Madam Speaker, the amendments I introduced are elementary. They also create the same unit but it is called the South African Bureau for Investigations, Sabi, which I believe relates to the word fear - "saba" in isiZulu. They place the unit in the Ministry of Safety and Security, but the head of the bureau will be appointed by the President upon the recommendation of Parliament. The head of the bureau will have the rank of a director-general, responsible to Parliament through the Minister and not through the commissioner. The head of the department will also be an accounting officer in a separate item in the budget of the Department of Safety and Security.
The amendments will give the unit the degree of independence it needs. They retain the multidisciplinary composition and the concept of a prosecution- led investigation. Of course, they can have experienced prosecutors in the unit, hon Jeffrey, because we have discussed the difference between investigating prosecutors and prosecuting prosecutors. There is no problem with that.
May I explain that we have not proposed any amendments to the National Prosecuting Authority Amendment Act. Why is that? This is because we voted against the amendments. Our idea is that - and we think - the Scorpions should have coexisted with the new unit, been phased out as they finished pending investigations and then been disbanded through legislation when they were finished with their work.
I also put the amendments so that South Africans would know that there was and there is a proper alternative to what was proposed by the ANC. Furthermore, I also put these amendments as a last chance to many ANC members, who honestly do not agree with the Bill in their heart of hearts, to vote for the amendments. Finally, I want to point out that you have the authority to refer these amendments back to the committee for discussion before we vote on the main Bill as it stands. I suggest you do that to give my hon colleagues a second chance of thinking about the Bill. [Applause.]
Madam Speaker, we will be supporting the amendments proposed by the hon Dr Tertius Delport. The main reason is that the Bill before the House removes the independence of the NPA, and the proposal by Dr Delport, to a large degree, protects that. This is why we will support the amendments.
Madam Speaker, chairperson Yunus Carrim referred to the "rooi gevaar", but here is the "Swart gevaar" standing before him. So, if you would allow me a few words.
The ACDP is on record as supporting model 1. We believe that the amendments proposed by Dr Delport support that model which has a strong emphasis on the independence of the unit. The committee accepted the principle of independence for the new unit. In our view, the new unit does not have the required independence that the Scorpions had. The head, as it was pointed out, would be a line function of the commissioner who also controls the budget. We are particularly concerned about that aspect of independence.
In particular, one of the issues we raised related to the interim transitional period and the fact that, with the Fidentia case, for example, 73 000 claimants are going to suffer almost irreparable damage. These are some of the aspects we are very concerned about and we believe that one should have looked a bit closer at this legislation. For that purpose, we will support these amendments. Thank you.
Madam Speaker, we do not support the amendments. They are not at all well thought through. Dr Delport talks about establishing them under the Ministry and as an independent body. But if you look at his amendments, he goes and puts them under the SAPS. He is amending clause 5 of the South African Police Service Amendment Bill which says that the service shall consist of (a), (b) and (c), and he wants (d) - this bureau. So, it is not consistent with what he is trying to achieve.
Secondly, he raises the issue of prosecutors. In my speech I started referring to the fact that you can't have prosecutors outside of the NPA. The Constitution is very clear. There is a single NPA. So, if you take prosecutors out of the NPA they won't be prosecutors anymore. [Interjections.]
Madam Speaker, on a point of order: Will the hon member take a question?
No.
The hon member said no.
You will not because you are scared. You are scared to take a question.
Madam Speaker, we have considered these issues in the committee. So, there is no need to refer it back. Mr Swart is concerned about the cases and we feel this has been adequately dealt with by the mechanism in the Bill that we have just passed. So, there is no need for that to be done.
I think the last point is the other main change that Dr Delport makes. He wants to call this a bureau. When you think of bureaus and the state security operators you think of the Bureau of State Security or Boss - Mr Van der Merwe's body. I think this reflects where Dr Delport and the DA are coming from. Thank you. [Applause.]
Division demanded.
The House divided:
AYES - 59: Bekker, H J; Bhengu, M J; Bici, J; Blanch, J P I; Boinamo, G G; Botha, A; Botha, C-S; Camerer, S M; Cupido, H B; Davidson, I O; Delport, J T; Ditshetelo, P H K; Doman, W P; Dreyer, A M; Dudley, C; Ellis, M J; Farrow, S B; George, D T; Groenewald, P J; Holomisa, B H; Joubert, L K; Julies, I F; Kalyan, S V; Kganyago, N M; King, R J; Kohler- Barnard, D; Lee, T D; Lowe, C M; Marais, S J F; Masango, S J; Mfundisi, I S; Minnie, K J; Morgan, G R; Mpontshane, A M; Nel, A H; Nkabinde, N C; Opperman, S E; Rabie, P J; Rabinowitz, R; Roopnarain, U; Sayedali-Shah, M R; Seaton, S A; Selfe, J; Semple, J A; Sibuyana, M W; Sigcau, S N; Simmons, S; Singh, N; Smuts, M; Swart, M; Swart, P S; Swathe, M M; Trent, E W; Van der Merwe, J H; Van der Walt, D; Van Dyk, S M; Waters, M; Weber, H; Zikalala, C N Z.
NOES - 251: Abram, S; Ainslie, A R; Anthony, T G; Arendse, J D; Asiya, S E; Balfour, B M N; Baloyi, M R; Bapela, K O; Beukman, F; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, P; Bloem, D V; Bogopane-Zulu, H I; Bonhomme, T J; Booi, M S; Botha, N G W; Burgess, C V; Cachalia, I M; Carrim, Y I; Cele, M A; Chalmers, J; Chauke, H P; Chikunga, L S; Chohan, F I; Combrinck, J J; Cronin, J P; Cwele, S C; Dambuza, B N; Daniels, P; Davies, R H; De Lange, J H; Diale, L N; Dikgacwi, M M; Dithebe, S L; Dlali, D M; Dlamini-Zuma, N C; Doidge, G Q M; Du Toit, D C; Fazzie, M H; Fihla, N B; Frolick, C T; Fubbs, J L; Gabanakgosi, P S; Gaum, A H; Gcwabaza, N E; Gerber, P A; Gigaba, K M N; Godi, N T; Gogotya, N J; Gololo, C L; Gore, V C; Greyling, C H F; Gumede, D M; Gumede, M M; Hanekom, D A; Hangana, N E; Hendricks, L B; Hendrickse, P A C; Hogan, B A; Holomisa, S P; Huang, S; Jacobus, L; Jeffery, J H; Johnson, C B; Johnson, M; Kasienyane, O R; Kekana, C D; Khauoe, M K; Khoarai, L P; Khumalo, K K; Khumalo, K M; Khunou, N P; Komphela, B M; Koornhof, G W; Kota, Z A; Kotwal, Z; Labuschagne, L B; Landers, L T; Lekgetho, G; Lishivha, T E; Louw, J T; Louw, S K; Ludwabe, C I; Luthuli, A N; Maake, J J; Mabandla, B S; Mabe, L L; Mabena, D C; Mabudafhasi, T R; Madasa, Z L; Madella, A F; Madlala-Routledge, N C; Maduma, L D; Madumise, M M; Magau, K R; Magubane, N E; Magwanishe, G B; Mahlaba, T L; Mahlawe, N M; Mahomed, F; Mahote, S; Maine, M S; Maja, S J; Makasi, X C; Makgate, M W; Malahlela, M J; Maloney, L; Maluleka, H P; Maluleke, D K; Manana, M N S; Manuel, T A; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Martins, B A D; Maserumule, F T; Mashangoane, P R; Mashiane, L M; Mashigo, R J; Mashile, B L; Masutha, T M; Mathebe, P M; Mathibela, N F; Matsemela, M L; Matsepe-Casaburi, I F; Matsomela, M J J; Maunye, M M; Mayatula, S M; Mbete, B; Mbili, M E; Mdaka, N M; Mdladlana, M M S; Mgabadeli, H C; Mkhize, Z S; Mkongi, B M; Mlangeni, A; Mnguni, B A; Mnyandu, B J; Moatshe, M S; Modisenyane, L J; Mofokeng, T R; Mogale, O M; Mogase, I D; Mohlaloga, M R; Mokoena, A D; Mokoto, N R; Molefe, C T; Moloto, K A; Monareng, O E; Montsitsi, S D; Moonsamy, K; Morkel, C M; Morobi, D M; Morutoa, M R; Morwamoche, K W; Mosala, B G; Moss, L N; Moss, M I; Motubatse-Hounkpatin, S D; Mpahlwa, M B; Mthembu, B; Mthethwa, E N; Mtshali, E; Mzondeki, M J G; Nash, J H; Ndlazi, Z A; Ndzanga, R A; Nel, A C; Nene, M J; Nene, N M; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngaleka, E; Ngcengwane, N D; Ngcobo, E N N; Ngcobo, N W; Ngculu, L V J; Ngwenya, M L; Ngwenya, W; Nhlengethwa, D G; Njikelana, S J; Njobe, M A A; Nkuna, C; Nogumla, R Z; Nqakula, C; Ntuli, B M; Ntuli, R S; Ntuli, S B; Nwamitwa-Shilubana, T L P; Nxumalo, M D; Nxumalo, S N; Nyambi, A J; Nyembe, K K M; Nzimande, L P M; Olifant, D A A; Oliphant, G G; Oosthuizen, G C; Padayachie, R L; Pandor, G N M; Pieterse, R D; Radebe, B A; Ramakaba-Lesiea, M M; Ramgobin, M; Ramodibe, D M; Ramotsamai, C P M; Rasmeni, S M; Reid, L R R; Rwexana, S P; Schippers, J; Schneemann, G D; Schoeman, E A; Seadimo, M D; Sefularo, M; Sekgobela, P S; Selau, J G; September, C C; Shabangu, S; Shiceka, S; Sibande, M P; Sibanyoni, J B; Sibhidla, N N; Siboza, S; Sisulu, L N; Sithole, D J; Sizani, S; Skhosana, W M; Smith, V G; Sonto, M R; Sosibo, J E; Sotyu, M M; Surty, M E; Swanson-Jacobs, J; Thabethe, E; Thomson, B; Tinto, B; Tobias, T V; Tolo, L J; Tsenoli, S L; Tshabalala- Msimang, M E; Tshivhase, T J; Tshwete, P; Turok, B; Twala, N M; Van den Heever, R P Z; Van der Merwe, S C; Van Schalkwyk, M C J; Van Wyk, A; Vundisa, S S; Wang, Y; Xolo, E T; Yengeni, L E; Zita, L; Zulu, B Z.
ABSTAIN - 4: Greyling, L W; Hoosen, M H; Jenner, I E; Nefolovhodwe, P J.
Amendments accordingly rejected.
Question put: That the South African Police Service Amendment Bill be read a second time.
Division demanded.
House divided:
AYES - 252: Abram, S; Ainslie, A R; Anthony, T G; Arendse, J D; Asiya, S E; Balfour, B M N; Baloyi, M R; Bapela, K O; Beukman, F; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, P; Bloem, D V; Bogopane-Zulu, H I; Bonhomme, T J; Booi, M S; Botha, N G W; Burgess, C V; Cachalia, I M; Carrim, Y I; Cele, M A; Chalmers, J; Chauke, H P; Chikunga, L S; Chohan, F I; Combrinck, J J; Cronin, J P; Cwele, S C; Dambuza, B N; Daniels, P; Davies, R H; De Lange, J H; Diale, L N; Dikgacwi, M M; Dithebe, S L; Dlali, D M; Dlamini- Zuma, N C; Doidge, G Q M; Du Toit, D C; Fazzie, M H; Fihla, N B; Frolick, C T; Fubbs, J L; Gabanakgosi, P S; Gaum, A H; Gcwabaza, N E; Gerber, P A; Gigaba, K M N; Godi, N T; Gogotya, N J; Gololo, C L; Gore, V C; Greyling, C H F; Gumede, D M; Gumede, M M; Hanekom, D A; Hangana, N E; Hendricks, L B; Hendrickse, P A C; Hogan, B A; Holomisa, S P; Huang, S; Jacobus, L; Jeffery, J H; Johnson, C B; Johnson, M; Kasienyane, O R; Kekana, C D; Khauoe, M K; Khoarai, L P; Khumalo, K K; Khumalo, K M; Khunou, N P; Komphela, B M; Koornhof, G W; Kota, Z A; Kotwal, Z; Landers, L T; Lekgetho, G; Lishivha, T E; Louw, J T; Louw, S K; Ludwabe, C I; Luthuli, A N; Maake, J J; Mabandla, B S; Mabe, L L; Mabena, D C; Mabudafhasi, T R; Madasa, Z L; Madella, A F; Madlala-Routledge, N C; Maduma, L D; Madumise, M M; Magau, K R; Magubane, N E; Magwanishe, G B; Mahlawe, N M; Mahomed, F; Mahote, S; Maine, M S; Maja, S J; Makasi, X C; Makgate, M W; Malahlela, M J; Maloney, L; Maluleka, H P; Maluleke, D K; Manana, M N S; Manuel, T A; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Martins, B A D; Maserumule, F T; Mashangoane, P R; Mashiane, L M; Mashigo, R J; Mashile, B L; Masutha, T M; Mathebe, P M; Mathibela, N F; Matsemela, M L; Matsepe- Casaburi, I F; Matsomela, M J J; Maunye, M M; Mayatula, S M; Mbete, B; Mbili, M E; Mdaka, N M; Mdladlana, M M S; Mgabadeli, H C; Mkhize, Z S; Mkongi, B M; Mlangeni, A; Mnguni, B A; Mnyandu, B J; Moatshe, M S; Modisenyane, L J; Mofokeng, T R; Mogale, O M; Mogase, I D; Mohlaloga, M R; Mokoena, A D; Mokoto, N R; Molefe, C T; Moloto, K A; Monareng, O E; Montsitsi, S D; Moonsamy, K; Morkel, C M; Morobi, D M; Morutoa, M R; Morwamoche, K W; Mosala, B G; Moss, L N; Moss, M I; Motubatse- Hounkpatin, S D; Mpahlwa, M B; Mthembu, B; Mthethwa, E N; Mtshali, E; Mzondeki, M J G; Nash, J H; Ndlazi, Z A; Ndzanga, R A; Nel, A C; Nene, M J; Nene, N M; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngaleka, E; Ngcengwane, N D; Ngcobo, E N N; Ngcobo, N W; Ngculu, L V J; Ngele, N J; Ngwenya, M L; Ngwenya, W; Nhlengethwa, D G; Njikelana, S J; Njobe, M A A; Nkuna, C; Nogumla, R Z; Nqakula, C; Ntuli, B M; Ntuli, M M; Ntuli, R S; Ntuli, S B; Nwamitwa-Shilubana, T L P; Nxumalo, M D; Nxumalo, S N ; Nyambi, A J; Nyembe, K K M; Nzimande, L P M; Olifant, D A A; Oliphant, G G; Oosthuizen, G C; Padayachie, R L; Pandor, G N M; Pieterse, R D; Radebe, B A; Ramakaba-Lesiea, M M; Ramgobin, M; Ramodibe, D M; Ramotsamai, C P M; Rasmeni, S M; Reid, L R R; Rwexana, S P; Schippers, J; Schneemann, G D; Schoeman, E A; Seadimo, M D; Sefularo, M; Sekgobela, P S; Selau, J G; September, C C; Shabangu, S; Shiceka, S; Sibande, M P; Sibanyoni, J B; Sibhidla, N N; Siboza, S; Sisulu, L N; Sithole, D J; Sizani, S; Skhosana, W M; Smith, V G; Solo, B M; Sonto, M R; Sosibo, J E; Sotyu, M M; Surty, M E; Swanson-Jacobs, J; Thabethe, E; Thomson, B; Tinto, B; Tobias, T V; Tolo, L J; Tsenoli, S L; Tshabalala-Msimang, M E; Tshivhase, T J; Tshwete, P; Turok, B; Twala, N M; Vadi, I; Van den Heever, R P Z; Van der Merwe, S C; Van Schalkwyk, M C J; Van Wyk, A; Vundisa, S S; Wang, Y; Xolo, E T; Yengeni, L E; Zita, L; Zulu, B Z.
NOES - 63: Bekker, H J; Bhengu, M J; Bici, J; Blanch, J P I; Boinamo, G G; Botha, A; Botha, C-S; Camerer, S M; Cupido, H B; Davidson, I O; Delport, J T; Ditshetelo, P H K; Doman, W P; Dreyer, A M; Dudley, C; Ellis, M J; Farrow, S B; George, D T; Greyling, L W; Groenewald, P J; Holomisa, B H; Hoosen, M H; Jenner, I E; Joubert, L K; Julies, I F; Kalyan, S V; Kganyago, N M; King, R J; Kohler-Barnard, D; Labuschagne, L B; Lebenya, P; Lee, T D; Marais, S J F; Masango, S J; Minnie, K J; Morgan, G R; Mpontshane, A M; Nefolovhodwe, P J; Nel, A H; Nkabinde, N C; Opperman, S E; Rabie, P J; Rabinowitz, R; Roopnarain, U; Sayedali- Shah, M R; Seaton, S A; Selfe, J; Semple, J A; Sibuyana, M W; Sigcau, S N; Simmons, S; Singh, N; Smuts, M; Swart, M; Swart, P S; Swathe, M M; Trent, E W; Van der Merwe, J H; Van Der Walt, D; Van Dyk, S M; Waters, M; Weber, H; Zikalala, C N Z.
ABSTAIN - 1: Mfundisi, I S.
South African Police Service Amendment Bill accordingly read a second time.