencies, like Seda, Khula and NEF, for them to execute their mandate for local economic development; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details; (2) (a)what successful projects have been launched in the poorest provinces, (b) what progress has been made with regard to local economic development across the country and (c) what are the major constraints in this regard?