House Chairperson, hon Ministers, Deputy Ministers, members and comrades, we are glad to have the opportunity to report to the House the work of the Ad hoc Committee on Co-ordinated Oversight on Service Delivery. My job today is to request you to accept our invitation of reading the report.
We believe that one of the best legacies that demonstrated the injunction "working together to ensure the delivery of quality service to communities" is the recent World Cup, how it was conducted and in particular the role of the host cities and the municipalities of the host cities. In addition to that, others, although they were not host cities, mobilised the population there to participate actively in the work of the World Cup.
It is an example of the potential that exists in the country that each municipality and us at different levels of government can tap into and use to advance the interest of the majority of the people in our country. This report is a small contribution to that quality of work. The terms of reference were that we should conduct public hearings in Parliament and in all nine provinces; conduct co-ordinated oversight visits in rural and urban areas; and table a report consisting of clear and achievable recommendations with a proposed implementation plan.
This is what we are doing today. We have done the job and compiled the report itself in addition to its nine chapters that outline our assessment, observations and conclusions including recommendations. We have listed the specific municipalities that we visited. We, of course, couldn't visit as many of them as we would have liked to.
We also listed the number of stakeholders that we interacted with, including the unfolding of the media campaign that accompanied our work. This point is particularly important because of the role the media played in this particular effort. The report also contains an addendum, a record of the public hearings in the provinces so that you can get a written feel of those interactions. This is crucial for purposes of your constituency work. If you come from some of these areas, we present to you what came out of those with recommendations that often people themselves made about this.
The recommendations are not only in what we say at the end of the report, but are also contained in the specific areas, as we have done in Durban city, Umsunduzi for example. We give an account of what happened in those meetings, what came out of it and what we see as an appropriate recommendation in that area. So, that is why we recommend strongly that members should take an interest in going through the entire report itself, to look at areas in which we are making a recommendation. Part of the responsibility we have is to take them forward.
We divided ourselves into three teams led by hon Stone Sizani and hon Mandla Mandela, and each of us visited three provinces as teams. Our visits were preceded by public advertising through print and electronic media in all official languages - this we did during and after the programme ended. Understandably, public engagement was robust, both on air and in meetings. By opening such a space an opportunity, Parliament received a significant platform to clarify its role, but people themselves welcomed the opportunity to air their views very robustly, as I said.
We were also accompanied by members of committees of the legislature in some of these provinces, but on not all of the visits were we accompanied by these committees in other provinces. Those who came played a very important role because we acted together and they were able to take on board and provide responses to some of the issues that the public raised.
In addition, we were also accompanied by officials from national departments. These played an equally crucial role. They were spot on, and some of the questions they responded to immediately. Some overnight enquiries were made and the information was brought to meetings of stakeholders the following day. So, in the exercise and during the process itself, we delivered information and things were clarified to people, and the communities appreciated that a lot.
Those officials played a crucial role. We also acted as part of the process. We acted on the spot, on issues that were raised by both municipalities and individuals by writing to provincial departments, communicating with them, raising issues that people were raising and expecting responses to.
There are areas in the country where we received very positive responses promptly. These were welcomed by the municipalities and communities in those areas because of the value of such intervention. In other words, in the process of doing the work of enquiry itself, the effort to communicate produced useful results.
We understood that the reasons for protests were complex and different. We also remembered that the 15-year review of the third administration pointed out in advance that, if things went at the pace at which they were going, we were likely to have problems - partly explaining why in some areas some of these problems occurred.
It is the political issues that require urgent attention. The interface of politics and administration, the quality and frequency of public participation, responsiveness to citizens' issues override all factors as explanation of protests. In addition to that, poor conflict management impacts naturally on the running of the councils and the relationship between different spheres of government.
People reported that protests were their last resort - they would ordinarily not have wanted to do so. They said that they often did not see movement on the issues they had raised concerns about. We understood that, should those issues have been addressed in time, often only by communication, things would not have turned as ugly as they did in some of the areas - except, of course, in instances where there was clear political contestation, infighting and campaigning by others who would like to replace those in office.
Municipal tenders, including provincial tenders, housing allocation, management, shortages, water and sanitation, electricity, poor financial management and corruption were issues that emerged as some of the reasons stated as secondary reasons for protests. Although people in some instances had similar problems, they didn't protest because they had responses given to them by officials and councillors in those areas, including departments at provincial level.
In those instances where there were no protests, that would have been the explanation. The difference was made by the active interaction between those who had information and those who could respond to issues on time. The issue of responsiveness was a key one. The issues that were raised were crucial and important. They were not in themselves the major reasons for the protests.
Our recommendations cover areas of governance, areas of anticorruption work, service delivery issues, issues of the Integrated Development Plan, IDP, housing, sanitation, water and electricity, and settlement. The Integrated Development Plans are crucial, but we think that the emerging work of the planning commission is obviously going to be crucial in providing us with a long-term response. We hope that we will be provided with responses that are sustainable, with what we believe is government working together, and that the planning commission's work will make a big difference if the commission's work takes on board the work that is expressed in the Integrated Development Plans.
The implementation of the local government turnaround strategy, whilst important, assumes also that the entire government itself as well as provincial and national departments need to change in a manner that reinforces the positive initiative that is already under way. So that together, these three spheres of government produce the quality of service that we are talking about.
Issues of municipal capacity, financial management and communication are crucial; there is no doubt about it. We also appreciate the support we received from councillors and municipal officials, including administrators in municipalities that had administrators running them. They have played a very important role in shedding light on issues - from here we didn't quite see until we were closely working with them there.
We also appreciate the support given by the technical team of Parliament. They have played an important role. We want to recommend an increased capacity in that area of work. It will make a huge difference in the amount and quality of work that we generate as committees that are doing this kind of work.
Our committee was composed of different committees and that was an important and significant initiative by Parliament-just like the committee that went around the country to look at the state of readiness for 2010, which was composed of different sectoral committees. Similarly, this committee was a very important forum for working together to produce the best results for quality services on the ground.
We hope that some of the recommendations, on which members will touch while speaking today, will shed some light on what we can do. Thank you very much.
Chairperson, hon Minister, Deputy Ministers, hon members, it is almost one year since the Ad hoc Committee on Co-ordinated Oversight on Service Delivery was established to investigate the underlying reasons for the often violent protests across the country.
The issues that led to many of the protests then, still existed during our oversight visits and, sadly, still exist even as we debate this report this afternoon. I must also say, right at the outset, that in my opinion, very little that we have learnt from our visits and interaction with communities as to the reasons for such protests was new or unknown to the majority, if not all of us. As noted in the report, almost all major problems with service delivery revolved around noncompliance of relevant legislation, poor governance, lack of accountability and lack of meaningful communication between government and communities, and even between different spheres of government.
Housing was a particular challenging issue and was raised without exception in all municipalities that we visited. Ironically, it wasn't always about the nondelivery of houses and long waiting lists. Where housing was delivered, it was generally of a poor quality and, as mentioned in our report, this particular programme appears to be a breeding ground for corrupt activities. In most municipalities there appears to be a general lack of proper planning and in some of the poorest communities, where some delivery of houses did take place and where many people find themselves without decent shelter, we came across houses that were either not completed, or completed and standing empty for some reason.
In the Thulamela municipal area there were unoccupied houses which were completed in 1998. I almost want to say that there can be no greater injustice than this, where scarce resources - both land and finances - were actually spent or used, but nobody is enjoying the benefit of that expenditure. Sorry, I shouldn't say nobody. The houses may not be inhabited, but I suppose a builder and perhaps an official or two, somewhere along the line, benefited. The fact remains, a homeless beneficiary somewhere should have been homeless no more.
What became abundantly clear is the fact that many of these protests could have been prevented. Now some of you among us may question this statement. However, very many issues raised were of such a nature that, if we had functioning municipalities, staffed by competent people appointed on merit, they would have been addressed as a matter of course during the daily service delivery activities that a municipality is obligated to do anyway.
We found, in many instances, that the most basic task to be undertaken by a functioning municipality was not done. Granted, in some instances it may have been due to a lack of resources or infrastructure, but even where these were not a major obstacle, there was still a problem with the delivery of such services.
For example, in the Ehlanzeni District Municipality, we found that there was a lack of clarity of the role of the members of the mayoral committee. In the Mkhondo Local Municipality, divisions within the elected political representatives, where one group supported the mayor and another aligned themselves with the speaker, led to paralysis in governance in that municipality.
In a municipality like Buffalo City, where apparently nine councillors have still not been sworn in, it was reported that almost half of the councillors were determined to render the council dysfunctional. These are issues where leadership in these municipalities has broken down and is nonexistent. The fact that these paralysing situations were and are still allowed to continue, points to a problem with leadership that goes right to the top of our political and governance structures.
Wat vir my baie waardevol was omtrent hierdie oorsigbesoeke, was die feit dat amptenare van verskeie departemente ons publieke vergaderings bygewoon het. By hierdie vergaderings is dikwels probleme onder ons aandag gebring waar die oplossing onmiddellik gedentifiseer is en waar die voorsitter van ons groep voorstelle kon maak aan die betrokke amptenare om die probleem op te los. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.) [What was very valuable to me with regard to these oversight visits was the fact that officials from various departments attended our public meetings. Often at these meetings problems were brought to our attention where solutions could immediately be identified and where the chairperson of our group could put forward suggestions to the officials concerned to solve the problem.]
A particular instance that comes to mind is a school where a portion of the roof was blown off in a storm. When we visited the school, which were some weeks after the storm and subsequent damage, the learners were still being taught in the exposed classrooms and teaching was suspended whenever it rained. The chairperson instructed officials from Public Works to take steps to attend to the problem right there and then. However, why problems like that have to wait until an intervention takes place, defies comprehension.
It is, therefore, with regret that my suggestion that specific resolutions identified at these meetings be recorded in our report was not adopted and therefore cannot be tracked to determine whether they have indeed been implemented. I thank you. [Applause.]
Madam Chairperson, on a point of order: Is it in order that, apart from the hon Minister for Human Settlements - we appreciate his presence - there are no other Ministers present during this very important debate? The Minister for Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs had an unfortunate event, but not even his deputy is here.
That is not a point of order. [Interjections.]
Chairperson, can't you postpone the debate until later so that we can have this important debate in the presence of Ministers?
There was no point of order. The programme has been decided on at the Chief Whips' Forum and by the programme committee. Whoever sits there had to propose that.
Chairperson, Ministers and Members of the House, Cope welcomes the report of the Ad hoc Committee on Co-ordinated Oversight on Service Delivery. Parliament has a major role to play in ensuring that the provisions of the Constitution are met.
The protests that befell the country in the recent past have been about the failure of municipalities to deliver services to millions of our people - the most basic services like water, sanitation, roads, electricity and housing. How can such important constitutional obligations be given to structures that lack capacity and political will? It is no secret that these structures are known to be terribly undercapacitated and often lack strategic and administrative vision. How do you expect them to function effectively and deliver services effectively by taking over such huge responsibilities without the funds and budgets needed? These capacity problems have led to some municipalities returning unspent funds to the Treasury annually.
Cope discovered, in a vast majority of municipalities we visited, that in some instances there is only one or no engineers employed, and the town planners have poor or no knowledge of town planning, because they were party-political deployees out of their depth!
South Africa is one of the driest countries in the world, and we are running out of the little amount of water we have left. Our water purification systems have been found wanting and outdated, such that the water we end up with has been dangerously contaminated even for human consumption. Cope dreads what the outcome of this is going to be. Government promised people that the bucket system would be phased out by now, yet people in many communities still make use of the bucket system.
In view of the water crisis that we are facing in the country, the Water Research Commission and the Water Institute of South Africa need to be invited regularly to the portfolio committee to advise Parliament on the magnitude of this problem and alert us to the red flags.
The Minister of Human Settlements has recently been bearing down on renegade developers whose developments to these poor communities cost the government over R40 billion to destroy and rebuild sloppy developments. This calls for stricter scrutiny of the role of housing inspectors and bodies such as the National Home Builders Registration Council, NHBRC, who are supposed to monitor and inspect houses before they are finalised.
Cope supports the report and calls on this House to ensure that the recommendation and implementation plan proposed by the committee be accepted and put into action by this House. Thank you. [Applause.]
Chairperson and colleagues, I think the country was caught napping last year. The ANC had a very successful election campaign, and they thought everything was hunky-dory. Suddenly they were met with lots of protests where people were very angry with them. That was a big shock. The ANC had to scramble to action. They sent delegations here, there and everywhere.
The Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, Cogta, entity's offices in Pretoria sent all the senior managers out to see what was going on. I think some were belated, because it was only in September that Parliament decided to get into the action as well and establish that committee.
Today, a year later, we have the report of this committee and are asked to approve it. The real question is: Is that report of real value? Furthermore, is it worth the money, the very considerable resource spent in human and financial resources? The answer is an unequivocal, yes. Unfortunately, it is not quite that simple. There are a couple of sides to this story.
On the one hand, the document - which is very lengthy, with many chapters, as the Chair has said-enumerates a litany of problems in local government and municipalities, and makes a whole hosts of recommendations. Most of what we saw and heard was completely unacceptable. We all accepted that. Some of them were really terrible and shocking. It was necessary and we agree that it should be recorded.
My team leader was the hon Sizani. I think he did an excellent job. He was an excellent team leader and I would like to thank him for his position there. I must say that, if you regard the recommendations we made, most of them were fine and there were no problems.
We are hard-pressed to say that they should not be supported, because they are sensible, and speak to the issues. To that extent, I agree that the committee has served its purpose and all is hunky-dory. However, on the other hand, one should ask how much of what we have learnt was really new. Basically, everybody had a pretty good idea of what was going on.
How much of what we learnt was different to what the NCOP proceeds with every week; what the provincial legislatures deal with all the time; and the ruling party teams that were sent out saw? It was all the same thing. We just got more of it because we spent more time there. So, there was nothing particularly new or surprising. It was actually very good that we recorded it.
I have a couple of problems. Firstly, I think that, unfortunately, the committee failed to address the question it was tasked with. It was tasked with establishing the primary and secondary causes of the protests and to make recommendations. What it did was to put forth a 60-page long list of what went wrong, with recommendations. It did not explicitly say that the protests were caused by a, b, or c. That was sloppy and rigorous work by the committee. Nonetheless, the litany of ills, as they are recorded in the ANC municipalities, are now, by and large, very good.
I do not want to reject the recommendations, but I should say that several of them were problematic. There were certain recommendations made which inexplicably have not been included, despite the fact that we and the DA asked for them. The one which was mentioned now was that this House should establish a mechanism to make sure that the recommendations were followed up on then and there.
Why is that not in the report? It is an obvious thing. We visited two municipalities per province and a long list of problems and recommendations were made, but they are not in the report. Why not? So that was a weakness, and I really regret that it was not there.
Secondly, there were also other recommendations, for example, section 57, which deals with managers. It was problematic. We have a situation where the municipal system we had was the interface between the administration and the politicians, through the municipal manager and the mayor.
The report recommended that the section 57 managers should now report politically to councillors seated as portfolio heads. That was a very problematic issue. You are really twiddling the model in a way that is problematic. Depending on how it was implemented, it could cause a lot of trouble. We are not happy with that.
There was also a proposal for a local government service. I am not quite sure what a single local government service means, because the ANC always seems to be talking about a single public service for all three spheres. Now we have a single sphere for local government. Whatever it means, since it was not very clear, because it was very well scripted. It does intrude, if we implement it, upon the autonomy of the municipalities to deal with their own internal affairs, including staffing matters.
We do have problems, but having said that, we support the report and thank everybody for doing it. I thank you. [Applause.]
Hon House Chairperson, hon Ministers, hon Deputy Ministers, hon members, guests and friends, most importantly, the South African people did not exist so that we can hold political positions. We exist to direct state resources in the best interest of the South African people.
It is very important for South Africans to know this, because all politics are about service delivery. The report of the Ad hoc Committee on Co- ordinated Oversight and Service Delivery states:
The foundation of democracy is primarily the ability of citizens to participate in their own affairs and not only limit the people's involvement in voting every five years. Since the advent of democracy in South Africa there are many forums and structures that have been established to encourage public participation.
There are numerous constraints confronting these structures which include resource availability and support. But the most critical in making these structures functional and yield the desired result is the actual participation of the people.
On 8 January 2010, on the occasion of the 98th anniversary of the founding of the ANC, its national executive committee stated that:
We must build a state that is democratic, people-driven and people- centred and we must pursue a sustained development, based on an inclusive growth path. It should be a state that unites South Africans around a vision of sustainable development and mobilises them to act as midwives to the birth of a truly united, nonracial, nonsexist, democratic and prosperous society.
The principle of a people-driven and people-centred state is not a new idea that was thought out in some committee just before the elections. The principle of Power to the People is the core of the ANC ideology. Former President of the ANC, Oliver Tambo, on the occasion of the 60th anniversary of the founding of the ANC, on 8 January 1972 said:
Sixty years is a very long time for fruitless struggle for a freedom in an era in which the government of the people, by the people and for the people is an acceptable definition of democracy.
Then on the occasion of the 72nd anniversary of the founding of the ANC, on 8 January in 1984 former President Oliver Tambo said:
All revolutions are about state power. Ours is no exception. The slogan, Power to the People, means one thing and one thing only; it means we seek to destroy the power of apartheid tyranny and replace it with the popular power with a government whose authority derives from the will of all of our people, both black and white.
The question that begs asking is why is South Africa not participating in the running of its own country? Why are you not involving yourselves in school governing bodies, hospital management committees, community policing forums and ward committees? These structures exist for one reason and one reason only, so that the people shall govern. South Africa, you owe it to yourselves, your children and the future generations to get informed, organised and active in the running of this country.
Bob Marley sang in the redemption song, "Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery, none but ourselves can free our minds." In the context of this speech, the emancipation of your minds is around the understanding, the ideology and the policies of the political parties here in the Fourth Parliament - policies like the ANC community participation policy, which is derived from the ANC ideology, as previously stated.
An example of other kinds of policies that political parties have today is the ANC labour policy, which is expressed through legislation, the Basic Conditions of Employment Act, the Labour Relations Act and many more. Other parties have policies too. The DA also has policies around labour:
The DA will introduce a longer probationary period in which employers can dismiss under-performing workers without penalty.
Clearly that is a policy which is not in the best interest of the workers here in the Western Cape or anywhere else in South Africa. One wonders from which ideology a policy like that originated. Then again, a party that has reinvented itself more times than Madonna is very unlikely to have any consistent ideological foundation. So come on South Africa, get informed. [Applause.]
Getting organised is not as hard as it sounds. In fact, I am requesting that you, South Africa, go and speak to the person in charge of your nearest police station, the school your children attend, the hospital and your local government and tell them that Parliament has requested that you should find out about ... [Interjections.]
Order, hon member! Is that a point of order?
Chair, I am wondering if the hon member is in the correct debate. We are talking about an oversight report here and he is talking about policies.
Hon member, can you please allow the member to continue? Continue, hon member.
Parliament has requested that you find out about how to join the local community policing forums, school governing bodies, hospital management committees, and the ward committees where you live. Become an activist in one or more of these structures. In order for South Africa to be a people-centred and people-driven progressive developmental state, you, the people, must get involved.
Without the people's activism and involvement, this country would not have progressed from an oppressive apartheid system to a progressive democracy. Without the people's activism and involvement this country would never have hosted one of the most successful World Cups. However, it should not only be when there is a crisis or a national celebration that South Africa gets involved.
Involve yourselves in the day to day running of this country, crime prevention, health care issues, your child's education, in the area where you live and where your children play. You do not exist so that I can hold a political position. Without you, South Africa, a people-centred, people- driven progressive developmental state would not materialise.
The Constitution has numerous sections protecting your rights to govern. There are many laws that create structures enabling you to govern. The only thing left to do is for you, South Africa, to step up and live the ideology that the people shall govern, because working together we can do more. I thank you. [Applause.]
Chairperson, the ID would like to welcome the report and recommendations of the Ad hoc Committee on Co-ordinated Oversight on Service Delivery. Government has allocated over R2 million to this ad hoc committee to hold these public hearings around the country. This committee had the crucial task of helping Parliament better understand the root causes of service delivery protests.
However, the ID was extremely disappointed to find that only a handful of councillors and members of the provincial legislature, MPLs, actually bothered to attend the meetings. This lack of interest makes one understand exactly why voters are losing patience with them. Other public representatives were reluctant to speak openly on causes of bottlenecks in service delivery.
During our visits, it was sad to see children playing in fields of material and human waste; budgets unspent because of a shortage of project managers; the bucket system still in existence in many informal settlements in spite of a government promise to eradicate it by 2007 and, finally, a complete lack of sporting and other facilities.
Most disturbing for me were the many stories of councillors making empty promises to the community, while also failing to attend any public meetings. It seems that some public representatives are more interested in stealing from the poor than serving them.
We also visited Doringbach here in Cape Town, where 2 800 informal dwellings have been erected on private property. Although these structures are being serviced by the city, this does not include electricity, which is a basic right. We applaud and welcome the move by the City of Cape Town to pass a bylaw that will deal with the personal safety of residents on private property.
In the case of Renosterberg Local Municipality, we saw that interns had been employed to run the finance department. Unsurprisingly, the department received a disclaimer.
I would like to thank the chairperson, hon Tsenoli, and the entire committee for their dedication. I think my colleague, hon Tsenoli, as a philosopher, will agree with me that it was once said that a fool elected by a fool will be led by a fool but the biggest fool is the fool who elected that fool. I thank you. [Applause.]
Chairperson, the report before us is comprehensive, and at the outset we would like to congratulate the committee and those members of government and civil society that participated in the entire process leading up to this report. There is a Swahili saying that says, "You can't kill a louse with one finger." Working together really means a lot to all of us. We appreciate the effort that has gone into this process, but I want to express the sincere hope that this is merely the beginning of a nationwide survey, since this report only covers a small number of areas.
The country has witnessed many years of increasingly violent and widespread service delivery protests by impoverished communities. Any effort by Parliament to investigate and attempt to understand the underlying reasons for these protests must be welcomed.
Indeed, this report is a huge step in the right direction if we can get away from the inflammatory and unsubstantiated claims of a third force behind the protests, which is put forward as a dubious justification for unleashing the intelligence forces on our citizens.
That there is a political element to these protests cannot be denied. Regrettably, the report does not dwell on the fact that angry local communities' legitimate expectations usually relate to ruling party councillors and politicians making unfulfilled promises and failing to provide basic services.
An honest assessment of service delivery protests must also acknowledge that protests are often, if not always, instigated by the ruling party's own alliance partners, or propagated by competing factions within the ANC. Every party is entitled to managing its internal discipline as it sees fit, but the ruling party should not allow its internal conflicts to affect service delivery.
Notwithstanding the above, the UDM concurs with the broad areas of concern identified by the report with regards to governance, corruption, service delivery, local economic development and communication.
At the heart of these service delivery protests lies the issue of legitimacy. It is our duty as public representatives to ensure that democracy remains healthy in this country. We cannot ignore the threat to the legitimacy of democracy that is posed by masses of South Africans not receiving the most basic of services.
Hope can be a powerful commodity, as the birth of democracy here has demonstrated. But shattered hope can be an equally powerful and negative force. We face a rapidly closing window for delivering on the hope that the advent of democracy gave to the impoverished masses of our country. I thank you.
Hon Chairperson, hon Ministers and Deputy Ministers, hom members, the ANC, in preparation for the 2009 national and provincial elections, developed a comprehensive policy framework that deals with the state of health in the country and a turnaround strategy to deal with the challenges. Out of this policy framework the ANC Subcommittee of Education and Health developed a ten-point plan that became the foundation for the department in its turnaround strategy. The department adopted this plan in 2009 - a plan that speaks directly to the experiences the ad hoc committee had during its provincial visits.
The visit highlighted the centrality of the revitalisation of the primary health care system. As in most public hearings, people complained about inaccessibility of health services and time spent waiting for an ambulance when needed. The policy framework and ten-point programme addresses the need to expand access to and coverage of primary health care services, as well as the incorporation of other priority programmes. It speaks to the training of community nurses who work together with community health workers in order to broaden the scope of their work.
The ANC policy framework and ten-point plan speak to the efficiency and management of health care systems. The plan speaks to the needs, it quantifies the totality of health care needs and ensures that those who are graduating in the different health sciences and disciplines meet the challenges we face. It ensures that the necessary clinical training, infrastructure and capacity at higher education institutions are in place and addressed by the Appropriation Bill.
The debate on the further training of nurses and whether we should not begin to restructure the nursing graduate course and relook the nursing diploma, is informed by some of the challenges that the ad hoc committee experienced during its visit. This is informed by the need to deepen experiential learning and deepen theory and practice with more hands practically available to carry out the work. Equally, the requisite skills and capacity speak to how we deal with internships and their proper supervision.
During the visit of the ad hoc committee the revitalisation of infrastructure was a critical point of discussion. Part of the ten-point plan to turn around health speaks to the hospital revitalisation programme and the role that different stakeholders can play in this. Again, from experiences during our visit, the need for a review of aspects of sanitation strategy became clear. National standards and norms remain a huge challenge and, clearly, municipalities are still struggling with internal systems that don't effectively deal with the totality of needs for sanitation.
The Khayelitsha public hearings revealed a lack of water and sanitation which poses a serious threat to health. Residents are compelled to use communal toilets which were not regularly maintained. Drainage systems are also often blocked. It was even worse in the Harare area where residents use the open toilet system, covering themselves with blankets to hide from people passing by in the street. The lack of decent toilets and water has an adverse effect on the health of residents, exposing them to illnesses such as malaria, TB and other infectious diseases.
A central challenge revealed by the oversight visit was the lack of provision of basic services in informal settlements. Health facilities, clinics and community health centres are critical, and this reaffirms government's acceleration of the delivery of health infrastructure to improve the quality of health care services to the communities through public-private partnerships.
The ANC health policy and ten-point plan put in place the strengthening of the health information system. This is informed by the experiences of the ad hoc committee in most public hearings and of complaints about loss of folders, other key data and specimens. The ANC health policy framework speaks to accelerating the delivery of health technology and information technology infrastructure so that there is ease of accessibility to patients' records.
The same strategy applies in the case of shortage or out of stock medicines. Information technology systems have assisted tremendously in being able to trace where to access medicines rather than to depend on paper-based information. This has minimised paperwork, simplified the management information system and provided far better and quicker service delivery to patients.
Any system is only as good as the human resource capacity that has to run it. The ten-point plan addresses the improved human resource planning and development and management training. In addressing the scarcity of doctors, the national human resource planning framework for health commenced in 2009. The plan draws upon historic work that had already been carried out by the Health Sciences Review Committee in 2007, which developed interventions to strengthen clinical training in higher education institutions. It also addressed factors associated with increasing the number of health professional graduates.
Clearly, the alignment of organograms must be informed by the needs of a given environment and the programmes that the department is required to carry out in terms of the Constitution and policy. Therefore, planning, monitoring and evaluation are critical to ensuring performance.
Each province has developed a provincial human resources health plan and these are being aligned to long-term plans known as service transformation plans and the ten-point plan. With these provincial plans, an assessment has been done of workforce challenges.
Central to the health policy framework is the mobilisation of communities for better health care and environmental protection. This strategy is underpinned by the basics of the health education and awareness programme, using hygiene and morals as key levers. The continued mobilisation of communities on HIV and Aids programmes has been a very important achievement.
In conclusion, what the oversight visit has taught us is that the solutions and answers to the challenges we were confronted with around health are contained in the ANC's comprehensive Manifesto Policy Framework and ten- point plan. What we need to do is to intensify measures to improve equitable access to health care provision. We must also involve communities in service delivery improvement to ensure adequate supply of appropriate medicines and other supplies, adequate safety for health institutions and health workers as well as the monitoring of the general cleanliness of facilities and the quality of care.
The first clause of the Freedom Charter says that the people shall govern. Now we are governing and all of us must govern, regardless of political affiliation. I thank you. [Applause.]
Madam Chairperson, there are many cynics in the country who argue that Parliament should not have to set up a committee and send nearly 40 MPs to nine provinces to establish the causes of service delivery protests - many of them very violent - that have plagued our residential areas in recent times. The sceptics argue that the whole exercise was mere window dressing, a waste of taxpayers' money, and that nothing will come of it.
This negative posture becomes even more worrying when one takes into account a finding by D Powell, in an article in The Magazine of Local Government of October 2009, entitled, "What is wrong with local government?" I quote:
Local government is the least trusted of all public institutions in the country and that has been the case since the first municipal elections in 2000.
The message is quite clear. We dare not prove the cynics right, because many of our people feel that they are being left behind and they do not believe that the government hears their pleas for improvement in their living conditions. In order to restore some of the trust that the people have lost in local government and in Parliament, it is very important that the work of the ad hoc committee does not become yet another exercise in futility. To fail the people will be to deepen their frustrations and anger, and to erode even further whatever little faith they may still have in local government.
It is important to remind this House of the many individuals and organisations that came to this Parliament when we invited them to do so, to tell us about their problems. We have to remember how seriously the people took our call, as manifested in their sincerity and their faith in our ability to redress their anguish as they engaged with us in the many public gatherings we attended with them.
How can we redeem ourselves? Firstly, we must recognise that party politics, a core element in democracy, is the most divisive of all institutions in a democracy. However, while we still have the current system, we must strive to take party politics out of municipal administration. How distressing it was to learn that one municipality was dysfunctional and had been placed under administration because of interparty rivalries and, even worse, because of factionalism within the governing party. In one instance, a house of a former mayor was torched, allegedly by members of her own party. This act of violence has not done anything to enhance the quality of life of the people involved.
To ensure that a municipality can deliver on its mandate, local government must employ people for their skills, experience, potential and, most importantly, their fitness for purpose. It is a very simple mandate, involving efficient, prompt, top quality service delivery and clean governance, with officials held accountable at the pain of consequences.
I do believe that all of us in this House now acknowledge that cadre deployment and jobs for incompetent pals and close relatives have failed the country. A new approach is needed, where we can employ the best skills we have from all our people in this country, regardless of their political party affiliation.
Colleagues have touched on some of our experiences during oversight visits around the country. Two incidents stand out for me. They show what could happen when we stop caring about the people we claim to serve and let greed drive our behaviour.
During a visit to the Eastern Cape, our team went to the township of Komga in the Great Kei Local Municipality. There we saw RDP houses that were said to have been built around 1998-99. The four-walled structures were built of very poor quality material, and had only one door and two small windows, one at the back and one in front. The houses have no flooring and no dividing walls. I could not help but ask myself how we could do that to our people.
On a trip to Nala Municipality in the Free State we visited Monyakeng Township. The Monyakeng sewer treatment works was being constructed and yet household toilets were connected to the water system. The waste had nowhere to flow but into the street, causing very serious health hazards for the residents. One grandma called us to her house to show us her brand new blocked toilet. How could anyone do something like that to our people?
In conclusion, Madam Chairperson, this House and the Minister for Co- operative Governance and Traditional Affairs must ensure that the work of the Ad hoc Committee on Co-ordinated Oversight on Service Delivery produces positive outcomes for all the people of our communities, particularly for those areas with serious problems which were visited by the committee. We must restore trust and confidence in our municipalities. They are the forefront of local administration. Their success is the success of this nation. There is no more time to waste. I thank you. [Applause.]
Hon House Chairperson, hon Minister and Deputy Minister and hon members, the Portfolio Committee on Social Development was afforded the opportunity to be part of the Ad hoc Committee on Co-ordinated Oversight on Service Delivery. This gave us the opportunity to interact and meet with the communities on the ground throughout the country and to hear firsthand about the quality of services being rendered by the Department of Social Services and its agencies.
It is necessary to inform the House that, in all instances, we had a delegation from the department as well as the SA Social Services Agency, Sassa, in the stakeholder engagement sessions.
Inputs from the public hearings were varied. We had instances where a community was very satisfied with services rendered. On the other hand, we also had instances where a community raised concerns around services rendered.
Challenges raised include long queues and inadequate facilities at pay points; a shortage of social workers, leading to welfare cases not being finalised quickly; stipends for caregivers not paid regularly; confusion around whether applications for funding should be made at the Department of Social Development or at the Department of Health; inadequate information supplied to applicants when applying for grants, resulting in them having to return to the offices more than twice; and a concern around the registration of NGOs, which results in funding problems and a duplication of services rendered. Concerns were also raised around the funding of early childhood development centres.
In addressing the above-mentioned challenges and problems, the Department of Social Development and the agency have put various measures in place. The SA Social Services Agency has embarked on different strategies aimed at the improvement of service delivery. Steps were taken to improve the grant application processes and reduce the turnaround time, and to promote customer care service at offices and service points.
They also piloted the improved grants administration process, Igap, which was very successful. In areas where Igap is not yet implemented, they have reduced the 90 days for completion of applications to an average of 12 days.
To manage the influx of clients to offices, they have implemented a queue management system as well as a booking system for grant applications and disability assessments.
In addressing the shortage of social workers, the department has come up with a turnaround strategy which focuses on the provision of scholarships for those interested in pursuing a career in social work. To date, over 6 000 undergraduate students have benefited from the programme and over 600 graduates have been placed in various provinces. It must be borne in mind that this is an ongoing process.
With regard to the application for stipends of caregivers, there are different roles and responsibilities for each department, and this needs to be clarified for communities. Social Development has, however, put some interventions in place to address these challenges. Information pamphlets and brochures are printed and distributed in the dominant languages used in a particular province. The department and Sassa have embarked on a campaign in which they are now purchasing slots on community radio stations to inform members of communities of services rendered as well as documents required to access such services.
With regard to the nonprofit organisation registrations, there is a national database that is updated on a monthly basis to check compliance with the Nonprofit Organisations Act requirements. These lists are sent to provinces annually and it must be noted that funding comes from provinces. We also agree that more work needs to be done in this area.
Regarding ECD centres, subsidies are paid by provincial departments. We are aware that there is a disparity in the amount that is being paid and we have been informed by the Department of Social Development that they are currently reviewing the costing mechanism for ECD subsidisation.
Hon members, the ANC government has put a basket of services in place to address the challenges of poverty among vulnerable people in our country. We have developed and implemented various programmes and, further to that, have developed policies and guidelines as to how this should be implemented. For instance, the child support grant is the largest social assistance programme in terms of the number of beneficiaries, with just over 9,8 million recipients receiving that grant. The age extension was implemented last year following the realisation that thousands of children between the ages of 15 and 18 years continue to live under the harsh conditions of poverty. By June this year the total number of CSG extension beneficiaries stood at over 393 000. Contrary to common belief, members, most beneficiaries are older women who, in most cases, become the primary caregivers of children born to teenagers.
It should be borne in mind that the objective of this grant is to ensure that caregivers of children living in extreme poverty are able to access financial assistance in the form of a cash transfer, to supplement rather than replace household income.
In strengthening the collaboration between the Departments of Basic Education and of Social Development in the provision of early childhood development, the departments fulfil their roles according to applicable legislation. At the end of March 2010 over 16 000 ECD sites were registered, with just over 719 000 children benefiting from these sites and about half of the children being subsidised by government. In the attempt to address the scourge of alcohol and drug abuse the ANC, at its 52nd National Conference, called for a concerted national effort to address the drug problem in our country. This can only be effectively addressed by eradicating poverty, escalating education and implementing other development programmes.
The Department of Social Development is therefore reviewing the institutional arrangement of the Central Drug Authority, CDA, with the view to strengthening and optimising its functioning. The CDA is a body set up specifically to advise government on drug-related issues and to implement the national drug master plan.
The ANC-led government has championed the Prevention and Treatment of Substance Abuse Act which highlights the negative effects of illicit drugs and places particular emphasis on education and prevention, especially among young people and their parents.
In conclusion, we have put various legislation programmes and guidelines in place to ensure that services are rendered to the most vulnerable and needy of our country. We can proudly say that, under this ANC-led government, current reports suggest that most of the targets under Goal One ...
Speaker, working together we can surely do more! I thank you. [Time expired.] [Applause.]
Thank you, Chairperson. The MF welcomes the report, but cherishes the hope to see that the reality of implementation of the recommendations takes place. However, the MF notes with great sadness that the broad suffering masses continue to endure hardship.
Service delivery protests show communities are frustrated and agitated. Lack of competent skills, fraud, corruption, nepotism, etc were just some of the concerns creating a negative destructive force to the delivery of quality services for all our people.
It is absolutely imperative that the people chosen must be capable people, and there must be skills development delivery. However, this cannot be achieved if those Sector Education and Training Authorities, Setas, that are given monies have become cheaters. They cheat and indeed that must be re-examined. Indeed, there must be complete dedication about uplifting the lot of the poor people.
The nondelivery problem is putting the wrong people in the job. South Africa must move away from colour. The selection of councillors who cannot read agendas and cannot take decisions is another area of great concern.
Let me give you an example. On land matters in eThekwini Municipality the housing committee chairperson has been deferring matters for the past eight months. Apart from other municipalities in the report, in Umdoni Municipality, after 16 years of democracy, people continue to live in informal settlements under difficult and inhumane circumstances. People living in houses for over 21 years continue to wait for the houses to be transferred. Some are compelled, indeed, to sign acknowledgement of debts nullifying government's policies of housing subsidies and debt relieve. Actually, where is the better life for all? Where is the creation of wealth assets for the poor?
Councillors are directly involved in tenders. What about Mike Sutcliffe using section 36 of the Supply Chain Management Act to give R1 billion worth of contract, which makes up 25% of the entire contract? The MF will support the report. [Time expired.]
Thank you, House Chairperson. The reasons for service delivery protests are complex and neither obvious nor universal, and the ACDP commends the ad hoc committee on the depth of their inquiry and on their comprehensive recommendations, including complaints response, management mechanisms and the strengthening of systems to curtail corruption and improve oversight and monitoring.
In looking a little more broadly at enhancing the quality of service delivery, the ACDP considers the possibility of a distinctive role for business, perhaps through corporate social investment. It is true that many companies have up till now regarded corporate social investment, CSI, as little more than a means to points on the Black Economic Empowerment scorecard. As a result many CSI initiatives folded, wasting millions of rands once a company finished its funding commitments.
More recently, however, CSI has moved from being an ad hoc reactive to being more strategic, proactive and beneficial as the relevance of investing in communities is being recognised. Perhaps this would be a good time to set up an industry body, not just to ensure that companies claiming BEE points adhere to their commitments, but to bring needy communities and even municipalities together with relevant businesses and to offer critical guidance for innovative and self-sustaining programmes in order to maximise the benefit in communities.
Another important consideration is the effects of climate change. Government's present struggle with service delivery will seem like a picnic by comparison. Droughts, the flooding of certain crops and fish species no longer thriving as they did before, are already adding to the stresses of the poor. The impact on food production and quality of life are becoming increasingly negative.
Government and Parliament have been accused of showing no signs of making this matter an urgent priority. While the President's interministerial task team has made and done its reporting, we see no material change on government's agenda. The Integrated Resource Plan, IRP 2, which is the energy plan for the country over the next 25 years, has once again been delayed while plans to build Medupi and Kusile and discussions around nuclear plants go ahead.
The country is at a watershed. We could turn around our energy industry, as Australia has done, over a matter of a few years from close to nothing in 2007 to a billion dollar industry in 2010. By using concentrated solar power and wind we could, within two to three years, set up plants to the equivalent of four Medupis.
Government has managed to give the impression that it is biased and listens only to the lobby which argues that renewable energy cannot provide base load power and that the industry has not yet proven itself. These are allegations which are blatantly untrue. Government is procrastinating over urgent decisions relating to crucial issues and the people of South Africa continue to go without. However, we will and we have supported the initiative to interrogate service delivery problems and we will approve the report. Thank you.
Hon House Chairperson, hon Ministers present, Deputy Ministers, hon members, I salute you. Hon Kenye talked about health and I'll talk about education. The mobilisation of communities to raise awareness and participation in the education of our children is one of the components of the 10-point plan of education adopted by the ANC in 2009.
For any country to prosper, education has to be prioritised. A prosperous nation is one in which everyone is literate; there is at least one employed person in every family; school-going age children are all going to school; their parents show an interest in the education of their children; and parents are willing to assist in any manner informed by their capacity and their support, ranging from encouraging their children to be at school every day, to listening to their educators and being their identity within the schools. Every child in every school paints a picture of their parents in words and deeds.
During 2009 the Ad hoc Committee on Co-ordinated Oversight on Service Delivery was deployed to all nine provinces to monitor and offer support to service delivery. However, I took an interest in education. In the identified municipalities we sought to establish the status of education in those areas. Young people were vocal in their wish for more further education and training colleges in rural areas. We noted in different provinces that delivery of education was driven from the two levels as reflected in the configuration of education, that is, basic and higher education.
We have noted that the 16 different education departments are things of the past. Thanks to the ANC, the ANC-led government has managed to end disparities as far as the education departments of old are concerned. Our children receive the same education, and that education needs to be viewed as every person's business for this country to achieve maximum expectations.
In our Polokwane Conference we stated, and I quote:
... precisely because patriarchal oppression was embedded in the economy, social, religious, cultural, family and other relations in all communities.
We need to use the democratic organs of people of power which have been created by our Constitution and successive legislative amendments, starting with the principle of the South African Schools Act which is informing our turnaround strategy.
Let's talk about the support of children. Children need to be supported by their parents. Parents don't have to be educated to do that. Parents will just inform their children to go to school. When they are at school they will be able to learn. After realising that education is important - as the ANC, we are saying that parents must assist us out there by telling their children to go to school - teachers will be able to do their job.
Another strategic resolution from Polokwane stated that:
Amongst the most vulnerable in society are children, and the national democratic society should ensure their protection and continuous advancement.
The whole society includes everyone in South Africa, including my brothers and sisters sitting this side. We should all assist to make sure that we change the education status of this country.
His Excellency President J G Zuma gave clear marching orders to schools as to what is expected of learners, educators and parents. We urge parents and all those organs to participate. He also reminded us that the unions, the SA Democratic Teachers' Union, Sadtu, the National Professional Teachers Organisation of South Africa, Naptosa and the "Suid-Afrikaanse Onderwysersunie" [SA Teachers' Union] have also pledged that they would be supportive.
Machangana va ri "Khoma hikwaleyo". Loko ho khomisana hinkwerhu swi hi vava swa vana va hina, ngopfu swa dyondzo, vusiwana laha tikweni leri ku nga va ntsheketo eka malembe lawa ya taka.
Un'wana na un'wana a vi na vutihlamuleri eka dyondzo ya vana va tiko leri. Vatswari a hi yeni etinhlengeletanini. Tinhlengeletano a ti vitaniwi hi nkarhi lowu vatswari va nga ta kota ku ti nghenelela. Vafundhisi etikerekeni a va hlohloteli vana ku dyondza. (Translation of Xitsonga paragraphs follows.)
[The Shangaan people say that we must work together. If we can work together being concerned of the wellbeing of our children, particularly in education, poverty in this country will be a thing of the past.
Everybody must take the responsibility in respect of the education of this country. We, as parents, must go to meetings. Meetings should be called when it is convenient for parents to attend. Pastors in churches must encourage children to learn.]
It may not necessarily be easy, that is why in Polokwane we agreed that, and I quote:
Revolutionary democracy shall not find social relations of the new order right and ready for harvesting.
Therefore, we call on all of us to participate positively. Let's rid our streets of children of school-going age by taking them to school. Let us make it our business to assist less fortunate children and pay for one school trip for a particular child, buy them uniforms and so forth. All organisations, if they call themselves organisations, should ensure that they assist at least one child per annum.
This country will only change if all of us participate by doing what we can. Remember, being positive, or rather positivism, is contagious. If we are positive, everybody there will be. Together we can do more. Before I go down I need to talk ... [Laughter.] ... and remind hon members, my colleagues sitting here, and hon Ndude of Cope that the undercapacitated personnel you are talking about are all receiving training. The ANC is taking care of them. In no time, I believe, they will be more capacitated than you. [Laughter.] [Applause.]
I also want to talk to hon J J McGluwa of the ID, or is it the DA? You see all the voters are smart. There is no one who can vote if they are not smart. [Time expired.] [Applause.]
Hon Chairperson, from the outset, let me state unequivocally that the PAC supports the report.
However, the Pan Africanist Congress of Azania is concerned with the quality and quantity of service delivery. Yes, houses are delivered here and there, to be washed away by moderate rains because of poor workmanship. The lifespan of a bridge worthy of the name is 50 years. Yet, our bridges collapse even before they are commissioned. We deliver stillborn bridges.
The local government is a strategic point of service delivery. What happened to the town clerk, the city engineer ... [Interjections.]
Order, please!
... and the town planner of yesterday? These are the key functionaries who went through rigorous, specialised training.
The municipal manager, the director of infrastructure and the director of development are cadres deployed on a political mission. No wonder service delivery is politicised, not professionalised.
The most vocal communities are the ones that are serviced. The rural communities, where millions of our people are trapped in poverty, are considered last because they are not as vocal as their urban counterparts. Even the media elects to ignore them.
The issuing of tenders has ...
Corruption is the biggest hindrance to service delivery. Thank you. [Time expired.] [Applause.]
Chairperson, after these visits, I am really convinced, like never before, that financial constraints are not the main reasons for the poor service delivery by municipalities. Crime, corruption and poor financial management are the problem in local governance. Maybe it is time for all of us to ask ourselves the following questions: Why are people protesting? Why is service delivery not rendered to the people of South Africa? What happened to the Batho Pele principles?
Bobodu le manyofonyofo le tsamaiso e mpe ya ditjhelete, le ho hirwa ha bahlanka ba phahameng ka lebaka la kamano tsa bona tsa dipolitiki kapa feela hobane ho batlwa tekano ya bong, ke tse ding tsa dintho tse amang phumantsho e fokolang ya ditshebeletso. Hantle ntle mona re bua ka ntho e hlokolotsi, eleng phano ya ditshebeletso. Phano ena ke motheo wa tokelo tsa botho.
Ho hloleha ha bommasepala ho ikobela melawana ya mohlahlobi e moholo wa ditjhelete, ke enngwe ya dintho tse bakang mathata kahare ho bommasepala ba bangata. Ho hlahelletse hore bommasepala ba bangata ba fane ka ditlaleho tsa bona tsa ditjhelete kamorao ho nako. Ha ba bang bona ba sa ka ba itshwenya le ho tlisa ditlaleho tsa mofuta o jwalo. Ho hong hape ke hore bommasepala ba hloleha ho bokella ditefello tsa phano ya ditshebelletso. Mohlahlobi e moholo wa ditjhelete o boletse hore bommasepala ha ba tsebe ho laola dikoloto tsa bona le ho etsa phaello, hore ho tle ho tsejwe ho fanwa ka ditshebeletso.
Mona ho bonahala hantle hore tlhokeho ya bokgoni ke yona e emeng tseleng ya hore phumantsho ya ditshebeletso e etswe ka tsela e nepahetseng. Ho boetse ho na le lesisitheho la sepolotiki ha ho lokelwa hore ho bokellwe ditefello, haholoholo ho bao ba nang le bokgoni ba ho lefa mmasepala. (Translation of Sesotho paragraphs follows.)
[Corruption and bad financial management, employment of top officials based on their political ties or only because of the desire to fulfil gender quotas are some of the things that affect service delivery. In fact, here we are dealing with a critical issue which is service delivery. Service delivery is a basic human right.
The failure of municipalities to adhere to the regulations of the Auditor- General is one of the things that create problems in many municipalities. It has since come to light that many municipalities released their financial reports late. Some of them did not even bother to bring such reports. The other issue is that municipalities have failed to collect municipal rates. The Auditor-General has mentioned that municipalities don't know how to manage their debts as well as saving money so that they could deliver services.
It is quite clear that here that lack of capacity is an obstacle for provision of service delivery to be done properly. There is also no political will when it comes to the municipal rates, especially from those who can afford to pay them.]
Chairperson, municipalities have become virtually synonymous with illegal tendering practices and unauthorised loans to councillors. The obvious consequence of corruption is that it leaves less money for service delivery. Municipalities have generally become a haven for those who have no fears about plundering state resources.
The challenges facing those municipalities are that contractors were paid before the projects were completed. According to the quantity surveyors, 77% or more of the money was paid to contractors, while 40% of the work was done. As a result, those contractors disappeared and left the projects unfinished.
It was also reported that, in most of the tenders, no performance agreement was signed between the municipality and the contractors. During the investigation process, significant documents regarding the projects were destroyed or went missing because the officials were involved. This impacted negatively on the investigations.
Millions are stolen from municipalities and nothing is done to recover it. As a committee, we fully agree that the perpetrators must be brought to book and all findings from the auditors and forensic investigations must be implemented.
The officials and councillors who resign while they are being investigated must be blacklisted by government to prevent them from being employed elsewhere until their investigations are completed.
An exorbitant amount is paid in salaries to officials and councillors. It exceeds spending on service delivery. Bonuses are also paid to councillors despite their failures to run the municipalities.
Municipal resources are spent on the luxurious and lavish lifestyles of the mayors and senior officials - like expensive cars and social parties - while basic responsibilities, like water, electricity, sanitation and roads, are not attended to. That is why people are angry and protesting. Municipal infrastructure grants are only used for the running costs of the municipalities instead of infrastructure projects. The unfunded mandates also pressurise municipal budgets.
Motsamaisi ya kgabane wa dipuisano, ha re ntse re nonya setjhaba maikutlo, re utlwile setjhaba se lla ka hore mmuso ha o se kgathalle ebile ha o se sekehele tsebe dillong tsa sona. Sena se bakile merusu e sa hlokahaleng, e bakileng mathata ho phatlalla le naha. Bomajoro ba bang ha ba hlomphe setjhaba haholoholo ha ba bua le sona, mme ba tletse lenyatso. Sena se halefisa setjhaba le hofeta.
Ha ke phetela Motsamaisi wa Dipuisano, ke batla ho lemohisa Ntlo ena e kgabane hore nako e fihlile jwale, ya hore mmuso wa rona o tlohele ho nyatsa le ho kgella dikelello tsa setjhaba sa haeso fatshe. Batho ba bulehile mahlo mme ba ke ke ba dula ba thetswa, ba fedile pelo ke ho hloleha ha mmuso ho phethisa thomo ya bona. Ke a leboha. [Mahofi.] (Translation of Sesotho paragraphs follows.)
[Hon Chairperson, as we were canvassing the nation's opinion we heard the nation's cry about the fact that government does not care about it and does not even listen to its grievances. This has led to unnecessary violence, which has caused problems nationally. Some mayors have no respect for their communities when they address them and they are very arrogant. This attitude angers the nation a lot.
As I conclude, Chairperson, I would like to make the honourable House aware that the time has now arrived for government to stop ignoring and undermining our nation's intelligence. The people have become wiser and cannot be fooled forever. They are running out of patience at the government's failure to fulfil its mandate. I thank you. [Applause.]]
Hon Chairperson, I am deeply hurt that this Parliament decided to delegate its members to go throughout the country in order to hear what people are saying are the causes of the problems that we were seeing as Parliament. The debate started very well at the beginning, with those who were present and those who went around and did what Parliament sent them to do. Until such time that those that were not part of this work started to come to this podium, things turned around and the debate degenerated.
But the reality is that the ANC-led government inherited a politically, socially and economically skew society from the apartheid regime in 1994, in which very few people, particularly whites, were economically empowered. They had access to better education and lived in beautiful and big houses with electricity and sanitation. On the one hand, they had infrastructure of the first world class, and on the other hand the majority of the nation, predominantly black people, were living in horrifying, rural and very poor areas of this country with no electricity and/or sanitation at all. They depended on wood fires as energy, later paraffin and coal stoves, and candles.
Those who stayed near the cities and towns were forcefully removed and dumped in remote areas far away from the developed areas. Those who found employment in mines, factories and shops were given no accommodation, but were expected to be at work on time, and give the best of their ability without even adequate training. This later resulted in migration into these areas as money was the source of life for their families. Subsequently, informal temporary settlements engulfed entire urban areas of our country, a challenge we are still continuing to grapple with in South Africa. The hard reality is that this challenge cannot be overcome overnight, though government is doing its best in this regard.
The previously disadvantaged section of our society, which forms the majority of the people of South Africa, is getting impatient with the slow machinery of the state to deliver services. That is the hard reality. Let me take this opportunity to focus my attention on the portfolio of energy, to which I am deployed, particularly as it affects the previously disadvantaged people of South Africa and beyond.
Remember, energy is regarded as the cornerstone of economic development in our society. The Department of Energy reported that much work has been done in the area of electrifying households to the extent that we are left with 20%-25% to reach the universal access to electricity countrywide. This, however, is not without challenges: Firstly, in the deep rural areas of our provinces, electricity is still a dream to come true in that there is no infrastructure, at this stage, for them to access it, and this is what we inherited.
Secondly, the informal settlements in urban areas have people who are engaging in very dangerous activities of illegal electricity connections. This was evident during our recent visit, as the parliamentary Ad hoc Committee on Co-ordinated Oversight on Service Delivery, to such areas.
Thirdly, internationally, universities and other key institutions of science, engineering and technology are engaging each other. This is to exchange ideas and develop technologies in various areas of energy and efficiencies, such as reliability and resistance, cleaner coal grid energy and the development of grid energy in the form of alternative sources like solar, wind, hydro, natural gas, nuclear and others, which are still at infancy level. These initiatives are aimed at ensuring that our children should find a foundation as regards energy supply and demand challenges as the society grows in years ahead.
Finally, coming back home, I wish to draw the attention of our august House to this extract from the Ad hoc Committee on Co-ordinated Oversight on Service Delivery. Local government is the centre of gravity. Integrated development plans should be central in development planning. An intergovernmental structure like the financial and fiscal commission needs to be established to consider plans, synchronise and budget. This will ameliorate the concern that departmental officials do not attend the independent development planning, IDP, meetings or junior officials, who do not have authority to make concrete decisions, are sent to attend IDP meetings. This intergovernmental structure will ensure co-ordinated planning and implementation against developmental trajectory. Thank you. [Interjections.] [Time expired.] [Applause.]
Hon Chairperson, hon Ministers and Deputy Ministers, and hon members, last year, the Fourth Democratic Parliament, which was aptly characterised as an activist Parliament, took the correct decision to establish an Ad hoc Committee on Co-ordinated Oversight on Service Delivery. The establishment of this committee was intended at finding empirical evidence on the underlying reasons for the so-called service delivery protests, which engulfed our municipalities in South Africa. The committee was ushered in under the theme: Working together to ensure the delivery of quality services to the communities.
Ye ke tabataba e swanet?ego, e bile tshepedi?ong kamoka, komiti ye ya nakwana e be e nolofat?a t?homi?ano magareng ga dikgoro t?a mmu?o wa boset?haba, dikgoro t?a diprofense le ditirelo t?a tshepedi?o go swana le Eskom le Sassa magareng ga t?e dingwe. Se se bohlokwa kudu ke gore, komiti ye e ?omi?ana le dikomiti t?a diprofense go lekola gore ditirelo di a abja, gammogo le bomasepala le set?haba. Tsenelelano ye e bont?hit?e go ba le mohola go netefat?eng gore mahlakore kamoka a set?haba a lemoga bohlokwa bja t?homi?anommogo go potlaki?a kabo ya ditirelo.
Ka ntle ga dikatlego go bont?i bja dimasepala, go nale ditlhotlo t?e nt?i t?e di t?welelago t?eo di t?welago pele go hlori?a kudukudu dimasepala. Le ge go le bjalo, ditlhotlo di amana gape le tshepedi?o kamoka ya mmu?o mabapi le thekgo ya boset?haba le diprofense go dimasepala. Tlhotlo ya ka mehla yeo e hlagi?it?wego ka maatla ke set?haba, e bile hlokego ya karabo ya mmu?o go matshwenyego ao a hlagi?it?wego ke maloko a set?haba. Dit?haba di belaela gore, le ge go hlagi?it?we matshwenyego ka mangwalo ao a balegago le dimemorantamo, matshwenyego a bona ga se a rarollwe. (Translation of Sepedi paragraphs follows.)
[In the whole process the ad hoc committee made it easier for the national government, provincial government, Eskom and Sassa to work co-operatively. This ad hoc committee works co-operatively with provincial committees, municipalities and the public to ensure service delivery. This integration has made the public aware of the importance of co-operation in speeding up service delivery.
Municipalities are encountering many challenges, including lack of adequate support by the national and provincial government. The main challenge raised by the public is lack of response by government to their concerns. The public is concerned that even after taking effort to raise their concerns in written form and in the form of memoranda they are still not attended to.]
The country witnessed intense community struggles, clashes with the police and the destruction of municipal buildings and houses of individual councillors. As Parliament, we need to condemn this behaviour; we need to underscore the fact that local government is at the coalface of service delivery. As such, frustrations are directed at them individually and to the community infrastructure. This is untenable and must come to an end.
There are systematic, structural and government or community interface problems crippling municipalities. Based on evidence, challenges which beset municipalities are not the functional areas of municipalities but provincial government and national imperatives. A thorny issue of incomplete houses is a provincial government competence. Another challenge, that of unemployment and lack of skills, is a structural challenge, which government in general has to respond to urgently.
A pressing challenge concerns the relationship of accountability between ward councillors and ward committees on the one hand and communities on the other. Councillors are accused of lack of responsiveness as well as the inability to champion community interest in council, and thus accountability to the people.
Go nale tlhotlo e nngwe e bohlokwa e lego hlokego ya hlokomelo ya diprot?eke le tshenyo ya neo t?a melao ya taolo ya phepokgolego [supply chain management regulations]. Mathata a mant?i ke diprot?eke t?eo di tloget?wego di sa fela mola 100% ya t?helete e lefilwe.
Borakontraka bao ba nago le molato, ba swanet?e go ngwadi?wa go lenaneo la difiwa la Letlotlo la Bo?et?haba la basenyi go ba thibela go hwet?a mo?omo o mongwe mmu?ong. Go swana le ba?omedi bao ba itokollago mo?omong ka mait?hirelet?o goba ka lebaka la dinyaki?i?o t?eo di dirwago kgahlanong le bona, le bona ba swanet?e ba ngwadi?we ke kgoro ya Pu?otiri?ano le Merero ya Set?o, CoGTA, go ba thibela gore ba se hwet?e mo?omo lefelong le lengwe ka ntle go sephetho sa dinyaki?i?o, ba na le molato wa go jabet?a goba boradia, gape ba swanet?e go ngwadi?wa lenaeong la CoGTA go thibela phatlalalo ya basenyi go tloga go masepala o mongwe go ya go o mongwe.
Go nale mengwako e ment?i ya Lenaneo la Kagoleswa le T?wet?opele, RDP, yeo e sa fet?wago dikarolong t?e nt?i t?a naga, go fa mohlala, kua Nokeng t?a Taemane go la Gauteng. Tlhohlo ye ke se?upo sa gore Kgoro ya Bodulo bja Batho e nepile ge e nyaki?i?a dithentara le go thuba mengwako yeo e senyegilego ka lebaka la bofokodi bja mo?omo wa baagi. Komiti ya Nakwana e swanet?e go thekga lenaneo le go pho?olla bothata bjo bo lego gona gona bjale.
Tlhotlo ye nngwe ye thata yeo e nyakago ?edi ya mmu?o ke pelaelo\ ya gore dikgoro ga di ye dikopanong t?a diIDP goba ba romela ba?omedi ba maemo a tlase bao ba ka se kgonego go t?ea diphetho. Mokgwa wo o nyaka hlokomelo ya t?hoganet?o go netefat?a gore mmu?o o ineet?e go tsela ya mohlakanela ya thlabollo.
Diprofenseng t?e dingwe go nale maano a thomilwego go netefat?a gore diMEC di amega thwii lenaneong la kgotlaganyo ya diIDP, gagolo kua KwaZulu-Natal. Se se laola gabotse Mahlomo a Dikamano t?a ka gare t?a mmu?o... [T?hwahlelo.] [Nako e fedile.] [Legoswi.] Ke a leboga. (Translation of Sepedi paragraphs follows.)
[Another pressing challenge is a lack of projects monitoring and the contravention of supply chain management regulations. Many problems are caused by incomplete projects that have already been paid for 100%.
The contractors who are found guilty should be blacklisted at the offenders' programme in the National Treasury to make it impossible for them to get another job offer from the government. The Department of Co- operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, Cogta, must also blacklist employees who commit fraud and resign to protect themselves or to avoid investigations against them. This should be done to prevent them to get another job offer before the completion of investigations and to stop the spread of corruption from one municipality to another.
There are many houses in the Reconstruction and Development Programme, RDP, that are still incomplete in many parts of the country, for example, Nokeng tsa Taemane in Gauteng. This proves that the Department of Human Settlements is right in investigating tenders and demolishing poorly constructed houses due to poor workmanship. The ad hoc committee must support this programme to solve the existing problem.
The fact that government departments do not attend integrated development planning, IDP, meetings and are also delegating junior staff members who cannot take decisions should be attended to. This matter needs urgent attention to ensure that the government is committed to integrated development.
There are plans in place in other provinces like Kwazulu-Natal to ensure that the Members of the Executive Council, MECs, are fully involved in the IDP programme. This controls effectively foundations of internal relations in government ... Thank you. [Interjections.] [Time expired.] [Applause.]]
Hon Chairperson, on a point of order: There was a structural and institutional malfunction during the hon member's maiden speech that militated against many of us being able to give her maiden speech the necessary respect of listening to it. The interpretation is so poor that it is almost impossible to follow. I saw you with the interpretation at your ear and I tried also, but eventually gave up. And really, it is very, very difficult if we are going to have a situation where interpretation is of such a nature that we cannot follow the debate.
Thank you, hon member, I think the relevant people will take care of that. The Table staff will take care of the issue of interpretation. Thank you.
Hon Chairperson, I would like to start by correcting hon Mushwana who alleged that hon Ndude suggested that the municipalities are incapacitated. It is, in fact, the ad hoc committee report which states that the municipalities are incapacitated.
Cope welcomes and supports the ad hoc committee report on service delivery, but wishes to draw the attention of the House to specific concerns which, notwithstanding the recommendations of the report, will remain a challenge for the government.
It goes without saying that appropriate institutional arrangements and intergovernmental relations are a cornerstone of effective and efficient service delivery co-ordination. This supposed appropriate institutional arrangement is often predicated on the assumption that there is a stable political environment within which such institutions exist and operate. However, in some of the communities we visited it cannot be said that the conditions for a stable political environment are conducive to smooth service delivery.
This was the experience we had in Thembisa, the informal settlement in Johannesburg. Four residents had erected shacks on one stand without even one of them holding a title deed. Only one of the four shacks had been provided with electricity. Furthermore, electricity was illegally connected to the other three shacks, which means that if one resident is not home, the rest cannot have access to electricity. This is a recipe for social conflict and has the potential to trigger protest in these areas.
Short-term solutions to the current crisis that do not contribute positively to a permanent long-term solution should be discarded. These are simply contributing to the mounting crisis in these areas.
To illustrate my point further, I wish to draw the attention of the House to a potential time bomb. A large number of people in this country, particularly in the low-income groups, have been allocated houses to which they hold no title deeds. In fact, they do hold title deeds, but the irony is that these houses are occupied by people who are either politically connected or who use force to occupy them illegally.
This was the experience in Diepsloot, where a number of people occupied houses illegally. They are even busy extending these houses, yet the rightful owners are in the queue waiting to get houses. The challenge is that the people who hold the title deeds are neither able to gain access to their houses, nor are they entitled to join the housing waiting list. Such incidences are on the increase and critical attention must be paid to this impending disaster.
The situation is further exacerbated by people illegally selling RDP houses without registering such transfers with the Deeds Office. This will make it difficult for both the government and the Deeds Office to trace the legal owners of these properties in the future, as illegal transactions continue without transfers being registered.
Lastly, I wish to draw attention to the issue of bulk municipal infrastructure funding. As a consequence of historical circumstances, South Africa inherited an enormous backlog in bulk infrastructure. Even though municipalities are capable of providing water and sanitation through their allocated budgets, they cannot fully address these backlogs within the regulated timeframes and context of their own normal operational budgets.
Cope therefore wishes to call on the government to create a special fund to address these backlogs. If this does not happen, we may in future have to ask the question which Ringo Madlingozi asks in his song: "Whose song will the future sing?" Thank you. [Applause.]
Madam Chair, hon Minister Sexwale, considering the numerous violent demonstrations throughout the country, it was necessary that an oversight visit be done, particularly to the so-called hot spot areas in all nine provinces. However, the visits, done quite some time after the protests, did not give us the exact impact. Hon Selau, I was part of the delegation. However, you failed to inform us of the corruption and maladministration that you were talking about.
Service delivery protests turned violent in many areas. They have brought political instability, not to mention the vandalism of municipal buildings, libraries and clinics. These very communities now want the same structures and buildings that they themselves have destroyed to be replaced. Most municipalities cannot afford to do this. Will this result in another round of protests?
Many of the protests were due to maladministration, cadre deployment, corruption and political infighting between the factions of the ruling party. It was evident that the leadership had lost touch with the residents on the ground and had taken refuge in their ivory towers, forgetting about the plight of the people. There is also a lack of understanding of the functions of the different spheres of government, and municipalities often bear the brunt of nondelivery by district councils and provincial government. Municipalities have become an easy target for demonstrators. Districts and provincial departments very seldom come to their rescue, but, rather, hide behind the back of the municipalities.
Whilst municipalities are responsible for providing internal reticulation, bulk infrastructure lies with the districts, which have failed dismally. Municipalities, particularly medium- and low-capacity municipalities, cannot afford to budget for and install bulk services which run into billions.
People living in glass houses should not throw stones.
A HON MEMBER: Hear, hear!
It is rather strange that the hon member from the ad hoc committee seems to be concentrating on Khayelitsha instead of highlighting the shortcomings of the other eight provinces. Hundreds of instances in ANC- controlled municipalities show that they have not complied with any of the norms.
In the Rammulotsi Township near Viljoenskroon in the Free State there are still dozens of open toilets after nine years of ANC rule. Take Protea South, where 548 toilets are being shared by 8 000 families. The national norm is 1:5. Here it is 1:15 families. Further to this, for 15 years, the council has failed to provide sanitation, and is currently in defiance of a court order that was handed down last year.
This week, in a KwaZulu-Natal newspaper, The Mercury, a front-page article carries the story that a prominent ANC member's daughter was awarded a contract for 50 container toilets ordered by the eThekwini Municipality at a cost of millions of rands, on the basis that they were needed for an informal settlement. The toilets are still lying opposite a police station in Sydenham.
We have seen sewage spillages, nonexistent stormwater drainage, leaking pipes, a total absence of refuse removal, inaccessible roads, no electrification, and huge unemployment particularly amongst school leavers. Communities are not experiencing any difference in or change to their lifestyles. However, they clearly see the wastage that occurs, particularly on the part of the political leadership and administration who have, in many instances, become arrogant and inaccessible to people and communities.
It does not help, either, when a mayor calls the disadvantaged people in her community "stupid", or where she refers to the youth as "lazy drunkards", instead of assisting them to improve their lifestyles and empower them with skills. These kinds of allegations by community leaders cannot be ignored, and action must be taken if we are to improve the living conditions of our communities.
Political infighting between community development workers, CDWs, and ward committee members and councillors is evident far and wide. CDWs and ward committee members have suddenly become aspirant councillor candidates, and instead of strengthening and supporting the councillors, they are undermining them.
The ad hoc committee had its work cut out, and its term has now come to an end. But what about the report-back to the communities? We have heard it time and time again during public hearings that on a continuous basis representations from ministry, province, the NCOP and Parliament make promises, yet no one does a report-back to them. Unless the report-back is done, communities will continue to distrust the different structures.
The absence of the Minister and the Deputy Minister of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs is most unfortunate, considering the importance of this report. Thank you. [Time expired.] [Applause.]
Hon Chairperson, hon members, many speakers who came to this podium shied away from looking at the oversight instruments that are available along the three spheres of state, which deserve to be reinforced. I beg your indulgence, hon Chairperson, to look into this matter this afternoon, but before I do that, let me quote the President of our country when he said:
You will recall that during the inauguration we committed ourselves to the service of the nation with dedication, commitment, discipline, integrity, hard work and passion. We called for faster service delivery. We said the dreams and hopes of all the people of our country must be fulfilled. We said there was no place for complacency, cynicism and excuses.
These are the words of the President opening the ANC Lekgotla on 15 to 18 January 2010, drawing the line on the sand for all elected and deployed cadres to serve the population diligently. He warned that "there must be no social distance between the people and their government, and the people must not be ignored." He said, "We should identify the weaknesses and work out the correction measures and rectify them."
The Ad hoc Committee on Co-ordinated Oversight on Service Delivery visited many local municipalities to identify these weaknesses in line with this injunction and constitutional imperative, which outlines the framework for oversight by Parliament in terms of section 55(2) of the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa.
It is common cause, at least among those who participated in this oversight fact-finding mission, that many weaknesses have been due to the social distance between the people and their government, particularly in many of the areas visited by the ad hoc committee. I will draw your attention to one thing I'll come back to, hon Wenger. The hon Waters, hon Smith, hon Ndude, hon Steyn would attest to the fact that the toilets in Du Noon do not meet the national standards. That is the problem.
I think we must collectively agree that our oversight function must focus on how we can pressurise all three spheres of government to maintain and perform their functions properly instead of throwing stones at them. Because the more we criticise them, the more we weaken them. We should instead support them. I suggest that this throwing of stones is, in fact, especially by those who live in glass houses, and does not make sense either to them or to us.
Members of Parliament who went to Taung in the North West and those who came with us to Thulamela and Molemole in Limpopo will confirm that there are huge dams, the Taung and the Nandoni Dams. They are full of water, but the villages around them have no water, no water in the taps, no water for irrigation and there is no water for the animals.
Hon Chief Whip, there has to be a way, in terms of the Constitution, to make us in this Parliament work with our colleagues in the provincial legislatures and standing committees at local level. There is absolutely no reason why these people should sit there hoping that one day, God willing, this water that they see in this dam will come to their homes when they vote every five years. Our colleagues, who provide this oversight function, see this thing everyday and do nothing. I think this throwing of stones here is not helping. And this function of the ad hoc committee that this Parliament has created must continue rather than come to an end as a once- off event.
Section 55(2) of the Constitution states that the National Assembly must provide for mechanisms to ensure all organs of state in the national sphere of government are accountable to it. What is this oversight function that we provide that makes these departments account to us when these things are there for 16 years and we always talk about them in this podium but do nothing?
This is a constitutional imperative given to us as an oversight function, but we talk about it and do nothing. This means that the ad hoc committee must submit a clear report of its findings to this House for Parliament to demand an explanation of incomplete projects originally created to better the life of affected communities.
Similarly, all relevant portfolio committees of this House and those of provincial legislatures must take steps to follow these matters up in order to correct these weaknesses so that the dedication the President spoke about, the commitment that we are supposed to show in our tasks, the discipline and integrity, hard work and the passion that we deployees of this nation must show in our work will be seen in practice, not only on the podium. [Applause.]
Hon members, councillors reported that state-owned enterprises, especially Eskom and the water boards in particular, are a law unto themselves. They choose which villages to electrify; they choose which villages will get water, without talking to councillors, without even due regard to the mayor of the town.
When these fights between the mayors and councillors with the communities take place, all these other spheres fold their arms as if they have nothing to do with that fight. Yet Eskom is the provider of electricity, water boards are in charge and not local authorities, and yet the communities fight against councillors because they are the face of government nearest to the people. What is the oversight function of Parliament in this regard? Remember, water and electricity are a national competence. When people fight for water and electricity, we behave as if it has nothing to do with us.
It is important to note that these councillors, although they have their weaknesses, also have their problems, including corruption. There has to be a way which will insist on the structural and institutional co-operation between councillors and traditional leaders. We were told that there are townships, hon Sexwale, that are built between towns and outside villages.
Those people who are regarded as the poorest of the poor in the village are taken out of the social network of the villages, away from the villages, which means they have nobody to look after them because they do not belong to the traditional leader or the town, so it is a township in the middle of nowhere.
We create, suddenly, social problems that have nothing to do with what they experience in the village. Do you know what the problem is? These people cannot negotiate a livelihood outside the village because the only skills they have are those skills they acquired from birth in the village, and suddenly they must depend on social grants outside their villages where there is no work. Why is it allowed for townships to be built outside the village nowhere close to the town? We saw this thing with our own eyes when we visited North West and Limpopo. Why is it allowed?
We were horrified in Molemole Municipality to learn that a corpse had been in a mortuary for months because the traditional leaders would not allow that Zimbabwean citizen to be buried anywhere in the village, not because they could not bury that person, but simply because they had a fight with the councillors who want to regulate land use planning. Now this dead person could not be buried. We had to abandon our task and create a negotiating process to reconcile the two people for the dead person to be buried.
The point here is that we must create a mechanism to regulate the working relationship between the traditional leaders and the councillors, especially with relation to land, commonages, graveyards, grazing land and even fields for the cultivation of food. The majority of people in townships do not work, anyway, so the land available must be put to use to produce food for food security. [Applause.] [Time expired.]
Debate concluded.
Hon Chairperson and hon members, I move:
That the Report be adopted.
Chairperson, we also agree; but can it just be put in the minutes that we are not necessarily agreeing with all the recommendations of the report?
That will be noted. Hon member, is that a point of order?
Chairperson, no ... yes, it is a point of order: We spent close to an hour last night in the ad hoc committee, dealing with the concerns raised by the hon Doman. We changed the report and they told us that they have accepted the report. I don't understand what is happening today. What happened between last night and now?
Chairperson, if the hon member was there right to the end of the meeting ... [Interjections.] ... he would recall ...
Hon member, I didn't give you the floor. Can you please take your seat?
Chairperson, I will do so; but I just wanted to answer him.
Hon members, you have agreed that the report be adopted. The DA said that we should note their concerns, because they do not agree with some recommendations in the report. Therefore, they have a right to do so. I have already indicated that we will note their concern.
What will happen afterwards will be discussed at the relevant committee. We cannot debate that in this House. [Applause.] Hon member, is that a point of order?
Chairperson, yes, it is a point of order: The hon Sizani got your attention and you asked him if it was a point of order; and he said no. Then he changed his mind and said it was a point of order. Actually, he didn't make a point of order, but you allowed him to speak and conclude. When the hon Doman wanted to speak, you didn't give him an opportunity to respond. [Interjections.]
Hon member, I had to respond, because I had already given the ruling on the issue. I hope that the hon Doman is happy that we have agreed that his concern will be noted.
Motion agreed to.
Report accordingly adopted.