Chairperson, hon members, the South African Police Service Amendment Bill and the National Prosecuting Authority Amendment Bill jointly effect the establishment of a new, integrated division in the SAPS to prevent, combat and investigate national priority crimes.
Firstly, I wish to thank the Select Committee on Security and Constitutional Affairs for the role it played in the development of the Bill now being considered. Normally the committee would only become involved in the consideration of a section 75 Bill after adoption thereof by the National Assembly.
In the case of this Bill, the committee was part of all the deliberations, including the public hearings all over the country and the public hearings in the joint committee that consisted of the Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development and the Portfolio Committee on Safety and Security. Despite this, the committee interrogated all aspects thereof afresh, intensively and critically, once it started deliberations on the Bill.
The committee also allowed further submissions on both Bills by the Institute for Democracy in South Africa, Idasa, and the Centre for Constitutional Rights. It also allowed these institutions to make oral submissions, although the issues raised were also deliberated upon in the joint committee.
In particular, I appreciate the fact that the committee requested a report- back on the implementation of the Bill and that the committee undertook that, if there are going to be challenges, they recommend that additional resources be given to the new directorate to conduct its functions efficiently. The committee also recommended some amendments to further improve the text.
We must emerge victorious in the battle aimed at the realisation of the safety and security of all South Africans. The battle against organised crime and crime in general must be won. Defeating crime is in the best interests of our democratic transformation. The just dispensation we have entrenched is based on the principle of equality, including equal access to peace and security as an aspect of the realisation of the goal of a better life for all. Our commitment to the safety and security of every South African has, over the years, found expression in the many interventions we have made to strengthen our capacity to defeat the scourge of crime.
The Bills before the House represent a continuation of this effort. They take our fight against organised crime to higher levels. They will enable us to rectify weaknesses in our system while ensuring better organisation and utilisation of our human and material resources.
Bertrand Russell once said:
What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires - desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinise it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence.
Mr Bertrand Russell lived in a different time from ours, thus his reference to "man", as you would have noticed, when referring to human beings. Patriarchal nuances aside, opposition parties would derive great benefit from a sincere consideration of Mr Russell's words.
Despite the progress that has been made in many areas, government's review processes indicated the need to realign state entities mandated to investigate and combat organised crime. The Directorate of Special Operations, DSO, was a new and innovative development in the fight against organised crime. It included prosecutors, detectives and intelligence operatives in one unit - powerful, no doubt about that. But this combination created its own problems. All police units are monitored by the Independent Complaints Directorate, ICD. However, the DSO was under the National Prosecuting Authority, NPA, and could not be investigated by the ICD. The intelligence-gathering capacity of our agencies is monitored by the Inspector-General of Intelligence. However, the DSO was not covered by this framework.
Our firm commitment to the fight against crime must find expression in resolute action. We have to address the issues of poor co-operation and co- ordination that have been revealed in practice. We have to remedy issues of duplication and parallel investigations. Failure to do so will only benefit criminals. Prosecutors need to be independent from investigators so as to better exercise proper balance in their decisions to prosecute or not and to ensure the realisation of the principle of separation of functions.
There has also been what some have referred to as the "cherry-picking" of cases - a preoccupation with certain kinds of crime, with the result that other crimes were inadvertently ignored. The previous arrangements also resulted in a situation where units which did not report their successes to the media were unjustly perceived as poor performers. A situation like this poses potential dangers.
As we traverse along the transformation path, we continually gain experience and insight into the nature of the reality we seek to change. This necessitates a continual evolution of our crime-fighting strategies, entities, arsenal and programmes. We have recognised that, because of its nature, organised crime requires that we address it through a multipronged, well-equipped and resourced unit. Through the establishment of the Directorate for Priority Crime Investigation, DPCI, we shall take our capacity to fight organised crime to a higher level. Practice will indeed reveal areas to be improved. However, the collective experience, resources, commitment and unity of purpose that will already underpin the unit will ensure a very firm and effective beginning.
The Bills before us provide for, among other things, a smooth transfer of personnel. This is the task that the Minister for Justice and Constitutional Affairs and the Ministry of Safety and Security are seized with.
We must again assure the people of our country that no cases will be lost. Once the Bill is passed, investigations of the Directorate of Special Operations, DSO, shall be dealt with as if the Act had always been in force. The enactment of the South African Police Service Amendment Bill will enhance our capacity to prevent, combat and investigate priority crimes. We shall identify and preserve the positive lessons borne of our various experiences.
It is to be expected that the initial process of merging our experiences may contain some aspect of pain. There is, however, no doubt that the resultant sense of unity will be in the long-term interests of the fight against crime in our country, and it will therefore bring us closer to the realisation of the goal of a better life for all.
We must commend the profoundly democratic manner in which the Bills on this matter have been processed. In fact, this is one piece of legislation that took this long because of the thorough consideration Members of Parliament attached to it.
We congratulate Parliament and its committees on the thorough effort they put into the processing of the Bill, that is, both the select committee and the portfolio committee. The vibrant discussions have enriched our understanding of the challenges we face. The ideas that emerged have become our national intellectual assets, and they have enriched the Bills and nourished our capacity to navigate our own way into the future.
Some in our society asserted a view that some Members of Parliament should recuse themselves from participating in processes relating to these Bills. It is fascinating that such moral rectitude never arose when we enacted legislation to outlaw apartheid on the basis that many of the participants had not only benefited from apartheid, but had actually also been the architects of some of the legislative framework. The rejection of the Hugh Glenister applications by our courts is a confirmation that the principle of separation of powers is well entrenched in our country.
Freedom includes freedom from fear of criminals and criminality. We shall do all we can. We invite all South Africans, in all their areas of social activity, to flex their collective muscle and work with the organs of the criminal justice system to bring about better, safer and secure communities.
We are progressively giving life to the demand of the Freedom Charter that "There Shall be Peace and Friendship!" Thank you. [Applause.]
Just before Kgoshi Mokoena takes the podium, let me correct myself. I've called Order Number 4 only; I should have said Orders Number 4 and 5 will be debated together. It is one debate.
Chairperson, welcome to the senior House my two dynamic Ministers. Hon members, colleagues, comrades and friends, when doing our oversight function in provinces, people complain that the crime in our country is very high.
As individual MPs, addressing our own branches in various constituencies, the same question would arise. When attending social gatherings or church services, the question we are always asked is: What are those measures that you are putting in place to fight crime?
The two Bills before this House are a direct response to all those questions. Contrary to what opposition parties want people to believe, these Bills address organised crime in an integrated, co-ordinated, and focused manner. With these Bills we are creating a unit that brings together the best people for the job. In these units we are bringing together people with experience and know-how when it comes to organised crime.
All these ideas came as a result of the intensive process of public hearings and inputs made by various political organisations. During the public hearings there were concerns that were raised by people. My colleagues will address those, but let me, in passing, just touch on a few. There are people who think the Directorate of Special Operations, DSO, or Scorpions as it is commonly known, is a panacea or zifozonke. Hence those concerns that were raised and identified by our people.
There are some members of the DSO who accessed classified information whilst they didn't have clearance certificates or were not vetted. The notorious Hollywood style used when effecting arrests was questioned by our people. The head prosecutors were at the same time investigators. Hence they were compromising the separation of powers between the investigator and the prosecutor. Again, the illegal gathering of intelligence was one of the issues - if people would care to listen.
The notorious plea bargaining with drug lords, as was rightly said by the hon Minister, is one of the issues that was raised by people. All of this proves that the Scorpions were not a sacred cow. As I said, my colleagues will dwell on this one, so let me just leave it at that.
As the committee in this House, unfortunately, we didn't win this one, but our fear is that you cannot have someone who becomes a player and referee at the same time. Hence, in our report we are saying that this must be followed up; it must come back to Parliament again and let's look at this issue.
The directorate we are establishing will be headed by the deputy national commissioner. This will not be just another ordinary directorate. The head of this unit will be appointed by the Minister and the staff that are going to be appointed in this directorate will comprise people of the highest integrity. To make sure we don't appoint unwanted elements in this directorate, those joining it will have to undergo a vetting or security clearance process. Members will remember that there are many officials working in the DSO who were arrested for corruption.
Hence it is also proposed that members of this directorate have to declare their financial interests, together with that of their family members who depend on them or stay in the same household. Those family members must be those who are dependent on them. To avoid having members in this directorate who serve as investigators and prosecutors at the same time, the Bill provides that the directorate can appoint legal officials who will ensure the multidisciplinary approach which other parties would like to portray as having been compromised.
I know opposition parties are gearing up for their election campaigns; hence it is so difficult for them to separate the facts from fairytales. We have been told many a time by opposition parties that the Scorpions are the best crime-fighting unit we have ever had in our country.
Let me give you a few statistics of the job that has been done by our police. What worries some of us is that some parties want to portray a picture of the SAPS as just a bunch of people who cannot think. They were ridiculed by some members of the opposition, but guess what? When they encounter any problem in their families, or by their family members, they rush to the same police to ask for help.
Let's remove this myth that the only success story in crime combating can be attributed to the Scorpions. Yes, I am one of those persons who is not shy or ashamed to give credit where credit is due. I want to thank members of the DSO for doing such a good job in many of their cases, except for those mentioned earlier on.
If I wanted to be naughty, I could suggest that we adjourn the debate and ask for all the cases that are before court and those that are still being investigated by SAPS, versus those that are before the Scorpions. You will be shocked. Yes, let the opposition parties make politics, but they must not be economical with the truth. The conviction rate that comes through the police cannot be compared with anything.
To illustrate this point, I asked my colleague in the NA, Anneliz van Wyk, to assist with these statistics that were in her possession. For those in the opposition parties who care to know, we have organised crime units in the SAPS. In the past financial year, a total of 154 leaders of organised crime were identified and, of those, 131 were arrested. In this financial year, R49 million worth of assets were forfeited to the state through investigations by the SAPS.
Just to give a clear picture, let me give this House information on some of the seizures that were done by the SAPS. Vehicles worth R23 million were recovered; R8 million worth of stolen property was recovered; cigarettes to the value of R11 million and abalone worth almost R23 million were recovered by the SAPS.
Let's now look at narcotics. Over 209 kg of narcotics were recovered by the SAPS. Over 5 100 kg of cocaine was recovered. Let's go to dagga - 317 000 kg of dagga was recovered, not by the Scorpions, but by the SAPS. Let's look at Ecstasy - 27 800 kg was recovered by SAPS. Let's now go to Mandrax - 5 500 kg was recovered, not by the Scorpions, but by SAPS. Let's go to Tik - 22 600 kg of Tik was recovered, not by the DSO, but by our SAPS. Now, let's go to heroin - 365 kg of heroin was recovered.
Now, people should not say, simply because they are too lazy to access information and do not know about it, that our SAPS are not doing a good job. That is not true. I am left with five minutes so let me finish, Chairperson. Let me take the opportunity to thank all political parties for participating in this debate and the deliberations. To my colleagues I say well done. If I was to be asked to choose any members to serve on my committee, I wouldn't look for any other persons except you. Well done, colleagues. To the department's officials, we wouldn't be where we are today if it wasn't for your assistance. Thank you very much, and thank you for your kindness, Chairperson. [Time expired.]
Chairperson, hon members and hon Ministers, today will go down in history as the day the ANC killed the Scorpions. Today will be remembered as the day the ANC stopped the best crime-fighting unit in the country dead in its tracks. [Applause.]
Most of us in this Chamber know that the real reason for doing this is simply because the Scorpions made it very uncomfortable for some prominent ANC members. The decision to disband the Scorpions was taken at Polokwane and as far as the parliamentary process was concerned - and I differ with the Minister - the Bills were rushed through, and even today the three-day rule was waived. [Interjections.]
We all know that the ANC wanted the Scorpions under the control of the SA Police Service, SAPS, and no matter what the facts were, from the outset it was a done deal.
Judge Sisi Khampepe, in her report, identified problems within the DSO, but concluded that the DSO must remain with the National Prosecuting Authority, NPA. Willie Hofmeyr, one of the most respected crime fighters in the country, told Parliament that the way the DSO did their investigations, and other side issues that harmed their image, had been sorted out a long time ago.
Senior counsel advised Parliament that what the ANC was doing to the DSO was unconstitutional and would be challenged in the Constitutional Court. The Institute for Democracy in South Africa, Idasa, agreed that the Bills were unconstitutional. [Interjections.] Yes, it is the truth. The committee, however, accepted the opinion of the State Law Adviser. Only time will tell who was right. Yet, with the facts pointing in one direction, the ANC chooses to disband the DSO. The Scorpions fearlessly hunted down fraud syndicates, convicted money- launderers, confiscated millions of rands worth of drugs, jailed Schabir Shaik and Tony Yengeni, investigated Selebi, Agliotti and Zuma and exposed Travelgate and the arms deal. They have done all this and more, yet the only recognition given was for the unit to be swallowed up by the SAPS.
The people of South Africa, burdened with a crime wave second to none in the world, are the real losers in this tragic saga. But, Chair, the voters are well informed and will take revenge when they get to the polls next year. [Interjections.]
Many of the members sitting in the ANC benches today will lose their seats and they will regret ... [Interjections.] They will regret this madness of today. Thank you. [Applause.]
Chairperson, here in front of us we have a concoction of two Bills that will ensure that the capacity-building for fighting crime will focus and enhance the integrated cluster approach so that loopholes, tactical or legal, are closed or eliminated. The Bills in front of us emphasise that interdepartmental collaboration should not boil down to collusion in the investigation and prosecution of accused persons. While the two Bills can easily be cross-referenced in several sections, it remains remarkable that the lines of investigation versus prosecution are clearly demarcated. There are also, in several sections of these Bills, clear lines of accountability, including checks and balances.
We will hear more and more stories of the so-called success of the Scorpions. But, what is remarkable is that we do not see any facts accompanying these claims. [Interjections.] There are no statistics to say how far the Scorpions have succeeded in fighting the kind of crime they were instituted for. [Interjections.]
The hon member just before me stated that they are uncomfortable about these Bills and, indeed, they should be. It would seem to us that the Scorpions, in their latter form, were giving themselves a mandate that is legally not there.
Can we just focus on some of the issues? It is a known fact that they involved themselves in the unauthorised surveillance of individuals on a large scale. [Interjections.] As if that were not enough, they nearly threw this country into turmoil that could have had implications on a continental scale, involving heads of state of other countries in wild claims that were not even proved.
We have here claims that the Scorpions were successful. If then you were not interested in the stability of this country ...
Order, order! Yes, hon Tau.
No, no, it's very important. Hon Chair, I want to know whether if it is parliamentary for a member to say, "Ag sies, man!" [Oh sis, man!] to a member whilst he is speaking.
Who is that member? Who is that member?
Hon Terblanche.
Hon Terblanche, can you withdraw that, please?
Chairperson, I will withdraw if it is ruled that it is unparliamentary, but I don't know that it is.
It's unparliamentary. That is why I am saying that you must withdraw it.
Where does it say that in the Rules, Chairperson? I have a list of Rules and I am not going to withdraw it, Chairperson.
Please, don't argue with the Chair.
I am not going to withdraw it, Chairperson. I'm not going to withdraw it because I don't think it is unparliamentary.
Then you get out of the House. Where is the Usher of the Black Rod? Get out of the House for the rest of the afternoon.
If the public is misled, I have the right to comment on it.
Go out of the House; I have ruled. Continue, hon member. [Interjections.]
Whereupon the member left the House.
Thank you very much, hon Chairperson. The so-called success of the Scorpions in doing their work, especially crime-fighting, is undocumented and unknown. It can only be ascertained by certain individuals.
We also looked into how they used their own funds in order to fight crime. The record, as stipulated by the Office of the Auditor-General, contains a litany of errors. For a directorate, at that level, not to be able to account for funds in excess of R1 million! The Office of the Auditor- General states that it's only a preliminary figure of R1 million - on completion of that investigation that amount can be even higher.
Hon Krumbock, can you be in order, please? Hon Windvo?l?
Chair, you have covered me in terms of Rule 33. I'm from Mpumalanga and I can tolerate the noise of mosquitoes, but when a member makes such a noise, you can't hear another member. [Interjections.]
Continue, hon member.
For an institution at that level not to be able to maintain records, basic records, in terms of the Public Finance Management Act, can we say that is success? For an institution at that level not to be able to maintain assets or leave registers, can we say there is capacity in that institution? Yet the hon member said he is uncomfortable about the demise of the so-called Scorpions.
I can give an account of many things in the litany of errors that were found with regard to the Scorpions. But then I will conclude by asking, after reading this report of the Auditor-General, how can any institution that does not succeed in maintaining basic records and in managing the basics of its office and members then succeed in fighting high-level crime? Will it succeed? Because at one stage it didn't know how many members it had on its payroll. Yet a member is saying he is uncomfortable about this.
We table these Bills before this House for it to do the honourable thing and to pass them so that we can have a real, meaningful crime-fighting mechanism in the country. I thank you. [Applause.]
Sihlalo, noNgqongqoshe bobabili ngithi unwele olude. Uma ngiza lapha ngiye ngabuka, ngabuka ngathi ukubhala into oyaziyo ngeke kungehlule. Angimanga lapha ngoba ngizokwehlulela ukuthi Ofezela bebebahle kangakanani, amaphoyisa mabi kangakanani njalonjalo. Engikumele lapha kunye: Ukuthi ngizosekela uma ngabe Ofezela bebuyiselwa. [Uhleko.] Engikumela lapha ukuthi lo mthimba esikhuluma ngawo uma usungulwa ngangikhona. Mhla silusungula lolu phiko sasinaye uSekela Ngqongqoshe u-de Lange ngaze ngambuza mina ngathi kuye ngoba sinaso nje i-Special Branch kungani singaqeqeshi sona na?
Umhlonishwa u-de Lange wangiphendula ngokuthi: Cha! Waqhubeka wathi phela labo bangamasosha, futhi nje wonke lawo maphoyisa angamasosha kufuneka siwaguqule. Wathi bona bafuna ithimba elisha elizolwa nobugebengu obuhleliwe ngobunyoninco nangobuchwepheshe. Ngabe sengithi-ke mina, cha, kulungile asihambeni siyokwenza lokho. Sahamba-ke, sawela imifula siyokwenza lowo msebenzi, sabathola Ofezela.
Ofezela basebenze kahle iminyaka ize yaba mihlanu kungezwakali lutho. Kodwa kuthe lapho Ofezela sebentinyela ndawondawo wasuka umsindo. [Uhleko.] Wasuka umsindo kwaba wuthuli lwezichwe, asangabe sisazi ukuthi konakalephi. Kuthe kusuka lapho sezwa ukuthi umphathi wabo akasezwani noNgqongqoshe Wezobulungiswa Nokuthuthukiswa KoMthethosisekelo sekufuneka aphenywe izinqe- ke manje - hhayi bo!
Wenziwa lowo mbiko engingakaze ngiwubone kuze kube yinamhlanje. Yebo amaphoyisa wona kufanele aqeqeshwe kodwa futhi uma eseqeqeshiwe akusho phela ukuthi sekufuneka aqukule izimpahla zomsebenzi bese kuthiwa kuliwa nobugebengu. Ukuqeqeshwa kwamaphoyisa akufuneki futhi ukuthi kufane nomkhonto wegwala wona ophelela emlalazweni ololwa njalo kodwa kungabikho lutho olwenzekayo.
Ngakho-ke Sihlalo, iqembu leNkatha yeNkululeko lithi: Cha! Nakuba kungenzeka mhlawumbe ukuthi kukhona okuthile thina esingakwazi ngofezela ngoba nalowo mbiko wejaji uKhampepe ngawuthola ngoba sekuliwa kuthiwa awuze. Mina ngangikholwa ukuthi - ngoba ngangiseKomidini Lezobulungiswa ngaleso sikhathi - umbiko lo uzolethwa eKomidini Lezobulungiswa ukuze phela siwubuke futhi siwuhlaziye. Kodwa-ke umbiko lowo awukaze ufike. Ngisho noma ngabe kukhona abakwaziyo ozakwethu bakaKhongolose ngofezela nabo abakaze bakuphalaze nathi sikwazi.
Umsindo ususuka manje sekuvela konke lokhu nje ngoba sebeze bayotinyela ndawondawo. Manje-ke sekuthiwa, cha abahambe! Sekuthi abahambe! Ngiyazi ukuthi kwenziwa izigcawu zokulalelwa kwabantu kodwa-ke abantu bebedidekile bengazi ukuthi kukhulunywa ngabaphi bona ofezela noma ofezela laba abangabameli. Wawuzwa umuntu ethi akazi ukuthi Ofezela bamenzelani ngoba icala lakhe alikaze laphenywa.
INkatha yeNkululeko yeSizwe ithi: Cha! Ngeke impela Ngqongqoshe sikuveme lokhu ngoba naleli thimba olifaka manje - uma ngabe kungazange kulungiswe lapha kofezela - nalo lisazohamba ngaleyo ndlela. Kohamba, kuhambe kuthi uma sekufika kwindlelamnyama besekuthiwa: Cha.
Nabo laba enibafakayo bazotinyela omunye, asazi-ke ukuthi nizobabiza ngani- ke bona. Noma nizobabiza ngamabhubesi bazothi uma bebhodla konakale. Ngakho-ke ngokukhulu ukuzithoba lokhu iqembu leNkatha lithi: Cha! Ngeshwa ngeke sikwazi kulokhu ukukuxhasa Ngqongqoshe. Ngeke sivume ukuthi Ofezela bahambe beyoshona odongeni ngenxa yesizathu esingazange sisizwe. Akukaze kubikwe cala ngabo. Ngakho-ke uma umuntu engenacala bakithi kuye kuthiwe akalungise amaphutha akhe, akuvese nje kubhidlizwe umuzi wonke. Ngehlela ngezansi. [Ihlombe.] (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)
[Mr M A MZIZI: Chairperson and both Ministers, I greet you all. As I was coming here, I was just thinking and I realised that writing about what I know cannot be difficult. I do not stand here to judge how good the Scorpions were or how bad the police are, etc. I stand here for one thing only and that is this: I shall only give my support if the Scorpions are to be reinstated. [Laughter.] What I stand here for is to say that I was there when this unit that we are talking about was formed. When we formed it, the Deputy Minister, hon de Lange, was there with us and I even asked him if there was any reason we could not use the already existing Special Branch and retrain them.
The Deputy Minister, hon de Lange said: No! He elaborated and said those are not the police, but soldiers and he said, in fact, the whole police force consists of soldiers. He said they wanted a new unit that will fight organised crime tooth and nail using the latest technology. I said fine, let us go and do exactly that. We went all the way and crossed the rivers to do that job and the Scorpions were formed.
The Scorpions worked undisturbed for five years and there were no complaints about them. But when they started stinging sensitive spots, all hell broke loose. [Laughter.] There was a huge chaotic situation, and we did not know what had gone wrong. Thereafter we learnt that there was a breakdown in the relationship between the former boss of the Scorpions and the Minister for Justice and Constitutional Development and that he was to be named and shamed - whew!
The report was compiled and I have never laid eyes on it. However, we do agree that police officers should be trained, but also, in the same breath, that does not mean that after their training they should just seize items at workplaces in the name of fighting crime. The training of police officers should also not be the same thing as the sharpening of a coward's spear, which ends up losing its sharpness on the whetstone because it is forever sharpened, but nothing happens thereafter.
Therefore Chairperson, the Inkatha Freedom Party says: No! It is possible that there are certain things that we do not know about the Scorpions, because I got the Khampepe report after a long, protracted fight for it to be made available. I believed that, because I was a member of the Justice committee at the time, the report would be brought to the Justice committee for consideration. But the report did not come. Even if there is something that our colleagues from the ANC knew about the Scorpions, they have never brought it to our attention.
And the whole noise started because the Scorpions have stung on a sensitive spot. And they are now being chased away. People are now saying: Let them go! I know very well that the public hearings were conducted, but the people were confused and did not know whether the hearings were about the very Scorpions we are talking about here or about Scorpion Legal Protection. People could be heard saying they did not know what the Scorpions have done for them, because their cases were never investigated.
The Inkatha Freedom Party says: No! Never, hon Minister, shall we allow this to happen, because even this unit that you are introducing now - and if the wrongs of the Scorpions had not been made right - will follow the same route. Things will go smoothly at first and when they get to the sensitive issues, they will easily get a "No!"
Even the new unit you are establishing is also going to sting someone and we do not know what you are going to call them. Maybe you will call them the Lions and when they start roaring, things will be difficult. And, with all due respect, the Inkatha Freedom Party says: No! Unfortunately Minister, we are not going to support you. We cannot allow the Scorpions to go down the drain for reasons we have yet to hear. Not even a single case against them has been reported. Therefore the logic is that if someone has never been found guilty of any wrongdoing, he is usually told to mend his ways and does not simply have his entire house destroyed for sins not known. I rest my case. [Applause.]]
Chairperson, Minister, hon members, the two Bills presented before this House today propose the disbanding of a unit, the Directorate of Special Operations, DSO, better known as the Scorpions, who represent world-class standards in institutional independence and operational efficiency. [Interjections.]
The intention is to replace this unit with a unit called the Directorate for Priority Crime Investigation, DPCI, that will be substantially exposed to direct executive control and located within an institutional department not known to be conducive to or appropriate for the kind of high-level, specialised and professional expertise that characterises the Scorpions' investigations.
The effect of this legislation will be to deprive the National Prosecuting Authority, NPA, of its ability to investigate independently, without fear, favour or prejudice, allegations relating to organised crime and corruption, as it will henceforth be dependent on the SAPS for investigations essential to the prosecution process. In a nutshell, the Minister of Safety and Security and the ruling party will therefore have the final say as to who will or will not be investigated by the SAPS, upon whose investigation the NPA will be dependent for successful prosecutions.
This will, in effect, create the possibility that certain people will be placed above the law. The fact that the National Prosecuting Authority Amendment Bill accepts the retention of the investigating directorate within the NPA is implicit recognition that the proposed de-establishment of the Directorate of Special Operations, DSO, reflects a political rather than any rational, legal or operational imperative. [Interjections.]
The Khampepe Commission's recommendations would substantially and adequately have addressed any legitimate concerns relating to the DSO - some minimal cosmetic surgery, not amputation or the removal of the heart and limbs, as is now proposed. The Khampepe Commission that investigated the DSO and its relationship with the SAPS and the Department of Justice recommended that the unit be retained.
The ANC, however, is still perpetuating the single police force argument, which was rejected by the Constitutional Court in the Potsana case. The so- called provincial hearings, where cadres and comrades were bussed in at a cost of some R2 million, were also a farce and a means of electioneering at the taxpayers' expense. [Interjections.] Already some 60 members of the Scorpions, comprising advocates, forensic auditors and specialist investigators, have resigned.
On a point of order: I would like to know if the hon member is prepared to take a question.
No.
Jy's ook maar 'n bietjie bang, jong. [You really are a bit scared, hey.]
Already some 60 members of the Scorpions, comprising advocates, forensic auditors ...
Chairperson, with respect, I think the hon member is misleading the House to the effect that he said that members of the public who attended the public hearings were bussed in. That is not true, because it was part of the public hearings. So he is deliberately misleading the House. I think he has to withdraw that.
It is unparliamentary.
Well, let me check the Hansard. I am not too sure how I can rule on that one, because I cannot confirm the statement he has made. We will look at the Hansard before we make a ruling. [Interjections.]
On a point of order, Chairperson, is it in order for an ordinary member to defame a fellow member by insinuating something else about his surname? A member has called hon Sulliman a "silly man". [Interjections.]
Who said that? [Laughter.]
The hon Krumbock.
Mr Krumbock, could you please withdraw that? Hon member, continue please.
Disbanding a successful unit and transferring its staff and assets to a dysfunctional or, at the very least, less successful and significantly different operating environment will be disastrous. Statistics and information presented shows that the DSO is the most effective crime-fighting unit in South Africa and its abolition will constitute a major setback in the struggle against organised crime and corruption. The DA, therefore, cannot possibly support these Bills. [Applause.]
Modulasetulo, Ditona, a re thuseng ntate Le Roux pele ka gore fa a ne a eme fa, o tlhagisitse sengwe se se leng mo moleng, se re santseng re tla go buisana ka sone mo nakong e e tlang. Kgang e, e ka ga kgololosego ya kamano le manno a mekgatlho. (Translation of Setswana paragraph follows.)
[Mr A L MOSEKI: Chairperson, Ministers, can we first try to help Mr Le Roux because when he was standing here, he presented something that is still in the pipeline; that which we still have to discuss next time. This issue concerns freedom of association and the seating of parties.]
Let's tell him that the ANC has its own cadres who fully understand that seats in this Parliament do not belong to the cadres, but to the ANC. That must be clear in his mind.
Sabobedi ke gore ntate Worth o dira phoso ya go se batle go ithuta. Go botlhokwa mo tsamaisong e ya temokerasi gore re ithute, re tlhaloganye gore temokerasi e dira jang. (Translation of Setswana paragraph follows.)
[Secondly, Mr Worth is wrong by not being willing to learn. It is important, in the advancing of this democracy, that we learn and understand how it works.]
This government is the government of the people, by the people and for the people. This government has a responsibility to ensure that the public participate in the lawmaking of this country. Many of those people we are talking about are the poor communities in the rural areas. Therefore, this government has a responsibility to bring those people to the venue where public hearings will take place so that they can air their views. That must be clear to the hon member.
Today we are dealing with the Scorpions issue, the Directorate of Special Operations, DSO. Why did government establish this unit? A few years ago this government of the people, by the people and for the people identified crime in this country; not just ordinary crime, but organised crime which is not only committed by local criminal masters, but also by international criminal masters. The overall objective of establishing the Scorpions was to ensure the fight against criminals.
The question is: Have the Scorpions been able to deal with organised crime as expected? People say the Scorpions have succeeded. I was listening to the public addressing the committee. The public understands that the Scorpions' objective was to fight organised crime like bank robberies, the cash-in-transit robbers, drug lords - those that bring drugs from abroad into South Africa and distribute them in the learning institutions of our country and other important institutions, etc. Have the Scorpions succeeded in dealing with these criminals?
HON MEMBERS: No!
The answer is what you are saying, hon members.
The people went on to mention, as an example of the fact that the Scorpions have not succeeded, people like Mark Thatcher, who is a crime master. He, together with others, came to South Africa, organised illegal activities to topple and destabilise other countries, and they got arrested. What did the Scorpions do? You know the answer. The Scorpions entered into a plea bargain agreement with these criminals and released them to go back and live comfortable lives.
People wonder why the Scorpions did that. They did that because they probably had a hidden political agenda, to destabilise this government and also the neighbouring countries. It was on this basis that we then said that this democracy cannot be taken for granted.
As the ANC we have a responsibility, as the public representatives, to correct things that go wrong. There is nothing wrong about what we are doing; we are just taking very responsible action to correct the wrongs that have been done. With those few words, we support the passing of this Bill. Thank you.
Chairperson, hon Minister, let me first say that I am not speaking here against the Bill on the basis of me being a counter- revolutionary or not having fought for the freedom of my country.
Order, hon members!
I fought for my country as much as many of you did. Many of my people also suffered, but I stand against this Bill today on the basis of principle. I don't believe that this Bill is in the best interests of South Africans.
As was stated in the Glenister High Court application, the issue of the future of the Scorpions is about crime and accountability. It is about crime in as much as it is about the rights of all South Africans to go about their lives in the secure knowledge that the law enforcement agencies will take reasonable measures to protect them from the scourge of crime. It is about accountability in as much as it has to do with the fiduciary obligation of the state to act in our best interests.
Order! Hon members, there is only one presiding officer. Hon Sogoni, is there a point of order?
Chairperson, will the member take a question based on the principle he is standing for?
Hon member, will you take the question?
Sure, I will take the question. Will it come off my time?
Yes.
No, I want to finish my speech. Thank you.
Okay, the member won't take the question. Please take your seat. Hon member, you may continue.
The ACDP believes that government has breached this obligation by reversing its decision on the Khampepe Commission report to further the narrow interests of the ruling party. By doing so we believe that government has sacrificed the wellbeing of all South Africans on the altar of political expediency.
There are many constitutional aspects to this matter. The Constitution imposes specific obligations on the executive and Parliament when it comes to enacting legislation that deals with combating crime. These are higher- order obligations that may not apply when government enacts legislation dealing with other matters, emphasising that government is not at liberty to play fast and loose with the security of its citizens.
It was common cause amongst all the parties in the Glenister application, including the government, that the Scorpions have been extremely successful in the fight against crime. The government has admitted that the DSO has scored significant successes in investigating and securing convictions in organised crime, and accepts that the DSO has made a significant difference in the fight against organised and syndicated crime. We are mindful of the shortcomings of the Scorpions, but believe these shortcomings are comprehensively dealt with by the commission of inquiry.
We cannot afford to lose the expertise built up over the years at great cost to the taxpayer. The tabling of the amendment to the legislation is resulting in the destruction of a unit that is valuable. There can be no doubt that the unit is being decimated. They have been specifically trained to combat organised crime and we cannot afford to lose more highly skilled employees.
The ACDP has grave concerns that the principle of constant prosecutable oversight and investigations that is the cornerstone of the success of the Scorpions will be lost if they are incorporated into the SA Police Service. This was the very reason for the creation of the Scorpions and other units outside the SAPS, because there wasn't enough capacity within the SAPS, such as the priority crimes unit, litigation units, asset forfeiture unit, etc.
I do wish to emphasise that we have a high regard for the SAPS, notwithstanding some of the problems they face in terms of capacity. Thank you. [Applause.]
Mevrou die Voorsitter, die Direktoraat: Spesiale Operasies en die SAPD wysigingswetsontwerp het veral twee groot leemtes. Die eerste ernstige beswaar is dat die wysigingswetsontwerp die bepaling in artikel 179 van die Grondwet aan bande l ingevolge waarvan die Direkteur van Openbare Vervolging se bevoegdheid om enige funksie te verrig om strafregtelike stappe in te stel gereguleer word.
Die wetsontwerp verplaas nou die ondersoekfunksie na die SAPD, wat onder die gesag van die Minister van Veiligheid en Sekuriteit staan, en die Minister is weer onder die gesag en die sweep van die ANC se Polokwane heilige koei. [Tussenwerpsels.]
Die afskaffing van die DSO is 'n ernstige terugwaartse stap in die stryd teen georganiseerde misdaad en korrupsie. Die DSO het ontwikkel in 'n gedugte eenheid wat hierdie klas misdrywe ondersoek het. Die afskaffing gaan 'n ernstige leemte laat en dit word gedoen bloot omdat die DSO sonder vrees, vooroordeel of begunstiging ondersoek ingestel het na, onder andere, senior politici, polisie-amptenare, LP's en die sakemanne met wie hulle in 'n noue verbintenis was. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)
[Dr F J VAN HEERDEN: Madam Chair, the Directorate of Special Operations and the SAPS amending Bill have two major deficiencies in particular. The first serious objection is that the amending Bill restricts the provision in section 179 of the Constitution, whereby the power of the Director of Public Prosecutions to fulfil any task in instituting criminal charges, is regulated.
The Bill shifts the task of investigating to the SAPS, which falls under the authority of the Minister of Safety and Security, who in turn acts under the authority and the whip of the ANC's holy cow in Polokwane. [Interjections.]
The abolition of the DSO is a serious step backwards in the fight against organised crime and corruption. The DSO evolved into a formidable unit which investigated these types of crimes. The abolition thereof will leave a serious vacuum, and this is done simply because the DSO investigated, amongst others, senior politicians, police officials, MPs and the businessmen who were in close alliances with them without fear, favour or prejudice.]
Madam Chair, there is a second major objection and that is that it is a sad day for South Africa's reputation as cosignatory to several international agreements such as the UN Convention against Corruption, the UN Convention against Transnational Organised Crime and the AU Convention on Preventing and Combating Corruption. All these treaties enjoy international support and require specialised anticorruption units that must be absolutely independent.
We now no longer have that independence. This independence is now gone and South Africa's credibility to stick to its treaty obligations, to keep independent units in place, and to combat corruption will now be history. But I can understand that; there is nothing wrong with the police, the police do good work, let's grant them that and I accept that. But the DSO also did very, very good work.
You see, the problem was that the profile of the DSO was too high for the liking of certain people and they had the courage to investigate certain people and that the ANC didn't like.
We are now in the process of approaching the election. There is also a case that apparently deals with the registration of Cope's name. I think that the ANC must also change their name, from the African National Congress to the African National Cover-up, and that will more or less sum up the whole process! Thank you. [Laughter.] [Applause.]
Hon Chairperson, hon Ministers, hon members of Parliament, comrades and friends ...
... Sihlalo, ngifuna ukukhumbuza le Ndlu ngeminyaka yamaseventizi ukuthi kwakuneqembu laphaya elalingaphansi kwamaphoyisa okwakuthiwa yi-Special Branch. Ngizwile uMzizi elithinta ukuthi cha usenalo ibhabhalazi lalo. Ama- Special-Branch ayesatshwa ngoba ayesebenza ngabantu bezepolitiki. Ayebekwe nguhulumeni wangaleso sikhathi, wobandlululo, ukuthi asebenze ngomuntu ophikisana nohulumeni, ngakho-ke konke ayekwenza ayekwenziswa yipolitiki. Yingakho-ke nje uzwa abaningi behambisana nOfezela ngoba bakhumbula leya ndaba yama-SB. [Uhleko.]
Ama-SB lawa uma ngabe abanye benu bengawazi kahle, ayebulala. Hhayi indaba yokudlala uyabona nje uma kuthiwa wena usukhonjiwe ukuthi awuhambisani nohulumeni, ayevele afike ekhaya azokulanda, athi ayokuphenya. Ngemuva kwalokho kuthiwe uphume ngewindi.
Mhlawumbe uNgqongqoshe uzokhumbula ubaba uMdluli walaphaya eLamontville okwakuthiwa uMasobiwa uJoseph Mdluli. Amaphoyisa afika amthatha amusa laphaya ku-Fisher Street eThekwini ethi ayomphenya ngemva kwalokho bathi uzilengise etafuleni. Bathi uthathe intambo yesicathulo wazilengisa etafuleni waze washona. Kumanje lelo cala awukaze uzwe ukuthi lagcina kanjani, kuthiwa wazilengisa ngen tambo etafuleni. Umbuzo uthi-ke: Kanjani? [Ubuwelewele.]
Thina siwazi kahle ama-SB ngeminyaka yoseventi. Mina ngangifunda laphaya eVukuzakhe High School ngonyaka ka 1977 sithi sizosekela izingane zaseSoweto zesikole ngalokho okukade kwenzekile ngonyaka ka 1976. Ngangingukapteni webhola abafundi bacela ukuthi ngibahole, ngibize umhlangano ukuthi singawesekela kanjani umzabalazo waseSoweto.
Ngathi ngiphuma nje ngalelo langa kulowo mhlangano ama-SB ayehamba ngezimoto ezintathu eyisikhombisa kulezi zimoto afika ezofuna mina. Ngangiziqhamukela esikoleni, ngingumfana wesikole. Athi ngihlanganaphi nezingane zaseGoli. Kungashona ilanga uma ngichaza ngalaba bantu.
Okungimangazayo-ke ukuthi ngesikhathi sekungena uhulumeni omusha wonke lawa ma-SB esiwaziyo ukuthi ayesebenza kanjani aphenduka athola izikhundla zokuba ngokapteni kuhumeni waKwaZulu. Babephetha iziteshi zaKwaZulu zama- ZP, kwaba yibona omasiteshi. UMzizi ngiyabona ukuthi akakude kakhulu. [Uhleko.] Kuyamangaza-ke Ngqongqoshe ukuzwa amaqembu lawa aphikisayo ekhuluma kanje futhi niyakwazi nokuthi phela bona bangamaqembu, inhlangano nguANC, uKhongolose. Laba abanye amaqembu ngoba bayaqembuka bahlale beqembuka.[Uhleko.] Ngifuna ukuthi kucace kubaba uLe Roux ukuthi ... (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)
[... Chairperson, I would like to remind this House that in the 1970s there was a unit in the then police service which was known as the Special Branch. I heard hon Mzizi referring to it and I realised that he still longs for it. The Special Branch unit was the most feared unit, because it only dealt with the political activists. It was put there by the apartheid government to deal with anyone who was opposing it, therefore, it was politically motivated. It is for this very reason that you hear most people here supporting the Scorpions, because they remind them of the SB unit. [Laughter.]
The SB unit - for those of you who do not know it very well - was a killing machine. Jokes aside, if you had been identified as being opposed to the erstwhile government, the unit would come and take you from your home, saying that they were going to interrogate you. After that there would be a report that you jumped out of the window.
Maybe the hon Minister will remember Mr Mdluli of Lamontville, his name was Masobiwa Joseph Mdluli. The police took him to Fisher Street, in Durban, on the pretext that they were going to interrogate him. And after that, they said he had hanged himself from the table. They said he used a shoelace to hang himself from the table until he died. Until today, we have never heard about the outcome of that case. They just alleged that he hanged himself from the table. The question therefore is: How? [Interjections.]
Some of us knew the SB unit very well in the 1970s. In 1977, I was a pupil and captain of the soccer team at Vukuzakhe High School, when I was requested by my fellow pupils to lead them in our support for the Soweto uprising. They asked me to call a meeting to find ways to pledge solidarity with the 1976 Soweto uprising.
After that meeting, on the same day, seven members of the SB unit came in three cars looking for me. I was just a schoolboy, coming from school. They asked me what business I had with the Soweto students. We can all sit here the whole day if I were to start talking about these people.
But what amazes me is that, when the new government came into being, all those well-known members of the SB unit received captaincy positions in the KwaZulu-Natal police. They all became station commissioners in the KwaZulu- Natal police, especially at those police stations which had previously been known to belong to the ZPs.
I realise that hon Mzizi is not that far off the point. [Laughter.] It is amazing, hon Minister, to hear the opposition parties talking like this and you also know that they are just parties, but the ANC is a movement, the Congress. These others are parties, because they always part ways and breakaway from other parties. [Laughter.] I want to make it clear to hon Le Roux that the ...]
... ANC will continue having its conferences and it will take resolutions ...
... ezizobuya zize lapha ePhalamende ukuthi zizohola lo hulumeni oholwa nguKhongolose. [... which will be brought to Parliament to guide this ANC- led government.] We are not going to shy away from that.
Ubaba lo uDarryl Worth uthi uma umuntu egula kufuneka umkhiphe leso simo. Hayi bekungasekho lapho ungasika khona umdlavuza lona ubusugcwele yonke indawo. Akukho lapho ubungathi ungakhipha khona bese kungumdlavuza ugcwele umzimba wonke. Okunye Ngqongqoshe engikwaziyo ukuthi into eyinkinga kakhulu kulaba abanye abaphikisayo ukuthi phela babewuhulumeni ngalesiya sikhathi esedlule, babeyingxenye kahulumeni.
Ngakho-ke laba bantu basenalelo bhabhalazi lokuthi Ofezela bebebanika ithuba lokuthi babaphindiselele ezitheni zabo. Banalelo bhabhalazi lokuthi sabathola abantu abazosiphindiselela kulaba bantu, yikho ubezwa bekhuluma kanjena baphethwe yileyo nto nje. Ubaba uvan Heerden ngiyabona ukuthi ushintsho lukude naye uma ekewezwa nje ukuthi kunoshintsho uvele abe nohlevane.
Uma ubukisisa ukusebenza kwama-SB nokusebenza kOfezela, uyakubona ukuthi kufana ncamashi. Uma ngabe ukhona umehluko mncane kabi ngoba bonke babesebenza ngokuthi balwe nomuntu okuthiwa uvukela umbuso. Nabo-ke laba uma uthola Ofezela amacala ebebewajaha yilawa abonakalayo ukuthi awezombangazwe.
Asikakazi namanje ukuthi kungani uPhillip Powell we-IFP owatholakala nezikhali KwaZulu kwathiwa akayofunda phesheya. Asikaze sizwe namanje ukuthi zenza njani lezo zikhali. Yinto efanayo lena noAgliotti ukuthi ungathatha isigelekeqe sezidakamizwa uthi uma nje kubanjwe usopolotiki uzomnikeza inkululeko. Kusobala abantu ngempela abalwa nabo osopolotiki.
Kwaphuma umbiko kwiKhomishana Yamaqiniso Nokubuyisana, i-TRC, ukuthi laba bantu abangachazanga kwi-TRC kuyofanele kulandelwe amacala abo. Awukaze uzwe ukuthi Ofezela bafikaphi nawo, into nje abayaziyo ukujaha osopolotiki.
Uma ngingase ngibuze nje ukuthi ngabe kuwubugebengu obuhleliwe yini ukuthi umuntu wathola isephulelo ethenga imoto na? Ngabe ubugebengu obuhleliwe lobo? Ngabe kuwubugebengu obuhleliwe yini uma ngabe usibanibani kusolakala ukuthi wayefuna ukugwazela usibanibani? Ngabe ubugebengu obuhleliwe lobo? Kusho ukuthi umuntu lapha bekufanele ashushiswe ngezindlela zonke.
Uma ngingase ngibuze nje ukuthi ingakanani imali esichithiwe ngOfezela belokhu bezama ukuthi kushushiswe uMongameli we-ANC. Kodwa akukho muntu okhuluma ngalezo zigidi lapha. Kwakhona nje ukuthi ngabe bazotholani ngalokhu kulandela lo sopolotiki nathi asazi. Sekungaze kuchithwe izimali eziningi kangaka ngoba nje befuna ukulandela lo sopolotiki?
Hhayi Ngqongqoshe kulo mbutho esiwakhayo lona okuthiwa yi-Directorate of Priority Crime Investigation, i-DPCI, lapho khona sizobe sishaya lokhu okuthiwa yi "Operation washa tsotsi". Laphaya zizohlehla izigebengu, zizohlehla ngoba kukhona abaseshi abazobe beqeqeshiwe ngokuba ngabashushisi kodwa bazobe besebenza umsebenzi wabaseshi. Hhayi lokhu kuhlanganisa umsebenzi, inxovanxovane. Bazobe belaphaya nolwazi kodwa besebenza njengamaphoyisa bebika futhi emaphoyiseni.
Sihlalo ngoba ngiyabona lapha ngithi-ke abantu basho bathi kuzoba nokuthula, nokukhululeka kanye nokuthokomala kuleli lizwe lethu. Basho njalo abantu eKliptown ngoJune 1955. Ngiyabonga Sihlalo. (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)
[Hon Darryl Worth says that if someone is sick, you must put them out of their misery. Well, there was nowhere to dissect, because the cancer had spread to the whole body. The whole body was infected with cancer; there was no piece of flesh which was not infected. Another thing that we are facing here, hon Minister, is that some of the members of the opposition were formerly of the erstwhile government, whilst others formed part of that government.
Therefore, these very people were pleased to know that the Scorpions were avenging them against their enemies. They are convinced that in the Scorpions they had found people who would avenge them against these people, that is why you hear them talk like this. Well, I can see that change is a distant goal to the hon van Heerden. When he realises that there is talk about change, he just becomes outraged.
If you look closely at how the SB unit operated and how the Scorpions operate, you will realise that they operate exactly the same way. If ever there is a difference, it must be a slight one, because these forces dealt with anyone who was suspected of rising up against the state. Therefore, with the Scorpions too, if you look at the cases which they are pursuing, you will find that they are political.
We do not know, even today, what happened to the IFP's Phillip Powell who was found with an arms cache in KwaZulu-Natal and was later asked to go and study overseas. We haven't heard, even now, of what had happened to those weapons. And it is exactly the same with Agliotti, a drug lord who, should he give evidence against a certain politician, will be set free. It is clear that the Scorpions are only happy when chasing after politicians.
There was a report from the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, the TRC, which stated that the cases of all those who did not appear before it would be followed up. But we have never heard how far the Scorpions are with those cases; the only thing they are obsessed with is chasing after the politicians.
If I may ask, is getting a discount when buying a car organised crime? Is that organised crime? Is it organised crime if so and so is suspected of having wanted to bribe so and so? Is that organised crime? It's very clear here that someone had and has to be prosecuted at all costs. If I may ask you. How much has been spent by the Scorpions in their quest to prosecute the ANC President? And yet there is no one who is talking about those millions here. And sadly we do not know how they are aiming to benefit by chasing after this politician. How do they dare waste so much money just because they want to nail this politician?
Well, hon Minister, the new organisation which we are establishing, known as the Directorate of Priority Crime Investigation, the DPCI, will deal with criminals seriously and we will be using Operation Washa Tsotsi. And definitely the criminals will retreat, because there will be crime investigators who would have undergone training as prosecutors, yet work as investigators. And the time for the mixing of tasks, this mix-up, is no more. These investigators will be there with their expertise, but they will be operating as police and they will be accountable to the police.
Chairperson, I can now understand what the people said. I therefore say that the people said that there shall be peace, freedom and comfort in our country. The people said so in Kliptown in June 1955. Thank you, Chairperson.]
Hon Minister of Safety and Security, hon members, it's good to be back home. I could talk about things such as "cherry-picking"; I could talk about deficits in the methods and methodology of the Scorpions; I could talk about weaknesses; and I could talk about tensions.
I have already spoken at length about the genesis of the Scorpions, the Directorate of Special Operations, in the NA. I have spoken about the problematic relationship between the Scorpions and the SAPS. I have spoken about the rationale for the amendment to the legislation. I think we are not here today to say who is right and who is wrong.
I think the DSO has had its strengths; it has had capable investigators and continues to have capable investigators. It had committed prosecutors - yes, some of them were indulging in questionable activities and there were deficits and problems - but I think we must recognise the value of their contribution to the eradication of crime, organised crime in particular, and to the eradication of corruption.
My colleague and I are not here to celebrate the demise of the Scorpions, as somebody has suggested. We are here to ask how, in the context of the problematic relationship that existed in the past, we can collectively address it in such a way that we seriously ensure that we continue with our commitment to the eradication of corruption and organised crime.
Some things must be cleared up from the beginning. The suggestion, for example, that if it's a political decision it's unconstitutional, is totally without foundation. In fact, the day before the matter was debated in the NA, the Chief Justice of the Constitutional Court said the following, and I quote him verbatim:
In my view, there is nothing wrong, in our multiparty democracy, with Cabinet seeking to give effect to the policy of the ruling party
And you could put in brackets "Polokwane", if you wish.
Quite clearly, in so doing, Cabinet must observe its constitutional obligations and may not breach the Constitution. The question that we have to ask, in a very mature and dignified way, is: In doing what we are doing, in amending the legislation, are we achieving two things? The first one is to ensure that we sustain, maintain and retain the ability on a multidisciplinary basis of that organised unit to fight organised crime. That's the question we have to ask, whether they are allocated within the DSO or anywhere else.
The second question is - and it's an important question - whether indeed, as we pass this law, the provisions of this law are consistent with the Constitution. I would like to argue, with respect, that indeed we can answer both questions, quite unequivocally, in the affirmative.
What is it that we are trying to create? I'm trying to speak so that we can understand there is some rationality in terms of what we are trying to achieve. We are trying to organise a dedicated unit, the Directorate of Priority Crime Investigation, DPCI, as my colleague has called it, to ensure that we deal with organised crime on a multidisciplinary basis, mindful of the fact that you need a troika - prosecution assistance, investigation and crime intelligence. Those three elements will in fact reside in that particular unit. It is not something new.
If you take the commercial unit within the SAPS, currently and in the past, we have had more than 80 dedicated prosecutors who assisted the SAPS to ensure that we dealt with commercial crime. The results are very similar to those achieved by the DSO; they are in the vicinity of 90%. Investigations conducted by the SAPS yielded the same results, assisted by prosecutors from the NPA. I think one must understand the context. Indeed, we have committed ourselves to ensuring that we have a multidisciplinary approach.
What we have to be mindful of - and it's been raised by more than one member of the opposition - is that people are leaving. Just this morning, colleagues, I spoke to the Acting National Director of Public Prosecutions, and I speak to you now with his permission. He says that since the last time that we had spoken - and I was appointed as Minister about seven weeks ago - up to now, not a single investigator has approached him to say they wished to resign from the DSO. [Applause.] Those are the realities.
Willie Hofmeyr, whom we spoke about, has indicated that the preliminary indications are that approximately 80% of these investigators are going to move over to this dedicated unit. Now why is there this myth, this fabrication, that people are going to leave and that we are going to be deprived of the capacity and the ability of people who have the experience? We certainly must do and we should do whatever is necessary to ensure that we retain their skills.
At the heart of a successful transition lie two things. The first one is the assurance that we can give to the investigators that they are most welcome in the SAPS and, secondly, to continue with the fight against corruption and crime. To that end my colleague, the Minister of Safety and Security, and I will work extremely hard to create a climate that is conducive to this.
We have gone out of our way and we really want to thank the chairperson of the select committee, as well as the chairpersons of the portfolio committees in the NA for ensuring that they pay meticulous attention to the labour relations aspects. Nobody, no investigator, is going to be forced to go to the SAPS. If he or she feels that they want to remain with the NPA that is a choice that they could exercise. Indeed, if they did not wish to stay there, they have the entire Public Service where they could be deployed.
These choices are available. It is not about severance; it is not about removing the skills and capacity, but it's about ensuring that the choices that we make are not choices that we would impose on individual investigators who are located within the NPA.
The National Director of Public Prosecutions would tell you that I personally, on more than one occasion, invited him to make submissions to us, my colleague and myself, in terms of the shape and the model of the mechanism that would deal with this transition; they are grateful for it. We do so because we believe that there is no tension - and there should be no tension - between the Department of Justice and the NPA. We do so because we are sensitive to their concerns, and we certainly would want to promote them to carry out the task as prosecutors without fear, favour or prejudice. That has been our position and it will continue to be our position.
You cannot quote and speak about international treaties and covenants suggesting, in a very subtle way, that what we are seeking to do is to promote corruption rather than eradicate it. That is extremely irresponsible. That has no moral basis, no legal basis and no rational basis.
What we should be doing is to say, we recognise that we are at a time where elections are imminent, and political parties will want to score points. Glenister tried to vote with the Constitutional Court, but he failed. I've just quoted for you from the Chief Justice. The very next day he came to the High Court in Cape Town, again on the basis that what we are doing is unconstitutional, and he failed again. We say that those who wish to approach the courts and challenge and test the legislation are at liberty to do so. But we are quite satisfied that in what we are doing we've ensured that those proposed provisions are indeed consistent with the law.
I am aware of the fact that amendments have been brought by this House and certainly the NA would want to look at them. Let me conclude by saying that this would not have been possible without your contribution. I feel more confident and more assured because your committee has sat jointly with the NA, Safety and Security and the Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development for more than a 192 hours. You visited all the provinces. You have listened attentively to the voice of the poor, the rich and those who have an interest. You were open-minded about it. The product we have here is not the product that was introduced in Parliament. It's a product that has been changed, that has been shaped and informed by what you listened to, what you applied your mind to, and what you feel is in the best interests of our country.
Central to our task as Members of Parliament - and we, too, as the executive, are Members of Parliament - is a commitment that we ensure that we promote the administration of justice and that we eradicate corruption in whatever form. I would want to give the assurance that for us this unit here has to do its task, and if there is corruption at the highest or lowest levels, it must deal with it. Organised crime spreads its tentacles all over, and we should not regard this unit, a priority unit for priority crimes, as a unit at the helm of or at the mercy of politicians or simply a unit that is going to be used by politicians. I think that would be extremely wrong and irresponsible. We must begin to understand that we, as a democracy, have respect for the rule of law. The impartiality of the prosecutors must be recognised, must be promoted and must be protected. The independence of the judiciary must indeed be recognised. As a democracy we have done extremely well. We can take pride in the fact that when people have difficulties, when they wish to challenge the law, they can go to court. They use that as a forum for the courts are the final arbiters of disputes. You have Presidents going to court; you have political parties going to court and everybody recognises and respects the rule of law.
That says a lot about our democracy and we must recognise that we are less than 15 years old as a democracy. We can take pride in the fact that, as citizens in this wonderful democracy of ours, we have shown maturity to be able to indulge in robust debate - yes, rigorous debate - but, at the same time, respecting the rule of law. That would be my responsibility as Minister for Justice and Constitutional Development; that would be the responsibility of my colleague as Minister of Safety and Security.
Let me conclude by saying that when I was in the NA I said very clearly that already the Minister of Safety and Security and I are sitting and looking at the mechanism. We've already conceptualised it. We are, indeed, waiting for the NPA; they are communicating with us informally, but we are waiting for a formal submission so that we can provide for this mechanism, get certainty and do an assessment. Then we can actually do an audit in terms of the skills that we have to make sure that, in anticipation of the fact that you are going to support this legislation, immediately after the law is passed we do not have to wait for another six months for this important DPCI to do its work. It will be a matter of saying everything is ready and they can integrate easily and serve the interests of justice by ensuring that they eradicate corruption in our midst.
That is the assurance that I give to you. That will be confirmed by the NPA. Let me assure you that, indeed, there is no tension. What I think this would do is to deal with the problem that has haunted this relationship - the relationship between the SAPS and the DSO. It does not help to say that this one is better than the other. We should combine the skills and the strengths to ensure that we are able to best serve the interests of our country.
So thank you very much for your efforts. May I also conclude by thanking Mr Johan de Lange, Mr Deon Rudman and Mr Jacobs and his team from Safety and Security for their extremely dedicated commitment to the portfolio and select committees. As the Chairperson has correctly indicated, this would not have been possible without their constant presence, advice and guidance. Thank you very much for your kind support. [Applause.]
Debate concluded.
National Prosecuting Authority Amendment Bill, subject to proposed amendments, agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.
South African Police Service Amendment Bill, subject to proposed amendments, agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.