Hon Deputy President, to what extent has the government developed programmes that capacitate ...
Hon member, I asked the Deputy President. [Laughter.] Hon Deputy President ... [Laughter.] Order, hon members! Order!
Hon speaker, hon members, there are a number of government programmes aimed at capacitating and empowering households and communities to take themselves out of poverty. Our programme relating to education is one example.
However, as a co-ordinated programme in the fight against poverty, government has developed the War on Poverty Campaign, as well as a comprehensive antipoverty strategy. The former is being scaled up to cover 1 128 of the most deprived municipal wards of the country by 2014, whilst the latter is currently undergoing consultation in the National Economic Development and Labour Council, Nedlac, after receiving support from the National Antipoverty Civil Society Colloquium held in December 2009.
The antipoverty strategy focuses on the following nine pillars that seek to capacitate and empower households and communities to take themselves out of poverty with the help of government and its social partners: one, the creation of economic opportunities; two, investment in human resources; three, the provision of income security to the most vulnerable members of society; four, the provision of social and individual asset accumulation, such as housing, land, working capital and infrastructure; five, environmental sustainability; six, the provision of a social wage, such as subsidised electricity, water and sanitation services; seven, the provision of preventative and curative health care; eight, social inclusion; and nine, good governance.
It can be seen from the nine pillars that the antipoverty strategy uses most of the existing government programmes as key instruments. What is different about the antipoverty strategy is that it identifies the most deprived wards in the country using the Provincial Indices of Multiple Deprivation which have mapped all poverty areas in each province. The strategy profiles the communities and households that live in those deprived wards; collects and stores such community and household profiles in the national database; develops referrals that it sends to national and provincial departments and social partners to address the needs of those households and communities; advises national and provincial departments to develop service delivery plans that should be included in the municipal integrated development plans; and monitors and verifies the impact of service delivery performed by departments on the progress and graduation of households and communities out of poverty.
The War on Poverty programme was piloted in 2008 to 2009 by covering a ward in each province. Cabinet in May 2009 called for the scaling up of the programme to cover a total of 1 128 of the most deprived wards or a third of all the wards in the country by 2014, with an estimated three million households and an estimated 15 million people who live in extreme poverty. I thank you for your attention. [Applause.]
Thank you, hon Speaker. Hon Deputy President, is progress being made in forging integration between the state, private capital and other forms of social ownership in order to eliminate poverty and foster shared growth? Thank you.
Yes, hon member, part of the approach is to funnel a co-ordinated menu of services to empower communities and families who are indeed in affected wards. This programme was debated and discussed extensively and endorsed at the civil society colloquium and, as I have stated, is now been processed through Nedlac. Thank you.
Hon Speaker, for a moment, when the hon Khumalo stood up, I thought there had been another Cabinet reshuffle, but I'm glad that there hasn't been a reshuffle. [Laughter.]
Mr Deputy President, thank you very much for the response. Mr Deputy President, we currently have roughly 14 million people who claim some sort of social benefit or welfare in this country. I'm sure you would agree with me, sir, when I say that this number is both extremely high and possibly not economically sustainable in the medium to long term.
You have, sir, enumerated some examples of how government develops programmes and is assisting the poor, but I would like to know, hon Deputy President, if what we are doing - if I may use the old adage - is teaching our citizens to fish rather than giving them fish? Because, as we drive through rural areas in particular, Mr Deputy President, you would note that even subsistence agricultural activity is becoming something of the past. We don't see it.
We urgently need to see more self-help and self-reliant communities developed. I'm sure, Mr Deputy President, Mr Speaker and members, that we hosted a very successful Fifa World Cup, which was the result of a concerted effort. We need a similar resolve now. Thank you.
Speaker, I would very much like to thank the hon Singh. Yes, indeed, the 13 million people who depend on welfare grants are too many. I think the aim of the antipoverty approach is to reduce that number by getting more people to eke out a living on their own without being dependent on social grants. I could mention many examples of people whose lives were changed through this programme but, on a much larger scale, the rural development Ministry is also attending to those communities, particularly in the rural areas, who need assistance in how to till the soil, who need tractors, seeds, and so on.
In this way, we believe, we will be able to not only reduce the number of those who are dependent on social grants, but also improve food security. That's the main thrust of all of these co-ordinated efforts. Thank you.
Thank you, Speaker. Deputy President, while we appreciate what government has done to capacitate our people through the development programmes to which you have alluded, we nevertheless believe that government can do more.
An area which government needs to give attention to is the facilitation of access to microfinance in the form of small loans to those who need some capital to start their own businesses. So, what I want to know from the Deputy President is whether government can help to facilitate these small loans without collateral and at subsidised interest rates on behalf of qualifying poor people. Thank you.
Speaker, I would like to thank the hon Meshoe. I agree that government can do more and we are indeed pulling out all stops to try to do more.
Concerning access to micro finance, I can say that there are a number of funding agencies that address precisely this need for microfinance loans that can be accessed by communities and households without the collateral that is demanded by commercial banks. There are such dedicated agencies. As you know, in most communities people have stokvels, burial societies and so on. On a small scale, they are already, in a way, practising the management of loans and repayments. So, indeed, the Mzansi account was opened precisely to cater for these kinds of people.
The fourth chamber in Nedlac, the community chamber, pushed very hard for the opening of the Mzansi account to ensure that even those who can save very little should be able to do so.
Therefore, they are already participating in the money economy and the microfinancing of whatever projects. In fact, the agencies to which I have alluded also take care of assisting with training and the putting together of proposals if people want to engage or improve their small-scale business activities and so on. Thank you.
Thank you, hon Speaker. Hon Deputy President, thank you for the response that you have just given us.
Do you agree that the National Development Agency, the NDA, is not fulfilling its mandate to eradicate poverty and its causes? The 77 projects funded by the NDA only managed to create 2 444 direct job opportunities for poor household families and 8 005 indirect opportunities within communities, with a value of R95 million, when we are faced with six million unemployed people in our country.
According to the Polokwane resolutions, the ANC would make sure that poor people graduated out of poverty. When will this government start to realise that only quality education and the creation of sustainable jobs will enable people to graduate out of poverty? [Applause.]
Speaker, I would like to thank the hon Kopane very much. No, indeed, as government we agree with you that quality education is the main equaliser in society. But, of course, given the fact that education itself is acquired over an extended period of time, we can't take a view that is, in a sense, sequential, meaning that we start off with education and leave everything else. We can't do so because the needy are needy here and now and today.
Therefore, whatever intervention is required has to be made to sustain those who are no longer trainable and no longer able to go back to school, and so on.
On Saturday, I was in Nkomazi in Mpumalanga, in a very poor area that is also a catchment area for people who live in Mozambique and Swaziland and who walk in and out of that area, and so on. I came across the mayor who shared with me an account of one gentleman who lives all by himself in a house. The roof and the walls of this house have collapsed. This gentleman, instead of doing something about the collapsed shelter, dug a hole like a chicken. At night he creeps underneath this roof without walls that is almost resting on the ground, and in the morning he creeps out and goes drinking.
So, there are those kinds of cases that are, in a sense, real welfare cases. They are beyond repair. That gentleman can't be taken to any training institution; he can't be assisted in that fashion. But we agree with you that quality education is the main equaliser. Whilst we are doing everything else to ensure that quality education is accessible, we also, in the interim unfortunately, have to take care of even those hopeless cases. Thank you.
Government's position on demands by Tibetans for greater autonomy
14. Mr K S Mubu (DA) asked the Deputy President:
(1) What is the Government's position on the demands by Tibetans for greater autonomy from Chinese rule;
(2) whether the Government will support Tibet's demand in the spirit of ubuntu; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details? NO3712E
Hon Speaker and hon Mubu, South Africa adopted the "One China" policy in 1998. This position was formalised through the Memorandum of Understanding between the Government of South Africa and the Government of the People's Republic of China on the Establishment of Diplomatic Relations, signed on 30 December 1998. This position is also consistent with international law and diplomatic practice.
The "One China" policy is an international principle, namely that there is one China and that mainland China, Tibet, Hong Kong, Macau and Taiwan are all part of China. [Applause.] This position is also recognised by the United Nations. I thank you. [Applause.]
Mr Speaker, the hon Mubu is ill and I am asking the follow- up question.
Yes, please go ahead, hon member.
Thank you. Mr Deputy President, the November 2008 Memorandum on Genuine Autonomy for the Tibetan People is the basis on which the people of Tibet are basing their request for autonomy. It is not a call for independence or separation, but rather a middle-way approach to secure autonomy for the Tibetan people within the scope of the Constitution of the People's Republic of China.
Deputy President, given that this memorandum has been presented to South Africa's Department of International Relations and Co-operation in that the People's Republic of China has recognised the Tibetan nationality as one of the 55 minority nationalities in China, would South Africa not consider following the resolution of the European parliament, the codes of the United Nations and the United States of America to encourage both sides to engage in substantive discussions in an effort to secure genuine autonomy for the Tibetan people within the scope of the Constitution of the People's Republic of China? If yes, what would your intended plan of action be, and if not, why not?
Hon Speaker, the position of South Africa is that wherever there are national conflicts, we encourage people of those countries to engage in dialogue in order to find a resolution to their challenges. This also applies to China. China has 56 nationalities. As I understand the facts, so far the Dalai Lama has been in contact with the government of China more than 10 times. We are quite confident that a resolution will be found within the understanding that China is one integrated country and that Tibet is an integral part of China. It is not for us to support the separation of Tibet from China, because, as I said in my initial response, China includes Hong Kong, Macau and Taiwan as part of one integrated China.
Within that context, our position is that, indeed, the Chinese government and Tibet, as an autonomous authority, must continue to have dialogue and engage with each other until they find a solution. Thank you.
Mr Deputy President, through you, Mr Speaker, this issue is not about the "One China" policy. It is about human rights and human rights violations. There have been extensive human rights violations in Tibet. There was the kidnapping of the Panchen Lama, which is the most famous child kidnapping case in history. There have been extensive violations throughout the world, and the ANC government is not responding. And now, Mr Deputy President, there are no negotiations and there have not been negotiations. There is no statement from the South African government that I or anyone else is aware of that encourages China to negotiate. The negotiations broke down right after the Olympic Games. Before then, they were set up as a showcase.
The question, Mr Deputy President, through you, Mr Speaker, is that when we say never, never again, do we mean never, never again in South Africa or anywhere else in the world? If we mean the latter, where are the condemnations of the human rights abuses in Tibet, in the Democratic Republic of Congo, in Iran, in East Timor to which the South African government sold weapons, and everywhere else where human rights violations take place?
I urge, through your leadership, Mr Deputy President, the government to rise to the challenge to become the human rights conscience of Africa and perhaps the world. Thank you. [Time expired.] [Applause.]
Thank you very much, hon Speaker. Hon Ambrosini, basically you were not asking a follow-up question, but referring to a different issue of human rights all over the world. I don't know what is expected of me, hon Speaker.
You are correct, hon Deputy President.
Well, we regard ourselves as a country that has a Bill of Rights and a Constitution which enjoin us to respect and promote human rights. Now, I don't understand what the hon Ambrosini expects of us beyond that.
Thank you, Speaker. Arising from your response, hon Deputy President, will the government be using South Africa's seat on the United Nation Security Council to address human rights violations, particularly the issue of human rights aggressions that occurred or are alleged to have occurred in Tibet, as well as support ...? Well, you have already mentioned the issue of autonomy.
Secondly, hon Deputy President, did the South African government in any way recognise the Nobel Peace Prize award to imprisoned writer Liu Xiaobo, who stands out for his support for Tibet and the Tibetan government in exile and who has been described as China's conscience and a courageous advocate for democracy and human rights in China? Will the government be joining other governments in calling for his immediate release? Thank you.
Thank you, hon Swart. Regarding the role of South Africa on the UN Security Council, as I understand it, there is a Human Rights Commission of the United Nations which is where human rights issues are dealt with. The Security Council deals with security issues that confront the world. I think we will proceed within that understanding in participating and making a meaningful contribution within the UN Security Council.
With regard to the question on the Chinese prisoner who has been conferred the Nobel Peace Prize, that is a reality. He has been conferred that prize and the whole world recognises that, because all human rights laureates are recognised by the entire world, including South Africa. We can't be the ones who undermine that honour. It is an honour that is accorded to all across the world, but the selection committee in Oslo follows its own criteria and honours those who it believes are deserving.
The actual issues of the gentleman's imprisonment and so on is a matter I will not go into. Thank you. [Interjections.]
Order, hon members! Thank you, Deputy President. Please take your seat.
Thank you, Mr Speaker. Mr Deputy President, I wish to reiterate that the Tibetans are not seeking independence or separation; they are looking for genuine autonomy which is compatible with the principles of autonomy in the Constitution of the People's Republic of China. The Tibetan nationality lives in one contiguous area on the Tibetan plateau. They have lived there for years and are therefore indigenous. The main aim is to preserve culture and language. I have the Memorandum of Understanding which I would like to forward to you.
I would like to go on to the second part of the question posed to you in the spirit of ubuntu, sir. The Dalai Lama was denied a visa in 2008 when he was requested to attend a meeting of the Nobel Peace Prize laureates. Will you, sir, assure this House that he will be granted a visa should he wish to visit this country at any time - perhaps next year when the City of Cape Town offers him the key of freedom to the city?
Thank you very much, hon Kalyan. As I understand the point of impasse in the negotiations between the Dalai Lama and the government of China, it centres not so much on the issue of autonomy, but on the issue that the government of China is expected to withdraw all its law enforcement and troops from Tibet, and all known Tibetan natives who have lived there for centuries should be relocated. The government of China says that won't happen.
However, Tibet is recognised as an autonomous, integral part of China. That is why we say that they must continue with discussions until they have a common understanding. This is not a case of secession, as it were, but a case of autonomy. And we believe that they can very easily find a resolution to that dispute.
As I understand the spirit of ubuntu, by definition it simply means "You are because I am". That's what it means. I don't know how it becomes a factor in how applications for passports are processed. [Laughter.] I really don't understand how the connection comes in, because anybody who seeks to travel to any country applies for a visa and, in our country, Home Affairs processes that application. I don't see how that must be influenced by the spirit of ubuntu. Thank you. [Applause.]
Government's position regarding preparations for referendum in Sudan
15. Dr G W Koornhof (ANC) asked the Deputy President:
What is the Government's position with regard to the preparations for the referendum in Sudan on 9 January 2011?