Deputy Chair, members of the National Council of Provinces, the Independent Police Investigative Directorate Bill, together with the Civilian Secretariat for Police Service Bill placed before this House, form an important part of our approach to policing and the type of force we envisage and wish to move towards.
We once again wish to re-emphasise that as the ANC government and current police administration, we have committed ourselves to actively combating crime, including serious and violent crime, by being tougher on criminals and organised syndicates. However, we have always emphasised that this tough stance on crime must be balanced by our philosophy that policing must also be oriented towards having respect for human rights, being community centred, and being biased in favour of the weak and the safety needs of society.
These two pieces of legislation seek to establish and put in place mechanisms that will ensure that the rule of law is upheld at all material times, even by the law enforcement agencies themselves. Therefore, this approach is a far cry from the alleged militarisation approach that had been bandied about by some in our society.
The Bills were concurrently introduced in Parliament. These two Bills speak to our commitment to civilian oversight of the police. The issue of civilian oversight of the police is not just a mere rhetorical slogan on our part, but is fundamental to our policing approach.
The fact that we have introduced these Bills before introducing other pieces of legislation further confirms the seriousness with which we value this function. This seriousness affirms our view that this government and Ministry of Police do not have the desire for a police state, neither is there the likelihood of this country moving towards a such state at any point.
In changing the focus and the name of the Independent Complaints Directorate, ICD, to the Independent Police Investigative Directorate, Ipid, we are sending out a clear message that the new body will not just focus on processing complaints but will also emphasise developing a strong investigative capacity. We also seek to investigate and substantiate systemic defects in policing as well as general corruption.
This draft policy drew on the comprehensive guidance given by the White Paper as well as on past ICD experiences and reports emanating from Parliament regarding ICD functions. The Independent Police Investigative Directorate Bill before you not only changes the name of the ICD to the Independent Police Investigative Directorate, Ipid, but also creates a separate piece of legislation for the Ipid and removes it from being governed under the South African Police Service Act, as was the case previously.
Historically, there have been several problems that have plagued the smooth operation of the ICD. While it had investigative powers over the police, it still had to submit its recommendations to the national Commissioner of Police. The ICD has had no powers to ensure the implementation of its recommendations. There have also been concerns raised in Parliament regarding the broad focus of the ICD's mandate and its inability to implement this mandate effectively.
Equally, there have been concerns raised in relation to the ICD's lack of powers when investigating cases of corruption, especially within the police.
It is important to note that the monitoring by the ICD of compliance with the Domestic Violence Act by members of the police and general complaints by members of the public have been removed from the mandate of the Ipid. The Ipid will locate some of the oversight functions, such as those relating to the Domestic Violence Act, within the secretariat. The Bill further recognises that the police themselves must ultimately be responsible for investigating, irrespective of whether or not the perpetrator is a police officer.
The one area we have specifically located under the new Ipid is the investigation of any police officer involved in rape. We adopted this stance primarily because crimes against women and girls remain one of the government's key priorities. We want to ensure that in cases where a police officer is suspected of committing such a crime, the case should be investigated by an independent body.
This approach will go a long way towards building public confidence in the force while at the same time reinforcing government's commitment to ensuring that the most vulnerable in society are not abused by the very same people who should be protecting them.
For the Ipid to achieve its objectives and strategic goals it is imperative that its operational framework is properly aligned. To this end, the structure of the new Ipid must speak to its core functions. Past experiences indicated that there have been structural challenges that impacted on the directorate's successes. Therefore, the Bill speaks to the fact that the national office should be a lean, administrative office providing strategic leadership and direction, but with the capacity to execute the mandate located in the various provinces. Members who have previously been in the National Assembly know this. Currently that is not happening. We hope that this legislation will make a change.
As we indicated earlier, there can be no question that the historical, dysfunctional nature of the secretariat created a vacuum that the ICD unsuccessfully tried to fill. Section 208 of our Constitution gives effect to the establishment of the civilian secretariat under the direction of the Minister of Police.
The 1998 White Paper on Safety and Security provides for the SA Police Service to be the vehicle for law enforcement for the Republic. The White Paper further required and mandated a need to reform the system in which policy planning and monitoring occurred within the former Department of Safety and Security.
The Civilian Secretariat for Police Service Bill has been brought to this Parliament with very clear intentions on the part of the Ministry of Police. We have been forthright in our assertion that the current policing environment in our country requires us to fight crime smartly, toughly and with no mercy for those heartless criminals.
It also became apparent that as part of our legislative framework we required strong policing oversight bodies that would make sure that the policies of policing are determined by the executive. We adopted this framework precisely because, as we have said before in this House, we have no intention of sliding our policing approach towards a police state. We are of the firm view that there needs to be transparency and a separation of powers when determining policy and the implementation thereof. The Civilian Secretariat for Police Service Bill gives effect to that separation of powers and functions.
It requires the secretariat to provide sound civilian oversight over the SAPS, drive partnerships, provide policy advice to the Minister and to provide for the organisation of the civilian secretariat into a designated department. It further provides for the co-operation between the Independent Police Investigative Directorate and the secretariat, as well as enhancing co-operation between the SAPS and the civilian secretariat.
Importantly, the Bill uncouples the budget of the secretariat as a core centre of the SAPS so that it can maintain its independence from the SAPS. We have every confidence that a revamped, efficient and effective secretariat will enable us to develop policy that is sound and on par with international best practices, hon Makhubela, unlike previously when the secretariat had to beg to get funding from the Police.
It should also be remembered that by accepting this legislation we are in no way second-guessing the work of the police. On the contrary ... [Interjections.]
Deputy Chair, on a point of order: Would you please request the hon Deputy Minister to desist from directing her remarks at hon members of this House and to direct them through you, please.
Thank you, Deputy Chair, I didn't think that hon Makhubela would be offended. He knows what I'm talking about; he's my friend.
It should also be remembered that by accepting this legislation we are in no way second-guessing the work of the police. On the contrary, we are making sure that the police render their duties with excellence across all facets of their interaction with society. We expect the Civilian Secretariat for Police Service to take responsibility for strategic and indicative planning, research and the formulation of departmental policy proposals, which, when approved by the Ministry, would guide the activities of the SA Police Service.
We expect the Bill to monitor the department to ensure alignment with policies approved by the Minister and to develop and implement performance controls of the performance agreements, which direct functions of members of the South African Police. It is also expected that the Bill will provide ministerial support services, including the management and control of departmental and international media and stakeholder liaison as well as legal services.
Therefore, we envisage that the Bill will implement a communication strategy aimed at informing and mobilising role-players and partners outside the department regarding policing matters.
Ultimately, the Bill must strengthen the partnerships on social mobilisation to deepen the national dialogue on safety. The Civilian Secretariat for Police Service will be accountable to the Minister and to Parliament for its functions and activities.
Another key aspect of the Bill relates to the establishment of provincial secretariats. We expect better alignment between the civilian secretariat and the provinces with the establishment of provincial secretariats. It is here in the engine room of the provinces that we will expect to see strong and functioning monitoring and evaluation units in the provinces.
We also intend to deepen the national dialogue on safety by establishing partnership units as part of the provincial secretariats. We are certain that the Bill before this House provides us with a sterling opportunity to put into practice the policies, methodologies and strategies to refine our policing for all South Africans.
We remain committed to seeing through our vision of a transformed, accountable and effective police service. With these two pieces of legislation, we are committing ourselves to continue working for the entrenchment of a human rights culture. We have now provided the new Independent Police Investigative Directorate and the Civilian Secretariat for Police Service with the necessary tools, and it will be up to the leadership of these bodies to implement this mandate. I thank you. [Applause.]
Motlatsa Modulasetulo, matona a kgabane a Lekgotla la Diprofinsi, Motlatsa Letona Sepolesa Mme Maggy Sotyu. E re pele ke nke monyetla ona ho o lebohisa boikarabelong ba hao bo botjha jwalo ka Motlatsa Letona la Sepolesa.
Ke lakatsa ho qala morao selemong sa 1992 ka tokomane ya ANC, "Re malala a laotswe ho ka busa", e ileng ya sisinya hore ho Afrika Borwa e ntjha ya demokrasi, dipelaelo tsa boitshwaro bo bobe ba sepolesa, di tla sebetswa ka mokgwa wa botletlebi bo ikemetseng le dipatlisiso. Ntlha ena e ne e habile hore sepolesa se be le boikarabelo setjhabeng seo se se lebeletseng ka mokgwa o ikemetseng ebile o se na leeme. Ena ke tjhebelopele ya ANC sepoleseng sa Afrika Borwa kamora kgethollo. Modulasetulo ya kgabane, tjhebelopele ena, ke yona motheo wa ho tshepahala le maikemisetso a dikamolao ka tatelano.
Mothating wa jwale karolwana 53 ya Tshebeletso ya Sepolesa sa Afrika Borwa, e fana ka matlataelo a molao ho Lekgotla le Ikemetseng mme e lebisitse ho Karolwana 18 ya Molao wa Merusu Malapeng, 116 e reng ke boitshwaro bo bobe hore setho sa sepolesa se hlolehe ho ikamahanya le molao oo se o nehilweng ho ya ka mokgwa oo.
Matlataelo ana a ananela hore diketso tsa sepolesa di tlameha ho ba kahare ho meedi ya molao esita le leano la boikarabelo. Matlataelo ana a sireletsa seabo sa tekolo ya ICD ho sepolesa e le hore ho lwantshwe ditlolo tsa molao. Re a ananela hore ka tlasa demokrasi ya molaotheo sepolesa se ke ke sa e ba molao ka bosona.
Mohoo wa ANC wa Dikgetho tsa 2009 o boela o paka ntlha ena ya kgale ya ho lwantsha ditlolo tsa molao kgahlanong le basadi le bana ka ho eketsa bokgoni ba sepolesa ba ho sebetsana le dinyewe tse jwalo. Ho ja setsi ha ditlolo tsa molao tse nang le dikgoka ho entse tlhokeho ya hore ho matlafatswe Tshebeletso ya Sepolesa ya Afrika Borwa. Ka lebaka leo, ditlolo tsa molao tsa mofuta ona di hlaloswa e le ditlolo tsa molao tse ka sehloohong ke mmuso wa rona.
Ka dilemolemo diphumano tse fapafapaneng tsa diphuputso le ditlaleho tsa palamente di pepesitse diqholotso tse ngata mabapi le ho ikamahanya ha sepolesa le ditshitsinyo tsa Lekgotla le Ikemetseng la Ditletlebo.
Diqholotso tsena esita le boiphehiso di utollotse kgaello ya ho kenngwa tshebetsong ha Molao wa Merusu Malapeng, DVA, oo e leng matlataelo a sepolesa le ICD. Diphuputso le ditlaleho di utollotse kgaellonyana ya bokgoni ho nnetefatsa bofuputsi bo matla ba ICD kgahlanong le boitshwaro bo bobe kapa bonyofonyofo ba sepolesa bo kenyeletsang ho se ikamahanye le tlhekefetso ya malapeng. Ka sebele hona le kgaello ya ICD ya ho sala morao e le ho nnetefatsa hore e ikamahanya le ditshitshinyo tsa yona. Ka lebaka leo sekamolao sa Lekgotla le Ikemetseng la Bofuputsi ba Sepolesa se lohothwa ho kwala sekgeo seo.
Modulasetulo ya kgabane, Lekgotla le Ikemetseng la Bofuputsi ba Sepolesa, le tla sebetsa ka boikemelo, le sa itshetleha ho Tshebeletso ya Sepolesa sa Afrika Borwa. Ho ya ka sekamolao ya boikemelo ba lekgotla la bofuputsi bo bohlokwa tshebetsong e ntle le ho ba molaong.
Ho ya ka maikemisetso a sekamolao se akaretsang Hlooho ya Mokgatlo e tla ba boemong ba Molaodi wa Phethahatso ho nnetefatsa boikemelo le ho se be le leeme ha IPID. Ho ya ka leano la boikemelo le puso e ntle, ke tshwanelo hore setlamo se thonyang se kenyeletse ditho tsa palamente le batho bohle ba nkang karolo ba sisintsweng le ba bang ba amehang ba kgethilweng. Molaodi wa Phethahatso a ka nna a fetisetsa dinyewe ho NPA bakeng sa ho tjhutjhisetswa ditlolo tsa molao.
Hona ke mokgwa o hlokolosi wa sepolesa, le mofuta wa lebotho leo re le labalabelang re bile re lakatsa ho le bona ha re ntse re tswelapele.
Sekamolao sena se beha ka sehlohlolong ntwa kgahlanong le ditlolo tsa molao. Re ikitlaeditse ho lwantsha ditlolo tsa molao tse mpefetseng haholo, haholoholo ditlolo tsa molao tse nang le dikgoka kgahlanong le bana le basadi. Ntwa ya rona kgahlanong le ditlolo tsa molao ha se ya matsoho empa e molaong, ka mekgwa e kenyeletsang sepolesa sa setjhaba, ho phethisa molao le tlhompho ya hore motho o nkuwa a se na molato. Sepolesa sa rona se tshwanela ho hlompha taba ya hore mmelaellwa o nkuwa a se na molato ho fihlela a fumanwa a e na le molato lekgotleng la dinyewe.
Molao o tla nnetefatsa hore puso ya molao e a latelwa ka nako tsohle, le ke baphethisang molao. Sekamolao sena se ananela haholoholo kamano pakeng tsa meralo le tshebetso ya molao. Mapolesa a rona a phethahatsa molao o hlokang ho tataiswa ke sekamolao sena kamehla. Komiti ya Tshireletso le Ntshetsopele ya Molaotheo e hlahisitse dihlomathiso tsa setegeniki ho amahanya sekamolao le Mohopolo wa Thibelo ya tlolo ya molao le boikarabelo le boikemelo jwalokaha e hlaha ho Molaotheo wa rona. Sekamolao sena se sebetsana le boikemisetso ba seabo seo baahi ba tlamehang ho ba le sona tekolong ya sepolesa. Ntshetsopele ya melao ena e tla nnetefatsa hore dikgoka tsa malapeng di tloswa ho ICD mme di behwe tlasa Secretariat.
Ntlhakemo ya rona e hatella hore ditlolo tsa molao kgahlanong le basadi le bana di dula di le sehloohong mmusong. Dinyewe tsa peto le teteko ya basadi le bana di tshwanetse ho behellwa ka sehloohong.
Sekamolao sena se hlahella e le mokgwa wa ho matlafatsa kamano pakeng tsa ICD le Civilian Secretariat ya Sepolesa. E tla ntlafatsa botebo ba kamano e be e matlafatse tshebedisano pakeng tsa mekgatlo ena e mmedi. Ka tsela ena re lebile tebisong ya demokrasi ya sepolesa.
Re sisintse dihlomathiso tse ding ho matlafatsa bokgoni ba Civilian Secretariat ho nnetefatsa hore mokgwa wa ho tlatsa dikgeo o etswa ka bokgabane nakong e sa fediseng pelo. [Mahofi.] Re hlokomela hore ho ya ka nalane, Secretariat ya Naha e nka thomo ya yona ho Molaotheo le Molao wa Sepolesa. Karolo ya 208 ya Molaotheo e batla Letona la Sepolesa ho thea Civilian Secretariat e sebetsang ka kotlolloho tlasa bolaodi ba taelo ya Letona.
Karolo ya bohlokwa ya Secretariat ke ho tla fana ka ketapele ho kenyeng tshebetsong ha maano tshebedisanong mmoho la banka karolo. Sekamolao sena se matlafatsa ho ikemela ha lekala lena mme se hlakisa ka ho otlolloha boikarabelo ba Letona le Matona a ikarabelang ka tlasa sepolesa sa diprofinsing le ho amahanngwa ha ditshebeletso tsa sepolesa naheng ka bophara. Sekamolao sena se tiseletsa le tshebedisano mmoho dintlheng tse amanang le tsa sepolesa hore ho se ke ha ba le dikgohlano.
Dikamolao tsena tse pedi di bohlokwa ntweng kgahlanong le bosenyi haholoholo tlhekefetso ya bomme le bana.
Re le ANC re tshehetsa dikamolao tsena ho thusa ho lwantsha bosenyi le ho aha setjhaba se senang botlokotsebe ho batho bohle. Ke a leboha. [Mahofi.] (Translation of Sesotho speech follows.)
[Mr T M H MOFOKENG: Deputy Chairperson, hon members of the National Council of Provinces, Deputy Minister of Police Maggie Sotyu, let me first take this opportunity to congratulate you on your appointment as Deputy Minister of Police.
I would like to start right at the back, in the year 1992, with the ANC's document "We are ready to govern", which suggested that in the new democratic dispensation in South Africa, allegations of police corruption would be dealt with through an independent process of investigation. The goal was to establish a police force which is accountable to the community it serves, in an independent manner and free from bias. This is the ANC's vision for the police in postapartheid South Africa. Hon Chairperson, this vision is the foundation for building trust as well as introducing relevant Bills to that effect.
Currently, section 53 of the South African Police Service Act gives a legal mandate to the Independent Complaints Directorate, ICD, and it leads to section 18 of the Domestic Violence Act, Act 116 of 1998. This Act prescribes that it is bad conduct for a member of the police not to obey instructions accordingly.
This mandate stipulates that the actions of the police should be within the bounds of the law as well as the principles of accountability. This mandate protects the ICD's investigations into the police in order to combat crime. We are grateful that under constitutional democracy the police won't be a law unto themselves.
The ANC's 2009 election manifesto is further proof of a long-held view of combating crimes against women and children by increasing the police's capacity to deal with cases of such a nature. The increase in violent crimes has necessitated the bolstering of the SA Police Service. As a result, these kinds of crimes have been regarded as priority crimes by our government.
For many years different research findings and reports of Parliament highlighted many challenges that the police and the Independent Complaints Directorate agreed upon.
These challenges exposed the difficulty of implementing the Domestic Violence Act, which happens to be part of the mandate of the ICD. The research as well as the reports also exposed the lack of capacity in ensuring proper investigative skill on the part of the ICD in dealing with bad conduct or corruption in the police, which also involves failure to adhere to the Domestic Violence Act. In fact, there is a lack of follow-up on cases by the ICD, as well as ensuring that it adheres to its own principles. As a result the Independent Police Investigative Directorate Bill is intended to close that gap.
Hon Chairperson, the Independent Police Investigative Directorate, Ipid, will function independently without relying on the SA Police Service. According to the Bill, the independence of the Ipid is important in respect of its functioning as well as compliance with legislation.
According to the objects of the Bill, the head of the organisation will be at the level of executive management in order to ensure independence as well as fairness of the Ipid. According to the principles of independence and good governance, it is appropriate that the oath must include Members of Parliament as well as all the other relevant people who have been nominated. Furthermore, the presiding officer should be able to forward cases to the NPA for criminal prosecution.
This is an important policing method, as well as the type of police force that we wish to see as we move on.
This Bill regards as its priority the fight against crime. We are determined to fight heinous crimes, especially violent crimes against women and children. Our fight against crime is not personal but it is legal, which also involves the national police force, and honouring and respecting the principle that a person is considered innocent until proven guilty. Our police must respect the principle that a suspect is considered innocent until proven guilty by a court of law.
The Bill will ensure that the rule of law is followed at all times, even by those who implement legislation. The Bill welcomes the relationship between the draft and implementation of the legislation. Our police should perform their duties in a lawful manner and be guided by this Bill at all times. The Select Committee on Security and Constitutional Development introduced technical additions to link the Bill with crime prevention methods as well as responsibility and independence just as it appears in our Constitution. This Bill deals with the role citizens should play in the evaluation of the police. The implementation of this Bill will ensure that domestic crimes are removed from the ICD and become the responsibility of the secretariat.
Our standpoint emphasises the fact that crimes against women and children will always be a priority for our government. Crimes involving rape and women and child abuse should be the main priority.
This Bill comes about as a way of strengthening the relationship between the IPID and the Civilian Secretariat for Police Service. It strengthens the bonds of the relationship and improves co-operation between these two organisations. In this way we are heading towards the deepening of democracy within the police.
We have suggested some additions to strengthen the capacity of the civilian secretariat to ensure that the strategy of filling vacancies is done properly and in good time. [Applause.] We are aware that, according to history, the national secretariat gets it directive from the Constitution and the South African Police Service Act. Section 208 of the Constitution requires the Minister of Police to establish a civilian secretariat that works directly under the management of the Minister.
The most important role of the secretariat is to provide leadership in respect of implementing policies as well as participation of stakeholders. This Bill is strengthening the independence of this division, and it specifies the responsibilities of the national Minister and Ministers who are accountable for provincial police services as well as the linkage of police services nationally. This Bill ensures close co-operation on issues that pertain to police matters so that there is no conflict.
These two Bills are very important in the fight against crime, especially women and child abuse.
As the ANC we support this Bill in order to contribute to the fight against crime and to build a society free of criminality for everyone. [Applause.]]
Madam Deputy Chair, hon members, hon Deputy Minister of Police, I prepared my speech in English for today, but as I moved forward, I was so encouraged that perhaps I should go and change it into Afrikaans.
Sorry, hon Beyleveldt, can you just hold on? Members, the air conditioning has been turned down, but because it is an old piece of equipment, it takes time to actually take effect. So, veteran, just keep your jacket fastened up. [Laughter.] Thank you. Continue, please.
Thank you, Madam Deputy Chair. Today, we are debating two very important Bills: the Independent Police Investigative Directorate Bill, Ipid, and the Civilian Secretariat for Police Service Bill.
The Independent Police Investigative Directorate aims to ensure independent oversight of the SAPS and municipal police services. Furthermore, it must provide for the independent and impartial investigation of identified criminal offences allegedly committed by members of the SAPS and municipal police services. The directorate functions independently from the SAPS, but reports to the Minister of Police.
The civilian secretariat, however, must monitor the performance of the police and its policies. The secretariat will also be responsible for monitoring the implementation of the budget. According to both these Bills, the Minister must appoint the executive directors. The success of the Bills will depend on how independently the organisations will operate.
During a public hearing in Qwaqwa last week, members of the public complained bitterly about the behaviour of members of the SAPS. They alleged that after they had laid their complaints, their allegations were investigated by local friends of the police.
I do not say that it was the truth, but we need to protect the independence of the investigators at all costs, so that they can do their job without fear or favour. The manner in which the results of investigations will be handled will determine the legitimacy of the organisations.
Chapter 6 of the Bill makes provision for the appointment of fit and proper persons as investigators, according to certain laid-down guidelines. We trust that those appointments will be done in an open and transparent manner. Under no circumstances should political affiliation play a role in the appointments.
We, as citizens, want personnel with a strong set of values. They should be characterised by trustworthiness, show respect by honouring others, be responsible by being accountable, and be fair by being impartial regarding the needs of those they must serve and protect.
We want an environment where we have an open society with equal opportunities for all. We want to see to it that only the best men and women are entrusted with positions where they can ensure that only people with the highest quality of leadership are appointed to manage these two independent organisations that must give effect to our Constitution.
The question of sufficient funding will also be a fundamental imperative in determining the success of the operations. If there are only sufficient funds to appoint the top structures and not enough investigators to perform their duties, then we should reconsider our endeavours to serve the people of our country.
I conclude by asking: In South Africa, who is guarding the guardians? I thank you, hon Deputy Chair. [Applause.]
Deputy Chairperson, Deputy Minister and hon members, I rise on behalf of the ANC, which adopted the Freedom Charter in 1955. This Freedom Charter was conceived by the ANC at its 1953 congress, and later the Congress Alliance led the processes, through volunteers, that resulted in the adoption of the Freedom Charter. Amongst the aspirations of the people in that process ...
Hon member, could you please hold on. Hon Mlenzana!
Just to check, Deputy Chairperson ... [Interjections.]
He is standing, unfortunately, he will ... [Laughter.] Order, members! Order! [Laughter.]
Deputy Chairperson, I am just standing to check if the hon member is ready to take my question.
I beg your pardon. Can you repeat that?
I am rising, Deputy Chairperson, to check if the hon member is ready to take my question.
Yes, I am ready.
Your question?
Deputy Chairperson, is it correct for the hon member to stand at the podium and pronounce or announce on wrong history in terms of years?
Can I respond, Madam?
Deputy Chairperson, if the member does not have listening skills, he should not ask questions. He was not listening because there was nothing wrong with what was said by the hon member.
There was!
Hon Mokgobi, are you prepared to answer hon Mlenzana?
Yes.
Can you do so, please?
Deputy Chairperson, in 1953, in case people are not aware, the ANC went to its conference. At that conference the need for a gathering where the vision of the people would be set out was deliberated upon. That was in 1953. In 1955, the Freedom Charter was adopted as a result of that. [Applause.]
Hon Mlenzana, I am not going to give you a chance to start a dialogue. That is history. Please, sit down. [Laughter.]
Thank you very much, Deputy Chairperson. [Interjections.]
Veteran, may I plead with you to save our time as we don't have much. If there is a query, would you please put it in black and white and then I will process it? Could you please allow the hon member to proceed.
Thank you very much. To those who want political education, I am free after delivering this speech. I have documents with me and we will share them. [Interjections.]
Hon Mokgobi!
From there, clause 5 states that everyone shall be free and equal before the law. In that instance, during the April 1994 breakthrough, a serious fundamental process began to ensure that what was an injustice and declared as a crime against humanity by the United Nations was corrected.
The ruling party, which is the ANC, started the process, as from 2004, to undo what was a serious injustice against the people of South Africa. As we debate this Bill, we see a reflection of what people said during the gathering in 1955.
The two Bills seek to ensure that the people of South Africa are building a nation that will thrive under peace and harmony, precisely because we came from a nation that was defined differently before 1994. The other nation is the nation that was racially secured by law, and appointments and many other things were done on the basis of racial discrimination.
Now we are building a nonracial nation through our strategic objective. Firstly, the Bills that we are debating today are aimed at ensuring that the police force in this country responds to the issues of injustice irrespective of skin colour.
Secondly, we want to see the country being serviced by the type of police and justice system that would apply to each and everyone, regardless of colour. This is a fundamental objective of the ANC. When we, as the ANC, went to Polokwane in 2007 - Polokwane was a conference for the ANC and the country - and when we went to Durban again to reassess how far we were, we emphasised the point that indeed issues of police services must be looked into. We gave a mandate to our deployees in Parliament to ensure that they come up with the type of law that will ensure that South Africans are safe.
We believe that these two Bills, particularly the Independent Police Investigative Directorate Bill, which tries to transform the ICD, will now ensure that the police are no longer doing as they wish; precisely because previously the police were doing as they wished, especially from a racial point of view. Now we want to see to it that they don't do as they wish, and that they don't for example investigate a murder without it being overseen. As we do so, the question of "shoot-to-kill" will be debated later and not now.
We have inherited certain police elements through our sunset clause, ensuring job security. We believe that there will be training to change the mind-sets and attitudes of members of the former police force, and to make them more oriented towards a democratic order through this Bill. This is because some of them are hard nuts; they don't want to change and they still pursue a certain element within the system.
Through the Independent Police Investigative Directorate Bill, we will know that, indeed, the police will be monitored, and if there is any wrongdoing, the police will be brought to account. Previously, the Independent Complaints Directorate, ICD, as we looked at it, was there but did not have the teeth to bite.
We want a system that has the teeth to bite because the public wants a safe environment. If the system of safety is corrupt, then our people won't be safe precisely because the police are not punishable. We do not have the power to return to them and punish the perpetrators within the police services.
Therefore, that is the essence of the importance of the Independent Police Investigative Directorate Bill, as created by the resolutions of the ANC in 2007, and in Durban 2010.
In terms of the Civilian Secretariat for Police Service Bill, we see the strengthening of the relationship, particularly between the management component and the Minister, and it also provides for overseeing the police.
The Civilian Secretariat for Police Service Bill and Independent Police Investigative Directorate Bill will work together to ensure safety and security, and ensure that, within the context of co-operative and intergovernmental relations, any element of corruption or crime does not go undetected in any unit within the departmental system. If we leave it too independent, some elements might end up in other units.
Therefore, we will have to ensure that the security force units work together within this context, precisely because what we call "collective work" will be reflected in reality within the departmental system. This is part of the national democratic programme of the movement. At the end of the day, we would want to see all people living together as equals, in harmony, free from fear and from war.
We had been living in fear for most of our lives before 1994, but we want everybody - even those who tortured us - to live with us in harmony, without any fear. They must not have any fear of the democratic order, because the Constitution explains clearly that everyone is equal. Therefore it is important that these two Bills be passed.
These Bills will also strengthen the work of the police in order for them to be able to prevent, combat, and investigate crime, and to protect and secure the inhabitants of this country. They must also be able to enforce a law that is guided by the procedures in the system that we put in place through these Bills.
After these Bills, obviously, there would be a particular regulation that would direct specifications on the behaviour of the police. As the ANC, we are en route and we are happy about what Parliament is doing. When we took over in 1994, we had to be fundamentally persistent in respect of transformation to put in place new laws that are in line with the Constitution.
That was a task carried out until 1999. From 1999 to 2004, we knew that our Parliament was seized with certain oversight, and had to ensure that after the oversight there was implementation.
We then moved from 2004 to 2009. During this time implementation was a core event in the Department of Police and Department of Justice and Constitutional Development; implementation was an issue.
These things inform us, precisely because when we check prior to where we are today, there was an outcry from the public that crime levels are too high. Now we are putting the system in place to ensure that crime is reduced. When crime is reduced, economic growth and development in this country indeed will be high.
In this way we will create a stable society where everyone in our nonracial, nonsexist, democratic country will enjoy the fruit of freedom. We are doing this because we are creating a country that is going to be much better. [Interjections.]
Yes, let us pass this Bill, to correct apartheid's legacies. [Applause.] [Time expired.]
Deputy Chairperson, on a point of order: I didn't want to interrupt while the member was speaking, but it's important that the Chairperson must also adhere to the decorum of the House. You referred to the hon Mokgoro as "Veteran". I think it's unparliamentarily to do that and I want to request you to call him by his name. [Laughter.]
Unfortunately, dear hon Sinclair, you are out of order.
Madam Deputy Chair, members of the NCOP, the Deputy Minister of Police - I acknowledge you - ladies and gentlemen; allow me at the outset to say that although the Western Cape government opposes the Civilian Secretariat for Police Service Bill, we fully subscribe to the need for the secretariat to be empowered.
Viewed through a national lens, the Bill makes provision for proper policing, oversight and monitoring, which is most welcome. However, from a provincial basis, the Bill got its wires crossed and confused the powers and functions of a secretariat with those powers exclusively conferred on the provinces by the Constitution of South Africa.
This is why, as a province, we do not support the Civilian Secretariat for Police Service Bill. This is the primary reason for opposing the Bill. All South Africans must jealously protect our Constitution, and it is our opinion that this Bill is inconsistent with certain provisions of the Constitution. I will highlight only a few examples.
The Constitution confers powers on the provincial executives to monitor police conduct, oversee the effectiveness and efficiency of the SA Police Service and to promote the relationships between communities and the SAPS. The provinces also have legislative competence to regulate these functions.
However, Chapter 4 of the secretariat Bill provides for the very same monitoring and overseeing of the police service by a provincial secretariat. We believe that this is inconsistent with section 206(4) of the Constitution, which provides that the provincial executive is the reasonable body for these policing functions, which include monitoring, assessing and overseeing the police services.
These policing functions are reserved for the provincial executive and may not be assigned by national legislation, even to a provincial organ of state such as the provincial secretariat. From a legal perspective, the Western Cape is of the opinion that the provision regulating the status of the provincial secretariats is ambiguous and that interpretational difficulties may arise. If the intention is for the regionalisation of the secretariat described in section 208 of the Constitution, it must clearly say so; and again it must be stressed that the secretariat cannot encroach on the functions of the provincial executive.
Chapter 3 of the Constitution determines that each sphere of government, and all organs of state within each sphere, must respect the constitutional status, institutions, powers and functions of government in the three spheres; not assume any power or function except those conferred on them in terms of the Constitution; and must exercise their powers and perform their functions in a manner that does not encroach on the geographical, functional or institutional integrity of government in another sphere.
The Bill, therefore, is in disharmony with section 41 of the Constitution as it attempts to assume functions conferred on provinces and thus does not respect the constitutional stature of the provincial government.
I urge the drafters of the Bill to study section 100 of our Constitution. I sometimes think that we don't read the Constitution! This clearly spells out when and how the national executive may intervene in provinces.
The Bill addresses this very important issue in a very cavalier manner. The Constitution clearly states that where the national executive intervenes in a province, a notice of intervention must be tabled in this Council and then it must end unless the NCOP approves it within 30 days of its first sitting.
I want to say that this is an important House and the Constitution confers important powers to this House; and I think sometimes you make a joke of this House. The Bill, however, ignores these constitutional imperatives and refers to interventions for 90 days at a time.
It is important to understand that a civilian secretariat really is a civilian secretariat. The drafters of the Bill erroneously argued for the independence of the secretariat - as if that will solve the problem of a weak and dysfunctional secretariat. And why should the Civilian Secretariat for police Service be any different from that of defence?
I urge members to read sections 204 and 206 of our Constitution. Section 204 reads: A civilian secretariat for defence must be established by national legislation to function under the direction of the Cabinet member responsible for defence.
Section 208 is an exact duplication bar the words "police service" for "defence".
I want to conclude by reiterating that the Western Cape supports the idea of empowering the secretariat. We fully acknowledge that, at present, the SAPS, which should receive its budget and policy directives from the secretariat, treats the secretariat as a nuisance. But the solution is not to create a separate department; the answer is in the White Paper.
The Department of Defence is structured along similar lines. Please let us look at this important piece of legislation again. I thank you, Madam Deputy Chair. [Applause.]
Hon Deputy Chairperson, it's an honour to be here in this House, and thank you for the invitation, and my congratulations also to the Deputy Minister in this portfolio.
What we are looking for in South Africa is a credible, honest, dependable and true service. Whatever political party we belong to, what we really want to see and know is that the men and women in blue have our interests and safety at heart.
For that reason, I want say thank you to this Parliament for coming up, as one of the first stages, with these two Bills. This is because what these Bills really do is that they are trying to show the seriousness of this government in combating crime, even if that crime is committed by the SA Police Service.
I believe that we are really serious, and what the public out there wants to see is that we don't really waste time on certain technicalities. But if these Bills are passed, are our citizens going to be safer out there: Yes or no?
Crime must be fought and the public must see that crime does not pay, especially when hon members here and I would get phone calls, sometimes in the middle of the night, to say a policeman had just raped a girl.
The worst thing is that when that happens, the Independent Complaints Directorate, ICD, would not be available; their telephone would not be available in the middle of the night. What happens is that the same policeman who has raped the girl must take the complaint.
I believe that those people will now realise that this is not a police state. The police will be responsible for their actions, whatever they may be. These Bills will help us to have a credible police service and the citizens will respect our men and women in blue.
Let me say that the scenes and sights that we saw on television the other day, which are happening in KwaZulu-Natal - I don't know if it was staged or not - where a policeman was sitting on someone and hitting him, must not be tolerated in South Africa.
Minister, talking about the Western Cape in particular and looking at some of the things our Metro Police are doing, I want to say that the police are not a law unto themselves. We, as leaders and representatives of our people, with the support of these Bills, entrust them with the power om daardie mense vas te vat [to clamp down on those people].
I don't know how to say that in English. I need to say this because not only do I speak on behalf of the ANC here, but I'm also from the Western Cape.
Do you know that these two Bills were discussed in our legislature, but I promise you that it's the first time that I have heard the sentiments in this regard that I have heard from the MEC today. There is no record in any document in the Western Cape that these were the sentiments that the MEC has just shared.
In fact, I am actually surprised that these Bills are before this House when the MEC did not discuss this in the Minmec. We must try to not play politics. We must begin to be honest. These Bills do not take away any power from the present Constitution; they do not. Let me tell you that I know that the MEC is new at this, so I'm taking care here; he needs some help. I know that, and won't go against him because every one of us must learn.
The power that the Constitution gives to all provinces, not only the Western Cape, is that if there is anything wrong with these two Bills, the Constitutional Court will never approve them. I would therefore challenge them to take this to the Constitutional Court and let's see who will be right then. This province has borne the brunt of men and women in the police who are not acting correctly.
Let me say how a mandate was arrived at in the Western Cape. These Bills came before the Western Cape parliament twice. In fact, the first time they came before the province, I actually got up in the House and said that it was a mistake for these Bills to come before us then because we were told that there was no deadline at that time. At that session, we even asked for a division in the House. So, seriously, the Western Cape was divided on this issue.
It was not a unanimous decision that they must vote against the Bills here. All political parties, excluding, of course, the DA and ID who are in agreement with them, voted for these Bills and also those who were not in agreement with them voted that these Bills must be approved. [Interjections.]
You just read the Hansard and you'll get the answers.
Do you know that when they came before this House the second time, the House was so wrong. In fact, the Leader of the Opposition talked about democracy in the House; as a result all the opposition parties, including the ANC, had to leave the House and walk out. The only remaining parties, and not the full ... [Interjections.]
Madam Deputy Chairperson, on a point of order: The proceedings of a provincial legislature have absolutely nothing to do with these Bills. I suggest that the member prepares a better speech next time.
Deputy Chairperson, the proceedings of the legislature are important so that members can know how a decision was arrived at with regard to the amendments.
During the second time, everyone had to walk out of the House and the only people who remained were the DA and ID. Do we know that then these Bills were pushed through the House without knowing that, a week prior to that, the opposition made a standpoint in the House to say that we support this Bill?
I want to say that, firstly, this was not a unanimous decision. Secondly, from the other members of the House, we support these Bills and we want to see them implemented in the way that they are before this House. We also want to see that these Bills will bring a better quality of life to all the citizens of this country; whatever their colour, and that is what we stand for. I thank you. [Applause.]
Deputy Chairperson and the Deputy Minister of Police, what a fitting and correct appointment the President made with the Deputy Minister because she knows everything! [Applause.]
As Cope, we note these two Bills. It is very interesting, however, when you check these two Bills, that the Independent Police Investigative Directorate Bill deals with the conduct of the police. At the same time there was an amendment to the Criminal Procedure Act, which deals with the conduct of section 49(2). Here the Minister has three pillars: the secretariat, Ipid and the police. You tell a child to hit hard; you tell another child to put - what do you call it - a disciplinary action on that particular person.
Now the Minister also came back with the military ranks in order to give fuel to the police to shoot. At the same time here is the Bill - you are coming here with two very good Bills. What is the rationale for this? Will the Minister sit down and try to relay that when the police use the force, even though the Ipid is there, they should be sensitive when dealing with that? This is a very good Bill on the Ipid, but is there any capacity? I want to see the branch or unit at Jacobsdal helping people there on the ground.
At present, there are 197 000 or 200 000 police members. How many directorates are there to deal with the situation? How many secretariats are there? Some of the monitoring mechanisms have been removed from the Ipid, in order for them to come to the secretariat so that they can strengthen them just to fill posts there.
We don't want a federal state; we want a continuous chain of command from the national commissioner to the national Minister and down. The MEC cannot come with his or her own rules analysis and say, "Okay, he or she has done this or that". But I want to tell you this is a wonderful Bill.
Minister, what you can do is to line up the strategy about the budget - yes, I used to control the secretariat and give them the budget. She is right! But now, Deputy Chairperson, really, I am very moved by these two Bills.
Just check, when you go on to the implementation of this; we must try to sensitise or to have these things connected together so that we can move with them. I support the Bill as Cope. Thank you.
Madam Deputy Chair, thank you very much. I too would like to extend my congratulations to those who have made maiden speeches here this morning, and also to the Deputy Minister on her appointment. I noted with interest her remark about "he is my friend", and would like to remind her that some other person in this line of policing said, "He is my friend, finish and klaar!"
One wonders if the new Ipid is going to have the ability or the spine, when a National Commissioner of Police of steps out of line, to be prepared to take the national police commissioner to task. That really is where the nub of this matter lies.
Independence itself is not a matter of degree; either a body is independent or it is not. The criteria determining independence are judged as set out in the heads of argument filed by the Helen Suzman Foundation in the recent appeal before the Constitutional Court in the Glenister litigation, in which the reinstatement of the Directorate of Special Operations is sought.
The question, therefore, remains: Who will guard the guardians? For those of you who know a bit of Latin: Quis custodiet ipsos custodes, which is also the national motto of our intelligence agency.
The existing Independent Complaints Directorate in South Africa is not functioning well. This has been admitted by the Deputy Minister, and I think that we all agree that it has severe shortcomings. But any body formed to investigate and adjudicate upon a criminal activity needs to enjoy a measure of independence for it to function properly and in accordance with those requirements of law.
Fairness is at the core of the rule of law. I listened with some interest to some of the remarks made, especially by my colleague in the Western Cape legislature, Mr Patrick "Promises" McKenzie, who said that we are arguing a technicality; but we are arguing about constitutional law. The Constitution of South Africa is not a technicality.
This House is here to protect the rights and responsibilities of the provinces, both to hold it in judgement and, at the same time, to support the powers of provinces. The argument made by the hon MEC for Community safety did just that.
As far as the Western Cape is concerned - just to put your minds at ease about whether we just took unilateral decisions or not - what we did was to hold four public hearings. We had over 40 community police forum chairpersons who attended the public hearings. We had inputs and evidence from lawyers, from departments and the like. We gave that information.
We also had input from the two sponsors of the two Bills. We gave the findings of those hearings to the various sponsors and, in the case of the Independent Complaints Directorate, they declined to answer the arguments as raised in the hearings by the public and simply said that the department supports the adoption of the Ipid Bill.
In other words, they weren't prepared to even discuss the technicalities or arguments that had been raised. They are simply trying to force through a Bill, despite the fact that there is a very credible legal argument - specially as far as the Independent Police Investigative Directorate Bill is concerned - that proper independence is not involved.
The Bill says that the directorate functions independently of the SA Police Service. It is the opinion of the Western Cape Standing Committee on Community Safety that the independence afforded by the IPID Bill is grossly inadequate.
The directorate, although removed from the SAPS, continues to reside under the Ministry of Police. The Minister is therefore the political head of both the SA Police Service and the directorate. The Minister in question is therefore the responsible Minister against whom complaints may be lodged in terms of the Bill.
If one is concerned about whether the Minister may or may not involve himself in the matters of policing, I refer you to an article of 10 November 2010 which reported that Minister Nathi Mthethwa issued an instruction for the boys to be arrested, and that this was done. That was in regard to that case of those youngsters who filmed each other having sex, and it was a case of rape. They arrested the kids and then had to let them go because due process had not been followed. I thank you. [Time expired.] [Applause.]
UMntwana M M M ZULU: Phini kaSihlalo waleNdlu, namalungu ahloniphekile, Phini likaNgqongqoshe noma selingasekho, njengenhlangano ye-IFP siyawemukela ngokupheleleyo loMthethosivivinywa Wophiko Lwamaphoyisa Lophenyo Oluzimele ngoba uyinto enhle kakhulu ekusebenzeni.
Kwakungamele nakancane kuvunyelwe amaphoyisa abengonqeqe bezazi zomthetho, bavele badubule abantu bakithi. Sebekhulumile abanye abafowethu abangaphambili kwami kunomuntu oyedwa odlala imidlalo eminingi ngingeze ngagxila kukho lokho ngoba akufuneki umuntu anikeza ukuba abantu benze okuthile kwabanye bese etshela abanye ukuthi benze okuthile kwabanye. Into edidayo-ke leyo.
Into esifuna ukuyiphakamisa eqenjini elibusayo uma behlongoza okuthile okuhle kumele sikuxhase lokho, ukuze ezweni lethu kuzoba khona ukuchaza nokuzibophezela kuzo zonke izinhlaka zikahulumeni. Ukungaziphathi kahle kwamaphoyisa akuzukwamukeleka, uma ngingenza isibonelo esisodwa, kukhona umfana esifundeni sakwaNongoma endaweni okuthiwa uSuthu, kwathiwa lomfana wadlwengula intombazane encane.
Lo mfana wayengesona isigebengu wayeyisakhamuzi sendawo, eziphuzela amambawa njengawo wonke umuntu. Ngalolo suku wathola lengane ishiywe ngabazali bayo wase uyayithatha, uhamba nayo endlini. Emva kwalokho wase eboshelwa ukuthi uyidlwengulile. Amaphoyisa amshaya waze wafa, lelo kwakuyicala elikhulu.
Ngalawo magama Ngqongqoshe ohloniphekile ngifuna ukuthi osopolotiki abangagxambukeli emsebenzini wamaphoyisa.
Ngoba uma singagxambukeli emsebenzini wamaphoyisa, amaphoyisa angenza umsebenzi omuhle.
Loluphiko olusha lwamaphoyisa kumele lwethulwe kuNdunankulu ngamunye wesifundazwe ngasinye ukuze sazi ukuthi kumele aziphathe kanjani. Uma kumele sichaze kuMkhandlu kaZwelonke Wezifundazwe noma kuphi akusho lutho ukuthi iPhalamende lihlezi kuphi.
Kumele sikhombise abantu bethu ukuthi iPhalamende akulona izulu. Sifuna ukwazi ukuthi kwenzakalani kusifundazwe ngasinye futhi abantu kufanele bazi.
NjengeIFP siyayesekela leMithethosivivinywa emibili ukuqapha ukuziphatha kwamaphoyisa. Ngiyabonga. (Translation of isiZulu speech follows.)
[Prince M M M ZULU: Deputy Chairperson of this House, hon members and the Deputy Minister in absentia. The IFP fully accepts this Independent Police Investigative Directorate Bill because it is good.
The police were not supposed to be allowed to be super experts in legal matters, who just randomly shoot at our people. My fellow brothers who have spoken before me, there is a person who plays a lot of games but I would not concentrate on that because that person is sending mixed messages. This is confusing.
What we want to say to the ruling party is that if they propose something good, we must support it, so that there can be accountability and commitment in all spheres of government. Inappropriate conduct by police officers is not going to be tolerated. If I can give just one example, there was a boy in the district of Nongoma in a place called uSuthu, who was alleged to have raped a young girl. This boy was not a criminal; he was a member of the community who used to drink beer like anyone else. On that particular day, he found this child abandoned by her parents and took her to his home. Thereafter he was arrested because it was alleged that he raped her. The police fatally beat him up, which was a serious crime.
With those words, hon Minister, I want to say that politicians should not interfere with police work. If we don't interfere, the police would do an excellent job.
This new police unit must be presented to the premier of each province so that we know what to expect from them. If we have to explain this to the National Council of Provinces or anywhere else, it doesn't matter where Parliament will be sitting.
We must show the people that Parliament is not heaven. We want to know what is happening in each province and people should be informed.
As the IFP we support the two Bills on monitoring the conduct of the police. Thank you.]
Deputy Chair, firstly ke rata ho lokisa taba e le nngwe [I would like to rectify one thing].
We have indicated, previously, that the Western Cape is not an island; it is part of this country. The MEC who spoke in Bloemfontein, when the President of this country and the premier were there, indicated to them that anything that is black is unqualified, whilst they have in their own midst people who are unqualified. If you go to the Western Cape now to check how many unqualified white males are leading departments there, you will be shocked.
Premier Ace Magashule had a document to show to them and they ran away. Some of them, seated here, own a lot of farms that they never bought. Now, the point I am raising here ...
Madam Deputy Chair, I have a point of order.
Hon Watson...
The member said a lot of the ...
Hon Watson...
Madam Deputy Chair?
I have given you the floor.
Thank you, Madam Deputy Chair.
Hon Bloem, behave.
The hon member at the podium said that a lot of the members sitting here own farms that they never bought. That statement is out of context and he must withdraw it.
Hon Watson, may I say to all members here that someone will be taking that statement and analysing it, and if need be, steps will be taken. Continue, hon Matila.
Deputy Chair, I know the guilty will always rise.
Just hold on. Hon Lees?
Deputy Chair, is it parliamentary for an hon member of the House to accuse another member of being guilty?
Hon Lees, I have made a ruling on that utterance and steps are going to be taken.
No, no, Madam Deputy Chair, sorry; this is a new matter. The member said that those who have risen are guilty. I am the one who rose; he then implies that I am guilty. He must withdraw. You cannot postpone everything. We are raising points of order and you must rule on them, please. That is your job, Madam Deputy Chair.
With due respect, hon Watson, I made a ruling that the matter will be taken over. Now you are actually ... [Interjections.] Listen, listen! I listened to you when you rose in a huff, and right now I have made a ruling and I am going to pursue that. Continue.
Maybe to help, Mama, let us take a short ...
Hon Bloem, is it a new matter?
Yes, Mama. Maybe we must take a shortcut. Let the hon member name and shame and then it's closed. [Laughter.]
Hon Bloem, unfortunately, we are not the investigating team. I have made a ruling; can you please abide by that?
I withdraw, Mama. [Laughter.]
Deputy Chair, Premier Magashule...
Madam Deputy Chairperson, on a point of order: Is it parliamentary to call the Chairperson "Mama"? [Laughter.]
Hon, Sinclair, let's not waste any more time. I am even more than a Mama. In isiZulu, it is not an insult. [Applause.] Continue, hon member.
Deputy Chairperson, I am very serious on this point. It is fine; we agree that you are a Mama, but there are certain procedures and parliamentary protocol that we must adhere to. I have great respect for the hon Bloem, but to call you "Mama", I think, is unparliamentary. [Interjections.]
Thank you, hon member, but I am not going to entertain that; continue.
There is a problem with two Copes here.
No, continue.
The one is trying to cope, the other one I'm not sure ...
Both of them are Cope members, and please do not waste time. Continue.
Deputy Chair, I think I am not going to read my speech, I'm going to ... [Interjections.]
Hon Bloem, this is final!
You see, hon Bloem, I think it is important for you to second some of your members to these committees.
Hon Matila, can you stick to the discussion? [Applause.]
No, Deputy Chair, I am on the discussion, because this matter was raised earlier. I want to correct it, you see, because people are calling themselves Cope, but they do not understand the history of the organisation, because they quote different dates. [Interjections.]
Is it a new thing?
Yes, it's a new thing.
All right.
I think the member's time has expired. Thank you. [Laughter.]
You are very wrong. Continue.
Deputy Chair, this House is not here to protect provinces. This House is here to deal with the interests of provinces. It's not to protect; because you can't protect wrong things. The MEC and the chairperson from the Western Cape want to protect wrong things.
I am referring to that precisely because of what the President of this country and Ace Magashule, the Premier of the Free State, indicated to them in the Free State: that they are looking at black and white people differently. I am saying this precisely because that is a racist approach, and Ace Magashule said that it is a racist approach and that it is wrong. [Interjections.]
The second thing that I wanted to bring to your attention is that these two Bills are here to strengthen and make sure that the wrongs of apartheid are dealt with properly, because they are strengthening the police. They are assisting the police. We must be aware that the police force, during apartheid, as the President has indicated, was highly corrupt. They were a law unto themselves.
Ace Magashule indicated that some of you were sitting in the National Party, making those particular laws and protecting the policemen while they were doing all those wrong things. You know that you gave them a fund to kill Africans, black people? I pity ...
No, no, Madam Deputy Chair.
Hon Watson ...
No, Madam Deputy Chair, the speaker cannot look at me and say: "Do you know you gave them a fund?" [Laughter.] In any case, which Bloemfontein meeting is he talking about?
Hon Watson, and those who were not in Bloemfontein, and even people who are seated here right now, at no stage has the hon member said "Watson". I then say, please, no further interjections. Continue, hon Matila; keep to the point and go on.
Deputy Chair, maybe let ... But what is wrong?
Continue, hon Matila.
Deputy Chair, as the ANC we are saying ...
Hon Matila, continue and go straight to the point.
Deputy Chair, as the ANC we say we support this particular Bill ...
Madam Deputy Chair, can I just get a point of clarity?
Just hold on.
Just on a point of clarity, both you and the speaker referred to Bloemfontein. When were we in Bloemfontein?
Is it a new matter, Mr Watson?
Yes, I want to know which meeting in Bloemfontein you are referring to, Madam Deputy Chair.
The last sitting in Bloemfontein. [Interjections.]
That is the Free State.
The Free State is not Bloemfontein, Madam Deputy Chair.
Continue, hon Matila.
Thank you for your correction, Mr Watson; it is in Qwaqwa. Deputy Chair ...
Continue. Your time is up.
I must indicate, Deputy Chair, I am sorry about this, I must indicate that, as the ANC ...
You have five minutes.
We will continue and we will make sure that this Bill is implemented, even in the Western Cape. Thank you.
No, no, you have time; you have five minutes.
Deputy Chairperson, the purpose of this particular Bill ... [Interjections.]
Hon Deputy Chair, hon Watson is not as handsome as I am.
I don't know about that. [Laughter.]
Hon Deputy Chair, is the member prepared to take a question?
Yes.
Hon Deputy Chair, through you to the hon member: Does the hon member know in which province eThekwini is situated? [Laughter.]
Continue, hon Matila. You don't have to answer that.
eThekwini is in KwaZulu-Natal. eThekwini was previously Durban.
Deputy Chair, this Bill makes provision for establishing an Independent Police Investigative Directorate and regulating the functions of the directorate. The Bill provides for the establishment of a management committee and a consultative forum, and their respective powers. It also provides for reporting obligations and co-operation from members of the SA Police Service and municipal police services.
The essential changes that the Bill seeks to effect are summarised as follows. The directorate will be known as the Independent Police Investigative Directorate. The directorate has a specific and clearly defined mandate.
It is no longer complaints-orientated but investigation-focused. The Bill compels the police to comply with the directorate's disciplinary recommendations. The responsibility to monitor police compliance with the Domestic Violence Act was removed and transferred to the Civilian Secretariat for Police Service.
The Bill creates clear lines of co-operation between the directorate and the municipal police and the SAPS, as well as between the directorate and the Civilian Secretariat for Police Service, and provides a mechanism for referral of matters from the directorate and Civilian Secretariat for Police Service.
The Bill provides for the establishment of a Civilian Secretariat for Police Service in the Republic in accordance with section 208 of the Constitution. The Civilian Secretariat for Police Service functions under the direction of the Minister. Furthermore, the Bill defines the objects, functions and powers of the Civilian Secretariat for Police Service, and, for this purpose, aligns the operations of the secretariat in the national and provincial spheres of government.
The Bill reorganises the secretariat into an effective and efficient organ of state. It regulates the appointment, duties and functions, powers and the removal from office of the secretary for the police and heads of provincial secretariats. Let me conclude and the rest will be read later.
In conclusion, the Select Committee on Security and Constitutional Development, having considered these particular Bills, moves that we adopt these Bills. I thank you. [Applause.]
Hon members, I'm pleading with you. Can everybody in this Council be very attentive because we are calling back the Deputy Minister. [Applause.]
Deputy Chairperson, Members of Parliament, and all parties who supported the fight against crime, to support this legislation is to support the fight against crime. If you don't support it, it means you are comfortable with the level of crime that is taking place.
I would like to apologise on behalf of my Ministry for raising the blood pressure of some members in the House with these pieces of legislation.
As I have said, my time is very limited. I just want to thank hon Beyleveldt from the DA, who is concerned about the independence of the two structures. I have taken note of your concerns, and we are going to make sure that they indeed remain independent.
Hon Mokgobi, thank you very much for the political induction that you gave the House. Chairperson of the portfolio committee, and members of the ANC, thank you very much for giving your guidance with regard to these two pieces of legislation. To the Western Cape MEC, and the chairperson of the committee in the Western Cape, unfortunately, when we legislate, we legislate for the country and not for a certain province. We legislate for everyone, as government.
This Bill is about fighting crime effectively and not about giving powers to provinces to do whatever they want to do. It is about fighting crime in this country. Secondly, I would like to say let's concern ourselves with fighting crime and not with fighting one another to keep our power. It is not about that, but it is about fighting crime. That is the purpose of these two pieces of legislation.
This piece of legislation deals with the police. It does not deal with defence. Defence and the police are two different structures with two different mandates. So, there is no way they can be the same. They can't be the same and they won't be the same.
To my friend over there, I told you that you are my friend and, indeed, you did attest to that. Hon Makhubela from Cope, I would like to thank Cope for supporting that.
...abazi bona ukuthi mina nawe sivelaphi na? [... they do not know where we are coming from.]
I have listened to two or three people who mentioned the issue of "shoot to kill". To shoot to kill was never a policy of the ANC, but we are saying that if the police find themselves confronted by such a situation and an accident happened in such a way that someone dies, that person shouldn't be the police member. That is what we are saying. Thank you very much, Deputy Chair, and thanks for the support. [Applause.]
Debate concluded.
Question put: That the Independent Police Investigative Directorate Bill be agreed to.
That concludes the debate. I shall now put the question in respect of the First Order. The question is that the Bill be agreed to.
In accordance with Rule 71, I shall first allow provinces the opportunity to make their declaration of vote, if they so wish. Before I continue, are all your cards in, or where they are not working, can the members be supplied with the voting papers?
I now call upon the provinces to vote: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West and the Western Cape. Have all the provinces voted? Voting will close. Could the Table staff submit the results?
Hon members, as we all understand the ruling, the Northern Cape has not sent in the relevant paper. So, in that case, it means then that the Northern Cape vote will not be accepted. Can the Northern Cape make a follow-up on that, that the mandate was not received?
Deputy Chair, I will definitely make a follow-up. It is the first time I come across something like this.
I think it's a delay on the part of the provincial officers. But right now, in this case, I can't accept the Northern Cape vote.
This means that out of the nine, the Western Cape has not voted in favour. They have abstained, which has left us with eight. Now we are cutting off the Northern Cape and we are left with seven. The policy allows us then to declare the Bill accepted. [Applause.]
IN FAVOUR: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West.
AGAINST: Western Cape.
Bill accordingly agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
Madam Deputy Chair, on a point of order ...
Yes, sir!
There is no way that this House can vote for two Bills at the same time.
No, no! I am correcting that. We are now going to be voting for the second one. Thank you.
Then we must start afresh if you are ...
We are now going to vote for the second one! Thank you.
But you didn't announce that we are voting for the first one.
I am announcing it, Mr Watson, thank you very much.
Now, can we vote for the second one. I shall now put the question in respect of the Second Order. The question is that the Bill be agreed to.
Question put: That the Civilian Secretariat for Police Service Bill be agreed to.
In accordance with Rule 71, I shall first allow provinces an opportunity to make their declaration of vote, if they so wish.
We shall now proceed to the voting on the question. I shall do this in alphabetical order per province. Delegation heads must please insert their cards.
Before I call the vote, please press button number one to confirm your presence. There should be a light flashing. If not, the Chamber staff will assist you.
We now come to the voting. When I call the name of the province, the delegation heads will vote by pressing button number four for those who vote in favour, button number two for those who vote against, and button number three for those who abstain.
I now call the provinces to vote: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape? [Interjections.]
I just want to know whether the second Bill's mandate has been received.
Has it? No, ok, so it has not been received.
North West and Western Cape? Have all the provinces voted? In case there is any member who has mistakenly pressed the incorrect button, he or she now has an opportunity to press the correct button. Voting will close. Table staff, could you submit the results?
IN FAVOUR: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West.
AGAINST: Western Cape.
Bill accordingly agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.