Hon Deputy Speaker, once the determination has been made on how many of the outstanding claims are on agricultural land, the department will be in a position to specify how much of the land will contribute to the 30% target. Thank you.
Madam Deputy Speaker, with regard to government's target of 30% for productive farmland to be transferred to black owners by 2014, surely the most important central plank of this policy should be an urgent and comprehensive audit of state land or land which is owned by the state, especially given the fact that the department is now engaged in the process of aggressively acquiring more farmland as part of the Land Reform Programme, which at this stage is of course all but stillborn. What is the Minister going to do to ensure that this crucial audit process begins and that it is completed as soon as possible so that at the very least, the people of this country can finally know just how much land is in the hands of the government, especially given some of the unsubstantiated and, frankly, irresponsible remarks which have emerged from the leadership of the ANC with regard to the issue of foreign landownership. Thank you.
Deputy Speaker, firstly, there is already a joint task team between Public Works and our department working on this question. Secondly, I think it is not correct for the hon member to say that statements which are made by the ANC are irresponsible with regard to foreign landownership. I think all of us as South Africans have a duty and responsibility to ensure that we look after the assets that belong to this nation, whether you are in the opposition or in the governing party. Thank you. [Applause.]
Thank you, Deputy Speaker. We as the ANC undertook to push back the frontiers of poverty in the Polokwane Resolutions by enabling our people to have access to productive agricultural land. Policies such as the willing buyer, willing seller have slowed down the achievement of that target. My question is: What are the department's plans to address policy constraints that have negatively affected the achievement of the 30% target, on the one hand? On the other hand, how will we as government give effect to the Polokwane resolution in finding a new approach to land reform? I thank you.
Hon Deputy Speaker, the Polokwane resolution is very extensive. However, with regard to the willing buyer, willing seller model, it is clear. It says that it doesn't work. It is not the first one to say this. The Land Summit of 2005 made the same determination, that the willing buyer, willing seller model doesn't work. That is why we have reduced the three-tier system that we are proposing. On 24 March this year we spoke here in the House and proposed this as a substitute. But this will not be done entirely because we can't do away entirely with the willing buyer, willing seller model. We have to find a mechanism of tempering its effect because its effect is to raise the price of land. This is because there is one government that has a social responsibility and there are sellers of land that have a profit responsibility. So, these two don't mix. We have to find a way of tempering this relationship. Thank you. [Applause.]
Thank you, Deputy Speaker and the Minister. Minister, arising from your reply, I just want to get absolute clarity on the issue of land, particularly the restitution claims. We were informed the last time that there were about 4 000 outstanding claims. I see that on the Order Paper it is indicated that there are 3 852 outstanding claims. I just want to get clarity on whether there are 4 000 outstanding claims, and if it is so, what is the programme that is in place to complete this and at what cost? What is the estimation, or guesstimate, if you like, in terms of the budget that we can begin to look at, and when can we get those figures? Thank you.
Hon member, there is a big challenge with regard to the details of the actual number of outstanding claims. The 4 000 figure is a figure which we found in the department. But we then set up a task team to look at the actual figure across provinces. We have five teams now that are working through the provinces. They are led by directors-general to make sure that when we make this statement in future, we are sure that this is the correct figure because the figures that come out tend to change - the next time we will have 4 000 and another time we will have something even as high as 7 000. So, we are not very, very sure.
And this relates to the second part of the question, with regard to how much is really outstanding. In due course, we think over the next two months or so, we will be able to have a clear determination on both questions because of the task teams which are working in the various provinces. Thank you, hon Deputy Speaker.
Hon Minister, there is something I have been struggling to understand. You have just mentioned that you don't have the exact number of land claims outstanding. If I look at the question that was asked by the hon Groenewald on the number of projects, land and hectares, this is the question we have been asking in the portfolio committee since last year. So, basically you don't know anything. You don't know how much land was transferred; you don't know how much it cost; and you don't know much is outstanding. But you know one thing. The thing that you do know is that the willing buyer, willing seller doesn't work.
So, hon Minister, can you please tell me - you yourself, sir - whether the departmental staff are inflating prices. Farmers ask for R3 000 per hectare. But when it comes to your office, the price is R30 000 per hectare. So, the price was inflated somewhere in between. What method did you use to establish that the willing buyer, willing seller is not working?
Deputy Speaker, firstly, I just want to know whether the hon member got the information that she is giving from us. It is not as if that R35 000 ... [Interjections.] We actually did the work. Secondly, it is not the department's officials that are involved in this. Yes, we said there could be elements that led to this, for example, fraud.
But there is also the problem of valuation. This is because here in South Africa we don't have a curb on the price of land in terms of valuations, and that is a problem. If we could get a valuation price that says R35 000 per hectare and then go to a farmer who says the price is R4 750 per hectare, that should tell us that there is a problem between the valuation and the farmer, who would not have gained anything between the R4 750 and the R35 000. That then means that there is something wrong here. That is why we are proposing and introducing ... [Interjections.]
Order, hon members! Please!
They should be worried about this one, hon Deputy Speaker, because they own the land.
That is why we are proposing a land valuer-general for the country to make sure that we set norms and standards with regard to the price of land. That is what is going to come before the House. That is because we can't have a situation in our country where the vast majority of our people do not own land. Their own government cannot access land because prices get inflated by valuers who are not controlled whatsoever. Thank you, hon Deputy Speaker. [Applause.]
Particulars regarding (i) progress of training lay-off scheme and (ii) jobs saved and created, under departmental Framework Agreement
242. Mr Z C Ntuli (ANC) asked the Minister of Economic Development:
With reference to the implementation of his department's Framework Agreement, (a) what has been the progress of the training lay-off scheme and (b) how many jobs have been (i) saved and (ii) created?