Thank you very much, Deputy Speaker. Well, I hope that I'm not going to fall into the category of ubab' uKomphela [Mr Komphela] in terms of the ability to remember who is chairing, who is presiding.
Deputy Speaker, comrades in Cabinet, Deputy Ministers, hon members and ladies and gentlemen, it is with a great sense of pride and honour that we present in this august House a process that will be undertaken in developing a Green Paper that will subsequently lead to the White Paper on Co-operative Governance in South Africa.
An attempt has been made in the past to ensure that legislatively the Intergovernmental Relations Framework Act of 2005 was developed with the aim of trying to translate Chapter 3 of the Constitution on co-operative governance. The Constitution of the Republic of South Africa recognises and appreciates the fact that there are three spheres of government in this country: they are interdependent, they are interrelated, and they are autonomous, meaning that we recognise the fact that South Africa is one country, has one President and that we must move to a situation in which there is one system.
On 11 May 2009, the President of the Republic, with his visionary insight, established the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs. This happened after the weaknesses had been identified. These weaknesses were related to the issue of policy development, implementation, monitoring and evaluation, budgeting, and the utilisation of human resources. As much as the outcome recognises the fact that there is a lot of duplication, there is a silo mentality and, at the same time, there is a challenge in respect of co-operation and co-ordination within the spheres of government.
The resources that are quite important in respect of human resources and financing, as well as time which is a precious commodity, illustrated that they are not utilised optimally. Therefore, the issue here is that, at times, we don't get value for money. Our motto that has been borrowed from the people's movement, the ANC says: "Together we can do more", and we can do more with fewer resources and with less input for greater output and greater outcomes. We are saying it cannot be business as usual. We must do things differently, particularly under this global economic meltdown. This situation compels us to mend our ways.
It is against this background that we are embarking on a process of developing a Green Paper on Co-operative Governance. It is an area in which we haven't claimed to be specialists or in which we haven't claimed authority. Therefore, we are calling upon all South Africans from all walks of life, from across the length and breadth of our country, to come forward and assist in developing a system of co- operative governance in this country that is simple, uncomplicated, easily understandable and accessible, a system that incentivises value for money and maximises the impact as a result of co-ordination and co-operation between government with all its spheres and the people of South Africa.
Let us look at where we are structurally within the three spheres of government. In South Africa, at a national level, we have a Cabinet, which is the highest decision-making body in government, with its committees. We also have the Fosad, the Forum of South African Directors-General, which is a structure of officials - where the DGs are sitting. We have the provincial executive councils and their committees, and on an administrative level they are led by Fosad. In local government, we have mayoral or executive committees with their committees. Administratively these structures are led by municipal managers.
The co-ordination of these structures in all these spheres is as follows. The supreme body is the Presidential Co-ordinating Council where the President, with the premiers and, of course, the mayors and also some - not all - Ministers sit. We also have 16 Minmec which are sectoral structures dealing with concurrent functions. We have nine premiers' intergovernmental fora, and 46 district intergovernmental fora that are led by the mayors of the districts working with local mayors. These are the structures that are prevailing. The SA Local Government Association, Salga, participates in these structures.
We are going to be assessing the efficiency and efficacy of the structures, looking at their output and at the value added in the system of governance. There is a litany of structures between government and civil-society formations which, as we speak, we do not know how many of them there are. We will be doing an assessment of the structures; we will be looking at them. We will also be looking at the issue of trying to avoid public participation fatigue. In addition, we will be looking at resources of these structures as to whether we are funding democracy in the proper way.
On concurrent functions, this process will also inform us whether nationally agreed-to priorities are implemented by provinces as they are supposed to be. We have agreed that the Green Paper will be ready in April 2010. That Green Paper will be presented, having been developed allowing a process of consultation and engagement. This process will be led by an interdepartmental team, composed of Cogta, the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs; the Presidency, the National Treasury, the Department of the Public Service and Administration, the Department of Health, the Department of Education, the Department of Social Development, the Department of Human Settlements, the Department of Rural Development and Land Reform, the Department of Water and Environmental Affairs, the Department of Energy, the Department of Police, the Department of Economic Development, and the SA Local Government Association, Salga.
Whilst the policy is being developed, there are interim arrangements that have been agreed upon by Cabinet. These arrangements say that in terms of concurrent functions, when a Minister goes to a community, the Minister must be able to engage with the premier of the province, must be able to engage with his or her counterparts at the local level on concurrent functions, and must be able to communicate with the district and local municipalities about the visit so that we are able to promote co-ordination and co-operation on the way in which things are being done as we go forward.
We have agreed that these guidelines must be followed. I want to say at this sitting that some premiers - about five of them - have written letters raising the same issues before even being told: that when leaders go into their own areas they would like to be extended the courtesy of being told beforehand. This is because at times there are commitments that are made by national leaders, and you find that national leaders, when they are no longer there, the issues still remain with the local leadership. Therefore the best thing to do is to ensure that we work together cohesively and coherently in the way we do things.
The other area that has been agreed upon, that is going to be taken up, is that when powers and functions are assigned, it must be done within a policy framework and a set of guidelines that is called "Assignment of Powers and Functions," which was developed in 2007. We are saying the letter and spirit of this policy have to be followed, because this will prevent a situation in which unfunded mandates are given to municipalities in a way that undermines their ability to do the work.
The review of the concurrent functions will be done by the sectors, co- ordinated, of course, by Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, which will, in turn, report to Cabinet on a quarterly basis, also looking at the value added of these structures.
I must say, in the execution of this duty, we'll be meeting with the leader of the DA, the Premier of the Western Cape, at which we will be discussing some of the areas of disagreement with regard to the visit of the Minister to Mitchells Plain and Khayelitsha, where the water was cut off. You may find that we're not singing from the same page in our engagement of these issues.
Therefore, what we are saying is that we'll be meeting to look at effecting the prescripts of the intergovernmental relations framework, wherein, if there are disputes or disagreements between the spheres of government, they must be able to sit down and engage. We'll be engaging on this, but I must hasten to say that people must know that there is no part of South Africa where the national government is not going to go, irrespective of any party that is governing that area. [Applause.]
We must allow a situation in which, if citizens in a particular area are calling upon a Minister or an MEC or the President, these people have the right to go and listen to the people on the ground, and we are going to do the same. The Western Cape as a province, Cape Town as a municipality, are not going to be excluded from that or treated specially when we deal with those issues. [Interjections.] [Applause.]
We are calling upon everyone who has a contribution to make to come to the party when we conclude. Leonard Bernstein said:
If the conductor uses a baton, the baton itself must be a living thing, charged with a kind of electricity, which makes it an instrument of meaning in its tiniest movement.
Many voices, but one message, melody and song! Thank you very much. [Applause.] [Interjections.]
Deputy Speaker, again today the Minister showed respect for this institution of Parliament by coming to us and also by showing respect for us as public representatives to outline what he's going to do and giving us in the House the opportunity to reflect on it.
I've got a government document here. On page 7 his predecessor promised us that by the end of 2008 that there would be a new White Paper on provinces and a review report on local government, but the Minister is picking up that baton and we will support him as far as possible.
I want to tell the hon Minister that he's very welcome to visit municipalities and the province that is governed by the DA. We've got some good practices there that he can learn from and also take to the ANC provinces. [Applause.] [Interjections.]
I'm also very glad that he is in a conciliatory mood with the Premier of the Western Cape about the visit to Mitchells Plain and Khayelitsha; I'm sure that that will be resolved. He actually only made only one mistake and that was to go with the hon Fransman to that area! [Laughter.] [Interjections.]
The DA agrees that our country needs a major public debate about our system of co-operative governance. We need a governance system that is more effective and efficient, and which better addresses the needs of our people. This review should be driven by what we need in practice. We need that powers and functions of the different spheres should be more clearly defined and that unfunded mandates of, especially, municipalities are resolved.
It is clear from the protests that ordinary citizens do not know which sphere of government is responsible for what. Houses, for example, are demanded from municipalities while it is not their function. We need greater national co-ordination and the alignment of planning. The integrated development plans of municipalities are everything but integrated with the municipal budgets, let alone provincial planning, and therefore remain wish lists of communities.
We need better assistance financially and otherwise, and better oversight, especially over municipalities, not in a manner to infringe on their autonomy, but to assist them to fully fulfil their role. Therefore we need intergovernmental relations to be properly structured and practised to their full potential.
In addressing these challenges it will be important to remember that the Constitution is our founding document for the new South Africa. It contains the basic agreements we reached and it must bind us all together in our quest for solutions to improve our governance system. Therefore changes to the Constitution should not be made lightly, and if any are necessary, they should be made in the same spirit of consensus-seeking that underpinned the crucial agreements that were reached with the interim and final Constitution.
The creation of provinces is one such agreement that we should respect. The whole system of co-operative governance of the three spheres lies, as you've said, at the heart of our Constitution and should also be respected as such. Therefore, because this is so important, we would like to remind you that proper consultation with the public is an absolute necessity, Minister. In this regard the Minister should allow proper time for inputs and comments, and allow for everyone to be heard.
In many ways we are in a crisis, especially at local government level, and therefore we have to address the significant amount of fraud and corruption that is taking place. We have a breakdown in communication, and I think we can do better. Thank you very much. [Time expired.] [Applause.]
Hon Deputy Speaker, Cope welcomes the process outlined by the Minister towards a streamlined institutional arrangement, which seeks to improve service delivery at both provincial and local spheres of government.
However, Cope believes that the success of this process will depend on the respect given to the constitutional autonomy of each sphere of government. In pursuing the consultative process, the government will have to adhere to the principles of separation of powers between government and political party and between the ruling party and organs of civil society.
Cope is already worried about the trend that is beginning to emerge in the country where officials of the party go around the country replacing municipal officials, mayors and councillors. We are not sure what the role of the Minister is and what the role of the party is.
Co-operative governance, as has already been said, is the cornerstone of our Constitution and the success of our delivery processes. It is therefore necessary to respect and encourage the fact that each sphere plays a role that it is mandated to carry out by the Constitution, without interference from party structures. But it also needs to be empowered to carry out these roles, and it would be a pity if in each sphere of government when there is a different party in power, that the national government would seek to interfere with the running of the affairs of that particular sphere of government. [Applause.]
We hope that the proposed amendments to the Constitution are not seeking to undermine the democracy that is enshrined in our Constitution. Thank you. [Applause.]
Deputy Speaker, I would like to start by thanking the Minister for bringing this to us in the House. We think it's a very good thing that he presents it here. And I would like to say to him that we will gladly engage in the process. We are pleased too that he is doing a Green Paper too before a White Paper. There are departments that leap from nowhere to a White Paper, leaving no space for public participation. So, thank you for that.
But I would like to make two comments that are pertinent, I hope, to this discussion. The first is that you are going to have to strike a balance between voluntarism and commandism in the way you balance the extent of regulation. The tendency at the moment I suspect in government is to leap on the side of a more regulatory framework, which may or may not be appropriate, because if we are talking about co-operative governance, we need people to co-operate and forcing people to co-operate is a bit of an oxymoron. You may as well do away with the word co-operative if you are telling them what to do. So that is the first caution.
The second one - and this is nine seconds, and I speak ... [Inaudible.] I don't know which one it is. Sorry, Chair, on my little thing there, the computer, it said I had two minutes. Here it says I have 10 seconds.
Now, you don't even have those two minutes.
On those computer things there on my desk, it says two minutes. [Interjections.] So it should be one minute more now.
No, no. Just continue.
So, Chair, that is my first caution: strike a balance between the two.
The second caution, Minister, is that please do not see regulating IGR as the Holy Grail of government failures. It is important, of course, to get your IGR working properly, but there are other very important issues that are just as important, if not more important, if you want government to work. Frankly, to ascribe failings of government basically to the IGR system that is not doing its job is a weak excuse.
Let me give some values and other things that are just as important. How about efficiency, dedication, hard work, integrity, clean governance, a good service ethic, common sense and value for money? All these issues, I would argue, are just as important in sorting out government failures as good as IGR. So, when you get involved with the White Paper, please let's not think that that White Paper process and even implementing it will solve everything. It is just part of a far bigger picture of problems that you need to address yourself to as government. Thank you.
Deputy Speaker, my advice to my colleague is that he must play 30 Seconds more often, then 60 seconds will feel very long.
Ek wil vir die agb Minister s dat hy baie dinge in die openbaar s en dit is ook duidelik dat hy hier, met die witskrif wat ter sprake gaan kom, 'n poging aanwend om wel die probleme van plaaslike regering aan te spreek. Ek wil ook vir u, agb Minister, s dat u in hierdie hele proses moet luister na wat die voorstelle van die opposisie is. U moet luister as ons met voorstelle na u toe kom, want ons is ook hierso in belang van Suid-Afrika.
Ek het in 1998 hier van dieselfde podium vir die Minister, ek dink dit was toe Sidney Mufamadi, ges plaaslike regering is die bom wat ons land in duie gaan laat stort en dit is presies wat gebeur het. U moet nie wag tot ons op so 'n stadium kom dat alles in duie gestort het voor u begin luister na die opposisie nie. Dan sal ons 'n beter Suid-Afrika kry met 'n beter bedeling op plaaslike regeringsvlak, en ek stem saam met die agb lid van die DA dat ons nie net kan torring aan die Grondwet wanneer dit ons pas nie. Aan die ander kant, het die DA drie grondwetwysigings voorgestel om oorlopery toe te pas, so hulle is die laaste om te praat. Dankie. [Tyd verstreke.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)
[I want to inform the hon Minister that he is saying a lot of things in public and it is also evident here, with the White Paper coming up for discussion, that he is making an effort to address the problems of local government. I also want to tell you, hon Minister, that you should listen to the opposition's proposals in this whole process. You should listen when we come to you with proposals, because we are also acting in South Africa's interest.
In 1998, from this very podium, I told the Minister, I think it was Sidney Mufamadi at the time, that local government is the bomb that will bring our country to ruin and that is exactly what happened. You should not wait until we have reached the stage where everything has fallen into disrepair before you start listening to the opposition. Then we will give rise to a better South Africa with a better dispensation at local government level, and I agree with the hon member of the DA that we cannot just meddle with the Constitution when it suits us. On the other hand, the DA proposed three amendments to the Constitution to implement floor crossing, so they should be the last to point a finger. I thank you. [Time expired.]]
Deputy Speaker, the ACDP appreciates the willingness of the hon Minister to face the harsh reality that many of South Africa's 283 municipalities have been in a state of paralysis and dysfunction.
The commitment of the Minister and the department to providing hands-on support to provincial and local government will hopefully better position them to fulfil their functions and produce results. Service delivery is in a crisis and people's patience has worn thin.
The ACDP is aware that extraordinary interventions will be necessary as public perception of local government is that it is incompetent, disorganised and riddled with corruption and maladministration.
Hon Minister, have all municipalities developed a service delivery and comprehensive infrastructure plan to address backlogs? Do they have a debt recovery plan? Has the proposed review of Salga taken place yet, in terms of its role and relevance? And what progress has been made in ensuring better communication with communities?
The ACDP supports the process outlined regarding the Green and White Papers on co-operative governance. Thank you.
Madam Deputy Speaker, we in the UCDP believe that the White Paper on Co-operative Governance relates more to our rural areas and that the people it relates to should be more informed of its contents.
We also feel that it would be important for them to give their input on the White Paper and that the Paper must be translated into more languages. Other than those suggestions, the UCDP supports the White Paper on Co- operative Governance. I thank you.
Madam Deputy Speaker, the leader of the MF played a very important role at Codessa. The provisions in the Constitution - the interim Constitution - about traditional affairs was hurriedly done.
The 1996 legislation was a haphazard affair. The 1996 legislation has had many faults and the amendments in 2000 have had a lot of deficiencies and discrepancies. So, everything was hurried.
But the 2003 White Paper has consolidated everything, and that is why we have new legislation which embraces everything and puts all differences in their true perspective.
The relationship between the House of Traditional Leaders and the national provincial level is indeed pertinent, and the relationship between national government and the traditional leaders is a must.
However, in KwaZulu-Natal, Zulus are divided, and the MF stance is that where Zulus are divided, the MF will not take any side and we will remain neutral. Thank you. [Interjections.]
Madam Deputy Speaker, good afternoon. The hon Bhoola lives on another planet. Such confusion emerging from him is quite surprising. I thought he understood things slightly better than what he is displaying these days. He needs some treatment, but I don't know where. Comrade Minister, many years ago the ANC indicated its intention of building a nonracial, nonsexist, democratic and united country and society. So the first reference, in as far as we are concerned in the ANC, is that that unity will emerge and come from the state system operating in a coherent, united manner.
We hope that the contributions that are going to be made will be with a view to developing a coherent state system that answers the needs of the majority of the people in this country who are poor. That is why we will agree with you that perhaps we need a framework that will guide our actions, inside the state, and across the board, but especially giving flesh to the name of the department.
That is why we learned from others. Before Samora Machel died he complained bitterly - as part of the reconstruction and development of Mozambique - that the departments were not going together to communities to deal with people's problems. As a result, communities were frustrated. And even as he was saying that - this was many years ago - it was not only in Mozambique where he felt they were experiencing such inabilities, unwillingness or problematic relationships amongst departments in working together to generate a coherent response to people's needs.
I would like us to provide answers to those questions. Part of the problems we were confronting is precisely the incoherent way in which we interact with communities with regard to the stress of especially local government. So the White Paper, ultimately, on this matter of co-operation will speak, we hope, to those concerns in terms of giving meaning to collaboration and co-operation.
Before we start doing anything, let us ask each other who else is affected by what we are going to do. What are the consequences of going ahead without reference to them and what they are doing? How can they add value to what we are going to do? In that sense, I suspect we will be beginning to work towards achieving the goals we want to achieve of better collaboration and co-operation across the three spheres.
Hon Doman, you spoiled your good appreciation of the Minister's intentions here by calling it a mistake when he goes with a Member of Parliament to a constituency he serves - after you said you appreciated his appreciation of these institutions of public representatives. We are public representatives, even outside of this Chamber. It is appropriate that even when Ministers go out in the constituencies, they interact with Members of Parliament who service those constituencies. It makes sense to me, and I would have thought it would be a logical extension in respect of your appreciation, though not for political expediency because you disagree with some of the things that Mr Fransman said - that he should not be included in the consultation process.
We appreciate, Mr Minister, your indication of your intention to initiate this process. One of the reasons why it is important to indicate your intention of developing this is that we are then in a position to go back to our constituencies, to the departments that we interact with, to raise issues that, in our opinion, will contribute to a meaningful debate, discussion and dialogue on what we think collaboration and co-operation are. This is the value of indicating your intention here, so that we can be better prepared to engage with the process.
The question that the hon Dudley asked is what you said earlier in the announcement on the work of the department that is in the process of being done. So these things are going to happen simultaneously, as I understand, in that the support that the municipalities are receiving towards the formulation of comprehensive infrastructure plans is work in progress. Therefore, it cannot be expected that municipalities must first sort this out and then later on think and reflect about the White Paper on collaboration.
In our opinion, it is correct that even as we take action, learn from that action, develop a process of giving that meaning in a framework that guides the work going forward, we think that basic stuff such as respect shown by bureaucrats, efficiency and so on go without saying. This is what Ministers and their leadership in the department do on a regular basis. Where there are failures, they must be attended to. But those cannot be used as a basis for denying the significance of a process to unleash a consultative process to invite Members of Parliament and organisations outside Parliament to contribute to the question of how best we can respond to collaboration on the ground.
What are the experiences that we have as MPs, as organisations of civil society, as departments on the problems of collaboration and co-operation, because they lie at the heart of ineffective delivery of resources that are limited? We will benefit, sir, I believe, from such co-operation that will emerge.
It is also appropriate in my opinion that this is the Fourth Parliament run by the ANC. Also, after 15 years it is appropriate that we review how we have done things in the past. We must learn from that past so that we do not repeat the mistakes of the past. We have repeated them often enough. Ons is nou moeg [We are now tired] of repeating those mistakes. It is appropriate that now we must provide some answers on paper that can continue to guide us going forward, whatever its colour is. Thank you very much, Minister. [Applause.]
Debate concluded.