APPROPRIATION BILL (Consideration of Votes and Schedule)

Madam Deputy Speaker, the DA has no option but to call for a division on this Vote and make a declaratory statement in this regard.

Besides the fact that the President's first year in office has been somewhat of an annus horribilis, and despite the enormous opportunity that goes with being the host country for the 2010 football World Cup, there have been many - too many - instances that have compromised not only the person of the President, but also the office.

This Vote's allocation has grown systematically over the past few years and the projections for further exponential growth are frankly a matter of grave concern. This budget has grown at an average rate of 45,6% between 2006-07 and 2009-10.

The Presidency has also recently adopted two infants, namely the National Planning Commission and the monitoring and evaluation commission. This in itself - despite the fact that their budgetary allocation is R50 million, which makes up only 7% of the total budget of the Presidency, and the fact that the two commissions have only recently began crawling, literally - demands of this Parliament an appropriate oversight authority to evaluate the performance of these commissions and monitor their expenditure, as with all the other departments.

The balance of this not inconsiderable budget of R677 million is at the disposal of the Presidency. It remains an anathema to me that there has to date not been an oversight authority that has interrogated the expenditure of the Presidency in preceding years, so as to appropriately interrogate the current budget proposals. It is inconceivable that any budget can be passed for any ensuing period without proper accounting for what has previously been appropriated.

It is therefore just not possible to approve this allocation and we will remain constrained in this regard until an appropriate oversight authority or mechanism is established. The DA hereby notes its objection to the Budget Vote No 1 - The Presidency.

Chairperson, any government which is inefficient tries to correct that inefficiency by becoming bigger and more expensive. That is exactly what this government has done. We have one of the most bloated Cabinets in the world.

While a huge country like the United States of America has 15 executive departments, we in South Africa now have 35 ministries! Similarly, the Federal Republic of Germany has 15 ministries. Russia, which is another huge country, has 17 ministries. The cost of government is imposing an intolerable burden on the country. As we already have a fiscal deficit, government is going to have to increase taxes because it will not be willing to cut down on its size.

On top of that, we have a President who does not seem to relate very well to the Constitution. On Sunday, 23 May 2010, the President told the citizens in Nelspruit that anyone who dared to leave the party would be exposed by the ancestors and will get stick! [Interjections.] People are being intimidated and lied to.

Earlier, there was the incident of the jogger from the University of Cape Town, who was bullied. All in all, this President is not leading a government that is delivering a better life for all. Cope will not support this Vote. [Interjections.]. Thank you.

Chairperson, when we debated the hon Dandala's motion of no confidence in the President of South Africa, the ACDP gave reasons why we supported the motion. To show consistency and continuity on our part, the ACDP will not be supporting Budget Vote No 1-The Presidency. [Interjections.]

Under President Zuma's leadership, state expenditure has increased substantially; the latest addition being the more than R15 million in taxpayer's money that will have to be paid to maintain his three wives and fianc. [Interjections.]

The President has failed to show overall leadership in times of crisis and violent protests which are a response to poor service delivery. The ACDP will therefore not support this Budget Vote. Thank you.

House Chairperson, the ANC rises in support of Budget Vote No 1: The Presidency. The budget contains the key elements to implement the vision and programme of action of this government.

Upon assuming the high office of President of the Republic, President Zuma committed the government to working tirelessly towards fundamental change in the lives of all South Africans, especially the poorest of the poor.

The levels of interaction with ordinary people and key stakeholders in society have become one of the salient features of the Presidency. The bulk of the money, which totals R465,1 million, is targeting executive co- ordination that includes policy co-ordination, the Cabinet office and the National Youth Development Agency. As the ANC, we encourage the Presidency to continue on this path.

We are really disappointed to learn that the only motivation of the DA to challenge this budget is because there is no monitoring mechanism. This is despite the fact that the DA has submitted names for the constitution of a task team to do that. [Interjections.] So, in short, it means you have no viable motivation for what you are doing. [Interjections.]

With regard to Cope, Cope is a chicken without a head. [Interjections.] How can we listen to a chicken without a head; it will mislead us. [Interjections.] [Time expired.]

Division demanded.

The House divided:

AYES - 215: Abram, S; Adams, P E; Baloyi, M R; Bam-Mugwanya, V; Bhengu, N R; Bhengu, P; Bikani, F C; Bogopane-Zulu, H I; Booi, M S; Borman, G M; Boshigo, D F; Botha, Y R; Burgess, C V; Buthelezi, M G; Carrim, Y I; Cebekhulu, R N; Chauke, H P; Chikunga, L S; Chohan, F I; Coleman, E M; Cronin, J P; Cwele, S C; De Lille, P; Diale, L N; Dikgacwi, M M; Dlakude, D E; Dlamini, B O; Dlamini-Zuma, N C; Dlodlo, A; Doidge, G Q M; Dubazana, Z S; Dube, M C; Dunjwa, M L; Fihla, N B; Fransman, M L; Frolick, C T; Fubbs, J L; Gasebonwe, T M A; Gelderblom, J P; Gigaba, K M N; Gina, N; Godongwana, E; Gololo, C L; Gona, M F; Gumede, D M; Gungubele, M; Gxowa, N B; Hajaig, F; Hogan, B A; Hoosen, M H; Huang, S-B; Jacobus, L; Jeffery, J H; Joemat-Pettersson, T M; Johnson, M; Kekana, C D; Kenye, T E; Khoarai, L P; Kholwane, S E; Khumalo, F E; Khunou, N P; Komphela, B M; Koornhof, G W; Kota-Fredericks, Z A; Kubayi, M T; Landers, L T; Lebenya- Ntanzi, S P; Lekgetho, G; Line, H; Lishivha, T E; Luyenge, Z; Maake, J J; Mabasa, X; Mabedla, N R; Mabuza, M C; Madlala, N M; Mafolo, M V; Magagula, V V; Magama, H T; Magau, K R; Magazi, M N; Magwanishe, G; Mahlangu-Nkabinde, G L; Makhuba, H N; Makhubela-Mashele, L S; Makhubele, Z S; Makwetla, S P; Malgas, H H; Maluleka, H P; Maluleke, J M; Manamela, K B; Manana, M C; Mandela, Z M D; Manganye, J; Manuel, T A; Mapisa- Nqakula, N N; Martins, B A D; Mashigo, R M; Mashishi, A C; Masilo, J M; Masutha, T M; Mataboge, D K; Mathebe, D H; Mathebe, P M; Mathibela, N F; Matshoba, J M; Maunye, M M; Mavunda, D W; Maziya, A M; Mbalula, F A; Mc Gluwa, J J; Mdakane, M R; Mdladlana, M M S; Mentor, M P; Mfeketo, N C; Mgabadeli, H C; Mjobo, L N; Mkhulusi, N N P; Mlambo, E M; Mlangeni, A; Mmusi, S G; Mnisi, N A; Mohale, M C; Mokoena, A D; Molebatsi, M A; Molewa, B E E; Moloi-Moropa, J C; Morutoa, M R; Moss, L N; Motimele, M S; Motshekga, M A; Motshekga, M S; Msweli, H S; Mthethwa, E M; Mthethwa, E N; Mtshali, E; Mushwana, F F; Muthambi, A F; Nchabeleng, M E; Ndabandaba, L B G; Ndabeni, S T; Ndebele, J S; Ndlovu, V B; Nelson, W J; Newhoudt- Druchen, W S; Ngcengwane, N D; Ngcobo, B T; Ngcobo, E N N; Ngele, N J; Ngwenya, W; Ngwenya-Mabila, P C; Nhlengethwa, D G; Njikelana, S J; Nkwinti, G E; Nonkonyana, M; November, N T; Ntapane, S Z; Ntuli, Z C; Nxesi, T W; Nyalungu, R E; Nyanda, M F; Nyekemba, E; Oliphant, G G; Oosthuizen, G C; Pandor, G N M; Petersen-Maduna, P; Phaahla, M J; Phaliso, M N; Pilusa-Mosoane, M E; Radebe, B A; Radebe, G S; Radebe, J T; Ramatlhodi, N A; Rantsolase, M A; Saal, G; Segale-Diswai, M J; Selau, G J; Sexwale, T M G; Shiceka, S; Sibanyoni, J B; Sibhida, N N ; Sithole, K P; Sithole, S C N; Sizani, P S; Skosana, J J; Sogoni, E M; Sonjica, B P; Sonto, M R; Sosibo, J E; Sotyu, M M; Suka, L; Sulliman, E M; Sunduza, T B; Surty, M E; Thabethe, E; Thobejane, S G; Thomson, B; Tinto, B; Tsebe, S R; Tseke, G K; Tsenoli, S L; Tshivhase, T J; Tshwete, P; Tsotetsi, D R; Turok, B; Twala, N M; Vadi, I; Van der Merwe, S C; Van Rooyen, D D; Van Wyk, A; Xaba, P P; Yengeni, L E; Zikalala, C N Z; Zondi, K M; Zulu, B Z.

NOES - 66: Alberts, A D; Boinamo, G G; Bosman, L L; Coetzee, T W; Davidson, I O; De Freitas, M S F; Doman, W P; Du Toit, N D; Dudley, C; Duncan, P C; Ellis, M J; Farrow, S B; Fritz, A T; George, D T; Groenewald, P J; James, W G; Kalyan, S V; Kloppers-Lourens, J C; Kohler- Barnard, D; Lamoela, H; Lee, T D; Lorimer, J R B; Lotriet, A; Louw, A; Lovemore, A T; MacKenzie, G D; Marais, E J; Marais, S J F; Masango, S J; Maynier, D J; Mazibuko, L D; Meshoe, K R J; Michael, N W A; Mnguni, P B; Mokgalapa, S; More, E; Morgan, G R; Motau, S C; Mubu, K S; Mulder, C P; Nhanha, M A; Njobe, M A A; Ntshiqela, P; Ollis, I M; Poho, P; Rabie, P J; Rabotapi, M W; Robinson, D; Ross, D; Schmidt, H C; Selfe, J; Shinn, M R; Smiles, D C; Steele, M H; Steyn, A; Steyn, A C; Swart, M; Swathe, M M; Trollip, R A P; Van Dalen, P; Van der Linde, J J; Van der Walt, D; Van Dyk, S M; Van Schalkwyk, H C; Waters, M; Wenger, M.

Vote accordingly agreed to.

Vote 2 - Parliament - put.

Declarations of vote:

Chairperson, unfortunately for the members who are making a noise, Cope will support the Budget Vote on Parliament, but with a strong word of caution and much reservation. We need to develop and build a strong culture of oversight, as this is one of the most important tools that we can utilise to strengthen our democracy and take our nation forward.

The necessary policy and tools are in place. However, implementation is the problem. We need to ensure that every Minister submits to the oversight mechanism so that the government is seen to be placing a high premium on accountability. This is what society is demanding and if we are the people's government, we should oblige.

Cope supports the demand for Ministers to respond to questions in earnest and on time in order not to render the process futile. Cope also urges the reintroduction of interpellations without any further delay. This is supposed to be the year of action and the Speaker of the House must actually lead from the very front. Thank you.

Chairperson, the fourth democratic Parliament which is an activist Parliament, is tasked with oversight and I want to remind the hon member from Cope that oversight is not only about asking questions to the executive. Asking questions is one of those elements and there are other areas of responsibility where parties need to exercise those responsibilities.

It means that we need to ensure that the lawmaking process is improved in such a way that it improves the lives of our people. Yes, we need to intensify our oversight, but we also need to ensure that public participation is not left behind.

We also need to ensure that all the structures that we have put in place are operationalised to make the fourth democratic Parliament more effective. In this light, the strategic plan that has been tabled by the Speaker has been scrutinised, commented on and adopted.

May I finally add that I am glad to hear that Cope is not going to object to the Budget Vote because it is the very same Budget Vote that is assisting them to organise their first congress. Thank you very much. [Applause.]

Vote agreed to.

Vote No 3 - Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs - put.

Declarations of vote:

Chairperson, last year the DA supported this Vote, believing that the new Minister and Deputy Minister would ensure that the department's budget would help to turn around the poor service delivery experienced at the majority of municipalities.

Unfortunately, the general state of municipalities and service delivery are now worse with more than 50 major protests taking place all over the country since the national elections. Twenty-four municipalities are currently under administration and many others are in distress. The vacancy rates at municipalities are not coming down.

Nepotism is rife and incompetent connected cadres are appointed. Exorbitant packages are paid to top officials, resulting in salaries comprising more than 50% of the total expenditure of municipalities.

Skuld aan munisipaliteite, des ondanks gedeeltelike afskrywing, het toegeneem tot R57 miljard. Goedkoop politiekery om stemme te koop, veroorsaak dat die ANC-beheerde rade nie skuld invorder of streng kredietbeheer toepas nie, en veral nie voor verkiesings nie.

Die weerhouding van betaling deur enige een is onwettig en dit is jammer dat die Minister die rassekaart speel deur slegs op wit weerhouding te konsentreer. Die Minister en sy departement het ook nie daarin geslaag om nasionale en provinsionale departmente te kry om hul munisipale rekeninge af te los nie. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[Municipal debts, despite partial write-off, has increased to R57 billion. Cheap politicking to buy votes gives rise to the fact that ANC-led councils are not collecting debts or enforcing strict credit control measures, especially not prior to elections.

It is illegal for anyone to withhold payment and it is a pity that the Minister is playing the race card by only focusing on whites withholding payments. The Minister and his department also failed in getting national and provincial departments to settle their municipal accounts.]

It became glaringly obvious in recent visits to municipalities by the oversight committees of Parliament that a number of them are misusing the municipal infrastructure grant allocated by this department - and your responsibility - for daily running costs of the municipality.

With the poor state of local government and a department, which according to the Auditor-General's report, had two fraudulent matters amounting to R37,6 million to deal with and which, according to Auditor-General's report, also lacks the evidence to prove its actual performance in terms of free basic service infrastructure and free basic co-ordination, the DA cannot support this Vote. [Applause.]

Chairperson, the Empowerdex Service Delivery Index released a damning report on the state of the 231 municipalities for the six district municipalities and six metropolitan municipalities. According to media reports, in some municipalities, less than 20% of households were receiving basic services. Violent protests because of poor service delivery are far too frequent.

The ACDP believes taxpayers and citizens in general do not get value for the money they pay in rates and taxes. Even cities in the homelands and under Bantustan administrations were much cleaner than the filth we see today. Because local government is failing us dismally, the ACDP will not support this Budget Vote.

Chairperson, the ANC will obviously support this Budget Vote. Some of the criticisms that members are raising show that they were listening to the Minister properly during his presentation of the report. His frankness has bowled them over completely.

They are unable to deal with the reality that they have supported the turnaround strategy and that for that to happen government needs to have the money that this Budget provides. What sense does it make, therefore, to object to this programme? The fact that they themselves have acknowledged this, goes a long way. It is a very frank assessment of the state of affairs; and it is a big, interesting programme to deal with the issues of local government.

The ANC supports it also because we recognise that the developments that we are dealing with are in no small measure because of the persistence of levels of poverty in our country and the fact that incapacity is partly attributable to that reality. We will not forget the reality that part of the problem is reversing the effects of the past.

The President has announced that his regular interaction with his Ministers is intended to provide support for the weaknesses we are identifying. The reality of programmes that are now emerging, and developing and the signing of outcomes-oriented government programmes are an indication of that commitment. There is no way, given the programme of the fourth Parliament and administration, that those will see the light of day in nine months. We are obviously hoping that the commitment shown by Salga, the municipalities itself, provincial elements and others to deal with all the problems identified will not be questioned. We hope that members will support those activities to ensure a real turnaround so that people are served better and given quality services to boot. Thank you. [Applause.]

Division demanded.

The House divided:

AYES - 221: Abram, S; Adams, P E; Baloyi, M R; Bam-Mugwanya, V; Bhengu, N R; Bhengu, P; Bikani, F C; Bogopane-Zulu, H I; Booi, M S; Borman, G M; Boshigo, D F; Botha, Y R; Burgess, C V; Buthelezi, M G; Carrim, Y I; Cebekhulu, R N; Chauke, H P; Chikunga, L S; Chohan, F I; Coleman, E M; Cronin, J P; Cwele, S C; Diale, L N; Dikgacwi, M M; Dlakude, D E; Dlamini, B O; Dlamini-Zuma, N C; Dlodlo, A; Doidge, G Q M; Dubazana, Z S; Dube, M C; Dunjwa, M L; Fihla, N B; Fransman, M L; Frolick, C T; Gasebonwe, T M A; Gelderblom, J P; Gigaba, K M N; Gina, N; Godongwana, E; Gololo, C L; Gona, M F; Gumede, D M; Gungubele, M; Gxowa, N B; Hajaig, F; Hogan, B A; Huang, S-B; Jacobus, L; Jeffery, J H; Joemat-Pettersson, T M; Johnson, M; Kekana, C D; Kenye, T E; Khoarai, L P; Kholwane, S E; Khumalo, F E; Khunou, N P; Komphela, B M; Koornhof, G W; Kota-Fredericks, Z A; Kubayi, M T; Landers, L T; Lebenya-Ntanzi, S P; Lekgetho, G; Line, H; Lishivha, T E; Luyenge, Z; Maake, J J; Mabasa, X; Mabedla, N R; Mabuza, M C; Madlala, N M; Mafolo, M V; Magagula, V V; Magama, H T; Magau, K R; Magazi, M N; Magwanishe, G; Mahlangu-Nkabinde, G L; Makhuba, H N; Makhubela-Mashele, L S; Makhubele, Z S; Makwetla, S P; Malgas, H H; Maluleka, H P; Maluleke, J M; Manamela, K B; Manana, M C; Mandela, Z M D; Manganye, J; Manuel, T A; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Martins, B A D; Mashigo, R M; Mashishi, A C; Masilo, J M; Masutha, T M; Mataboge, D K; Mathebe, D H; Mathebe, P M; Mathibela, N F; Matshoba, J M; Maunye, M M; Mavunda, D W; Maziya, A M; Mbalula, F A; Mc Gluwa, J J; Mdakane, M R; Mdladlana, M M S; Mentor, M P; Mfeketo, N C; Mgabadeli, H C; Mjobo, L N; Mkhulusi, N N P; Mlambo, E M; Mlangeni, A; Mmusi, S G; Mnguni, P B; Mnisi, N A; Mohale, M C; Mokoena, A D; Molebatsi, M A; Molewa, B E E; Moloi-Moropa, J C; Morutoa, M R; Moss, L N; Motimele, M S; Motshekga, M A; Motshekga, M S; Mpontshane, A M; Msweli, H S; Mthethwa, E M; Mthethwa, E N; Mtshali, E; Mushwana, F F; Muthambi, A F; Nchabeleng, M E; Ndabandaba, L B G; Ndabeni, S T; Ndebele, J S; Ndlovu, V B; Nelson, W J; Newhoudt- Druchen, W S; Ngcengwane, N D; Ngcobo, B T; Ngcobo, E N N; Ngele, N J; Ngwenya, W; Ngwenya-Mabila, P C; Nhanha, M A; Nhlengethwa, D G; Njikelana, S J; Njobe, M A A; Nkwinti, G E; Nonkonyana, M; November, N T; Ntapane, S Z; Ntshiqela, P; Ntuli, Z C; Nxesi, T W; Nyalungu, R E; Nyanda, M F; Nyekemba, E; Oliphant, G G; Oosthuizen, G C; Pandor, G N M; Petersen- Maduna, P; Phaahla, M J; Phaliso, M N; Pilusa-Mosoane, M E; Mlohele, P; Radebe, B A; Radebe, G S; Radebe, J T; Ramatlhodi, N A; Rantsolase, M A; Saal, G; Scheemann, G D; Segale-Diswai, M J; Selau, G J; Sexwale, T M G; Shiceka, S; Sibanyoni, J B; Sibhida, N N; Sithole, K P; Sithole, S C N; Sizani, P S; Skosana, J J; Smith, V G; Snell, G T; Sogoni, E M; Sonjica, B P; Sonto, M R; Sosibo, J E; Sotyu, M M; Suka, L; Sulliman, E M; Sunduza, T B; Surty, M E; Thabethe, E; Thobejane, S G; Thomson, B; Tinto, B; Tsebe, S R; Tseke, G K; Tsenoli, S L; Tshivhase, T J; Tshwete, P; Tsotetsi, D R; Turok, B; Twala, N M; Vadi, I; Van der Merwe, S C; Van Rooyen, D D; Van Wyk, A; Xaba, P P; Yengeni, L E; Zikalala, C N Z; Zondi, K M; Zulu, B Z.

NOES - 61: Alberts, A D; Boinamo, G G; Bosman, L L; Coetzee, T W; Davidson, I O; De Freitas, M S F; De Lille, P; Doman, W P; Du Toit, N D; Dudley, C; Duncan, P C; Ellis, M J; Farrow, S B; Fritz, A T; George, D T; Greyling, L W; Groenewald, P J; James, W G; Kalyan, S V; Kloppers-Lourens, J C; Kohler-Barnard, D; Kopane, S P; Lamoela, H; Lee, T D; Lorimer, J R B; Lotriet, A; Louw, A; Lovemore, A T; Marais, E J; Masango, S J; Maynier, D J; Mazibuko, L D; Meshoe, K R J; Michael, N W A; Mokgalapa, S; More, E; Morgan, G R; Motau, S C; Mubu, K S; Mulder, C P; Ollis, I M; Rabie, P J; Rabotapi, M W; Robinson, D; Ross, D; Schmidt, H C; Selfe, J; Shinn, M R; Smiles, D C; Steyn, A; Steyn, A C; Swart, M; Swathe, M M; Trollip, R A P; Van Dalen, P; Van der Linde, J J; Van der Walt, D; Van Dyk, S M; Van Schalkwyk, H C; Waters, M; Wenger, M.

ABSTAIN - 1: MacKenzie, G D.

Vote accordingly agreed to.

For future voting, we will request members to still press even though you cannot see whether you have voted or not. You must just press because your names will reflect on the results.

Chairperson, it is not the TV screens that are looking blank. It is the faces of the ANC who don't understand the system.

Chairperson, can we have manual counting. [Laughter.]

If you are happy to stay here until late tonight, no problem!

Vote No 4 - Home Affairs - put.

Declarations of vote:

Chair, hon Minister and hon members, the ACDP is very concerned about the condition of migrant women and children, especially in the border areas of Musina.

Despite promises, government appears not to have put any budget or programme in place to cope with these people. Migrant orphans are sometimes put in children's homes, but many are kept separate from South African school-going children for months while waiting for the Zimbabwean authorities to confirm their status, which can take years. There are also reports that sexual attacks on migrant women are increasing in these areas.

As Zimbabwean passports cost the equivalent of about R2 000 a passport, this is outside the reach of any average person, and thousands of desperate people in Zimbabwe will continue to cross the border at illegal crossing points, and without papers.

This is a pressing problem and we urge government to address it in a compassionate manner. Local residents say that these people are treated in a way that one would not want to treat animals. These are people like us - our neighbours.

The ACDP urges the Minister to focus urgent attention on these matters. The ACDP will however be supporting this Budget Vote. Thank you.

Chairperson, while the ID supports this Vote, we would like to register our concern about the unanswered questions on the Who Am I Online forensic audit report as well as the smart card project.

The Department of Home Affairs received the forensic report of the investigation into corruption on these matters on 10 February 2009. South Africa wants to know what is going on, because there is ongoing confusion around these matters and it is our request that they are dealt with as a matter of urgency. Thank you.

Chairperson, I rise on behalf of the ANC to express confidence in the manner in which the Department of Home Affairs is addressing the challenges it faces. The issues raised with regard to the Who am I Online and the smart card project have been raised several times in our portfolio committee, and they are issues that the department is currently dealing with.

I also wish to express confidence in the manner in which the department is carrying out its mandate as the protector and as the department responsible for the integrity of citizenship in this country. The ANC supports Vote No 4. [Applause.]

Vote agreed to.

Vote No 5 - International Relations and Co-operation - put.

Declarations of vote:

Chairperson, even though the ACDP will be supporting Vote No 5, we nevertheless wish to appeal to the Minister of International Relations and Co-operation to speak out and condemn the unending kidnappings and brutal rape of women and children in East Congo. The reports that are coming from that region are heartbreaking and shocking and demand the urgent attention of different governments, including our very own.

We further call on the hon Minister to use all available channels to prevail upon the African Union to do more to protect the most vulnerable women and children in East Congo. The ACDP will support this Vote. Thank you.

Chairperson, the ANC supports this Vote. Thank you. [Applause.]

Vote agreed to.

Vote No 6 - Public Works - put and agreed to.

Declaration of vote:

Chairperson, thank you very much. We stand here as the ANC to support Vote No 6 and we are happy that Cope has realised that they have to be part of this support. The Department of Public Works has made tremendous progress in addressing the key priorities of government and much more needs to be done.

We are satisfied that the internal capacity has improved drastically in the department, and therefore the issues that were raised by the Auditor- General are being addressed as well. The implementation of our actual programme, the Expanded Public Works Programme, has all the ingredients for success and needs to be accelerated. Outstanding matters in the built environment also need serious engagement; this includes the registration and grading of contractors, specially emerging contractors; proper accreditation and experiential training for professionals, particularly in the engineering discipline; plus proper certification of building materials for good quality control. So the resources that have been allocated for public works will take us a long way in achieving all the issues that have been raised in the previous engagements. The ANC supports this Budget Vote, thank you very much.

Vote agreed to.

Vote No 7 - Women, Children and People with Disabilities - put.

Declarations of vote:

Chair, the DA cannot support this Budget Vote as we believe it's hopelessly underfunded for the enormous task of providing a special focus on the needs of vulnerable groups such as women, children and persons with disabilities.

In creating this Ministry, the size of the government has been increased but it is not increasing the level of service to those who most desperately needs it. The programmes for the vulnerable groups have been allocated a mere R7,1 million respectively, which constitutes 0,01% of the country's Budget. Persons with disabilities continue to be marginalised and reduced to the level of second-class citizens.

Our Constitution guarantees equal rights and opportunities for all people including those living with disabilities. To level the playing field special attention and funding are needed. The funds allocated to creating a new Ministry with all the trappings, could be allocated more successfully to the Department of Social Development, which actually provides the dedicated services needed. There is no need for duplication; expenditure needs to be efficient, effective and focused.

The creation of this Ministry was meant to signal a decisive change in the status of these vulnerable groups, but I fear it was simply a matter of expediency and window-dressing.

I call upon government for a change of heart. You need to put your money where your mouth is. The DA objects to this Budget Vote.

Chairperson, Cope opposes the Vote for Women, Children and People with Disabilities. We do so with a very heavy heart as we believe very strongly that this department needs all the support it can get to advance the lot of women, children and people with disabilities. Unfortunately, as everyone can see, this is not the case, if anything, the advent of this department has set back the strides which we were making in respect of gender parity and women issues.

This department is all cosmetic; it does not answer the needs of women, children and people with disabilities. Because we stand for the advancement of women, children and people with disabilities, we know that this department will be more of an impediment rather than providing assistance. We will not support this Vote for as long as it remains constituted the way it is. [Interjections.]

Let me finish. Irrespective of the chicken with or without a head, according to the Chief Whip of the Majority Party, Cope will not support this Budget Vote. [Applause.]

Thank you, Chair. We note the priorities outlined by the department in relation to improved performance monitoring and evaluation; improved access to rights and developmental opportunities for women, children, people with disabilities; and the department's focus on the protection of the rights of persons infected and affected by HIV/AIDS.

It is not clear, however, how existing priorities are specifically aimed at supporting and protecting family life. In the Department's Mandate Implementation Improvement Plan, the first point the department makes is that - Family life is critical for delivery on the rights of women, children and persons with disabilities. Strengthening your family structures is therefore an important element of successful delivery on the rights of persons in these vulnerable groups.

The ACDP believes that the people of South Africa would like to see more being done to prioritise this important aspect. There are approximately 18,3 million children living in South Africa; the allocated budget for the children's programme amounts to an expenditure of R2,65c per child in South Africa. This makes it an enormous challenge. Also, many doubt that figure and say it is much lower.

R7,1 million has also been allocated to meet the challenge of existing disability targets as well as for finalising the draft national disability policy.

The 2070 community survey indicates there are an estimated 1,9 million people living with a disability in South Africa; this constitutes approximately 4% of the total population - another enormous challenge.

In June 2009, the Minister referred to an immediate deliverable of the department being the establishment of the fund for women's empowerment, which is aimed at enabling them to start their own businesses and assisting NGOs in civil society in the undertaking of women's empowerment programmes.

The ACDP would like to know if this fund has, in fact, been established and what financial resources have or will be dedicated to it. Taking into account the limited financial support for the human resources capacity of the new department and the enormous scope of the mandate ... [Time expired.]

Thank you, Chair. The ANC supports Vote No 7. However, as the ANC we declare that we are dissatisfied with the limited budgetary allocation to the Department of Women, Children and Persons living with Disability, as it results in limitations on the scope of programmes of the department. Notwithstanding these concerns, we acknowledged that this is not enough reason not to support the Budget Vote.

We also note that the department is new and requires significant support and increased resources for it to progress and deliver on its mandate. We, therefore, as the ANC support Vote No 7.

Division demanded.

The House divided:

AYES - 225: Abram, S; Adams, P E; Alberts, A D; Baloyi, M R; Bam- Mugwanya, V; Bhengu, N R; Bhengu, P; Bikani, F C; Bogopane-Zulu, H I; Booi, M S; Borman, G M; Boshigo, D F; Botha, Y R; Burgess, C V; Buthelezi, M G; Carrim, Y I; Cebekhulu, R N; Chauke, H P; Chikunga, L S; Chohan, F I; Coleman, E M; Cronin, J P; Cwele, S C; De Lille, P; Diale, L N; Dikgacwi, M M; Dlakude , D E; Dlamini, B O; Dlamini-Zuma, N C; Dlodlo, A; Doidge, G Q M; Dubazana, Z S; Dube, M C; Dudley, C; Dunjwa, M L; Fihla, N B; Fransman, M L; Frolick, C T; Fubbs, J L; Gasebonwe, T M A; Gelderblom, J P; Gigaba, K M N; Gina, N; Godongwana, E; Gololo, C L; Gona, M F; Groenewald, P J; Gumede, D M; Gungubele, M; Gxowa, N B; Hajaig, F; Hogan, B A; Hoosen, M H; Huang, S-B; Jacobus, L; Jeffery, J H; Joemat-Pettersson, T M; Johnson, M; Kekana, C D; Kenye, T E; Khoarai, L P; Kholwane, S E; Khumalo, F E; Khunou, N P; Komphela, B M; Koornhof, G W; Kota-Fredericks, Z A; Kubayi, M T; Landers, L T; Lebenya-Ntanzi, S P; Lekgetho, G; Line, H; Lishivha, T E; Luyenge, Z; Maake, J J; Mabasa, X; Mabedla, N R; Mabuza, M C; Madlala, N M; Mafolo, M V; Magagula, V V; Magama, H T; Magau, K R; Magazi, M N; Magwanishe, G; Mahlangu-Nkabinde, G L; Makhuba, H N; Makhubela-Mashele, L S; Makhubele, Z S; Makwetla, S P; Malgas, H H; Maluleka, H P; Maluleke, J M; Manamela, K B; Manana, M C; Mandela, Z M D; Manganye, J; Manuel, T A; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Martins, B A D; Mashigo, R M; Mashishi, A C; Masilo, J M; Masutha, T M; Mataboge, D K; Mathebe, D H; Mathebe, P M; Mathibela, N F; Matshoba, J M; Maunye, M M; Mavunda, D W; Maziya, A M; Mbalula, F A; Mc Gluwa, J J; Mdakane, M R; Mdladlana, M M S; Mentor, M P; Meshoe, K R J; Mfeketo, N C; Mgabadeli, H C; Mjobo, L N; Mkhulusi, N N P; Mlambo, E M; Mlangeni, A; Mmusi, S G; Mnisi, N A; Mohale, M C; Mokoena, A D; Molebatsi, M A; Molewa, B E E; Moloi-Moropa, J C; Morutoa, M R; Moss, L N; Motimele, M S; Motshekga, M A; Motshekga, M S; Mpontshane, A M; Msweli, H S; Mthethwa, E M; Mthethwa, E N; Mtshali, E; Mulder, C P; Mushwana, F F; Muthambi, A F; Nchabeleng, M E; Ndabandaba, L B G; Ndabeni, S T; Ndebele, J S; Ndlovu, V B; Nel, A C; Nelson, W J; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngcengwane, N D; Ngcobo, B T; Ngcobo, E N N; Ngele, N J; Ngwenya, W; Ngwenya-Mabila, P C; Nhlengethwa, D G; Njikelana, S J; Nkwinti, G E; Nonkonyana, M; November, N T; Ntapane, S Z; Ntuli, Z C; Nxesi, T W; Nyalungu, R E; Nyanda, M F; Nyekemba, E; Oliphant, G G; Oosthuizen, G C; Pandor, G N M; Petersen-Maduna, P; Phaahla, M J; Phaliso, M N; Pilusa-Mosoane, M E; Radebe, B A; Radebe, G S; Radebe, J T; Ramatlhodi, N A; Rantsolase, M A; Saal, G; Scheemann, G D; Segale-Diswai, M J; Selau, G J; Sexwale, T M G; Shiceka, S; Sibanyoni, J B; Sibhida, N N; Sisulu, M V; Sithole, K P; Sithole, S C N; Sizani, P S; Skosana, J J; Smith, V G; Snell, G T; Sogoni, E M; Sonjica, B P; Sonto, M R; Sosibo, J E; Sotyu, M M; Suka, L; Sulliman, E M; Sunduza, T B; Surty, M E; Thabethe, E; Thobejane, S G; Thomson, B; Tinto, B; Tsebe, S R; Tseke, G K; Tsenoli, S L; Tshivhase, T J; Tshwete, P; Tsotetsi, D R; Turok, B; Twala, N M; Vadi, I; Van der Merwe, S C; Van Rooyen, D D; Van Wyk, A; Xaba, P P; Yengeni, L E; Zondi, K M; Zulu, B Z.

NOES - 62: Boinamo, G G; Bosman, L L; Coetzee, T W; Davidson, I O; De Freitas, M S F; Doman, W P; Du Toit, N D; Duncan, P C; Ellis, M J; Farrow, S B; Fritz, A T; George, D T; James, W G; Kalyan, S V; Kloppers- Lourens, J C; Kohler-Barnard, D; Kopane, S P; Lamoela, H; Lee, T D; Lorimer, J R B; Lotriet, A; Louw, A; Lovemore, A T; MacKenzie, G D; Marais, E J; Marais, S J F; Masango, S J; Maynier, D J; Mazibuko, L D; Michael, N W A; Mnguni, P B; Mokgalapa, S; More, E; Morgan, G R; Motau, S C; Mubu, K S; Nhanha, M A; Njobe, M A A; Ntshiqela, P; Ollis, I M; Mbhele, P; Rabie, P J; Rabotapi, M W; Robinson, D; Ross, D; Schmidt, H C; Selfe, J; Shinn, M R; Smiles, D C; Steyn, A; Steyn, A C; Swart, M; Swathe, M M; Trollip, R A P; Van Dalen, P; Van der Linde, J J; Van der Walt, D; Van Dyk, S M; Van Schalkwyk, H C; Waters, M; Wenger, M; Zikalala, C N Z.

Vote accordingly agreed to.

Vote No 8 - Government Communication and Information System - put and agreed to.

Vote No 9 - National Treasury - put and agreed to.

Vote No 10 - Public Enterprises - put.

Declarations of vote:

Voorsitter, die DA is bly dat die begroting van die Departement van Openbare Ondernemings, ten opsigte van oordragte na openbare ondernemings, afgeneem het vanaf R2 miljard verlede jaar, na net R138 miljoen vanjaar.

Die DA is egter van mening dat te veel geld na openbare ondernemings oorgedra word. Baie van die openbare ondernemings soos SAL, Denel en Eskom kan nie finansieel van die grond af kom nie, en daarom het daar 'n spreekwoord onstaan wat na openbare ondernemings as "bakhandstaan ondernemings" verwys, omdat hulle van die belastingbetaler afhanklik is vir finansile oorlewing.

Een van die groot redes vir hierdie swak prestasie is, eerstens, omdat die Departement van Openbare Ondernemings nie daarin slaag om die prestasies van openbare ondernemings behoorlik te monitor nie. Die tweede rede vir hierdie swak prestasie is omdat die departement nie daarin slaag om die staatsaandeelhouer bestuursfunksie suksesvol toe te pas nie. Dit plaas geweldige druk op die belastingbetaler.

Die DA s al lankal dat sekere openbare ondernemings soos SAL geprivatiseer behoort te word om hulle ekonomies onafhanklik te maak. Minister Manuel, sekere openbare ondernemings soos Denel, wat reeds bankrot is, behoort gelikwideer te word. Ander openbare ondernemings soos, onder andere, die South African Forestry Company Ltd, Safcol, wat selfstandig kan bestaan, behoort verkoop te word.

Dit is onaanvaarbaar dat die departement nou die belastingbetaler gebruik om in te staan vir 'n funksie waarin hy faal, en dit is om die ekonomie deur openbare ondernemings te probeer bestuur. Daarom sal die DA teen hierdie begrotingspos stem. Dankie. (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)

[Dr S M VAN DYK: Chairperson, the DA is glad that the budget of the Department of Public Enterprises, in respect of transfers to public enterprises, decreased from R2 billion last year to a mere R138 million this year.

However, the DA is of the opinion that too much money is being transferred to public enterprises. Many of the public enterprises such as SAA, Denel and Eskom cannot get off the ground financially and, therefore, a saying has developed referring to public enterprises as "bakhandstaan ondernemings", as they are dependent on the taxpayer for financial survival.

One of the main reasons for this poor performance is, firstly, that the Department of Public Enterprises is unable to monitor the performance of public enterprises adequately. Secondly, this poor performance is also due to the department's failure to implement the state-owned management function successfully. This places enormous pressure on the taxpayer.

The DA has been saying for a long time that certain public enterprises, such as SAA, ought to be privatised in order to make them economically independent. Minister Manuel, certain public enterprises such as Denel, who is already bankrupt, ought to be liquidated. Other public enterprises such as the South African Forestry Company Ltd, Safcol, that can exist independently, ought to be sold.

It is unacceptable that the department now makes use of the taxpayer to take responsibility for a function in which he has failed, namely trying to manage the economy through public enterprises. Hence, the DA will not support this Budget Vote. Thank you.]

Hon Chairperson, I have decided to resign and go back to my backbench because the Chief Whip of the Majority Party has shot down my ambition of being the head of this party one day! [Laughter.] Besides, we are headless chickens. So, in protest, I have returned to my seat.

Through state-owned enterprises, SOEs, the Department of Public Enterprises is plagued by issues of mismanagement, negligence, corruption and ignorance, to name only a few. The Minister is trying to smooth-talk issues that are on the table when she should be taking the bull by the horns in addressing these pressing issues that continue to threaten the survival of our SOEs.

Our leaders, in essence, and unintentionally at times, advocate stealing from the poor to give big packages to elite officials at the expense of poor workers. This government shows it is soft on mismanagement and below- par performance by giving elite officials big packages for not performing or for leading SOEs to the brink of bankruptcy.

Every one of us should remember that the road to hell is paved with good intentions. South Africans are sick and tired of excuses for why SOEs are not performing and why money is just being thrown at them as though there is plenty where it comes from. However, Cope will support this Vote. I thank you. [Applause.]

Adv A de W ALBERTS: Mr Chair, we would like to focus specifically on Eskom in this regard.

Weens Eskom se gebrek aan beplanning; die verhoging wat toegestaan is voordat die gentegreerde energieplan gereed is; korrupsie en wanbestuur in Eskom; en die verraad van Suid-Afrikaners se verwagtinge vir energiesekuriteit, stem ons teen hierdie begrotingspos. Dankie. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[Owing to Eskom's lack of planning; the increase that was approved before the integrated energy plan was ready; corruption and mismanagement in Eskom; and the betrayal of South Africans' expectations for energy security, we do not support this Budget Vote.]

Hon Chairperson, the ANC supports the Budget Vote. Yesterday, the figures for the GDP for the quarter were released for the South African economy, and it stand at 4,6%. This surprised everybody. In fact, the Minister of Finance had projected this to be 2,7%.

This success is because of state-owned enterprises as the backbone of the economy. [Applause.] If they were not performing, we would not have realised the 4,6% growth, which is actually one of the highest for the quarter amongst the world's economies. [Applause.]

A few days ago, the International Monetary Fund, IMF, commended the South African government for having handled the world economic recession very well and having led South Africans unscathed out of recession. The SOEs were again central to that success - Eskom in particular. Transnet and SAA, which are responsible for the energy that is so necessary for growth as well as transportation of people and goods, were at the centre of this success that the IMF was praising South Africa and South Africans for.

These two indicators show that the Department of Public Enterprises and South Africa, as well as SOEs themselves, are on track and are doing well. I need to educate the opposition over and over again on three issues. You are not throwing money into SOEs when you do equity injection. When you own an asset, you have the responsibility and obligation to do equity injections into your own assets. The SOEs are assets owned by the South African public, and they are held in trust by the state. [Interjections.] [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Division demanded.

The House divided:

AYES - 222: Abram, S; Adams, P E; Baloyi, M R; Bam-Mugwanya, V; Bhengu, N R; Bhengu, P; Bikani, F C; Bogopane-Zulu, H I; Booi, M S; Borman, G M; Boshigo, D F; Botha, Y R; Burgess, C V; Buthelezi, M G; Carrim, Y I; Cebekhulu, R N; Chauke, H P; Chikunga, L S; Chohan, F I; Coleman, E M; Cronin, J P; Cwele, S C; De Lille, P; Diale, L N; Dlakude, D E; Dlamini, B O; Dlamini-Zuma, N C; Dlodlo, A; Doidge, G Q M; Dubazana, Z S; Dube, M C; Dudley, C; Dunjwa, M L; Fihla, N B; Fransman, M L; Frolick, C T; Fubbs, J L; Gasebonwe, T M A; Gelderblom, J P; Gigaba, K M N; Gina, N; Godongwana, E; Gololo, C L; Gona, M F; Gumede, D M; Gungubele, M; Gxowa, N B; Hajaig, F; Hogan, B A; Huang, S-B; Jacobus, L; Jeffery, J H; Joemat- Pettersson, T M; Johnson, M; Kekana, C D; Kenye, T E; Khoarai, L P; Kholwane, S E; Khumalo, F E; Khunou, N P; Komphela, B M; Koornhof, G W; Kota-Fredericks, Z A; Kubayi, M T; Landers, L T; Lebenya-Ntanzi, S P; Lekgetho, G; Line, H; Lishivha, T E; Luyenge, Z; Maake, J J; Mabasa, X; Mabedla, N R; Mabuza, M C; Madlala, N M; Mafolo, M V; Magagula, V V; Magama, H T; Magau, K R; Magazi, M N; Magwanishe, G; Mahlangu-Nkabinde, G L; Makhuba, H N; Makhubela-Mashele, L S; Makhubele, Z S; Makwetla, S P; Malgas, H H; Maluleka, H P; Maluleke, J M; Manamela, K B; Manana, M C; Mandela, Z M D; Manganye, J; Manuel, T A; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Martins, B A D; Mashigo, R M; Mashishi, A C; Masilo, J M; Masutha, T M; Mataboge, D K; Mathebe, D H; Mathebe, P M; Mathibela, N F; Matshoba, J M; Maunye, M M; Mavunda, D W; Maziya, A M; Mbalula, F A; Mdakane, M R; Mdladlana, M M S; Mentor, M P; Meshoe, K R J; Mfeketo, N C; Mgabadeli, H C; Mjobo, L N; Mkhulusi, N N P; Mlambo, E M; Mlangeni, A; Mmusi, S G; Mnisi, N A; Mohale, M C; Mokoena, A D; Molebatsi, M A; Molewa, B E E; Moloi-Moropa, J C; Morutoa, M R; Moss, L N; Motimele, M S; Motshekga, M A; Motshekga, M S; Mpontshane, A M; Mthethwa, E M; Mthethwa, E N; Mtshali, E; Mushwana, F F; Muthambi, A F; Nchabeleng, M E; Ndabandaba, L B G; Ndabeni, S T; Ndebele, J S; Ndlovu, V B; Nel, A C; Nelson, W J; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngcengwane, N D; Ngcobo, B T; Ngcobo, E N N; Ngele, N J; Ngwenya, W; Ngwenya-Mabila, P C; Nhanha, M A; Nhlengethwa, D G; Njikelana, S J; Njobe, M A A; Nkwinti, G E; Nonkonyana, M; November, N T; Ntapane, S Z; Ntshiqela, P; Ntuli, Z C; Nxesi, T W; Nyalungu, R E; Nyanda, M F; Nyekemba, E; Oliphant, G G; Oosthuizen, G C; Pandor, G N M; Petersen- Maduna, P; Phaahla, M J; Phaliso, M N; Pilusa-Mosoane, M E; Mbhele, P; Radebe, B A; Radebe, G S; Radebe, J T; Ramatlhodi, N A; Rantsolase, M A; Saal, G; Scheemann, G D; Segale-Diswai, M J; Selau, G J; Sexwale, T M G; Shiceka, S; Sibanyoni, J B; Sibhida, N N; Sisulu, M V; Sithole, K P; Sithole, S C N; Sizani, P S; Skosana, J J; Smith, V G; Snell, G T; Sonjica, B P; Sonto, M R; Sosibo, J E; Sotyu, M M; Suka, L; Sulliman, E M; Sunduza, T B; Surty, M E; Thabethe, E; Thobejane, S G; Thomson, B; Tinto, B; Tsebe, S R; Tseke, G K; Tsenoli, S L; Tshivhase, T J; Tshwete, P; Tsotetsi, D R; Turok, B; Twala, N M; Vadi, I; Van der Merwe, S C; Van Rooyen, D D; Van Wyk, A; Xaba, P P; Yengeni, L E; Zikalala, C N Z; Zondi, K M; Zulu, B Z.

NOES - 58: Alberts, A D; Boinamo, G G; Bosman, L L; Coetzee, T W; Davidson, I O; De Freitas, M S F; Doman, W P; Du Toit, N D; Duncan, P C; Ellis, M J; Farrow, S B; Fritz, A T; George, D T; Groenewald, P J; James, W G; Kalyan, S V; Kloppers-Lourens, J C; Kohler-Barnard, D; Kopane, S P; Lamoela, H; Lee, T D; Lorimer, J R B; Lotriet, A; Louw, A; Lovemore, A T; Marais, E J; Marais, S J F; Masango, S J; Maynier, D J; Mazibuko, L D; Michael, N W A; Mokgalapa, S; More, E; Morgan, G R; Motau, S C; Mubu, K S; Mulder, C P; Ollis, I M; Rabie, P J; Rabotapi, M W; Robinson, D; Ross, D; Schmidt, H C; Selfe, J; Shinn, M R; Smiles, D C; Steyn, A; Steyn, A C; Swart, M; Swathe, M M; Trollip, R A P; Van Dalen, P; Van der Linde, J J; Van der Walt, D; Van Dyk, S M; Van Schalkwyk, H C; Waters, M; Wenger, M.

Vote accordingly agreed to.

Vote No 11 - Public Service and Administration - put. Declarations of vote:

Chairperson, the Public Service Commission, a Chapter 10 institution, has always had its own budget. However, this year, without any reason, its budget has been removed and it now falls directly under the department, as if it were one of its own programmes. The DA believes that this was a step in the wrong direction and that it could compromise the independence of the Public Service Commission.

This proud institution has a record of executing its responsibilities without fear or favour. This must be protected at all costs.

I must add that this morning, at a portfolio committee meeting, the Minister gave the assurance that this was only an interim arrangement, which will be revisited in the Medium-Term Budget in October.

At this stage, all I can say to the Minister is that seeing is believing. Therefore, at this stage, the DA cannot support the Budget Vote. I thank you. [Applause.]

Chairperson, in support of the Budget Vote, the ANC will continue emphasising the significance of the Public Service Commission's existence as an important organ of oversight. The Public Service Commission's Vote allocation was not correct in the past arrangement and is still not correct currently, so there is nothing new in this arrangement. This provides us with a good opportunity to correctly locate the Public Service Commission in a position that will assert its independency completely.

The process has already been started and will be concluded quite soon. The Minister, the presiding officers, and the committee, together with the Public Service Commission itself, have started the process of allocating this important organ to the correct structure. In the committee we have continued to engage objectively, constructively and openly on these matters.

Any other matter that comes before us will be confronted quite constructively. We therefore don't say that it was correct in the past or that it is correct now, but we are actually saying that this has provided an opportunity for us to deal with it correctly, and not for grandstanding politically. I thank you. [Applause.]

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance dissenting).

Vote No 12 - Statistics South Africa - put and agreed to.

Vote No 13 - Arts and Culture - put.

Declarations of vote:

Chairperson, although the DA supports the Arts and Culture budget, it is important that notice is taken of the following matters.

The first issue concerns the situation of South African artists. It is a major reason for concern that the transfers to the National Arts Council have been reduced by R15 million in 2010-11. However, what makes it even worse is the reason for the cut in the budget. This is because of the council's large accumulated surpluses, mainly due to unallocated grants over a number of years. This is totally unacceptable.

A number of performing arts are literally on the verge of closing down. Emergency steps have to be taken by the performers themselves to save their arts. This is why the National Arts Council has not been able to allocate the funds available for this purpose.

Secondly, the Investing in Culture programme is a reason for concern. This programme has the aim of providing empowerment opportunities for unemployed people. However, the reality is that the department is underspending on this programme. Surely, this is not on the interest of the people who have to benefit from this programme. Therefore, it should be a main priority with proper utilisation of the allocated funds.

The priority should not be international trips on which there seems to be overspending. It is clear that the department has a challenge in terms of financial planning. In this regard, it has to be stated that although the efforts in trying to root out corruption in the department are commendable, the department will have to ensure that the financial challenges are addressed and that the suspension of officials does not impact negatively on service delivery.

The recent court ruling on language legislation that has to be complied with within two years, does have specific implications for the department and specifically also for the budget. Again, the language programme has the smallest allocation, which is not sufficient. In the light of the language ruling, provision will have to be made to cater for this process. This is also a matter which will have to be taken into account by different government departments in future, especially where there is direct service delivery to people. [Applause.]

Mulangadzulo, ANC i khou tikedza hoyu mugaganyagwama nga mbilu yayo yo?he. Musi ro thetshelesa vha ?ihoro ?ikangi vha tshi khou ?i ambela zwenezwo zwidayonyana zwavho zwi sa ri tshithu, ri tou zwi ?ivha zwauri pfunzo yo rangaho phan?a vhana vhashu vha fhano Afurika Tshipembe, ndi ya uri hu vhe na mvelaphan?a kha vhathu vhashu vha mahayani, zwihulwanesa ro sedza vhushai havho na zwibveledzwa zwavho.

Vha ?ihoro ?a DA vha khou sokou ?i ambela ngeno vha tshi tou zwi ?ivha zwavhu?i zwauri zwithu zwo?he zwo vha zwi zwan?ani zwavho. Ndi lwa u tou thoma vhutshiloni ha vharema vha tshi vhonala-vho vha tshi vho kona u ?iitela zwi?we zwithu. Hezwo zwithu zwi pfi mvelaphan?a ngauri u rangani zwo vha zwi siho. Ho vha hu tshi sedzwa vhone vhe vho?he nahone vha tshi tou nga ndi vhone vhathu vhe vho?he.

ANC na ri?e vha Muhasho wa Vhutsila na Mvelele, ri ri kha i khidzhane i tshi ya phan?a. Mvelaphan?a i khou ?o?ea vhathuni vha hashu u itela uri vha kone-vho u vha na zwine vha vhan?a. Musi vhaendelamashango vha tshi ?uwa, vha ?uwa vho kuku?a zwithu zwo?he vha tshi tou ?iphina. Zwi ?i nga na henei bola ine ya khou ?a, vha ?o vha vha tshi khou mvumvusiwa nga vhathu vha hashu lwa u tou thoma, ngauri hezwo zwithu zwo vha zwi si ho. Zwino ri khou pfa ri tshi ?ihudza vhukuma. ANC i khou tikedza hoyu mugaganyagwama nga nungo dzayo dzo?he. [U vhanda zwan?a.] (Translation of Tshiven?a speech follows.)

[Mrs T J TSHIVHASE: Mr Speaker, the ANC supports this Budget Vote wholeheartedly. Listening to the opposition party speaking about their useless bylaws, we know that the education that our children in South Africa are receiving is meant for the development of our rural communities, especially when we look at their poverty and their resources.

The DA is just talking knowing very well that everything was in their hands. It is for the first time in the history of black people that they are seen doing certain things by themselves. This is what is called development because it wasn't there before. The whole focus used to be on them alone as if they were the only people.

The ANC and us, the Department of Arts and Culture, say let us keep doing what we are doing. Development is needed in our communities to ensure that they can also have something for themselves. When tourists leave, they leave with many things and are happy. Even with the soccer tournament that is to be hosted, they will be entertained by our people for the first time, which has never happened before. We feel so proud now. The ANC fully supports this Budget Vote. [Applause.]]

Vote agreed to.

Vote No 14 - Basic Education - put.

Declarations of vote:

Chairperson, the DA does not support the Budget Vote for the following reasons. Firstly, not enough emphasis has been placed on learners with special educational needs or the in-service training of and assistance to teachers to provide for mother tongue education for learners from Grade R to 6. Secondly, not enough emphasis has been placed on the provision of a library and librarian for each school in our country. The amount required is R2,2 billion per year for a period of 10 years.

Thirdly, the DA is also concerned about the money that was allocated to the department for workbooks for Grades R to 6 when the adjustment appropriation was conducted in October 2009.

These books will no longer be published by publishing companies. The tender was cancelled in December 2009. It was announced at the recent portfolio committee meeting that these books are currently being developed by the department. How will the approved sum of R254 million be spent? Will it be more of a cost-saving exercise? Will it be done according to regional specifications? Will there be a surplus? We need answers.

Fourthly, money spent on teachers' salaries is wasted when those teachers do not attend schools due to union activities without the department taking action.

Finally, given the dismal state of education in our country, it is certain that there is not enough money in this budget for basic education; more money is required to meet the many neglected needs. The DA provided for these needs in its alternative budget by adding an additional R1,4 billion to the amount appropriated. It is possible to put more money in education. If government's overall spending programme was more efficient ... [Time expired.]

Chairperson, I assume that when we speak in this House, in particular, that everyone here is motivated by the desire to realise a successful and equitable education system. The portfolio committee is currently engaged in public hearings. And Chairperson, we have engaged South Africans from all walks of life, be it teachers, principals, experts or ordinary parents and learners.

Two things have become quite clear in our engagements. Firstly, everybody acknowledges that transformation of the education system is a process and not an event.

Secondly, teachers are central to the success of the education system. The clarion call to us as public representatives is to do everything we can to support these professionals when they go about their normal duties and their noble task. They are teachers but they are also social workers, psychologists and caregivers. The burden on teachers is incredible.

Therefore, as we are in this House, to sit here and say that we will vote against this budget, is really a disgrace. And I hope that the DA will not be going out to our schools and lying to our teachers that they support them because the truth of the matter is that they are voting against this budget.

The DA is saying government must not spend R80 million on new equipment and workshops for our technical schools to help teachers to teach the subjects that they offer. We must not spend R750 million on workbooks for the poorest of our schools. There is no person with integrity that cannot support this Budget Vote, and we do! Thank you. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

I now call for the vote. Those in favour say "Aye".

Aye!

Are there any objections? No objections; therefore the vote is agreed to. [Interjections.]

I did not hear the Noes.

Mr Chairman, we said it very loudly; very loudly indeed. I now have to be little bit concerned about your hearing, sir. [Laughter.]

Are you raising an objection?

Mr Chairman, I want to do far more than that once you put it to the vote because certainly what the hon Chohan has said cannot go unquestioned. [Interjections.]

I did not understand you. Should I put the question now?

Mr Chairman, we would be remarkably glad and obliged to you, sir, if you would put the question now.

Ok, thank you very much. It is very clear now. Those in favour will say "Aye".

Aye!

I think the Ayes have it.

Mr Chairman, before you don't hear me, sir, I want to say very loudly indeed, the DA calls for a division.

Division demanded.

The House divided:

AYES - 219: Abram, S; Adams, P E; Baloyi, M R; Bam-Mugwanya, V; Bhengu, N R; Bhengu, P; Bikani, F C; Bogopane-Zulu, H I; Booi, M S; Borman, G M; Boshigo, D F; Botha, Y R; Burgess, C V; Buthelezi, M G; Carrim, Y I; Cebekhulu, R N; Chauke, H P; Chikunga, L S; Chohan, F I; Coleman, E M; Cronin, J P; Cwele, S C; De Lille, P; Diale, L N; Dikgacwi, M M; Dlakude , D E; Dlamini, B O; Dlamini-Zuma, N C; Dlodlo, A; Doidge, G Q M; Dubazana, Z S; Dube, M C; Dudley, C; Dunjwa, M L; Fihla, N B; Fransman, M L; Frolick, C T; Gasebonwe, T M A; Gelderblom, J P; Gigaba, K M N; Gina, N; Godongwana, E; Gololo, C L; Gona, M F; Gumede, D M; Gungubele, M; Gxowa, N B; Hajaig, F; Hogan, B A; Hoosen, M H; Huang, S-B; Jacobus, L; Jeffery, J H; Joemat-Pettersson, T M; Johnson, M; Kekana, C D; Kenye, T E; Khoarai, L P; Kholwane, S E; Khumalo, F E; Khunou, N P; Komphela, B M; Koornhof, G W; Kota-Fredericks, Z A; Kubayi, M T; Landers, L T; Lebenya- Ntanzi, S P; Lekgetho, G; Line, H; Lishivha, T E; Luyenge, Z; Maake, J J; Mabasa, X; Mabedla, N R; Mabuza, M C; Madlala, N M; Mafolo, M V; Magagula, V V; Magama, H T; Magau, K R; Magazi, M N; Magwanishe, G; Mahlangu-Nkabinde, G L; Makhuba, H N; Makhubela-Mashele, L S; Makhubele, Z S; Makwetla, S P; Malgas, H H; Maluleka, H P; Maluleke, J M; Manamela, K B; Manana, M C; Manganye, J; Manuel , T A; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Martins, B A D; Mashigo, R M; Mashishi, A C; Masilo, J M; Masutha, T M; Mataboge, D K; Mathebe, D H; Mathebe, P M; Mathibela, N F; Matshoba, J M; Maunye, M M; Mavunda, D W; Maziya, A M; Mbalula, F A; Mc Gluwa, J J; Mdakane, M R; Mdladlana, M M S; Mentor, M P; Meshoe, K R J; Mfeketo, N C; Mgabadeli, H C; Mjobo, L N; Mkhulusi, N N P; Mlambo, E M; Mlangeni, A; Mmusi, S G; Mnisi, N A; Mohale, M C; Mokoena, A D; Molebatsi, M A; Molewa, B E E; Moloi-Moropa, J C; Morutoa, M R; Moss, L N; Motimele, M S; Motshekga, M A; Motshekga, M S; Mpontshane, A M; Msweli, H S; Mthethwa, E M; Mthethwa, E N; Mtshali, E; Mushwana, F F; Muthambi, A F; Nchabeleng, M E; Ndabandaba, L B G; Ndabeni, S T; Ndebele, J S; Ndlovu, V B; Nel, A C; Nelson, W J; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngcengwane, N D; Ngcobo, B T; Ngcobo, E N N; Ngele, N J; Ngwenya, W; Ngwenya-Mabila, P C; Nhlengethwa, D G; Njobe, M A A; Nkwinti, G E; November, N T; Ntapane, S Z; Ntshiqela, P; Ntuli, Z C; Nxesi, T W; Nyalungu, R E; Nyanda, M F; Nyekemba, E; Oliphant, G G; Oosthuizen, G C; Pandor, G N M; Petersen-Maduna, P; Phaahla, M J; Phaliso, M N; Pilusa-Mosoane, M E; Radebe, B A; Radebe, G S; Radebe, J T; Ramatlhodi, N A; Rantsolase, M A; Saal, G; Scheemann, G D; Segale-Diswai, M J; Selau, G J; Shiceka, S; Sibanyoni, J B; Sibhida, N N; Sisulu, M V; Sithole, K P; Sithole, S C N; Sizani, P S; Skosana, J J; Smith, V G; Snell, G T; Sogoni, E M; Sonjica, B P; Sonto, M R; Sosibo, J E; Sotyu, M M; Suka, L; Sulliman, E M; Sunduza, T B; Surty, M E; Thabethe, E; Thobejane, S G; Thomson, B; Tinto, B; Tsebe, S R; Tseke, G K; Tsenoli, S L; Tshwete, P; Tsotetsi, D R; Turok, B; Twala, N M; Vadi, I; Van der Merwe, S C; Van Rooyen, D D; Van Wyk, A; Xaba, P P; Yengeni, L E; Zikalala, C N Z; Zondi, K M; Zulu, B Z.

NOES - 56: Alberts, A D; Boinamo, G G; Bosman, L L; Coetzee, T W; Davidson, I O; De Freitas, M S F; Doman, W P; Du Toit, N D; Duncan, P C; Ellis, M J; Farrow, S B; George, D T; Groenewald, P J; James, W G; Kalyan, S V; Kloppers-Lourens, J C; Kohler-Barnard, D; Kopane, S P; Lamoela, H; Lee, T D; Lorimer, J R B; Lotriet, A; Louw, A; Lovemore, A T; Marais, E J; Marais, S J F; Masango, S J; Maynier, D J; Mazibuko, L D; Michael, N W A; Mokgalapa, S; More, E; Motau, S C; Mubu, K S; Mulder, C P; Ollis, I M; Rabie, P J; Rabotapi, M W; Robinson, D; Ross, D; Schmidt, H C; Selfe, J; Shinn, M R; Smiles, D C; Steyn, A; Steyn, A C; Swart, M; Swathe, M M; Trollip, R A P; Van Dalen, P; Van der Linde, J J; Van der Walt, D; Van Dyk, S M; Van Schalkwyk, H C; Waters, M; Wenger, M.

Vote accordingly agreed to.

Vote No 15 - Health - put.

Declarations of vote:

Chairperson, the DA has stated on previous occasions that we would give the Minister all our support in turning the Department of Health around. While the Minister has been making the right noises, it has failed to translate into any action.

As things are standing now, we fear they are getting worse. The nine provincial departments have overspent by an astonishing R12 billion this year, which is up from the past financial year. This is due to the chronic underfunding by the national government as well as a gross underestimation of actual health costs. Another direct consequence of failed ANC policy is that of human resources. In 1994 and 1995 the ANC closed down many nursing colleges and thus reduced the number of nurses we were producing. It also continued to refuse the private sector permission to train doctors. The consequence of that is that we currently have a shortfall of 40 000 nurses and 12 500 doctors in the public sector. The department still has no comprehensive human resources plan.

Coupled with the chronic lack of staff and the ever-increasing burden of disease, health standards are declining in our public hospitals and nothing brings this home more than the deaths of newborn babies that have shocked the country. How can 180 babies die in one hospital in five months without the alarm bells ringing?

The fact that it took 180 babies to die before an investigation was initiated shows how cheap life has become under the ANC government. We are only one of 12 countries in the world where the child mortality rate is actually increasing.

If we had had the Office of Standards Compliance fully operational as is stipulated in the National Health Act of 2003, which is seven years old now, many of those many deaths would have been averted. Under the current circumstances the DA cannot possible support the Health Budget Vote. I thank you. [Applause.]

Thanks, Deputy Speaker, concerns have been raised with regard to the readiness of the country's health sector to meet the challenges arising from the coming Soccer World Cup. A surgeon at Groote Schuur Hospital in Cape Town recently made a comment on the fact that the hospital was not ready. He said that they were not able to treat all the patients over a weekend in the current situation. This is without the influx of spectators expected for the World Cup.

Currently, Groote Schuur Hospital has a shortage of surgeons and its resuscitation area is unable to cope with the current demand. Many may argue that this was just an isolated case, but Groote Schuur Hospital is one of the leading hospitals in the Western Cape and in South Africa. One can be assured that it would not be an isolated case.

According to reports, a National Health Insurance system in South Africa would cost something in the area of R200 billion annually. That would roughly be equal to building a new stadium every week for 52 weeks a year forever. As much as national health insurance is a noble idea, its implementation is where the problem lies.

To give this kind of responsibility to a department that overspent its budget by R12 billion at a provincial level is irresponsible or risky. However, the manner in which the Minister is going about addressing the health concerns of the nation deserves support. Cope supports the Vote. I thank you.

Deputy Speaker, the words of this doctor tell it like it is:

Instead of the hopeful anticipation usually associated with the announcement of the annual Budget Speech, it is now met with anger. If so much money has been allocated to HIV, why do our pharmacies constantly run out of lifesaving ARVs? Why are HIV babies going hungry because there is no baby formula in the clinics?

I would like the powers that be to justify why my hypertensive-diabetic patients have to go for months without HCTZ and aspirin. How can I be expected to offer emergency procedures like caesarean sections when the autoclave machine hasn't worked for months?

Of course these are just isolated incidents, but these and many more horror stories are becoming the norm in hospitals around the country.

The system is neither friendly to the people it is meant to serve nor to the health care workers operating it. It serves the larger part of the population, but is allocated a chunk of the budget that is inadequate for what it is attempting to achieve. The feeling amongst most healthcare workers is that we are being expected to perform miracles on scraps. We have a mammoth task to fight HIV and TB; as if that wasn't enough we have the growing battle of social issues like poverty, unemployment and alcohol abuse, which all come with their complications.

The ever-growing queues in our clinics and hospitals are a testament of how much sickness and disease are in our communities. Most doctors in the state sector do not mind the increased workload and have come to accept it as a normal part of their job. What they do mind is being expected to do the job under the most difficult conditions without being given proper tools.

The Department of Health dragged the wage negotiations on for months but failed to tackle core issues. They still cannot justify the lack in supply of standard equipment like latex gloves and syringes.

In view of these considerable concerns including the shocking mortality rate of women and children, especially babies, and government's continued commitment to aborting babies indiscriminately, the ACDP will not support this Budget Vote. I thank you.

Deputy Speaker, the hon member of Cope mentioned the World Cup and I would like to use this opportunity to indicate that we, as South Africans, are very excited and, without a doubt, we are looking forward to it. The ANC wishes Bafana Bafana the very best and assure them of our support as they make us all proud of being South Africans.

Since we had the ability to organise and manage a successful World Cup, it will not be impossible for us to reverse the decades of oppression. The approach we are adopting now of establishing key deliverables in the Department of Health, would make it easier for us to monitor progress.

The Department of Health's 10-point plan includes, among other things, providing strategic leadership and the creation of a social compact for health outcomes; implementation of a National Health Insurance plan; improving quality of health services; human resources management; revitalisation of physical infrastructure and improving management; accelerated implementation of the HIV/Aids plan; and reduction of mortality due to co-infection.

South Africa enjoys a much bigger Health Budget than most developing countries, but we are faced with an increasing burden of diseases. That is a fact - and HIV/Aids is our greater challenge.

The majority of our people are still living in poverty. The policy on HIV treatment has been revised. They now provide ARV treatment to people with a CD4 count of less than 350, whereas previously it had to be less than 200.

For increased access to health care, a bold approach is needed. We need a more holistic approach, hence the need for National Health Insurance. The status quo cannot remain where 86% of our people do not have the privilege of medical aid. The ANC supports this Budget Vote. [Applause.]

Division demanded.

The House divided:

AYES - 217: Abram, S; Adams, P E; Baloyi, M R; Bam-Mugwanya, V; Bapela, K O; Bhengu , N R; Bhengu, P; Bikani, F C; Bogopane-Zulu, H I; Booi, M S; Borman, G M; Boshigo, D F; Botha, Y R; Burgess, C V; Buthelezi, M G; Carrim, Y I; Cebekhulu, R N; Chauke, H P; Chikunga, L S; Chohan, F I; Coleman, E M; Cronin, J P; Cwele, S C; De Lille, P; Diale, L N; Dikgacwi, M M; Dlakude , D E; Dlamini, B O; Dlamini-Zuma, N C; Dlodlo, A; Doidge, G Q M; Dubazana, Z S; Dube, M C; Dunjwa, M L; Fihla, N B; Fransman, M L; Frolick, C T; Gasebonwe, T M A; Gelderblom, J P; Gigaba, K M N; Gina, N; Godongwana, E; Gololo, C L; Gona, M F; Greyling, L W; Gumede, D M; Gxowa, N B; Hajaig, F; Hogan, B A; Hoosen, M H; Huang, S-B; Jacobus, L; Jeffery, J H; Joemat-Pettersson, T M; Johnson, M; Kekana, C D; Kenye, T E; Khoarai, L P; Kholwane, S E; Khumalo, F E; Khunou, N P; Koornhof, G W; Kota-Fredericks, Z A; Kubayi, M T; Landers, L T; Lebenya-Ntanzi, S P; Lekgetho, G; Line, H; Lishivha, T E; Luyenge, Z; Maake, J J; Mabasa, X; Mabedla, N R; Mabuza, M C; Madlala, N M; Mafolo, M V; Magagula, V V; Magama, H T; Magau, K R; Magazi, M N; Magwanishe, G; Mahlangu-Nkabinde, G L; Makhubela-Mashele, L S; Makhubele, Z S; Makwetla, S P; Malgas, H H; Maluleka, H P; Maluleke, J M; Manamela, K B; Manana, M C; Mandela, Z M D; Manganye, J; Manuel, T A; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Martins, B A D; Mashigo, R M; Mashishi, A C; Masilo, J M; Masutha, T M; Mataboge, D K; Mathebe, D H; Mathebe, P M; Mathibela, N F; Matshoba, J M; Maunye, M M; Mavunda, D W; Maziya, A M; Mbalula, F A; Mc Gluwa, J J; Mdakane, M R; Mdladlana, M M S; Mentor, M P; Mgabadeli, H C; Mjobo, L N; Mkhulusi, N N P; Mlambo, E M; Mlangeni, A; Mmusi, S G; Mnisi, N A; Mohale, M C; Mokoena, A D; Molebatsi, M A; Molewa, B E E; Moloi-Moropa, J C; Morutoa, M R; Moss, L N; Motimele, M S; Motshekga, M A; Motshekga, M S; Mpontshane, A M; Msweli, H S; Mthethwa, E M; Mthethwa, E N; Mtshali, E; Mushwana, F F; Muthambi, A F; Nchabeleng, M E; Ndabandaba, L B G; Ndabeni, S T; Ndebele, J S; Ndlovu, V B; Nel, A C; Nelson, W J; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngcengwane, N D; Ngcobo, B T; Ngcobo, E N N; Ngele, N J; Ngwenya, W; Ngwenya-Mabila, P C; Nhanha, M A; Nhlengethwa, D G; Njobe, M A A; Nkwinti, G E; November, N T; Ntapane, S Z; Ntuli, Z C; Nyalungu, R E; Nyanda, M F; Nyekemba, E; Oliphant, G G; Oosthuizen, G C; Pandor, G N M; Petersen-Maduna, P; Phaahla, M J; Phaliso, M N; Pilusa-Mosoane, M E; Radebe, B A; Radebe, G S; Radebe, J T; Ramatlhodi, N A; Rantsolase, M A; Saal, G; Scheemann, G D; Segale-Diswai, M J; Selau, G J; Sexwale, T M G; Shiceka, S; Sibanyoni, J B; Sibhida, N N; Sisulu, M V; Sithole, K P; Sithole, S C N; Sizani, P S; Skosana, J J; Smith, V G; Snell, G T; Sogoni, E M; Sonjica, B P; Sonto, M R; Sosibo, J E; Sotyu, M M; Suka, L; Sulliman, E M; Sunduza, T B; Surty, M E; Thabethe, E; Thobejane, S G; Thomson, B; Tinto, B; Tsebe, S R; Tseke, G K; Tsenoli, S L; Tshivhase, T J; Tshwete, P; Tsotetsi, D R; Turok, B; Twala, N M; Vadi, I; Van der Merwe, S C; Van Rooyen, D D; Van Wyk, A; Xaba, P P; Yengeni, L E; Zikalala, C N Z; Zondi, K M; Zulu, B Z.

NOES - 59: Alberts, A D; Boinamo, G G; Bosman, L L; Coetzee, T W; Davidson, I O; De Freitas, M S F; Du Toit, N D; Dudley, C; Duncan, P C; Ellis, M J; Farrow, S B; Fritz, A T; George, D T; Groenewald, P J; James, W G; Kalyan, S V; Kloppers-Lourens, J C; Kohler-Barnard, D; Kopane, S P; Lamoela, H; Lee, T D; Lorimer, J R B; Lotriet, A; Louw, A; Lovemore, A T; Marais, E J; Marais, S J F; Masango, S J; Maynier, D J; Mazibuko, L D; Meshoe, K R J; Michael, N W A; Mokgalapa, S; More, E; Morgan, G R; Motau, S C; Mubu, K S; Mulder, C P; Ollis, I M; Rabie, P J; Rabotapi, M W; Robinson, D; Ross, D; Schmidt, H C; Selfe, J; Shinn, M R; Smiles, D C; Steyn, A; Steyn, A C; Swart, M; Swathe, M M; Trollip, R A P; Van Dalen, P; Van der Linde, J J; Van der Walt, D; Van Dyk, S M; Van Schalkwyk, H C; Waters, M; Wenger, M.

Vote accordingly agreed to. Vote No 16 - Higher Education and Training - put.

Declarations of vote:

Deputy Speaker, the purpose of Budget Vote 16 is to support much-needed industrial skilling to grow the further education and training college sector and to increase both access to and quality of education at our 23 universities and 53 FET colleges.

The Sector Education and Training Authorities, Setas, are not financing or assembling programmes of skill acquisition and training on scale. Many are glaringly dysfunctional, and have been so for a very long time. The problem with the Setas is that they are not spending their money effectively. The FET sector colleges must grow their enrolment from a current 125 000 to 1 million students by 2016 to reach their potential.

The funding for growth on scale is simply not there. We have no difficulties at all with the funding going to universities.

It is for these reasons that the DA opposes the Budget Vote. It is an exercise in business as usual. We need real change and not fictional, paper transformation. Thank you. [Applause.]

Deputy Speaker, the ANC supports the Vote on Higher Education and Training. In fact, we support it because between the Departments of Higher Education and Training and Basic Education, this government, led by our President, is in fact putting at least 20% to 23% of the national fiscus into education.

We all know that more money can be given in terms of universities and colleges, etc, but the reality is that with the money that's there now, there is a balance between that and support for the Seta interventions. And we know there were problems with at least five of the Setas.

Therefore, as a committee, we indicated that that needs to be strengthened. [Interjections.] The Minister and the department are busy with that. We are also, for example, supporting the intervention in expansion, both on infrastructure development and also on the quality of interventions in the FET training environment.

Therefore, as the ANC, both in the committee and in the House here, we support it.

It is, in fact, a disgrace for the DA not to support investment in education in this particular case. Thank you. [Interjections.] [Applause.]

Division demanded.

The House divided: AYES - 216: Abram, S; Adams, P E; Alberts, A D; Baloyi, M R; Bam- Mugwanya, V; Bapela, K O; Bhengu, N R; Bhengu, P; Bikani, F C; Bogopane- Zulu, H I; Booi, M S; Borman, G M; Boshigo, D F; Botha, Y R; Burgess, C V; Buthelezi, M G; Cebekhulu, R N; Chauke, H P; Chikunga, L S; Chohan, F I; Coleman, E M; Cronin, J P; Cwele, S C; De Lille, P; Diale, L N; Dlakude , D E; Dlamini, B O; Dlamini-Zuma, N C; Dlodlo, A; Doidge, G Q M; Dubazana, Z S; Dube, M C; Dudley, C; Dunjwa, M L; Fihla, N B; Fransman, M L; Frolick, C T; Gasebonwe, T M A; Gelderblom, J P; Gigaba, K M N; Gina, N; Godongwana, E; Gololo, C L; Gona, M F; Groenewald, P J; Gumede, D M; Gxowa, N B; Hajaig, F; Hogan, B A; Huang, S-B; Jacobus, L; Jeffery, J H; Joemat-Pettersson, T M; Johnson, M; Kekana, C D; Kenye, T E; Khoarai, L P; Kholwane, S E; Khumalo, F E; Khunou, N P; Komphela, B M; Koornhof, G W; Kota-Fredericks, Z A; Kubayi, M T; Landers, L T; Lekgetho, G; Line, H; Lishivha, T E; Luyenge, Z; Maake, J J; Mabasa, X; Mabedla, N R; Mabuza, M C; MacKenzie, G D; Madlala, N M; Mafolo, M V; Magagula, V V; Magama, H T; Magau, K R; Magazi, M N; Magwanishe, G; Mahlangu-Nkabinde, G L; Makhuba, H N; Makhubela-Mashele, L S; Makhubele, Z S; Makwetla, S P; Malgas, H H; Maluleka, H P; Manamela, K B; Manana, M C; Mandela, Z M D; Manganye, J; Manuel, T A; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Martins, B A D; Mashigo, R M; Mashishi, A C; Masilo, J M; Masutha, T M; Mataboge, D K; Mathebe, D H; Mathebe, P M; Mathibela, N F; Matshoba, J M; Maunye, M M; Mavunda, D W; Maziya, A M; Mc Gluwa, J J; Mdakane, M R; Mdladlana, M M S; Mentor, M P; Meshoe, K R J; Mgabadeli, H C; Mjobo, L N; Mkhulusi, N N P; Mlambo, E M; Mlangeni, A; Mmusi, S G; Mnisi, N A; Mohale, M C; Mokoena, A D; Molebatsi, M A; Molewa, B E E; Moloi-Moropa, J C; Morutoa, M R; Moss, L N; Motimele, M S; Motshekga, M A; Motshekga, M S; Mpontshane, A M; Msweli, H S; Mthethwa, E M; Mthethwa, E N; Mtshali, E; Mulder, C P; Mushwana, F F; Muthambi, A F; Nchabeleng, M E; Ndabandaba, L B G; Ndabeni, S T; Ndebele, J S; Ndlovu, V B; Nelson, W J; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngcengwane, N D; Ngcobo, B T; Ngcobo, E N N; Ngele, N J; Ngwenya, W; Ngwenya-Mabila, P C; Nhlengethwa, D G; Njobe, M A A; Nkwinti, G E; November, N T; Ntapane, S Z; Ntuli, Z C; Nyalungu, R E; Nyanda, M F; Nyekemba, E; Oliphant, G G; Oosthuizen, G C; Pandor, G N M; Petersen-Maduna, P; Phaahla, M J; Phaliso, M N; Pilusa- Mosoane, M E; Radebe, B A; Radebe, G S; Radebe, J T; Ramatlhodi, N A; Rantsolase, M A; Saal, G; Scheemann, G D; Segale-Diswai, M J; Selau, G J; Sexwale, T M G; Shiceka, S; Sibanyoni, J B; Sibhida, N N; Sisulu, M V; Sithole, K P; Sithole, S C N; Sizani, P S; Skosana, J J; Smith, V G; Snell, G T; Sogoni, E M; Sonjica, B P; Sonto, M R; Sosibo, J E; Sotyu, M M; Suka, L; Sulliman, E M; Sunduza, T B; Surty, M E; Thabethe, E; Thobejane, S G; Thomson, B; Tinto, B; Tsebe, S R; Tseke, G K; Tsenoli, S L; Tshivhase, T J; Tshwete, P; Tsotetsi, D R; Turok, B; Twala, N M; Vadi, I; Van der Merwe, S C; Van Rooyen, D D; Van Wyk, A; Xaba, P P; Yengeni, L E; Zikalala, C N Z; Zondi, K M; Zulu, B Z.

NOES - 53: Boinamo, G G; Bosman, L L; Coetzee, T W; Davidson, I O; De Freitas, M S F; Du Toit, N D; Duncan, P C; Ellis, M J; Farrow, S B; Fritz, A T; George, D T; James, W G; Kalyan, S V; Kloppers-Lourens, J C; Kohler-Barnard, D; Kopane, S P; Lamoela, H; Lee, T D; Lorimer, J R B; Lotriet, A; Louw, A; Lovemore, A T; Marais, E J; Marais, S J F; Masango, S J; Maynier, D J; Mazibuko, L D; Michael, N W A; Mokgalapa, S; More, E; Morgan, G R; Motau, S C; Mubu, K S; Ollis, I M; Rabie, P J; Rabotapi, M W; Robinson, D; Ross, D; Schmidt, H C; Selfe, J; Shinn, M R; Smiles, D C; Steyn, A; Steyn, A C; Swart, M; Swathe, M M; Van Dalen, P; Van der Linde, J J; Van der Walt, D; Van Dyk, S M; Van Schalkwyk, H C; Waters, M; Wenger, M.

Vote accordingly agreed to.

Vote No 17 - Labour - put.

Declarations of vote:

Deputy Speaker, the DA will not support the Budget Vote for Labour this year because the director-general, Mr Jimmy Manyi, artificially created future expenditure to justify an additional R1 billion to the budget. The shortage of labour inspectors in all provinces is not adequately addressed in this budget. Currently, the inspectors are not adequately resourced to enable them to do their work.

The Compensation Fund does not deliver on its mandate of compensating injured workers. Instead, it admitted recently before the Standing Committee on Public Accounts, Scopa, that the Fund has been defrauded to the amount of R24,6 million in false claims.

A contract agreement between Siemens and the Department of Labour for the amount of R1,7 billion resulted in fruitless and wasteful expenditure.

The Portfolio Committee on Labour did an oversight visit in provinces last week, and we have seen that the poor do not benefit from the services in labour centres, especially with the Compensation and Unemployment Insurance Fund. Thank you.

Madam Deputy Speaker, Cope is encouraged by some of the developments, but is concerned that government has not been able to stimulate the economy sufficiently to create better labour market conditions. Government knows the significance of job creation, but seems not to have the answers. Meanwhile, the unemployed are languishing in casual jobs or in a total state of despair.

This government has made extravagant promises, but its delivery on those has been minuscule. The suffering of the people must be brought to an end through an effective stimulation of the labour market.

The Department of Labour has admitted before Scopa that the Compensation Fund has been defrauded to the tune of R24,6 million in false claims. Much more remains unaccounted for in this financial year's statements. [Interjections.] Nevertheless, amidst this howling and hackling, Cope will support this Vote.

Deputy Speaker, the Department of Labour is facing the following challenges. The inspectorate has to be monitored properly; supervision has to be done in order to make sure that inspectors go everywhere where they need to go; and there should be communication between the employer and the employee on outstanding issues, especially where there are cases that are postponed by the employer at the expense of the employees.

There are good people in the department, but there are also those who do not care about their work. It is unacceptable that a person can return to the offices of the department more than three times, especially for CCMA cases, without getting proper results.

The service delivery of this department should be more orderly, and let's eliminate those people who are not suitable to do the job. Let's fire them. I am specifically referring to the UIF section where people are doing what they like. Those who are not prepared to work within this department should be replaced by people who care for other people, especially the unemployed. [Interjections.]

Ngeke ningizwe phela uma nibanga umsindo. [You won't hear me if you continue making a noise.]

Accountability, responsibility and enforcement of employees to account for every department and section that they lead should be key factors. Thank you.

Adv A de W ALBERTS: Weens die volgende kwessies, die strukturele diskriminasie teen blankes en informele diskriminasie teen bruinmense en Indirs by wyse van regstellende aksie, asook die diskriminerende orintasie van die departement se direkteur-generaal, mnr Jimmy Manyi, teenoor blankes en minderhede, en sy weiering om afstand te doen van sy posisie by die Black Management Forum waardeur hy die lede van di organisasie kan bevoordeel, vra ons dat mnr Manyi vervang word as direkteur- generaal en stem ons teen die begrotingpos. Dankie. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[Adv A de W ALBERTS: As a result of the following issues, the structural discrimination against whites and informal discrimination against coloured and Indian people by means of affirmative action, as well as the discriminative orientation of the director-general of the department, Mr Jimmy Manyi, against whites and minorities and his refusal to vacate his position at the Black Management Forum through which he can benefit the members of that organisation, we request that Mr Manyi be replaced as director-general and we do not support the Budget Vote. Thank you.]

Deputy Speaker, The Portfolio Committee on Labour is aware of all the challenges that the Department of Labour is facing. We are in the process of addressing those problems. This includes the members who stood up and did not want to support the budget. They are fully aware of all these problems, and the department has agreed that it is in the process of addressing most of them.

In its manifesto, the ANC promises all the citizens of our country - in particular workers - that it will deal with the problems of labour-broking and prohibition of abusive practices. That was not an empty promise. [Interjections.] This budget is going to fulfil those promises. Thank you. [Applause.]

Madam Deputy Speaker, on a point of order: I would just like the hon member to explain who the "bruinmense" [brown people] are.

I believe that it's extremely racist and that it should be withdrawn. [Interjections.] It was the hon member Alberts from the FF Plus. Thank you.

Adv A de W ALBERTS: Minister, daar is mense in Suid-Afrika wat hulself so noem, en ek aanvaar dit ook so. Ek ken persoonlik sulke mense.

Party mense noem hulself kleurlinge en dan is daar mense wat hulself Suid- Afrikaners noem. Maar daar is al hierdie tipes in Suid-Afrika, en ek weet dat daar teen daardie spesifieke groep mense ook gediskrimineer word.

As u 'n beter benaming het, dan sal ek dit gebruik. Ek wil nie minagting teenoor u of enige mense in die Parlement of in Suid-Afrika toon nie. As u enige beter benamings het om 'n groep mense te omskryf, sal ek dit waardeer. Baie dankie. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[Adv A de W ALBERTS: Minister, there are people in South Africa who call themselves this and therefore I accept that this is how it is. I personally know such people.

Some people call themselves coloured and then there are people who call themselves South Africans. But there are all these people of this description in South Africa and I am aware that this specific group of people are also discriminated against.

If you have a more suitable term, then I will use that. I do not want to disrespect you or any person in Parliament or in South Africa. If you have a more suitable term to describe a group of people, I would appreciate it. Thank you.]

Okay, I am not going to allow a dialogue here. I'm sure that there can be an explanation later.

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).

VOTE 18 - Social Development - put.

Declaration of vote:

Madam Deputy Speaker, the ANC supports Vote 18. The budget of R95,9 billion aims to protect the vulnerable by creating an enabling environment for the provision of services that are comprehensive, integrated and sustainable. The bulk of this budget goes to Programme 2, which deals with social security. Social security remains a crucial tool in terms of impacting positively on the lives of families living below the poverty line.

The extension of the child support grant to children up to the age of 18 years remains one of the greatest milestones of this department and government. The continued improvement of the service will clearly enhance its efficiency in reaching out to those who need it most. Social development is key to the development of social cohesion in our communities. It does this by developing policies that impact on social crimes and therefore protects the rights of victims that are affected by these crimes, as well as to prevent these crimes.

Gender-based violence and substance abuse are still too prevalent in our communities. The cohesion of families needs to be attended to so that we can see an improvement in the stability of community life. Thank you. [Applause.]

Vote agreed to.

Vote 19 - Sport and Recreation - put.

Declarations of vote:

Adjunkspeaker, in die jaar wat Suid-Afrika die grootste sportskouspel ter wreld aanbied, is dit baie teleurstellend dat die Departement van Sport en Rekreasie 'n gekwalifiseerde verslag van die Ouditeur-generaal kry.

Dit het gebeur omdat daar mense aangestel is wat nie die mas kon opkom nie en nou moet ons die wrange vrugte pluk. Die slagoffers in die proses is die jeug wie se talent verlore gaan. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[Mr T D LEE: Deputy Speaker, it is very disappointing that, in the year that South Africa hosts the biggest sporting spectacle in the world, the Department of Sport and Recreation received a qualified report from the Auditor-General.

It happened because the people who were appointed were not up to the task and now we have to bear the brunt. The victims in this process are the youth whose talents are being lost.]

Then there is Boxing SA, which has been a disaster since its inception some years ago. It again received a qualified Auditor-General's report this year.

In 2007, the Minister called them, and I quote, "a nuisance" and last year the Minister labelled them the Achilles heel of our work. But Boxing SA is still a bottomless pit into which state resources are poured without any meaningful returns.

It is for this and many other reasons that the DA has introduced a Private Members' Bill to disestablish Boxing SA. South Africa is a nation of sports lovers. As citizens, we all deserve more from our sporting institutions. I hope that the department takes these criticisms to heart and has the courage and political will to make the necessary policy changes.

The DA will not support this Budget Vote. I thank you. [Applause.]

Madam Deputy Speaker, with the minimal resources allocated to this budget, we cannot reach our goals and objectives of social cohesion, transformation, nation-building and creating a healthy and winning nation.

The three goals of the department, namely mass participation, sports development and high performance also cannot be effectively achieved with the reduced budget.

School sports has been downgraded as a priority, as the budget has been slashed from R35 million to R22 million. Sixty-six of our sports federations received a total of R27,62 million, yet Lovelife received R28,693 million. Clearly, our priorities are not correct.

As a committee, we agree that school sport, rural sport and development were the key areas of focus. But this budget does not reflect this position. Transformation has been pushed into the background.

We need to create opportunities for the disadvantaged throughout our country. Cope will shortly be forwarding a far-reaching proposal to help address these critical issues. We believe that this proposal will go some way in tackling these vexing issues. We wish the department well and every success in trying to reach the set priority areas.

Cope will not support this Budget Vote. Thank you. [Applause.]

Deputy Speaker, I want to use this opportunity to wish our national team, Bafana Bafana, all the courage and confidence. They will need it to hold their own against Mexico, which is currently placed 17th on the Fifa world rankings. The sterling performance and entertaining football they played against Bulgaria should inspire them to cause a major upset in their first game.

The ACDP supports the Bafana Bafana coach, Carlos Alberto Parreira, and the entire team, and also this Vote. Thank you. [Applause.]

Madam Deputy Speaker, the ANC supports Vote 19 - Sports and Recreation. The social cohesion the nation is building through sports this year is at its highest peak, and it would never change again as from this year.

The issue of the Auditor-General's qualification on Sports and Recreation is not a qualification. I want to tell the DA that those were matters of emphasis, which, if the department did not adhere to it or deal with certain things, would have resulted in a qualification. It was not a qualification. I think hon Lee will learn a bit more when we are at the portfolio committee level.

On the issue of Lovelife, Lovelife is an international agreement. The R28 million that is given to Sport and Recreation is an international agreement. National Treasury sends that money to Sport and Recreation, which in turn takes the money and gives it to Lovelife.

But central to that is the fact that issues of HIV and Aids, through the awareness of sport, are more easily recognised, and they could be easily profiled when they are situated within Sport and Recreation. Therefore, it is correct that that programme of Lovelife should be with Sport and Recreation to assist our children to be conscious of HIV and Aids and all other challenges that face them.

The issue of less money for sports at schools is not correct. The baseline for Sport and Recreation in 2009 and 2010 was R22 million. After the adjustment, it went up to R35 million. So it is not correct to say to this House that the money has been reduced when the baseline for 2010-11 is R23 million.

An adjustment will therefore come and then it is going to be moving it up. Therefore, the ANC confidently supports this Budget Vote unequivocally. It is correct for all of us to support this Budget Vote. Thank you. [Applause.]

Division demanded.

The House divided:

AYES - 216: Abram, S; Adams, P E; Alberts, A D; Baloyi, M R; Bam- Mugwanya, V; Bapela, K O; Bhengu, N R; Bhengu, P; Bikani, F C; Bogopane- Zulu, H I; Booi, M S; Borman, G M; Boshigo, D F; Botha, Y R; Burgess, C V; Buthelezi, M G; Cebekhulu, R N; Chauke, H P; Chikunga, L S; Chohan, F I; Coleman, E M; Cronin, J P; Cwele, S C; De Lille, P; Diale, L N; Dlakude , D E; Dlamini, B O; Dlamini-Zuma, N C; Dlodlo, A; Doidge, G Q M; Dubazana, Z S; Dube, M C; Dudley, C; Dunjwa, M L; Fihla, N B; Fransman, M L; Frolick, C T; Gasebonwe, T M A; Gelderblom, J P; Gigaba, K M N; Gina, N; Godongwana, E; Gololo, C L; Gona, M F; Groenewald, P J; Gumede, D M; Gxowa, N B; Hajaig, F; Hogan, B A; Huang, S-B; Jacobus, L; Jeffery, J H; Joemat-Pettersson, T M; Johnson, M; Kekana, C D; Kenye, T E; Khoarai, L P; Kholwane, S E; Khumalo, F E; Khunou, N P; Komphela, B M; Koornhof, G W; Kota-Fredericks, Z A; Kubayi, M T; Landers, L T; Lekgetho, G; Line, H; Lishivha, T E; Luyenge, Z; Maake, J J; Mabasa, X; Mabedla, N R; Mabuza, M C; MacKenzie, G D; Madlala, N M; Mafolo, M V; Magagula, V V; Magama, H T; Magau, K R; Magazi, M N; Magwanishe, G; Mahlangu-Nkabinde, G L; Makhuba, H N; Makhubela-Mashele, L S; Makhubele, Z S; Makwetla, S P; Malgas, H H; Maluleka, H P; Manamela, K B; Manana, M C; Mandela, Z M D; Manganye, J; Manuel, T A; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Martins, B A D; Mashigo, R M; Mashishi, A C; Masilo, J M; Masutha, T M; Mataboge, D K; Mathebe, D H; Mathebe, P M; Mathibela, N F; Matshoba, J M; Maunye, M M; Mavunda, D W; Maziya, A M; Mc Gluwa, J J; Mdakane, M R; Mdladlana, M M S; Mentor, M P; Meshoe, K R J; Mgabadeli, H C; Mjobo, L N; Mkhulusi, N N P; Mlambo, E M; Mlangeni, A; Mmusi, S G; Mnisi, N A; Mohale, M C; Mokoena, A D; Molebatsi, M A; Molewa, B E E; Moloi-Moropa, J C; Morutoa, M R; Moss, L N; Motimele, M S; Motshekga, M A; Motshekga, M S; Mpontshane, A M; Msweli, H S; Mthethwa, E M; Mthethwa, E N; Mtshali, E; Mulder, C P; Mushwana, F F; Muthambi, A F; Nchabeleng, M E; Ndabandaba, L B G; Ndabeni, S T; Ndebele, J S; Ndlovu, V B; Nelson, W J; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngcengwane, N D; Ngcobo, B T; Ngcobo, E N N; Ngele, N J; Ngwenya, W; Ngwenya-Mabila, P C; Nhlengethwa, D G; Njobe, M A A; Nkwinti, G E; November, N T; Ntapane, S Z; Ntuli, Z C; Nyalungu, R E; Nyanda, M F; Nyekemba, E; Oliphant, G G; Oosthuizen, G C; Pandor, G N M; Petersen-Maduna, P; Phaahla, M J; Phaliso, M N; Pilusa- Mosoane, M E; Radebe, B A; Radebe, G S; Radebe, J T; Ramatlhodi, N A; Rantsolase, M A; Saal, G; Scheemann, G D; Segale-Diswai, M J; Selau, G J; Sexwale, T M G; Shiceka, S; Sibanyoni, J B; Sibhida, N N; Sisulu, M V; Sithole, K P; Sithole, S C N; Sizani, P S; Skosana, J J; Smith, V G; Snell, G T; Sogoni, E M; Sonjica, B P; Sonto, M R; Sosibo, J E; Sotyu, M M; Suka, L; Sulliman, E M; Sunduza, T B; Surty, M E; Thabethe, E; Thobejane, S G; Thomson, B; Tinto, B; Tsebe, S R; Tseke, G K; Tsenoli, S L; Tshivhase, T J; Tshwete, P; Tsotetsi, D R; Turok, B; Twala, N M; Vadi, I; Van der Merwe, S C; Van Rooyen, D D; Van Wyk, A; Xaba, P P; Yengeni, L E; Zikalala, C N Z; Zondi, K M; Zulu, B Z.

NOES - 53: Boinamo, G G; Bosman, L L; Coetzee, T W; Davidson, I O; De Freitas, M S F; Du Toit, N D; Duncan, P C; Ellis, M J; Farrow, S B; Fritz, A T; George, D T; James, W G; Kalyan, S V; Kloppers-Lourens, J C; Kohler-Barnard, D; Kopane, S P; Lamoela, H; Lee, T D; Lorimer, J R B; Lotriet, A; Louw, A; Lovemore, A T; Marais, E J; Marais, S J F; Masango, S J; Maynier, D J; Mazibuko, L D; Michael, N W A; Mokgalapa, S; More, E; Morgan, G R; Motau, S C; Mubu, K S; Ollis, I M; Rabie, P J; Rabotapi, M W; Robinson, D; Ross, D; Schmidt, H C; Selfe, J; Shinn, M R; Smiles, D C; Steyn, A; Steyn, A C; Swart, M; Swathe, M M; Van Dalen, P; Van der Linde, J J; Van der Walt, D; Van Dyk, S M; Van Schalkwyk, H C; Waters, M; Wenger, M.

Vote accordingly agreed to.

Order, we know that members may not leave the House until the results have been declared!

DEPUTY MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: Madam Deputy Speaker, on a point of order: Just for the record, we have now completed voting, but in the Budget Vote, both the DA and Cope expressed their support, it's on Hansard. So, some forces changed their minds from then till now. Thank you.

Vote No 20 - Correctional Services - put.

Declarations of vote:

Deputy Speaker, we would like to welcome the newly-appointed National Commissioner for Correctional Services. We hope that his appointment and that of the new Chief Financial Officer will improve the situation in the department.

We say this because all is not well in the department. The department has had six successive qualified audits, and the national commissioner is the third incumbent in this post in the last two years. As a result of that there has been a massive leadership vacuum.

Partly because of this, this budget is not aligned with the aims and objectives of the White Paper on Corrections, five years after that White Paper's adoption by the ANC government.

The department is plagued by instances of corruption that lead to prisoners escaping, as recently occurred in Durban Westville, and to the unhealthy influence of prison gangs.

Every oversight visit to prisons we undertake exposes managers who cannot manage, staff vacancies that are not filled, maintenance work that is incomplete, expensive security equipment that is not working and inmates who are not productive.

Five years ago government promised eight new prisons. Only one has been built in Kimberly, but it was delivered 18 months late and commissioned without telephones or IT equipment. The construction of the other prisons awaits the advice of transactional advisers, at the same time serious overcrowding is a feature of two-thirds of the prisons in South African

Under these circumstances, we cannot support the Budget Vote. [Applause.]

Madam Deputy Speaker, the ANC supports the Budget Vote. I think that the hon Selfe and others should support the budget, because unless you support the budget and make an undertaking to monitor and oversee on a greater basis, we cannot do the things that you are talking about, Mr Selfe.

Those things are only achievable - and we agree with you that there have been shortcomings - if we all support the budget. They are only achievable if you and I and everybody else, in supporting the budget, monitor what is being spent through the budget.

The Minister and everybody else agree with us that there are shortcomings. What we need is for this whole House to support the budget and for the whole House to be there to assist in this difficult task. We support the Budget Vote. [Applause.]

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).

Vote 21-Defence and Military Veterans - put

Declarations of Vote:

Deputy Speaker, the Minister of Defence and Military Veterans, Lindiwe Sisulu, took command of the defence department a year ago. Since then the Minister has notched up some significant achievements, not least the deployment of the Defence Force to safeguard the landward and maritime borders of our country.

However, these achievements have been overshadowed by the secretisation, or perhaps more correctly, the resecretisation of virtually all matters relating to the Defence Force. This has had the effect of building up suspicion, breaking down trust and effectively insulating the Defence Force from any proper scrutiny and oversight by Parliament. The fact is that the Minister is fast turning the Defence Force into a state within a state.

I am sure that most hon members are familiar with Senator Owen Horwoord, the less than hon Minister of Finance during the information scandal, who signed payment cheques without looking at them or checking on the purpose of the expenditure.

The fact is that if this Parliament supports the defence budget, then Parliament is in danger of doing a collective Owen Horwoord: effectively signing a cheque for R3,7 billion, made out to the defence department without really knowing on what or to what effect the money is being spent.

This we will not and cannot do. The DA will therefore not support the Defence and Military Veterans budget for the 2010-11 financial year. I thank you. [Applause.]

Hon member, did you forget to add "hon" to Lindiwe Sisulu or was it deliberate?

Deputy Speaker, I addressed the hon Lindiwe Sisulu as "the Minister of Defence and Military Veterans, Lindiwe Sisulu". [Interjections.]

I did not hear it like that and therefore I asked. You said, "Minister of Defence and Military Veterans, Lindiwe Sisulu". Are you all responding on his behalf?

Deputy Speaker, a challenge facing this department is the involvement of young people in service training. It is important that provinces and all the different stakeholders should be involved in recruiting young people to ensure that these people are attending the service training. The IFP supports this action because we believe that it will not be used politically for the propaganda machinery, especially for people who are known to you.

Co-operation and working together with labour unions is of paramount importance and if they are recognised, they should work together. If they are not recognised, they should not be given a platform to work together. It must be quite clear. They must draw a line.

The IFP awaits the amendments of the Defence Amendment Bill in order to ensure that the trade unions within the department are curtailed because there are so many of them with powers that they are not supposed to have. Thank you.

Adjunkspeaker, ek wil net vir die agb Maynier s dat Owen Horwood presies geweet het wat hy geteken het. Hy het net gelieg toe hy ges het dat hy nie geweet het nie.

Ek is bly baie lede van die Kabinet is vanmiddag hier. Die Kabinet gee opdragte aan die SA Nasionale Weermag. Hulle verwag van die SANW om 'n sekere mandaat uit te voer, maar die Kabinet gee nie die geld daarvoor nie. Wat tans in die weermag gebeur is dat die hoofde nou geld van hul operasionele begrotings neem om die salarisse van die soldate te betaal.

As jy die operasionele gelde begin aanwend daarvoor, dan is jou gevegsgereedheid besig om tot niet te gaan. Daar is nie eers genoeg geld om ammunisie aan te koop om die Material Safety Data Sheet, MSDS, program opleiding te gee in skietwerk nie. Daar is nie eers genoeg geld dat die vliniers van die Suid-Afrikaanse Lugmag in die nag operasioneel kan wees nie.

Ons moet besluit of ons 'n weermag wil h of nie. As u as 'n Kabinet besluit dat u 'n weermag wil h, moet u toesien dat die geld daar is. Die VF Plus wil dit ook op rekord stel dat daar nou nie eers genoeg geld is om die bestaande weermag aan die gang te hou nie; daar sal nog minder geld wees om 'n nasionale dienspligstelsel aan die gang te hou.

Ons kan nie werk skep in die weermag nie. Die weermag is 'n professionele, konstitusionele instelling wat die integriteit van die land moet beskerm. Dit hang van u af. Ten spyte van die tekort aan geld, sal die VF Plus steeds die begrotingspos ondersteun. Ek dank u. (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)

[Mr P J GROENEWALD: Deputy Speaker, I just want to tell the hon Maynier that Owen Horwood knew exactly what he was signing. He was simply lying when he said that he did not know.

I am glad that many Cabinet members are present here this afternoon. Cabinet issues instructions to the SA National Defence Force. Cabinet expects the SANDF to fulfil a particular mandate, but fails to provide the necessary funds. What currently happens in the Defence Force is that those in charge take funds out of their operational budgets to pay soldiers' wages.

Once you start using operational funds for that purpose, your battle preparedness goes downhill. There is not even enough money to buy ammunition for marksmanship training in respect of the Material Safety Data Sheet, MSDS, programme. There is not even enough money to allow South African Airforce pilots to be operational at night.

We have to decide whether we want a defence force or not. If you as Cabinet decide that you want a defence force, you must see to it that the money is available. The FF Plus also wishes to place it on record that at present there is not even enough money to keep the existing Defence Force going; there will be even less money to maintain a system based on compulsory military service.

We cannot generate employment in the Defence Force. The Defence Force is a professional, constitutional institution mandated to protect the integrity of the country. It is up to you. Despite the financial shortfall, the FF Plus supports the Budget Vote. Thank you.]

Deputy Speaker, I really want to clarify this matter. If you say that the DA will not support this Budget Vote, clearly you should then ask yourself how much pride you take in your country. How do you reflect on the issues of national security?

We are dealing here with national security. We are not dealing here with issues of people who are social workers. We keep on emphasising all the time that if you don't want to understand the issues of confidentiality within the SA National Defence Force, SANDF, then you must accept the fact that these are not National Intelligent Agency, NIA, workers.

These are men who are highly trained and are supposed to defend the sovereignty of South Africa.

At no stage did the Minister say that she will never avail you of any information that you are looking for. She has always said to Parliament to sit down and to speak to its own Chief Whip to sit in the Joint Rules Committee and define what confidentiality in Parliament is.

Don't make sweeping statements here. You know for a fact that within the rules of Parliament, there is no definition of confidentially, when it comes to dealing with the lives of soldiers. It is a sweeping statement that you are making. It is not informed at all. We will continue to try and lecture you in the committee. The ANC will definitely support this Vote. Thank you. [Applause.]

Division demanded.

The House divided:

AYES - 216: Abram, S; Adams, P E; Alberts, A D; Baloyi, M R; Bam- Mugwanya, V; Bapela, K O; Bhengu, N R; Bhengu, P; Bikani, F C; Bogopane- Zulu, H I; Booi, M S; Borman, G M; Boshigo, D F; Botha, Y R; Burgess, C V; Buthelezi, M G; Cebekhulu, R N; Chauke, H P; Chikunga, L S; Chohan, F I; Coleman, E M; Cronin, J P; Cwele, S C; De Lille, P; Diale, L N; Dlakude , D E; Dlamini, B O; Dlamini-Zuma, N C; Dlodlo, A; Doidge, G Q M; Dubazana, Z S; Dube, M C; Dudley, C; Dunjwa, M L; Fihla, N B; Fransman, M L; Frolick, C T; Gasebonwe, T M A; Gelderblom, J P; Gigaba, K M N; Gina, N; Godongwana, E; Gololo, C L; Gona, M F; Groenewald, P J; Gumede, D M; Gxowa, N B; Hajaig, F; Hogan, B A; Huang, S-B; Jacobus, L; Jeffery, J H; Joemat-Pettersson, T M; Johnson, M; Kekana, C D; Kenye, T E; Khoarai, L P; Kholwane, S E; Khumalo, F E; Khunou, N P; Komphela, B M; Koornhof, G W; Kota-Fredericks, Z A; Kubayi, M T; Landers, L T; Lekgetho, G; Line, H; Lishivha, T E; Luyenge, Z; Maake, J J; Mabasa, X; Mabedla, N R; Mabuza, M C; MacKenzie, G D; Madlala, N M; Mafolo, M V; Magagula, V V; Magama, H T; Magau, K R; Magazi, M N; Magwanishe, G; Mahlangu-Nkabinde, G L; Makhuba, H N; Makhubela-Mashele, L S; Makhubele, Z S; Makwetla, S P; Malgas, H H; Maluleka, H P; Manamela, K B; Manana, M C; Mandela, Z M D; Manganye, J; Manuel, T A; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Martins, B A D; Mashigo, R M; Mashishi, A C; Masilo, J M; Masutha, T M; Mataboge, D K; Mathebe, D H; Mathebe, P M; Mathibela, N F; Matshoba, J M; Maunye, M M; Mavunda, D W; Maziya, A M; Mc Gluwa, J J; Mdakane, M R; Mdladlana, M M S; Mentor, M P; Meshoe, K R J; Mgabadeli, H C; Mjobo, L N; Mkhulusi, N N P; Mlambo, E M; Mlangeni, A; Mmusi, S G; Mnisi, N A; Mohale, M C; Mokoena, A D; Molebatsi, M A; Molewa, B E E; Moloi-Moropa, J C; Morutoa, M R; Moss, L N; Motimele, M S; Motshekga, M A; Motshekga, M S; Mpontshane, A M; Msweli, H S; Mthethwa, E M; Mthethwa, E N; Mtshali, E; Mulder, C P; Mushwana, F F; Muthambi, A F; Nchabeleng, M E; Ndabandaba, L B G; Ndabeni, S T; Ndebele, J S; Ndlovu, V B; Nelson, W J; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngcengwane, N D; Ngcobo, B T; Ngcobo, E N N; Ngele, N J; Ngwenya, W; Ngwenya-Mabila, P C; Nhlengethwa, D G; Njobe, M A A; Nkwinti, G E; November, N T; Ntapane, S Z; Ntuli, Z C; Nyalungu, R E; Nyanda, M F; Nyekemba, E; Oliphant, G G; Oosthuizen, G C; Pandor, G N M; Petersen-Maduna, P; Phaahla, M J; Phaliso, M N; Pilusa- Mosoane, M E; Radebe, B A; Radebe, G S; Radebe, J T; Ramatlhodi, N A; Rantsolase, M A; Saal, G; Scheemann, G D; Segale-Diswai, M J; Selau, G J; Sexwale, T M G; Shiceka, S; Sibanyoni, J B; Sibhida, N N; Sisulu, M V; Sithole, K P; Sithole, S C N; Sizani, P S; Skosana, J J; Smith, V G; Snell, G T; Sogoni, E M; Sonjica, B P; Sonto, M R; Sosibo, J E; Sotyu, M M; Suka, L; Sulliman, E M; Sunduza, T B; Surty, M E; Thabethe, E; Thobejane, S G; Thomson, B; Tinto, B; Tsebe, S R; Tseke, G K; Tsenoli, S L; Tshivhase, T J; Tshwete, P; Tsotetsi, D R; Turok, B; Twala, N M; Vadi, I; Van der Merwe, S C; Van Rooyen, D D; Van Wyk, A; Xaba, P P; Yengeni, L E; Zikalala, C N Z; Zondi, K M; Zulu, B Z. NOES - 53: Boinamo, G G; Bosman, L L; Coetzee, T W; Davidson, I O; De Freitas, M S F; Du Toit, N D; Duncan, P C; Ellis, M J; Farrow, S B; Fritz, A T; George, D T; James, W G; Kalyan, S V; Kloppers-Lourens, J C; Kohler-Barnard, D; Kopane, S P; Lamoela, H; Lee, T D; Lorimer, J R B; Lotriet, A; Louw, A; Lovemore, A T; Marais, E J; Marais, S J F; Masango, S J; Maynier, D J; Mazibuko, L D; Michael, N W A; Mokgalapa, S; More, E; Morgan, G R; Motau, S C; Mubu, K S; Ollis, I M; Rabie, P J; Rabotapi, M W; Robinson, D; Ross, D; Schmidt, H C; Selfe, J; Shinn, M R; Smiles, D C; Steyn, A; Steyn, A C; Swart, M; Swathe, M M; Van Dalen, P; Van der Linde, J J; Van der Walt, D; Van Dyk, S M; Van Schalkwyk, H C; Waters, M; Wenger, M.

Vote accordingly agreed to.

Vote No 22 - Independent Complaints Directorate - put.

Declarations of vote:

Madam Deputy Speaker, as Cope we can only hope that this Vote will not be sub judice according to the words of hon Mbalula. Section 205(3) of the Constitution states that the Police Service's job is to prevent, combat and investigate crime; maintain public order; protect and secure the inhabitants of the Republic and their property; and to uphold and enforce the law.

The statistics, on the other hand, reveal that over the past six years the following has happened: 112 982 people were murdered; 132 398 people survived murder attempts; 403 791 sexual offences were committed; 1 368 301 assaults with grievous bodily harm were committed; 746 435 robberies with aggravating circumstances were committed; and 81 761 car hijackings took place.

On average, 100 000 South Africans experience some form of serious crime every month. Even hon President Jacob Zuma publicly acknowledged that serious crime is a problem in South Africa. At a time when the country is in serious economic difficulties ...

Unfortunately, Madam Deputy Speaker, we cannot support this Vote. [Time expired.]

Deputy Speaker, the ACDP welcomes the newly appointed Executive Director of the ICD, Mr Francois Beukman. The ACDP also trusts that, under his leadership and guidance, the efficiency of the ICD and the turnaround time for the finalisation of investigations into corrupt and abusive police officers will be greatly improved.

The ACDP will support the increased Budget Vote No 22 - Independent Complaints Directorate. Thank you. [Applause.]

Madam Deputy Speaker, I think it is important to mention that the ICD is Vote No 22. I think Cope's declaration is misplaced; it is for Vote No 24 and not No 22. [Interjections.]

The mandate of the ICD is to investigate any misconduct or offences committed by SAPS, or municipal police services, not the crime statistics you were telling us about. Sorry, sir, we welcome the ACDP comment. The ANC will support the Budget Vote. It's misplaced. Thank you. [Applause.]

Madam Chair, on a point of order: It seems the House cannot have a division because Cope is having its own division outside. [Laughter.]

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: I'm sure we are all comfortable about sleeping here!

Vote agreed to.

Vote No 23 - Justice and Constitutional Development - put.

Declarations of vote:

Madam Deputy Speaker, the DA cannot support the R2,4 billion in this Vote which is being allocated to the National Prosecuting Authority, NPA. The National Director of Public Prosecutions Advocate Simelane's strategic plan did not match the Estimates of National Expenditure or of that of the Appropriation Bill. For example, R81 million is specifically allocated to the Asset Forfeiture Unit, which Advocate Simelane attempted to shut down. And an amount of R481 million was allocated to co-operative services, which he has decided to move to Justice without the permission of hon Minister Radebe.

We welcome the hon Minister Radebe's attempt to reverse the changes of the Director of Public Prosecutions, but he was simply ignored by Advocate Simelane. We welcome the hon President Zuma's more successful instruction to stop all proposed changes. However, deferring any restructuring until the Ministerial cluster has resolved how they will implement their performance agreements and mandate is unsatisfactory and remains dangerous.

Advocate Simelane should have been called back and told by the justice committee that we would not vote in favour of the budget unless he formally undertook to stop restructuring, shutting down units and demoting prosecutors.

We are deeply concerned about the trends at the NPA, including, amongst other things, that the NDPP seems to make unilateral decisions and that not even hon Minister Radebe is aware of this.

The DA would want to see, for example, Advocate Gerry Nel's salary paid. However, we need to register our protest at the fact that he and his team were taken off a case like that of defeating the ends of justice against the former crime intelligence head, Mr Mulangi Mphego, resulting in the case being thrown out.

Our objection is specifically against the R2,4 billion for the NPA. However, due to the intertwined nature of the departments, we have no choice but to voice our dissatisfaction in the strongest way by voting against the budget as a whole. [Applause.]

Deputy Speaker, I'm sure I have this one right this time around! [Laughter.] We need to ensure that life is valued again. In the recent past, life has become cheap. People are being killed left, right and centre for no apparent reason. It is the judiciary's responsibility to uphold the law and to make certain that we can again be proud of what we have achieved.

In assisting the judiciary in performing their important task, we need to ensure that it's independent. This is of the utmost importance because it would seem as if one can get away with anything these days if one is well- connected.

We hope that the new proposed Bills will go a long way in ensuring the independence of the judiciary, but only time will tell. There is still a big problem with access to the courts of our country. Ordinary South Africans are finding it hard to get justice.

What is happening at the NPA is cause for grave discomfort. Cope will support this Vote. Thank you.

Madam Deputy Speaker, the ANC supports Vote No 23. We do so informed by an understanding that the principle of separation of powers is the inimitable cornerstone of our constitutional democracy.

Whilst the legislature, the executive and the judiciary are independent of each other, they constitute three legs of one pot, making them interdependent organs of one body. We therefore support the submissions of strategic plans to the legislature, not for approval by us, but in order to empower us to know what the budgets are financing so that we can exercise effective oversight.

In exercising this oversight, the legislature will be well advised not to descend into the arena of policy implementation and operations as this resorts in the exclusive domain of the executive. For instance, as the legislature sitting here, we cannot reconstitute ourselves as the high court of Parliament as happened previously. Otherwise we will be usurping the power of the judiciary.

Similarly, in exercising its oversight role within this legislature, the Standing Committee on Public Accounts, Scopa, has to do so having consulted with the relevant departments; otherwise Scopa's actions would constitute encroachments onto the functions of other committees. The ANC supports the Budget Vote. Thank you. [Applause.]

Division demanded.

The House divided:

AYES - 216: Abram, S; Adams, P E; Alberts, A D; Baloyi, M R; Bam- Mugwanya, V; Bapela, K O; Bhengu, N R; Bhengu, P; Bikani, F C; Bogopane- Zulu, H I; Booi, M S; Borman, G M; Boshigo, D F; Botha, Y R; Burgess, C V; Buthelezi, M G; Cebekhulu, R N; Chauke, H P; Chikunga, L S; Chohan, F I; Coleman, E M; Cronin, J P; Cwele, S C; De Lille, P; Diale, L N; Dlakude , D E; Dlamini, B O; Dlamini-Zuma, N C; Dlodlo, A; Doidge, G Q M; Dubazana, Z S; Dube, M C; Dudley, C; Dunjwa, M L; Fihla, N B; Fransman, M L; Frolick, C T; Gasebonwe, T M A; Gelderblom, J P; Gigaba, K M N; Gina, N; Godongwana, E; Gololo, C L; Gona, M F; Groenewald, P J; Gumede, D M; Gxowa, N B; Hajaig, F; Hogan, B A; Huang, S-B; Jacobus, L; Jeffery, J H; Joemat-Pettersson, T M; Johnson, M; Kekana, C D; Kenye, T E; Khoarai, L P; Kholwane, S E; Khumalo, F E; Khunou, N P; Komphela, B M; Koornhof, G W; Kota-Fredericks, Z A; Kubayi, M T; Landers, L T; Lekgetho, G; Line, H; Lishivha, T E; Luyenge, Z; Maake, J J; Mabasa, X; Mabedla, N R; Mabuza, M C; MacKenzie, G D; Madlala, N M; Mafolo, M V; Magagula, V V; Magama, H T; Magau, K R; Magazi, M N; Magwanishe, G; Mahlangu-Nkabinde, G L; Makhuba, H N; Makhubela-Mashele, L S; Makhubele, Z S; Makwetla, S P; Malgas, H H; Maluleka, H P; Manamela, K B; Manana, M C; Mandela, Z M D; Manganye, J; Manuel, T A; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Martins, B A D; Mashigo, R M; Mashishi, A C; Masilo, J M; Masutha, T M; Mataboge, D K; Mathebe, D H; Mathebe, P M; Mathibela, N F; Matshoba, J M; Maunye, M M; Mavunda, D W; Maziya, A M; Mc Gluwa, J J; Mdakane, M R; Mdladlana, M M S; Mentor, M P; Meshoe, K R J; Mgabadeli, H C; Mjobo, L N; Mkhulusi, N N P; Mlambo, E M; Mlangeni, A; Mmusi, S G; Mnisi, N A; Mohale, M C; Mokoena, A D; Molebatsi, M A; Molewa, B E E; Moloi-Moropa, J C; Morutoa, M R; Moss, L N; Motimele, M S; Motshekga, M A; Motshekga, M S; Mpontshane, A M; Msweli, H S; Mthethwa, E M; Mthethwa, E N; Mtshali, E; Mulder, C P; Mushwana, F F; Muthambi, A F; Nchabeleng, M E; Ndabandaba, L B G; Ndabeni, S T; Ndebele, J S; Ndlovu, V B; Nelson, W J; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngcengwane, N D; Ngcobo, B T; Ngcobo, E N N; Ngele, N J; Ngwenya, W; Ngwenya-Mabila, P C; Nhlengethwa, D G; Njobe, M A A; Nkwinti, G E; November, N T; Ntapane, S Z; Ntuli, Z C; Nyalungu, R E; Nyanda, M F; Nyekemba, E; Oliphant, G G; Oosthuizen, G C; Pandor, G N M; Petersen-Maduna, P; Phaahla, M J; Phaliso, M N; Pilusa- Mosoane, M E; Radebe, B A; Radebe, G S; Radebe, J T; Ramatlhodi, N A; Rantsolase, M A; Saal, G; Scheemann, G D; Segale-Diswai, M J; Selau, G J; Sexwale, T M G; Shiceka, S; Sibanyoni, J B; Sibhida, N N; Sisulu, M V; Sithole, K P; Sithole, S C N; Sizani, P S; Skosana, J J; Smith, V G; Snell, G T; Sogoni, E M; Sonjica, B P; Sonto, M R; Sosibo, J E; Sotyu, M M; Suka, L; Sulliman, E M; Sunduza, T B; Surty, M E; Thabethe, E; Thobejane, S G; Thomson, B; Tinto, B; Tsebe, S R; Tseke, G K; Tsenoli, S L; Tshivhase, T J; Tshwete, P; Tsotetsi, D R; Turok, B; Twala, N M; Vadi, I; Van der Merwe, S C; Van Rooyen, D D; Van Wyk, A; Xaba, P P; Yengeni, L E; Zikalala, C N Z; Zondi, K M; Zulu, B Z.

NOES - 53: Boinamo, G G; Bosman, L L; Coetzee, T W; Davidson, I O; De Freitas, M S F; Du Toit, N D; Duncan, P C; Ellis, M J; Farrow, S B; Fritz, A T; George, D T; James, W G; Kalyan, S V; Kloppers-Lourens, J C; Kohler-Barnard, D; Kopane, S P; Lamoela, H; Lee, T D; Lorimer, J R B; Lotriet, A; Louw, A; Lovemore, A T; Marais, E J; Marais, S J F; Masango, S J; Maynier, D J; Mazibuko, L D; Michael, N W A; Mokgalapa, S; More, E; Morgan, G R; Motau, S C; Mubu, K S; Ollis, I M; Rabie, P J; Rabotapi, M W; Robinson, D; Ross, D; Schmidt, H C; Selfe, J; Shinn, M R; Smiles, D C; Steyn, A; Steyn, A C; Swart, M; Swathe, M M; Van Dalen, P; Van der Linde, J J; Van der Walt, D; Van Dyk, S M; Van Schalkwyk, H C; Waters, M; Wenger, M.

Vote accordingly agreed to.

Vote No 24 - Police - put.

Declarations of vote:

Deputy Speaker, there is just one phrase that keeps on coming to mind as the group of SAPS personnel came in to present before the Police Portfolio Committee: "Show me the money".

Certainly the Minister has dodged my questions in relation to expenditure after expenditure, such as the party held in Bloemfontein. Certainly no one is telling which programmes these millions came from. Who knows which programme is being used as a slush fund?

There are about 50 or more citizens who are murdered here daily, coupled with an increase in violence that shocks the nation. Yet the Minister has seen it fit to quietly drop the target, according to which our Police Service should decrease violent crime, to just 4% to 7%. So, the target has been dropped, yet, the money asked for is up to R53 billion, which boils down to a 3% target decrease in exchange for a 13% budget increase.

We have watched the Minister and his deputy squandering R7,1 million on bling and 5-star hotels - and that is just what we have uncovered to date. On top of that, the Minister has gone against those sages at the outset of our democracy, who determined that this protection entity should be a service rather than a force of the apartheid era. Indeed, he is now pretending as if he is running an army, although we already have one.

While there is a crisis of crime, millions and millions, which could have been used for building and renovating police stations, simply can't be accounted for. Imagine any corporation allowing this sort of report on finances that SAPS property management attempted to fob us off with a fortnight ago; heads would roll!

Patently, the Minister has no idea of what is going on, and certainly not in property management. His predecessor hid away a R7 million report from the head of the SAPS legal services division, and this Minister is choosing to use taxpayer's money as though it were his own.

The SAPS has been galvanised by the Football World Cup, but whether or not we are going to see the same dedication when August comes, is anyone's guess.

To be voting for this Bill, would suggest that the DA supports the Ministry's intention to spend in the same unwise, unaccountable manner. There is no indication that they will do otherwise. Therefore we cannot support this Budget Vote. I thank you. [Applause.]

Deputy Speaker, just for the record, it was not misplaced but I was just overenthusiastic to do my work. That is why I came in a few Votes ahead of everyone! [Laughter.]

Let me not bore this House. I have read the declaration before and suffice it to say, with good conscience, that Cope is not going to support this Vote.

Deputy Speaker, with the kick-off to the Fifa Soccer World Cup only 15 days away, the ACDP does not want the police to worry about budgetary constraints. We want them to leave no stone unturned in ensuring that criminals have no place to hide and that all our visitors and spectators from all over the world are going to feel safe in our beautiful country.

Therefore, the ACDP will support this Budget Vote in order to give those committed and disciplined police officers encouragement to ensure that the World Cup games will be incident-free and that the accommodation and transportation of all the players and officials will go according to plan. I thank you. [Applause.]

Iphini likaSomlomo, ngiyaxolisa ukukumemeza, bekungafanele ngikumemeze, okokuqala thina njengeNkatha Yenkululeko, sithi, laba bantu abafuna umsebenzi kufanele bahlungwe kahle ukuze izigebengu zingangeni kulo msebenzi. Ngoba isigebengu esisodwa senza ukuthi amaphoyisa abukeke eyizigebengi wonke. Kanti akhona asebenza ngokuzimisela, asebenza kanzima aze afele emsebenzini. Izigebengu zimbalwa nje. Ngakho-ke izigebengu asibhekane nazo ngqo.

Okwesibili, mhlonishwa, Phini likaSomlomo, besithi bekungakuhle ukuthi uma umuntu kutholakele ukuthi kukhona akwenzile-unecala, kufanele ukuthi ayohlala ekhaya kubo. Ahlale kubo kunesikhathi esibekiwe ukuthi uzohlala isikhathi esingakanani. Angalokhu ehola imali kahulumeni ebeqethuka evuka ngo 10h00, alale ngo 18h00. Ngoba lokho kwenza ukuthi imali kahulumeni engenzi lutho kanti umsebenzi ukhona, futhi abanye abantu bayawudinga umsebenzi.

Ngakho-ke izinyathelo kufanele zisheshe kakhulu futhi ziphumelele. Amaphoyisa lawo agcwele ubugebengu mhlonishwa, Phini likaSomlomo, ngihlale ngisho zonke izinsuku, awagxoshwe emaphoyiseni. Ngoba ngeke sibe nezigebengu ezingamaphoyisa, ngoba iphoyisa uma lingqongqoza kwami kufanele ngithembe. Uma kungqongqosha iphoyisa eliyisigebengu, ngeke ngithembe.

Okukugcina, ngihlale ngisho ukuthi amaphoyisa kufanele siwahlunge siwenze ukuthi angabi kwezombusazwe, angasebenzisi futhi ezombusazwe, angalekeleli umbusazwe othuli phezu kweminye. Kufanele asebenze ngokuzimisela njengamaphoyisa ukugada wonke umuntu ezweni. Awayeke ukuhlukumeza abantu abangenacala. Awabambe izigebengu okufanele azibambe, Nyambose! (Translation of isiZulu speech follows.)

[Mr V B NDLOVU: Deputy Speaker, pardon me for shouting at you - I was not supposed to shout at you. Firstly we, as the IFP, are saying that these people who are applying for this job must be thoroughly scrutinised so that people with criminal intentions cannot access this sector as one such person can incriminate the whole Police Service. There are police officers who are very committed to their work and even lose their lives in the line of duty. There are very few criminal elements in the Police Service. Therefore let us face criminals directly.

Secondly, Deputy Speaker, if someone is alleged to have committed a crime, we propose that they be suspended. Their suspension should not be indefinite, to prevent them from earning the state's money whilst lying on their backs doing nothing - waking up at 10h00 and going to bed at 18h00. Because that would be wasting the state's money on someone who is doing nothing whilst there is work that is supposed to be done and there are people who need that job.

Therefore, there are steps that need to be taken quickly and they need to be successful. The criminal elements within the Police Service should be fired- I mention this every day, Deputy Speaker. We cannot afford to have police officers who are criminals, because if a police officer knocks at my door I must trust him. But if it is a criminal police officer who is knocking at my door, I cannot trust him.

Lastly, I always say that we should scrutinise police officers and ensure that they are apolitical, that they do not use political means to gain something and that they also not assist any political party in any way. As police officers they should commit themselves to looking after everyone in this country. And they must refrain from harassing innocent people. They must catch criminals as they are supposed to, Nyambose!]

Deputy Speaker, I always wanted to ask the Minister what he said to the AWB leaders. I know some of those people and they are not easy to handle. When I saw them on television they were so mesmerised. So, I don't know what the hon Minister told them. I don't know whether it was Mthethwa magic or something like that. [Laughter.]

Hon Minister, unfortunately I want to tell you that the FF Plus is not mesmerised. The public of South Africa should have trust in the police.

Ek is jammer om vir die agb Minister te s dat ek steeds gereeld oorval word deur mense wat klagtes het waar hulle net eenvoudig deur polisiebeamptes, kan ek amper s, op 'n rassistiese wyse hanteer word. Hierdie is mense wie klagtes wil gaan l en vir wie die polisie nie bereid is om 'n klagstaat te open nie. Die polisie is nie bereid om hul verklarings te neem nie. [Tussenwerpsels.]

Ja, dis 'n goeie vraag. Hoekom nie? Enige burger van Suid-Afrika het die reg om na 'n polisiekantoor te gaan en 'n klag te gaan l wat die polisie moet ondersoek.

Agb Minister, dit is vir my onaanvaarbaar dat 'n lid van die publiek by 'n polisiekantoor opdaag en sien dat die polisieman agter die toonbank 'n man is wie hom 'n paar weke tevore wou beroof. Ek moes eers 'n vraag aan u in die Parlement vra: hoekom is daardie man nog aan diens? Ek praat spesifiek van die geval by die Boskop-polisiekantoor.

Hy is nou verwyder nadat ek die vraag gevra het, maar dit mag nie gebeur nie. U is op rekord waar u s dat u die polisie wil reinig van korrupsie. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[I am sorry to have to tell the hon Minister that I am still regularly being swamped by people who have complaints where, I can almost say, police officers simply treat them in a racist manner. These are people who want to lay a charge, but for whom the police are not prepared to open a charge sheet. The police are not prepared to take their statements. [Interjections.]

Yes, that is a good question. Why not? Any citizen of South Africa has the right to go to a police station to lay a charge that the police must investigate.

Hon Minister, I find it unacceptable that a member of the public should arrive at a police station to find that the police officer behind the counter is a man who had wanted to rob him a few weeks earlier. I had to ask you a question in Parliament first: why is that man still on duty?

I am talking specifically about the case of the Boskop Police Station.

He has now been removed after I had asked the question, but it must not be allowed to happen. You are on record as saying that you want to rid the police of corruption.]

Hon Minister, we support you in that. We can see that you are trying to put an effort to rid the police of corruption, but we need more. The public still does not trust the police; neither does the FF Plus and we will, therefore, not support the Vote.

Deputy Speaker, the ANC will definitely support this Budget Vote. It is important to inform the House that the Minister of Police spent 94% of the Ministry's budget during the 2008-09 financial year.

About 94% is well within the acceptable standards of budget spending. What is true though is that the hon Kohler-Barnard simply dislikes the Minister as a person. [Applause.]

This dislike is compounded by the fact that the Minister's department is investigating irregularities in the ICT unit of SAPS. Its director, passionately liked by hon Kohler-Barnard, is being investigated for irregularities and her husband, who was a deputy director, reporting to the wife, was removed. [Interjections.] [Applause.]

While this could have been characterised as nepotism, including corruption, it did not earn the Minister appreciation, but instead he was attacked. The investigation by international experts of the forensic science laboratory will definitely exacerbate the attacks on the hon Minister, because, again, it is likely to unearth many untold stories about some who are liked by the hon member.

The fact-finding investigations on who is providing services in SAPS, which the Minister is initiating, will earn him other names because it will most likely unearth other untold stories by the member. I thank you. [Applause.]

We will not ring the bells because we assume everyone is in the House.

Chairperson, I rise on a point of order. I would like to suggest that you cannot rule that we should not ring the bells, even if it is just for 30 seconds. I think that is not in accordance with the Rules. Maybe a member went out for a second and needs to be informed that we are going to vote. I thank you.

Ok, let's ring the bells for 30 seconds, if possible. The technology has given me one minute. Right, now it is able to do 30 seconds.

Chairperson, just while the bells are still ringing, could I just ask you about certain points made by the member who spoke on behalf of the ANC in the Police Budget Vote. Some of the things she said may have been very important, but I am not sure if they were all parliamentary.

I could not quite understand what she was saying. I want to ask you, sir, if I can get a copy of the Hansard tomorrow, and if necessary, raise the matter in the House with you tomorrow.

Hon member, you will definitely get the Hansard.

Division demanded.

The House divided:

AYES - 216: Abram, S; Adams, P E; Alberts, A D; Baloyi, M R; Bam- Mugwanya, V; Bapela, K O; Bhengu, N R; Bhengu, P; Bikani, F C; Bogopane- Zulu, H I; Booi, M S; Borman, G M; Boshigo, D F; Botha, Y R; Burgess, C V; Buthelezi, M G; Cebekhulu, R N; Chauke, H P; Chikunga, L S; Chohan, F I; Coleman, E M; Cronin, J P; Cwele, S C; De Lille, P; Diale, L N; Dlakude , D E; Dlamini, B O; Dlamini-Zuma, N C; Dlodlo, A; Doidge, G Q M; Dubazana, Z S; Dube, M C; Dudley, C; Dunjwa, M L; Fihla, N B; Fransman, M L; Frolick, C T; Gasebonwe, T M A; Gelderblom, J P; Gigaba, K M N; Gina, N; Godongwana, E; Gololo, C L; Gona, M F; Groenewald, P J; Gumede, D M; Gxowa, N B; Hajaig, F; Hogan, B A; Huang, S-B; Jacobus, L; Jeffery, J H; Joemat-Pettersson, T M; Johnson, M; Kekana, C D; Kenye, T E; Khoarai, L P; Kholwane, S E; Khumalo, F E; Khunou, N P; Komphela, B M; Koornhof, G W; Kota-Fredericks, Z A; Kubayi, M T; Landers, L T; Lekgetho, G; Line, H; Lishivha, T E; Luyenge, Z; Maake, J J; Mabasa, X; Mabedla, N R; Mabuza, M C; MacKenzie, G D; Madlala, N M; Mafolo, M V; Magagula, V V; Magama, H T; Magau, K R; Magazi, M N; Magwanishe, G; Mahlangu-Nkabinde, G L; Makhuba, H N; Makhubela-Mashele, L S; Makhubele, Z S; Makwetla, S P; Malgas, H H; Maluleka, H P; Manamela, K B; Manana, M C; Mandela, Z M D; Manganye, J; Manuel, T A; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Martins, B A D; Mashigo, R M; Mashishi, A C; Masilo, J M; Masutha, T M; Mataboge, D K; Mathebe, D H; Mathebe, P M; Mathibela, N F; Matshoba, J M; Maunye, M M; Mavunda, D W; Maziya, A M; Mc Gluwa, J J; Mdakane, M R; Mdladlana, M M S; Mentor, M P; Meshoe, K R J; Mgabadeli, H C; Mjobo, L N; Mkhulusi, N N P; Mlambo, E M; Mlangeni, A; Mmusi, S G; Mnisi, N A; Mohale, M C; Mokoena, A D; Molebatsi, M A; Molewa, B E E; Moloi-Moropa, J C; Morutoa, M R; Moss, L N; Motimele, M S; Motshekga, M A; Motshekga, M S; Mpontshane, A M; Msweli, H S; Mthethwa, E M; Mthethwa, E N; Mtshali, E; Mulder, C P; Mushwana, F F; Muthambi, A F; Nchabeleng, M E; Ndabandaba, L B G; Ndabeni, S T; Ndebele, J S; Ndlovu, V B; Nelson, W J; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngcengwane, N D; Ngcobo, B T; Ngcobo, E N N; Ngele, N J; Ngwenya, W; Ngwenya-Mabila, P C; Nhlengethwa, D G; Njobe, M A A; Nkwinti, G E; November, N T; Ntapane, S Z; Ntuli, Z C; Nyalungu, R E; Nyanda, M F; Nyekemba, E; Oliphant, G G; Oosthuizen, G C; Pandor, G N M; Petersen-Maduna, P; Phaahla, M J; Phaliso, M N; Pilusa- Mosoane, M E; Radebe, B A; Radebe, G S; Radebe, J T; Ramatlhodi, N A; Rantsolase, M A; Saal, G; Scheemann, G D; Segale-Diswai, M J; Selau, G J; Sexwale, T M G; Shiceka, S; Sibanyoni, J B; Sibhida, N N; Sisulu, M V; Sithole, K P; Sithole, S C N; Sizani, P S; Skosana, J J; Smith, V G; Snell, G T; Sogoni, E M; Sonjica, B P; Sonto, M R; Sosibo, J E; Sotyu, M M; Suka, L; Sulliman, E M; Sunduza, T B; Surty, M E; Thabethe, E; Thobejane, S G; Thomson, B; Tinto, B; Tsebe, S R; Tseke, G K; Tsenoli, S L; Tshivhase, T J; Tshwete, P; Tsotetsi, D R; Turok, B; Twala, N M; Vadi, I; Van der Merwe, S C; Van Rooyen, D D; Van Wyk, A; Xaba, P P; Yengeni, L E; Zikalala, C N Z; Zondi, K M; Zulu, B Z.

NOES - 53: Boinamo, G G; Bosman, L L; Coetzee, T W; Davidson, I O; De Freitas, M S F; Du Toit, N D; Duncan, P C; Ellis, M J; Farrow, S B; Fritz, A T; George, D T; James, W G; Kalyan, S V; Kloppers-Lourens, J C; Kohler-Barnard, D; Kopane, S P; Lamoela, H; Lee, T D; Lorimer, J R B; Lotriet, A; Louw, A; Lovemore, A T; Marais, E J; Marais, S J F; Masango, S J; Maynier, D J; Mazibuko, L D; Michael, N W A; Mokgalapa, S; More, E; Morgan, G R; Motau, S C; Mubu, K S; Ollis, I M; Rabie, P J; Rabotapi, M W; Robinson, D; Ross, D; Schmidt, H C; Selfe, J; Shinn, M R; Smiles, D C; Steyn, A; Steyn, A C; Swart, M; Swathe, M M; Van Dalen, P; Van der Linde, J J; Van der Walt, D; Van Dyk, S M; Van Schalkwyk, H C; Waters, M; Wenger, M.

Vote accordingly agreed to.

Vote No 25 - Agriculture Forestry and Fisheries - put.

Declarations of vote:

Chairperson, the DA is disappointed that the agricultural sector was severely neglected and grossly underfunded after being allocated only 0,4% of the total Budget. The Department of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries' budget is further not used for effective service delivery. It is clear that the current human resources, ICT capacity and budget are not adequate to deliver the required level of management and services.

The DA believes that the following issues are critical for food security. Taking into account the importance of research for the sector, it is clear that the Agricultural Research Council is grossly underfunded and that many posts are currently vacant. About R300 million is needed annually to address this constraint.

Onderstepoort Biological Products renders a world-class service to the livestock industry, but has to survive without any budgetary support from government.

The Perishable Products Export Control Board, PPECB, is in charge of monitoring our borders for the import and export of unwanted products, but is not supported financially by government to effectively execute this important function.

Proper management of natural disasters is of critical importance for long- term sustainability of the sector. The allocated budget for this purpose is also insufficient.

Rural safety and stock theft is completely out of control. Farmers lost R366 million to stock theft in the 2008-09 financial year. This demonstrates the size of the problem.

Daar is 'n behoefte aan 'n landbouhandelsbeleid wat beter na Suid-Afrika se belange sal omsien. Die aangekondigde invoertarief op koring is onvoldoende en gaan tot 'n verdere afname in koringproduksie, en gevolglik 'n toename in invoere met gepaardgaande werkverlies en verdere terugslae vir landelike ontwikkeling, bydra.

Die beweerde wanbestuur binne Mariene en Kusbestuur word klaarblyklik onder die mat gevee. Die vissery departement sal dringend alle aspekte van die bedryf moet aanspreek. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[There is a need for an agricultural trade policy that will take better care of South Africa's interests. The announced import tariff on grain is insufficient and will contribute to a further drop in grain production, and subsequently to higher imports accompanied by job losses and further setbacks to rural development.

The alleged mismanagement within Marine and Coastal Management is evidently being swept under the carpet. The fisheries section of the department must urgently address all aspects of the industry.]

An example of wasteful expenditure is the R600 million which was spent on patrol vessels and the disastrous deployment which followed it.

The DA will not support this Vote.

Chairperson, while Cope will support the Budget Vote, we would like the Minister to note the following concerns.

From being a food-exporting country, South Africa has now become a net importer of food. From being a major employer, agriculture has been shedding jobs.

Agriculture is one of the most sensitive topics across racial groups in this nation, but proper engagement is necessary to achieve equity and stability. A great deal needs to be done to revitalise agriculture.

The Minister stated that: We no longer want to call people emerging farmers.

After 16 years of democracy, Cope agrees that by now we ought to have had skilled farmers ready to make South Africa a food-secure nation. More importantly, we need South Africa to be a country where food is affordable and accessible.

Why has the skills development programme fallen short? Why is knowledge transfer not taking place? Why have 90% of the farms transferred via the land restitution process collapsed?

At a time when joblessness and hunger are acute problems, this department has a lot to answer for. It may not necessarily be this Minister's failure, but, nonetheless, it is her department which is failing South Africa.

Human resource development programmes must be strengthened and food production capacity must be expanded, as should jobs within this sector. The Minister is right in stating that jobs, food security and sustainable livelihoods must be the ultimate aims of this year. As I have already said, Cope will, however, support this Budget Vote.

Chairperson, this is one area among the many that does not need any political gamesmanship at all. Food must be produced and everybody must agree with that fact. The ANC and the committee on agriculture, forestry and fisheries are in synch with the Budget Vote of the Department of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries.

South Africa needs food that is safe and sufficient to feed its own people. This budget enjoins us to do just that and more.

We are mindful of the fact that 0,4% of the total R9 007 billion is not enough to cover all the programmes required to have safe and secure food in our country. As spelt out in the 2003 declaration of the African Union summit at Maputo, all member countries had to increase their agriculture budgets to no less than 10% of their total budgets by 2008. We as the ANC, however, are confident that, with little, we can do more towards the eradication of poverty.

To do so, we are aware that, among other things, our programmes would need to address stock theft, tariff reduction and subsidies. These are the sore points in the field of agriculture. The ANC, regardless of all those inconveniences, supports Budget Vote 25, and its implementation under the able leadership of Comrade Tina Joemat-Pettersson. Amandla! [Power!]

Awethu! [Applause.]

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance dissenting).

Vote No 26 - Communications - put.

Declarations of vote:

Chairperson, Cope welcomes the decision by the SABC Board to withdraw the appointment of Mr Phil Molefe, who is a known sympathiser of the ANC. We, therefore, congratulate the SABC Board for taking this bold step.

Not enough has been done to champion broadband access to the people of South Africa. Hon Minister, we insist that your department take up this matter very seriously, so that all of our people can have access to the knowledge highway. This is vital in pursuing a people-centred and development-oriented paradigm. We must empower the people to empower themselves. This department should create a new infrastructure highway. Cope would want to urge the Minister to make a move in this regard. Cope will not support this Vote. Thank you.

Chairperson, the ANC will support this Vote. I must say, it is clear that the hon member does not understand what he is talking about. If you care about the people of South Africa, you must agree with this budget because in order to roll out the broadband, you will need a spectrum, which is currently trapped somewhere.

The process of digital migration is going to assist us to release the spectrum, which is so much needed for social and economic development.

I will urge the member that, in future, he must attend committee meetings. I know Cope agreed with us in the committee and during the Budget debate. I hoped this time their head was still intact, but now the head has been surgically removed. Maybe this is the reason why they cannot remember what they have supported all along. The ANC supports the Vote. [Applause.]

Vote agreed to (Congress of the People dissenting).

Chairperson, on a point of order: I understand that our colleague from Cope is a new member; however, it's the second Vote now where the hon member has indicated that they objected and would not support the Vote. Still, they did not object and they did not ask for a division. [Laughter.] I would suggest that the Chairperson assist the hon member in order to facilitate the proceedings. Thank you.

Are you assisting the hon member? Hon member, have you been doing that exactly; it is true?

I've just raised my hand, Chairperson, to register our objection.

You should stand up, go to the microphone and then say: "On behalf of the party I want my objection to be noted or recorded." So is it recorded? Thanks, your objection is recorded, but the Vote is agreed to.

Vote agreed to (Congress of the People dissenting).

Chairperson, is it parliamentary to conduct induction in the House? [Laughter.]

We did inductions at the beginning of the Fourth Parliament! [Interjections.]

That party is leaderless now.

But let's proceed with the work.

Vote No 27 - Economic Development - put.

Declarations of vote:

Chairperson, the DA is concerned about the number of Ministries created by the fourth Parliament. Apart from the escalation in costs with regard to the already overburdened fiscus, there are substantial overlaps and duplications between the functions of Finance, the National Planning Commission, Trade and Industry, and Economic Development.

Up to now, the Department of Economic Development has achieved nothing of value except to fund a bureaucracy which became necessary to appease a faction within the ruling party. Current legislation is very clear that the functions to be performed by the Department of Economic Development are adequately covered by the National Treasury and the Department of Trade and Industry.

All the establishment of this department has achieved is the intensification of the present turf war amongst the numerous departments. This has resulted in conflicting signals to investors and the market. If it's left unchecked, it will further undermine the ability of our economy to grow and provide decent work.

Therefore, the DA does not support this Budget Vote, and we recommend the closure of this department. Thank you. [Applause.]

Chairperson, the ANC supports Vote No 27. The DA's call for a division on this Vote is countered by the ANC because it is premised upon wrong assumptions and a misunderstanding of what the aims of this Vote are.

Irrespective of continual and numerous explanations by the Minister, the President and the cluster itself, it seems that the DA is not ready to accept what the President has come up with - unless it came from them; that's the only time they will accept that there needs to be change.

The aim of this particular department is to address the critical gaps in the implementation of economic development strategies and plans within the three spheres of government and the private sector because that co- ordination is needed.

Problems related to inconsistencies and a lack of a common strategic view in respect of the interface between macro and micro economic plans across the key stakeholders in society have been identified by economists as having detrimental effects on implementation, and ultimately on the overall economic development of the country.

The Department of Economic Development is a critical capacity in building a developmental state. It is capable of fostering integrated development planning and interfaces the macro and micro economic policies; guides effective implementation; and promotes continuous monitoring and evaluation. So, this is very necessary for our economy to grow. Thank you. [Time expired.] Division demanded.

The House divided:

AYES - 216: Abram, S; Adams, P E; Alberts, A D; Baloyi, M R; Bam- Mugwanya, V; Bapela, K O; Bhengu, N R; Bhengu, P; Bikani, F C; Bogopane- Zulu, H I; Booi, M S; Borman, G M; Boshigo, D F; Botha, Y R; Burgess, C V; Buthelezi, M G; Cebekhulu, R N; Chauke, H P; Chikunga, L S; Chohan, F I; Coleman, E M; Cronin, J P; Cwele, S C; De Lille, P; Diale, L N; Dlakude , D E; Dlamini, B O; Dlamini-Zuma, N C; Dlodlo, A; Doidge, G Q M; Dubazana, Z S; Dube, M C; Dudley, C; Dunjwa, M L; Fihla, N B; Fransman, M L; Frolick, C T; Gasebonwe, T M A; Gelderblom, J P; Gigaba, K M N; Gina, N; Godongwana, E; Gololo, C L; Gona, M F; Groenewald, P J; Gumede, D M; Gxowa, N B; Hajaig, F; Hogan, B A; Huang, S-B; Jacobus, L; Jeffery, J H; Joemat-Pettersson, T M; Johnson, M; Kekana, C D; Kenye, T E; Khoarai, L P; Kholwane, S E; Khumalo, F E; Khunou, N P; Komphela, B M; Koornhof, G W; Kota-Fredericks, Z A; Kubayi, M T; Landers, L T; Lekgetho, G; Line, H; Lishivha, T E; Luyenge, Z; Maake, J J; Mabasa, X; Mabedla, N R; Mabuza, M C; MacKenzie, G D; Madlala, N M; Mafolo, M V; Magagula, V V; Magama, H T; Magau, K R; Magazi, M N; Magwanishe, G; Mahlangu-Nkabinde, G L; Makhuba, H N; Makhubela-Mashele, L S; Makhubele, Z S; Makwetla, S P; Malgas, H H; Maluleka, H P; Manamela, K B; Manana, M C; Mandela, Z M D; Manganye, J; Manuel, T A; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Martins, B A D; Mashigo, R M; Mashishi, A C; Masilo, J M; Masutha, T M; Mataboge, D K; Mathebe, D H; Mathebe, P M; Mathibela, N F; Matshoba, J M; Maunye, M M; Mavunda, D W; Maziya, A M; Mc Gluwa, J J; Mdakane, M R; Mdladlana, M M S; Mentor, M P; Meshoe, K R J; Mgabadeli, H C; Mjobo, L N; Mkhulusi, N N P; Mlambo, E M; Mlangeni, A; Mmusi, S G; Mnisi, N A; Mohale, M C; Mokoena, A D; Molebatsi, M A; Molewa, B E E; Moloi-Moropa, J C; Morutoa, M R; Moss, L N; Motimele, M S; Motshekga, M A; Motshekga, M S; Mpontshane, A M; Msweli, H S; Mthethwa, E M; Mthethwa, E N; Mtshali, E; Mulder, C P; Mushwana, F F; Muthambi, A F; Nchabeleng, M E; Ndabandaba, L B G; Ndabeni, S T; Ndebele, J S; Ndlovu, V B; Nelson, W J; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngcengwane, N D; Ngcobo, B T; Ngcobo, E N N; Ngele, N J; Ngwenya, W; Ngwenya-Mabila, P C; Nhlengethwa, D G; Njobe, M A A; Nkwinti, G E; November, N T; Ntapane, S Z; Ntuli, Z C; Nyalungu, R E; Nyanda, M F; Nyekemba, E; Oliphant, G G; Oosthuizen, G C; Pandor, G N M; Petersen-Maduna, P; Phaahla, M J; Phaliso, M N; Pilusa- Mosoane, M E; Radebe, B A; Radebe, G S; Radebe, J T; Ramatlhodi, N A; Rantsolase, M A; Saal, G; Scheemann, G D; Segale-Diswai, M J; Selau, G J; Sexwale, T M G; Shiceka, S; Sibanyoni, J B; Sibhida, N N; Sisulu, M V; Sithole, K P; Sithole, S C N; Sizani, P S; Skosana, J J; Smith, V G; Snell, G T; Sogoni, E M; Sonjica, B P; Sonto, M R; Sosibo, J E; Sotyu, M M; Suka, L; Sulliman, E M; Sunduza, T B; Surty, M E; Thabethe, E; Thobejane, S G; Thomson, B; Tinto, B; Tsebe, S R; Tseke, G K; Tsenoli, S L; Tshivhase, T J; Tshwete, P; Tsotetsi, D R; Turok, B; Twala, N M; Vadi, I; Van der Merwe, S C; Van Rooyen, D D; Van Wyk, A; Xaba, P P; Yengeni, L E; Zikalala, C N Z; Zondi, K M; Zulu, B Z.

NOES - 53: Boinamo, G G; Bosman, L L; Coetzee, T W; Davidson, I O; De Freitas, M S F; Du Toit, N D; Duncan, P C; Ellis, M J; Farrow, S B; Fritz, A T; George, D T; James, W G; Kalyan, S V; Kloppers-Lourens, J C; Kohler-Barnard, D; Kopane, S P; Lamoela, H; Lee, T D; Lorimer, J R B; Lotriet, A; Louw, A; Lovemore, A T; Marais, E J; Marais, S J F; Masango, S J; Maynier, D J; Mazibuko, L D; Michael, N W A; Mokgalapa, S; More, E; Morgan, G R; Motau, S C; Mubu, K S; Ollis, I M; Rabie, P J; Rabotapi, M W; Robinson, D; Ross, D; Schmidt, H C; Selfe, J; Shinn, M R; Smiles, D C; Steyn, A; Steyn, A C; Swart, M; Swathe, M M; Van Dalen, P; Van der Linde, J J; Van der Walt, D; Van Dyk, S M; Van Schalkwyk, H C; Waters, M; Wenger, M.

Vote accordingly agreed to.

Vote No 28 - Energy - put.

Declarations of vote:

Chairperson, the DA has welcomed the establishment of the new Department of Energy under Minister Dipuo Peters. The DA has long called for a stand-alone Ministry. We believe that this will facilitate progress and the ability to meet set targets.

However, during the Portfolio Committee on Energy's interaction with the department's budget and strategic plan for the next three years, we expressed certain reservations that the department has promised to address. Amongst them were issues identified by the department that have retarded progress towards the goal to reach the targeted one million solar water heaters in households by 2014.

The Minister has said that this target will be met. The DA will be watching its progress, or the lack thereof, like a hawk. In this regard, I would like to alert the Minister that we are aware of the fact that the target date has somehow shifted from 2013 to 2014, making the five-year term a moving target. This deadline cannot be moved if the demand-side management targets are to be met.

The department has also committed itself to establishing a buying office, an independent sales and marketing office, to break Eskom's monopolistic hold on the buying and selling of electricity in the country and to facilitate the participation of independent power producers in the electricity generation arena. This office should as quickly as possible move out of Eskom, as the Ministry has assured us it would.

The process to produce the Integrated Resource Plan 2, IRP2, seems to be turning sour. The Minister should be aware that we are getting worrying reports that Eskom is hijacking the process for its own narrow interests. This should be stopped as it will negatively impact on the credibility of the report.

This process has not been put in place for the interests of Eskom but for the country's energy security over the next 20 years. We dare not fluff this process through procedural failures. The DA has already made the point that the department's budget is quite stretched, and we welcome the commitment by senior managers to doing more with less. Thus, we support the Budget Vote. [Time expired.]

Hon member Poho, before you speak - and this is nothing personal against you - part of our duties as presiding officers is to protect the decorum of this House. The way you are dressed today is not dignified and honourable like all other hon members are. [Applause.]

In future, when you come to the House, take into consideration its decorum and the respect it deserves in the nation and amongst hon members here. You may proceed with your debate.

Chairperson, the last time I checked, it was acceptable to wear a traditional shirt. I don't know if that has changed.

Hon member, it's obviously open to interpretation. I don't see tradition, although you say you are traditional. Let's be decent and be respectful to the decorum of the House and that's it. Let's not argue about whether you are traditional today or not.

Chairperson, is it acceptable to wear an overall in the House?

I have addressed the matter. But in future people must know that powers are there to throw you out of the House to go and dress appropriately.

I'm not applying those powers now. I am reminding members to respect the decorum of the House and be decent. You may proceed, hon member.

Chairperson, the recent electricity hikes that were imposed on consumers will have far reaching effects and the brunt of this burden will be felt by the poor and the middle class.

Increasingly more people will not be able to afford electricity. For years, corporations paid less for the electricity than it cost to generate it. Now ordinary people must carry the cost.

The issue of Hitachi and Chancellor House has been raised many times in Parliament, but the ruling party is still putting profit before ethical conduct. Cope is also dismayed that only R36 million has been set aside for renewable energy when that is the path to the future.

This department is not earnest about achieving its target of generating 10 000 GWh of electricity from renewable sources by 2013. For these reasons, Cope will not support the Budget Vote.

Chairperson, I have decided to discard colonial traditions, and, therefore, I'm not wearing a tie. Hopefully, you will not kick me out. The ID is forced to rise in objection to the Budget Vote on Energy. We do this because we believe that this department should be taking the lead in setting a progressive agenda for our energy future over the next 20 years.

Instead, what we have witnessed is that the capacity of this department has not been adequately built and it is woefully understaffed. Key priorities like energy efficiency, which should be one of our greatest national priorities, is being driven by a National Energy Efficiency Agency, NEEA, with a staff component of only two people and no money to drive the actual programmes.

The much-needed integrated energy plan, which the department is supposed to have drawn up in terms of the National Energy Act, is also way behind schedule as there was previously no budget allocated to set up the modelling capacity in the department.

Instead, the department is trying to fast-track a second integrated resource plan for the country with very little time being given for public consultation or proper modelling of all the different parameters as stipulated in the National Energy Act.

We cannot develop a plan for our energy future over the next 20 years in such a manner. It is for this reason that the ID feels compelled to object to this Budget Vote until such time as we feel confident that the Department of Energy is sufficiently empowered and committed to developing energy plans and policies that are truly in the best interest of all South Africans. I thank you.

Chairperson, I agree with some of the issues raised by members in terms of underfunding for the department. With regard to the Integrated Resource Plan 1, IRP1, the department briefed us. They apologised to the committee for not informing us on time.

The Integrated Resource Plan 2, IRP2, was supposed to be discussed by the committee in June, but due to the World Cup it has been changed to July. Hon Greyling wrote a letter to me to which I responded and said that we were waiting to put that on the committee's programme. I am sure that he likes to grandstand in any way.

If we are serious about renewable energy in terms of the challenges of climate change, we would support this Budget Vote. We believe that what is in the strategic plan talks exactly to what he is raising. As members, we were able to engage the department. We stated our disagreements with them. At the end of the day, we said that we will do our oversight work and make sure that they deliver according to the strategic plan.

In this regard, as a country we are forced to deal with renewable energy. With this budget we believe that they will try to do what they can. It was said in the committee that they will try to do more with the little money that they have. This is a new department; we need to give them space.

With regard to what the President has mentioned about the Independent Power Projects, IPPs, they are going to deal with that. We hope that we will be able to take them forward and do oversight work on whether or not they have done so. The energy that members have is good, but we must be able to exercise it in the right way. We support the Budget Vote. [Applause.]

Vote agreed to (Congress of the People and Independent Democrats dissenting).

Vote No 29 - Environmental Affairs - put and agreed to.

Vote No 30 - Human Settlements - put and agreed to.

Vote No 31 - Mineral Resources - put.

Declarations of vote:

Chairperson, proceedings at the public hearings of the Portfolio Committee on Mining this morning illustrate exactly why the DA cannot support the budget. The ANC Youth League, represented by Julius Malema, pleaded for the nationalisation of the mining sector.

He furthermore, on behalf of the ANC Youth League - and, by the way, the ANC as well - indicated that this issue had been discussed at the level of the National Executive Committee of the ANC and that a workshop had been held to facilitate the implementation of this process of nationalisation.

Maybe the ANC should indicate to us what's coming. The causes of these extreme and displaced arguments are clear. They emanate from a failure by government to ensure that the Department of Mineral Resources effectively monitors and ensures compliance with the various laws and policies adopted by Parliament.

The failure by the department to ensure implementation of the BEE requirements, affirmative action, the social labour plans required by the Mineral and Petroleum Resources Development Act, and compliance with the Mine Health and Safety Act, has led to a failure of government policy. This, apparently, is also the view of the Portfolio Committee on Mineral Resources which seems to have upheld it; hence the so-called need for supporting the state-owned mining company and the nationalisation of the mines.

It is therefore imperative that the department implements these decisions contained in the Mining Charter, as agreed to by the mining industry, the unions and government. As such, we cannot support the Budget Vote. I thank you. [Applause.]

Chairperson, the ANC definitely supports this Budget Vote. The reasons advanced by the DA for objecting to this Budget Vote are very unclear, because the proceedings today - the public hearings that we convened today - have nothing to do with compliance enforcement by the department. They have nothing to do with this Budget Vote.

The public hearings today are an initial attempt to address serious issues in the country, such as the rising levels of poverty, unemployment and joblessness of our people in the country.

The country has been declared to be the world's wealthiest country in terms of mineral resources, yet the inequality levels are on the rise. Now we are looking at a solution, because it is not sustainable to have mineral wealth that is acknowledged worldwide, but, at the same time, have citizens of the country that continue to be poor. Therefore, let us not use different reasons.

We, in the portfolio committee, including the DA, acknowledge the fact that this department is new and that it has been established within the shortest space of time, to the extent that it had an unqualified audit report from the Auditor-General.

Therefore there are no substantial reasons for this Budget Vote not to be supported. We need to support it. We will come back to deliberate on the establishment of the state-owned mining company and, at that stage, the DA must raise its views. I thank you, Chair. [Applause.]

Mr Chairman, I must apologise, sir. I was so in captivated by the hon Radebe and hon Manuel sitting there eating while the rest of us are so hungry ... [Laughter.] ... that I forgot to stand up, sir, and I apologise. The DA would like its objection to be recorded.

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).

Vote No 32 - Rural Development and Land Reform - put.

Declarations of vote:

Chairperson, the DA is concerned that the government is not fulfilling its constitutional mandate because it is not budgeting adequately for land reform and rural development. The R6,7 billion is too little to fully execute the department's mandate.

The department signed commitments and contracts with landowners worth over R3 billion. It allocated a mere R1,5 billion to the land restitution programme. Effectively, the land restitution programme can only use R800 million to buy farms. The department has shifted its focus from land restitution to land reform and rural development.

The restitution of land rights is a pillar of the Constitution to address land rights issues and, if it is not addressed urgently, it may cause havoc. The DA, therefore, is very concerned that the government is not honouring its commitment to priorities. Rural development and land reform remain on the back burner, and is not one of government's top priorities in terms of budget allocation.

The DA, in its alternative budget, recommended to government that it increase the budget by R3 billion. The government failed to increase the budget. The DA, therefore, will not support the Budget Vote. Thank you. [Applause.]

Chairperson, Cope seriously favours reviewing the current land tenure system during this Medium-Term Strategic Framework period. This must be done through rigorous engagement with all South Africans, so that the tenure system will satisfy the aspirations of all South Africans irrespective of race, gender or class.

The need to prioritise land reform and rural development is obvious. Land is a fundamental national asset. Used well and fairly, land can be a launching pad for the equitable wealth of a nation. It was never by mistake that the primary aim of the conquest of the past was to acquire land. It therefore should surprise no one that land will play a central role in the reversal of such injustices.

Land is not only an asset for food security, but also a deeply emotive issue, as it is part of the self-definition of a people. It is this tightrope that our processes of rural development and land reform must seek to walk.

Cope supports the department in wanting to achieve its objectives, such as aggressively implementing land reform policies, stimulating agricultural production with a view to contributing to food security, promoting rural development, and so on.

It is a fact that our rural poverty is a result of policies that, over centuries, deliberately sought to impoverish our people in order to use them as a source of cheap labour. This fundamental injustice of the past has to be reversed and rural life must be transformed without delay. A proper and meaningful distribution of land must be undertaken at once. The major disgruntlement of the people must be properly and expeditiously addressed.

Lastly, in each area, through the Comprehensive Rural Development Programme, the CRDP, rural communities themselves must become central to their own development. This must be our aim. Cope trusts that the Minister will try to achieve the objectives of this department with single- mindedness and deep passion. Cope will support this Budget Vote. [Time expired.]

Agb Voorsitter, daar is net een ding waaroor ek sekerheid wil h, die DA het netnou met die agb Minister van Polisie baklei, en nou sien ek die agb Minister van Polisie gee vir die agb Ellis sjokolade daar agter u. [Gelag.] Dit is nou amper soos 'n kattegeveg. Ek weet nie of hulle vry of baklei nie! [Gelag.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[Mr P J GROENEWALD: Hon Chairperson, there is only one thing I want certainty about - just now the DA fought with the hon Minister of Police and now I see the hon Minister of Police giving chocolates to the hon Ellis there behind you. [Laughter.] It is almost like a cat fight. I do not know whether they are courting or fighting! [Laughter.]]

Mr Chairman, on a point of order: the hon member of the FF Plus is not telling the truth, sir. The hon Minister said he was going to give me some chocolate and then withdrew it at the last minute, so I didn't get it. [Laughter.]

But I saw you chewing something, so I wonder what you were chewing. [Laughter.]

Mr Chairman, that was with the compliments of the hon Trevor Manuel, who is an outstanding chap and I like him very much indeed. [Laughter.]

Voorsitter, ek het baie respek vir die agb lid, maar hy klink nou soos Horwood na wie daar netnou verwys was. [Gelag.]

Om by die debat uit te kom, ek wil vir die agb Minister s dat grond 'n baie sensitiewe aangeleentheid is. Dit is 'n emosionele aangeleentheid na beide kante, maak nie saak na watter kant toe ons praat nie.

Ek wil graag 'n beroep op u doen: u het in u begrotingsdebat ges u erken die reg op private besit, maar skaars 'n week daarna s u in die media dat u persoonlik saamstem dat die beloftes wat gemaak is in die "struggle" deur die ANC, naamlik dat grond genasionaliseer moet word, ook u persoonlike standpunt is. Agb Minister, in regsterme s ons dis contradictio in terminis. U skep totale verwarring. Die grondeienaars vra, "Maar kan ons die agb Minister vertrou?" Vandag s hy in sy debat dat hy probeer sekerheid skep, maar daarna kom praat hy met 'n ander benadering en in 'n ander taal.

U moet daardie sekerheid skep en ek wil vir die agb Minister s voordat die VF Plus nie daardie sekerheid het nie kan ons u nie in die begroting ondersteun nie. Sorg dat daardie plase wat alreeds toegeken is produktief raak, dan sal dit tot voordeel van Suid-Afrika wees.

Ons sal nie hierdie begrotingspos ondersteun nie. Ek dank u. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[Mr P J GROENEWALD: Chairperson, I have a lot of respect for the hon member, but he now sounds like Horwood to whom reference was made earlier. [Laughter.]

To turn to the debate, I want to tell the hon Minister that land is a very sensitive issue. It is an emotional issue for both sides, it does not matter to which side we are talking to.

I would like to make an appeal to you: during your Budget Vote debate you said that you acknowledge the right to private ownership, but not even a week after that, you said in the media that you personally agree with the promises made by the ANC during the struggle, namely that land should be nationalised, and that this is also your personal viewpoint.

Hon Minister in legal terms we call this contradictio in terminis. You are creating total confusion. The landowners are asking, "But can we trust the hon Minister?" Today, in his debate he is saying that he is trying to create certainty, but after that he is talking with a different approach and in a different language.

You must create that certainty and I want to tell the hon Minister that unless we as the FF Plus have that certainty, we cannot support you in this budget. Ensure that farms that have already been allocated become productive, and then this will be to the advantage of South Africa.

We will not support this Budget Vote. I thank you.]

Chairperson, the ANC supports this budget, as it translates the 2010-11 and 2012-13 strategic plans of the Department of Rural Development and Land Reform into programmes to build vibrant, equitable and sustainable communities in the vast hinterland of South Africa, where the vast majority of our citizens live.

Further, we do so in full confidence that our communities in these areas believe that the ANC-led government leads this department with integrity; unlike the hon member from the FF Plus who claims that the Minister says one thing today and wakes up and says something else tomorrow, simply because he did not get the explanation he was looking for. We don't run the country by scaring people; we run the country by being certain of every step we take.

There is no nationalisation policy, hon member. The Green Paper will explain the processes that the government and the ANC will take in sorting this out - I repeat - in sorting out the smash-and-grab policies of previous regimes, from that of colonialism in 1652 until now.

We will sort this out, because there will be certainty at long last for everybody who holds a piece of paper and calls it his "freehold title". Why? Because today we are calling upon those people who hold that title - ill-begotten title - to come forward so that, once and for all, they have certainty that this document belongs to them and that the piece of land that they hold belongs to them. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Chairperson, I'm thoroughly enjoying myself. We would like to call for a division.

Division demanded. The House divided:

AYES - 216: Abram, S; Adams, P E; Alberts, A D; Baloyi, M R; Bam- Mugwanya, V; Bapela, K O; Bhengu, N R; Bhengu, P; Bikani, F C; Bogopane- Zulu, H I; Booi, M S; Borman, G M; Boshigo, D F; Botha, Y R; Burgess, C V; Buthelezi, M G; Cebekhulu, R N; Chauke, H P; Chikunga, L S; Chohan, F I; Coleman, E M; Cronin, J P; Cwele, S C; De Lille, P; Diale, L N; Dlakude , D E; Dlamini, B O; Dlamini-Zuma, N C; Dlodlo, A; Doidge, G Q M; Dubazana, Z S; Dube, M C; Dudley, C; Dunjwa, M L; Fihla, N B; Fransman, M L; Frolick, C T; Gasebonwe, T M A; Gelderblom, J P; Gigaba, K M N; Gina, N; Godongwana, E; Gololo, C L; Gona, M F; Groenewald, P J; Gumede, D M; Gxowa, N B; Hajaig, F; Hogan, B A; Huang, S-B; Jacobus, L; Jeffery, J H; Joemat-Pettersson, T M; Johnson, M; Kekana, C D; Kenye, T E; Khoarai, L P; Kholwane, S E; Khumalo, F E; Khunou, N P; Komphela, B M; Koornhof, G W; Kota-Fredericks, Z A; Kubayi, M T; Landers, L T; Lekgetho, G; Line, H; Lishivha, T E; Luyenge, Z; Maake, J J; Mabasa, X; Mabedla, N R; Mabuza, M C; MacKenzie, G D; Madlala, N M; Mafolo, M V; Magagula, V V; Magama, H T; Magau, K R; Magazi, M N; Magwanishe, G; Mahlangu-Nkabinde, G L; Makhuba, H N; Makhubela-Mashele, L S; Makhubele, Z S; Makwetla, S P; Malgas, H H; Maluleka, H P; Manamela, K B; Manana, M C; Mandela, Z M D; Manganye, J; Manuel, T A; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Martins, B A D; Mashigo, R M; Mashishi, A C; Masilo, J M; Masutha, T M; Mataboge, D K; Mathebe, D H; Mathebe, P M; Mathibela, N F; Matshoba, J M; Maunye, M M; Mavunda, D W; Maziya, A M; Mc Gluwa, J J; Mdakane, M R; Mdladlana, M M S; Mentor, M P; Meshoe, K R J; Mgabadeli, H C; Mjobo, L N; Mkhulusi, N N P; Mlambo, E M; Mlangeni, A; Mmusi, S G; Mnisi, N A; Mohale, M C; Mokoena, A D; Molebatsi, M A; Molewa, B E E; Moloi-Moropa, J C; Morutoa, M R; Moss, L N; Motimele, M S; Motshekga, M A; Motshekga, M S; Mpontshane, A M; Msweli, H S; Mthethwa, E M; Mthethwa, E N; Mtshali, E; Mulder, C P; Mushwana, F F; Muthambi, A F; Nchabeleng, M E; Ndabandaba, L B G; Ndabeni, S T; Ndebele, J S; Ndlovu, V B; Nelson, W J; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngcengwane, N D; Ngcobo, B T; Ngcobo, E N N; Ngele, N J; Ngwenya, W; Ngwenya-Mabila, P C; Nhlengethwa, D G; Njobe, M A A; Nkwinti, G E; November, N T; Ntapane, S Z; Ntuli, Z C; Nyalungu, R E; Nyanda, M F; Nyekemba, E; Oliphant, G G; Oosthuizen, G C; Pandor, G N M; Petersen-Maduna, P; Phaahla, M J; Phaliso, M N; Pilusa- Mosoane, M E; Radebe, B A; Radebe, G S; Radebe, J T; Ramatlhodi, N A; Rantsolase, M A; Saal, G; Scheemann, G D; Segale-Diswai, M J; Selau, G J; Sexwale, T M G; Shiceka, S; Sibanyoni, J B; Sibhida, N N; Sisulu, M V; Sithole, K P; Sithole, S C N; Sizani, P S; Skosana, J J; Smith, V G; Snell, G T; Sogoni, E M; Sonjica, B P; Sonto, M R; Sosibo, J E; Sotyu, M M; Suka, L; Sulliman, E M; Sunduza, T B; Surty, M E; Thabethe, E; Thobejane, S G; Thomson, B; Tinto, B; Tsebe, S R; Tseke, G K; Tsenoli, S L; Tshivhase, T J; Tshwete, P; Tsotetsi, D R; Turok, B; Twala, N M; Vadi, I; Van der Merwe, S C; Van Rooyen, D D; Van Wyk, A; Xaba, P P; Yengeni, L E; Zikalala, C N Z; Zondi, K M; Zulu, B Z.

NOES - 53: Boinamo, G G; Bosman, L L; Coetzee, T W; Davidson, I O; De Freitas, M S F; Du Toit, N D; Duncan, P C; Ellis, M J; Farrow, S B; Fritz, A T; George, D T; James, W G; Kalyan, S V; Kloppers-Lourens, J C; Kohler-Barnard, D; Kopane, S P; Lamoela, H; Lee, T D; Lorimer, J R B; Lotriet, A; Louw, A; Lovemore, A T; Marais, E J; Marais, S J F; Masango, S J; Maynier, D J; Mazibuko, L D; Michael, N W A; Mokgalapa, S; More, E; Morgan, G R; Motau, S C; Mubu, K S; Ollis, I M; Rabie, P J; Rabotapi, M W; Robinson, D; Ross, D; Schmidt, H C; Selfe, J; Shinn, M R; Smiles, D C; Steyn, A; Steyn, A C; Swart, M; Swathe, M M; Van Dalen, P; Van der Linde, J J; Van der Walt, D; Van Dyk, S M; Van Schalkwyk, H C; Waters, M; Wenger, M.

Vote accordingly agreed to.

Vote No 33 - Science and Technology - put and agreed to.

Vote No 34 - Tourism - put.

Declarations of vote:

Mr Chairperson, while the DA supports this budget, we do so with reservations. The total amount allocated by the Treasury is insufficient for this department's main task, which is to market South Africa to the world's tourists.

Tourism generates considerable profits for the fiscus. The marketing initiatives of South African tourism helped contribute R173,9 billion to the economy last year. For the past six years, this ANC government has encouraged the hospitality industry to invest untold millions of rands in expanding their operations to ensure they could capitalise on the 2010 Fifa World Cup.

Tourism, they told us, would be the major money spinner this year and beyond, but at this crucial moment, this government has cut SA Tourism's budget by 20% this year, and during the Medium-Term Expenditure Framework, by a total of R160 million, funds previously earmarked to exploit the positive exposure from the World Cup. Any first-year marketing student will tell you that this is precisely the time when SA Tourism should be increasing its marketing spend.

To properly resource SA Tourism would require an amount less than one-tenth of one per cent of our current national Budget. South Africa can easily afford this when it is viewed against the potential revenue this sector is expected to generate. We urge the department, as we did during the Budget debate, to reprioritise its inadequate allocation of funds to ensure SA Tourism is properly funded. This is essential if the industry is to get its deserved return on World Cup-inspired investment.

Hon Chairperson, the ANC supports the budget of the Department of Tourism and in doing so, notes concerns around the reduction of the budget in line with our national response to the global recession, and believes that the exposure from the 2010 Fifa World Cup will more than compensate for this. Therefore it is confident that the industry will generate more jobs, more sustainable livelihoods, particularly in the rural areas, thus increasing their share of growth in the GDP for the benefit of all. The ANC supports this Budget Vote. I thank you.

Vote agreed to.

Vote No 35 - Trade and Industry-put.

Declarations of vote:

Chairperson, the biggest issue in South Africa is unemployment. The great job losses during the recent financial crisis have been devastating. However, it would be unfair to blame this unemployment solely on the department. This department has the ability as well as the resources to address this issue on a large scale. There are millions of underemployed people walking the streets reduced to begging. These are people with some sort of skill that can be used within the industrial sector.

In the Minister's words, the programmes of his department must interface with the range of social and economic development strategies across all spheres of government. Therefore the R2,4 billion training lay-off scheme must now become active to start employing those who lost their jobs during the recession.

In addition, while Cope is supportive of the help being offered to companies in distress, we want the Minister to ensure that these companies, indeed, have long-term prospects and are therefore deserving of support. One area in which we can certainly emulate the Asian markets is in stimulating domestic sales by offering buyers subsidies for the purchase of durable consumer products fully manufactured in South Africa.

Cope wants to encourage government to provide for eco-housing, co- ownership, co-housing and modular housing to keep the construction sector busy. We should strive to build a developmental state which is democratic, people-driven and people-centred. Cope will support the Vote. Thank you.

Chair, I would like to say that it is a pity that the hon member from Cope has been absent from the portfolio committee meetings. I see they are nearly all absent here now, for some reason I do not know. We can only speculate.

Let me say right away that this Department of Trade and Industry is one of the most dynamic and innovative of all the departments. They have come forward with an industrial policy programme which should make a huge difference to our industrial capacity. Can one ask the question: What would South Africa be like without a substantial manufacturing industry? That is the job of this department.

They have launched a programme, and they are doing everything they can to get it moving. So, it is not a welfare department, and therefore subsidising consumer goods is the wrong approach. Subsidies can go to the manufacturing industry where they innovate, build new capacity, and make South Africa proud. We really do not want subsidies for consumers. That is the way of a welfare state, which is not the direction that we want to take. The ANC supports this particular Vote. Thank you.

Vote agreed to.

Vote No 36 - Transport-put.

Declarations of vote:

Chair, I think next year we are going to reverse the order of these Votes and start from Vote 37 upwards. When our study group looked at this department's Vote for 2010, we were in two minds as to whether to support it or not. Regretably, the consensus was that we oppose it and wait and see whether some of the positive signals that the Minister made in his budget speech become a reality.

It is now a well-known fact that the road infrastructure has been underfunded for many years now, resulting in many of our roads being in a state of disrepair. This has happened despite the continued efforts by the DA to get National Treasury to increase its allocation to the department through the creation of a dedicated road maintenance fund from the general fuel levy.

Now that this fund is a reality, it is incumbent upon the Minister to ensure a regular supply of funds flowing into it in order to gradually eliminate the backlogs which stand between R75 billion and R100 billion, and, at the same time, to improve access to basic services for many rural communities. The promised R3 billion injection over three years is a good start, but, clearly, it is below the needs.

The same can be said of our rail networks and rolling stock. Our economy cannot grow on the foundation of a deteriorating infrastructure. Massive investments are needed and where applicable and appropriate the private sector must be included to alleviate the fiscal drain that would result if these backlogs are funded solely from state coffers.

Public transport subsidisation is a necessity in a developing country such as ours, and with the massive World Cup spend in this area over the past three years, we have now been left with more mouths to feed in the way of Bus Rapid Transit systems, BRTs, buses and the recapitalised taxi fleet. Looking for additional funds is therefore very important if we are not going to go cap in hand again next year. So, the department must come up with a model that looks at subsidising the commuter as opposed to the system presently in use which is open to inefficiencies and abuse.

Finally, a serious look must be taken at the transfers going out into the hands of some of the department's agencies, which pay huge salary bills, and give little back in return, yet ask for more and more funds each year to undertake their mandates. Put these few things right, Minister, and you will get our support, but until then, you will have to live with the DA opposing your Vote, once more.

Chairperson, it is interesting for the DA to agree with the ANC in terms of the Road Maintenance Fund. It is an initiative of the ANC, the problem was identified by the ANC, we initiated that debate and we are implementing that programme.

Thina-ke singuKhongolose asikhulumeli ukujabulisa abantu, silungisa okudinga ukulungiswa futhi sincome okwenziwe. Uma sibuka isabiwozimali zoMnyango Wezokuthutha sibhekisisa ukuhambela kwezidingo zezokuthutha nesabiwozimali esinikezwa uMnyango. Uma isabelo sisincane siyasho ukuthi sincane isabelo futhi izidingo zinkulu.

Sibuka ukusetshenziswa kwemali ngendlela okuyiyo, ukuhleleka ngendlela ehambisanayo kwezinhlelo zoMnyango nezezinhlaka ezisebenza ngaphansi koMnyango, ukuthuthuka kwezimpilo zabantu nokwezokunotha ngenxa yezinhlelo nokusetshenziswa kwemali uMnyango Wezokuthutha. Uhlelo lukaKhongolose kwezokuthutha luqonde ukwehlisa imali yokuhamba kwabantu nezimpahla, ukwehlisa isikhathi sokuhamba, ukuxhumanisa okokuhamba ngomgwaqo, ngezitimela nangezindiza ukuze kwenziwe ukuthi ezokuthutha ziphephe futhi zithembeke.

Uhlelo lwezokuthutha kulelizwe lucace bha njengezinqe zeselele, ngakho uKhongolose akanaso isizathu sokungaseseki isabiwomali soMnyango Wezokuthutha. Isiphukuphuku kuphela esingebone ukuthi ungakanani umsebenzi owenziwe uhulumeni kaKhongolose, owokwakha izikhumulo zezindiza, imigwaqo, imizila yezitimela nako konke okwenziwe uMnyango Wezokuthutha ukulungiselela u-2010 okuyosala kuyifa labantu baseNingizimu Afrika iminyaka ezayo. UKhongolose uyaseseka isabiwomali soMnyango Wezokuthutha. [Ihlombe.] (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)

[We as the ANC do not speak to please people; we correct what needs to be corrected and appreciate what has been done. If we look at the budget of the Department of Transport, we look at its service delivery and the budget allocated to it. If the allocation is too small, we say so and that more needs to be done.

We look at whether the money is spent accordingly, and that the organisation is in line with the structures that work under it. We also look at socioeconomic development brought about by the programmes and the way in which the Department of Transport spends its money. The ANC's programme for the transport industry is aimed at reducing money and time spent on travelling in respect of people and goods, and to integrate road transport, trains and aeroplanes in order to make transport safe and reliable.

The way in which the transport system of this country operates is very clear, therefore the ANC has no reason not to support the Budget Vote of the Department of Transport. Only a foolish person will not see how much work has been done by the government of the ANC, with regard to the building of airports, roads, and railway lines. This the Department of Transport has done in preparation for the 2010 Soccer World Cup which will remain a legacy for the people of South Africa in some years to come. The ANC supports the Budget Vote for the Department of Transport. [Applause.]]

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).

Vote No 37-Water Affairs-put.

Declarations of vote:

Chair, it goes without saying that the water sector is underfunded in South Africa. That is not the reason the DA opposes this budget. There are several other departments which could do with more funds. The problem with the Department of Water Affairs is that its outcomes are poor, its long-term planning is abysmal, and its ability to enforce the provisions of the National Water Act is weak.

There is a skills crisis in this department, and no discernable plan to fill the vacancies, despite the commitments of the Water Sector Leadership Group. Over 200 posts for civil engineers are vacant, which is about two thirds of the full complement needed. Notably, the director-general of this department has been on special leave, on full pay, for more than 10 months now, with no end in sight.

While the acid mine drainage below the city of Johannesburg rises by 15 metres a month and while acid mine drainage is already decanting into the Tweelopiespruit, the department has, at best, come up with short-term solutions, albeit very tenuous ones, to deal with the disaster that acid mine drainage will cause in Gauteng and the surrounding provinces. Despite the first warnings of acid mine drainage problems emerging more than a decade ago, there is still no acceptable response to it. Added to that, more than 100 mines in South Africa are still operating without water licences and hence, are in transgression of the National Water Act.

While we welcome the earmarked funds for enforcement and compliance, and eagerly await the results, it is simply woeful that there are only 14 accredited Blue Scorpions in South Africa. The number of transgressions by municipalities when it comes to the discharge of sewage into the environment is substantial and growing. There is no doubt that we are facing localised water quality crises. Madibeng municipality and the sewer that the Hartbeespoort Dam has become is just one example.

The enforcement protocols by this department are weak and must be improved, but that will require political will. Who will step up to the plate? We will see over the coming year. The DA does not support this Budget Vote.

Chairperson, it is obvious that the ANC supports the Budget Vote of this important commodity, water, which gives life to the people of South Africa, including the DA.

We acknowledge the challenges raised by the DA, but the DA knows very well that there are mechanisms that have been put in place by the department to address some of these challenges. On the issue of the director-general's suspension ...

... lithanda izindaba leli lungu ... [... this member is inquisitive ...]

... and knows very well that we did get a progress report from the Minister a month ago and we know exactly how far that report is at this moment.

Ukuthanda izindaba nokuthanda ukubukwa ... [That is inquisitiveness and wanting to show off ...]

On the issue of the vacancies in the department, you know, Chair, as well as we do that the challenge we are faced with in that department is that of scarce skills: design engineers, construction engineers, technical engineers, and so forth. The problem that we are faced with is for these vacancies.

The responses that we get ...

... ngenxa yengcindezelo kolwabo uhlangothi ... [... because of the pressure on their side ... ]

... are people that were advantaged to have those courses in previous years. It is white males who apply for these vacancies. I do not know if there is a better word to describe white males. In respect of disadvantaged communities, that is the graduates from our own community, the department took a decision that they are going to invite all these graduates into the department so that there will be shadow engineers within the department ...

... basebenze namaxhegu ahleli phaya angafuni ukuphuma ... [... who would be working with older people who do not want to retire ... ]

... so that they should transfer their skill to these young, previously disadvantaged students. [Time expired.] The ANC supports this Budget Vote.

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance dissenting).

Schedule put and agreed to.