House Chair, the question is as follows: Whether certain persons contributed to the National Treasury Economic Policy Paper, not titled, entitled "Economic Transformation Inclusive Growth and Competiveness towards an economic strategy for South Africa" if so what was their role? Then the names
submitted for these certain persons, are those of Professors; Ricardo Hausmann and Robert Lawrence from Harvard University, hon Shivambu. I think you forgot to add Professor Dani Rodrik. The question is; have they contributed towards the paper? The answer depends how you define contribute because, you can contribute in various ways. You can contribute by drafting a paragraph or adding a coma and so on, or could contribute by entering into a debate and a conversation that enriches the thought process. Others could contribute by paying for the venue of a meeting or something like that. Now, in this instance I think what we are getting at, since I know you from the youth league days, what we are getting at, is a view that the paper was written by Harvard University Professors, which is false. Now, if we have time I wanted to read the people who participated at the three colloquium that we organised at the South African Reserve Bank, which colloquium may have contributed the ideas process or may not, but I think they probably contributed to enrich the thought process.
There only three Harvard professors, the rest are South African professors, some of them are from your university
at University of the Witwatersrand, from Stellenbosch University, University of Free State and others, while some were private sector economists, government economists, South African Reserve Bank economists, farmers for example from ZZ2 and so on. So, yes ideas were contributed because the thought processes are not static.
I think there is some kind of intellectual inferiority because Harvard University is therefore, it is only the Harvard University that contributed, and yet these other South African academics who contributed but because you are scared of the Harvard University professors, you uplift them higher than the others. The fact of the matter is that there were other professors as well including some who might have taught you and you didn't pick up what they taught you. Thank you very much.
House Chairperson, certainly there is no professor who taught me, who contributed to the neoliberal perspective that we released and the context of why we are asking the question is because Ricardo Hausmann is an associate professor, is an associate for
the Centre for International Development in Harvard University and the key funders of the CID is Investec asset management, Standard Bank, is George Soros Open Foundations. Some of the ideas that are contained in that perspective are in the Investec Economic policy perspectives. So basically Investec takes its perspective about the restructuring of Eskom, feeds the Harvard University professors, then they come and feed you, then you call that expert advice. In this context Investec stands to benefit out the whole unbundling of Eskom as is proposed here. So the question we are asking is: Aren't you being again like Minister Gwede, being a puppet of the capitalist establishment that is imposing its views through so called intellectualism because there is through nothing intellectual about the perspective, is just neoliberal driven that has been repeated many times, that we privatise, we let the state not to participate in everything else and therefore is going to be growth.
That is the context out it to say that you are now checking domestic capitalist perspective on how the economy must be restructured and then you back those perspectives as if it's some expert advice from Harvard
University whilst it's not. That is context within which we are asking this question.
I know that we all have different ideological positions and so if you want your ideological position to govern, you first have to win elections. You can't expect the EFF ideological position to be that of the ANC slot. So, you have to win elections first, maybe manage Johannesburg better [Applause.] Now, I indicated to you that the three Harvard University professors were only three amongst many, who attended, but you are hung up about Harvard University because of your intellectual inferiority to Harvard University, yes, because why you are not worried about these other South African professors. Three people out of over 50 professors are the problem to you. The issue about who funds who is not the issue that you ask me. For example do I ask who funds the EFF's writing skills? I don't ask you that question because it's your business, whether is the Venda Building Construction, VBS, or who else [Laughter.] I don't ask that question. Whether you have repaid the VBS money or not, I haven't asked you that question, until maybe I release the forensic report, then
you will be in trouble. So focus on the many people who participated in the conversation and not pick up on Professor Hausmann alone. Thank you very much.
House Chair, hon Minister the Economic Paper in question is most certainly welcomed and a move to the right direction for our country, the strategies outlined there are very clear, simple and all that is needed from the all stakeholders to implement them to the latter, then the question is: How does the Minister intend to meet yet the opposition to his plan in particular how to intent to rally support with ANC alliance partners who have come out against this plan but, who in this regard should be at the forefront in driving transformation, employment and the labour sector.
For example during the era of President of Thabo Mbeki which the Growth, Employment, and Redistribution Strategy, GEAR, when the labour union took it to street, that was the end of that strategy. Are we going see the same with this one? Thank you.
Yes, the rallying of support for this work is very important. As you know, policy at the end of the day is politics, you can't separate the two. Politics has to provide the leadership, so we have been involved in conversations with the leadership of the ANC, business leadership and all other leadership, that's relevant to rallying the support for this work. More certainly we have had conversations with National Executive Committee of the ANC, for almost the whole day. The economic transformation committee of the ANC has discussed these issues but, I suppose at the end of the day, the ANC has to make a decision of what to do about this. Being at the head of the alliance, I am sure the leadership of the ANC here will be able to carry the necessary processes but, time is of the essence and some things can't wait, we have to proceed. Let me give an example, we say that there are two sectors of the economy which could be labour absorptive; agriculture which we have just discussed, with the millions the Minister was reading, congratulations Minister, and tourism.
Now, take tourism and we have this discussion before, where we said that tourism is a low hanging fruit and
therefore we should move with speed to support tourism in the job creation endeavour and the speed with which we issue visas to tourist who want visit our shores, it's important and the Minister of the Department of Home Affairs is becoming a big ally of mine, in making sure that we get the visas sorted out and get rid of all these abridged birth certificates for children and so on. He is already moved ahead, so we are not waiting for some future dates to start the implementation, it is progress in action. I am very pleased that we are making progress and take the issues on the networked industries, if there is transport, communications and so on. Work is going ahead there, the issue of spectrum, hopefully members from the EFF know spectrum is [Laughter.] So that is happening and in the process getting the momentum going. So I thank you very much for your question, the opportunity to elaborate a bit and educate some members in red.
No, Chair I wanted to confirm that we are not having conceptual confusion, we understand spectrum allocation, particularly the rolling out of the coming up of the 5G generation. It's very easy but we are from
University of Harvard, we don't have to outsource our thinking to Harvard.
House Chairperson, hon Minister in the spirit of participatory democracy which is enshrined both in the Constitution and in the Freedom Charter, on 27 August 2019 the Ministry of Finance called on the members of the public to make comments on a paper titled: Economic Transformation Inclusive Growth and Competitiveness toward an economic strategy for South Africa. Can the Minister enlighten the South African public as to how have contribution strengthen this economic paper? Thank you.
Thank you very for that question. The answer to your question is that there were over 800 submissions, responding to the request we had made to the public. Now the basic approach that we took was that those contributions which are internally consistent with the direction of the paper will be incorporated, but those which were internally inconsistent would be acknowledged, it was nice but not helpful. So, we are in the process now of incorporating
that which is internally consistent. Some of them very, very useful comments but, if a comment for example says; my contribution is that this paper is neoliberal, George Soros and so on, that is internally inconsistent and therefore not helpful [Laughter.] Or somebody says the macroeconomic policy that must underpin this paper must be the abolishment of inflation targeting, that is internally inconsistent and therefore would not be taken into account.
So we appreciate those who have made contributions which are internally consistent with the paper, because they strengthen the paper, we very much appreciate that. Thank very much.
Minister, thank you I agree, I think this, as a general rule in South Africa, our position should be that the quality of contributions should be more important that the identity of the contributors and I am glad that you agree with that position. Now, one of the people who did contribute is actually the hon Kruger from the DA, who's Private Member's Bill, the Red Tape Production Bill is actually listed as one of things that
needs to be implemented in your paper and, which we obviously support. That contribution is internally consistent with the rest of the paper. So my question very simply is: When will that Bill, which was last year voted down by the ANC but which we are happy to reintroduce at a moment's notice, when we reintroduce it and get it to this House as quickly as possible?
I think you should take advantage of the questions to the Deputy President maybe next week, to ask that question because I don't think I am at liberty to do that but, he will. We are making progress in that direction, I think, but I am not quite sure we are making direction towards the Private Member's Bill or making direction towards an Executive Bill, I think towards more to an Executive Bill, but the Deputy President I am sure will deal with the question. Maybe we should avoid standing on rooftops and claiming that this party made that contribution or the other, it might not be helpful at all. So let's not stand on any rooftop, let's just do the work that needs to be done. Thank you very much.
Question 187:
Hon Chair, the
question relates to the SABC's capacity to comply with the outstanding preconditions from National Treasury, including the sustainability thereof. In our reply, as the department, we are saying that the outstanding preconditions relate to separate reporting in terms of public commercial services and public broadcasting services, as well as the identification of noncore assets and the public-private partnerships, PPP.
So, the SABC has developed a turnaround strategy with the assistance of the Government Technical Advisory Centre, GTAC, which incorporates a variety of initiatives that will be implemented, in order to address all the governance, operational and financial inefficiencies within the organisation.
In order to ensure that the R2,1 billion allocated to the SABC is utilised for its intended purposes, the SABC's executives will provide the departmental task team with monthly progress reports, with effect from November 2019 on the implementation of the turnaround strategy.
In this process, the SABC will also be required to report on the progress made in addressing the concerns of government with regard to three outstanding preconditions that must be fully complied with by March 2020.
So government is satisfied that the SABC has fully complied, and based on some of those things that I have related to before, the public broadcaster has demonstrated commitment to enhance supply chain management processes, to improve and implement all its turnaround strategies accordingly, but also to deal with issues of consequence management and fully capacitate the organisation with the required skills and competencies.
In addition, the department has also developed a plan to pursue policy and regulatory changes to address market failures that maybe seen as negatively affecting the public broadcaster. So, we are in a way working towards the regulatory framework that needs to be addressed, which can also address the issues that the public broadcaster is concerned with. So far, we are satisfied. Thank you.
House Chair, Deputy Minister, the comprehensive response you have given does give assurance to South Africans that efforts are being made to get the national broadcaster back on its feet, and South Africans can once again have confidence. However, the issue raised by the SABC a number of times relates to high employee costs. What is the view of the department on reports on high employee costs at the SABC, which may lead to the retrenchment of staff, going forward? I thank you.
Hon Chair, I think
the issue of the bloated SABC is not unique to the SABC. We have sat with the board to request a skills audit. Before we even arrive at section 189, we must deal with the issue of a skills audit. We must look at options of reskilling and upskilling and look at other ways of how we can assist employees, so that we don't take retrenchment as the first option.
So, the SABC is looking at the totality of all those things so that, at the end, we are able to respond accordingly. The issue of retrenchment is something that
is unavoidable but it has to be informed by realities that the SABC will arrive at. Thank you.
House Chairperson, hon Deputy Minister, arising from your response, the ACDP played a key role in the SABC inquiry in the Fifth Parliament. We note your progress report on the conditions for the R2,1 billion bailout, particularly on the monthly progress reports as well as the supply chain management and we welcome those. Parliament will also be exercising oversight in that regard. However, one of the areas of concern is the payment of royalties to musicians and others who have rendered services to the SABC. Whilst this is not directly arising from your response, would you care to look into this issue because we understand that the SABC collects the royalties and holds them and it is not being paid to the musicians? Is that an issue that you would look into because clearly many of the musicians are struggling in the economic environment? Thank you.
Hon Chair, hon
Swart, thank you for the contribution that you made as a member of the committee. The payment of royalties is a
thorny issue. We have been engaging the Independent Music Performing Rights Association, Impra, and the South African Music Performing Rights Association, Sampra, and all other organisations, not only us, as the Department of Communications, but together with the Department of Sport, Arts and Culture. There was even an Interministerial Committee before my time that was led by hon Buti Manamela, the current Deputy Minister of Higher Education. We have picked up on all those things, and not only does it concern our normal SABC radio stations, it also affects Impra, Sampra and all other organisations, even community radios.
So, we want to develop a comprehensive approach to respond to some of those and it is an issue that the Ministry of Arts and Culture is leading, in this respect. Thank you.
Chair, ...
The last time I checked you were not hon Ndlozi. [Interjections.]
I am explaining to you. My name is Fana Mokoena. I will stand in for hon Ndlozi. [Interjections.]
It has to be arranged with the Table. [Interjections.]
We apologise profusely.
I will give you a chance next time. [Interjections.]
Hon Chair, Deputy Minister, the turnaround strategy of the SABC was crafted by the Department of Finance, with the help of GTAC, which is not an expert in anything. In fact, the Department of Communications seems to run to Finance for anything that has to do with that department. The department has misdiagnosed the problem at the SABC. One of the conditions that the SABC has not been able to meet is the issue of selling off of assets, which the SABC itself has admitted that they cannot sell off, because it would then impact on their competitive edge. The competitive edge of the SABC, as the industry agrees, lies in its ability to
control the platforms on which it broadcasts its content and that has to do with digital migration. When is the department going to stand up against the Department of Finance on the issue of digital migration and on these conditions that it imposes on the SABC, so that the SABC can have its competitive edge and succeed?
Hon Chair, I need
to put it categorically that the turnaround strategy was developed by the SABC itself. The fact that the SABC developed that turnaround strategy and Treasury got involved was because they needed R3,3 billion and Treasury wanted to know whether, with the turnaround strategy and with what the SABC wants, there will be value for money, going forward.
So, firstly, Treasury, by all means, will be involved because we need to protect the taxpayers' money. Secondly, on the issue that the SABC was unable to deal with selling off assets and other related things, remember, I said when I presented that there were three preconditions. One speaks to public broadcasting services - the current radio stations like Ukhozi, Thobela,
everything. SABC needed to separate how they report on the commercial aspect and the public aspect. The commercial aspect is the radio stations like Five FM, Metro and others.
So, Treasury told us not to club them together. We have the public mandate and we have the commercial mandate. They said that we must see if the commercial aspect of the SABC is making money.
The same applies to noncore assets. Noncore assets will include land that the SABC owns and it will include all other things like TV channels and radio broadcasting opportunities that might not be making money to the SABC. So, the SABC has to look at those to decide where it can do PPPs, where it can do a lease and where it can do build, operate and transfer. So, those are the things that the SABC is doing and falls under the preconditions.
The issue of digital migration is something that will also assist and enhance the SABC to explore other platforms, other than the regular platforms of radio and TV that are currently operating, and the SABC will be
able to play in the digital space. That is what the SABC is preparing for now to also be competitive. Thank you.
Chairperson, Deputy Minister, we welcome your intervention, as the Department of Communications in making sure that the SABC follows all the preconditions that are left out. However, as the SABC now wants to increase the TV licences of poor South Africans who are subjected to air shows and programmes of decades ago, what is the department's take on this one, especially with the economy that is facing South Africa right now?
Chair, hon Majozi,
as South Africans, we also have to take the issue of the survival of the public broadcaster very seriously. For years, the SABC has not been increasing its licensces. If you look at all our areas - and I commend people - even in informal settlements, you see that many have migrated on their own. You see satellite dishes. This means that the person has migrated from analog to digital. Thank you to South Africans.
However, we are also saying that it is paid TV. We are offering free-to-air channels and we can give you six to eleven platforms for free. So, assist the SABC by paying. By paying the licences, we can bring new content into the SABC, so that we don't bring Mopheme and we don't repeat other dramas. We can bring young people into the creative industry to bring new content. [Interjections.] So, payment of licences will be critical.
Question 182:
Thanks,
Chairperson. Well, the Department of Employment and Labour acknowledges the wealth and the contribution by the various stakeholders in trying to find solutions to youth employment and in addressing the problem of those not in education employment or training, we call them the need. Our plans are based on the observations and recommendations made in the National Youth Policy, the Youth Employment Accord, the Human Sciences Research Council, HSRC, report and other studies and policy recommendations.
As we reorganised the department in line with the new mandate, we are building on the existing policies and work closely with other departments, the youth sectors institutions of learning, the nongovernmental organisations and international communiqu and the private sector in efforts which are aimed at improving of the education and training opportunities to close the skills gap and to facilitate the transition between school-leaving and first employment.
We also refer work seekers with low skills levels after assessing them to the public employment services and to the Department of Higher Education, Science and Technology, sector education and training authorities, Setas, Technical and Vocational Education and Training, Tvet, colleges and other private institutions.
We are also supporting some of these initiatives through the Labour Activation Programme, which is run by the Unemployment Insurance Fund, UIF, and the Compensation Fund and connecting the young people with employment opportunities through other free work seekers recruitment placement through what we call the public employment
services youth centres and the private employment services career centres, career counselling, employment schemes work-readiness promotion programmes and providing young people with the work experience through learnerships, apprenticeships and internships.
We are also increasing the number of young people employed in the public youth programmes such as the known Expanded Public Works Programme, EPWP, the National Youth Service Programme, Community Works Programme, the National Rural Youth Service Corps, Narysec, the youth brigade in the Green, focused on Working on Fire and other environmental programmes, Health brigade, Literacy brigade and Maintenance brigade.
We are also empowering the youth, women and people with disabilities through the targeted set-asides industries and the public sector. We have about eight factories now in the provinces strictly which are run by the people with disabilities.
So, the promotion of the youth entrepreneurship, youth
co-operatives and SMEs is part of the programme. So, that
is a collaborative effort between the public and the private sector to expand the intake of the young people through these initiatives such as Harambee Youth Employment Accelerator. Gauteng talks about Tshepo 1 Million and other interventions funded under job summit and the Employment Insurance Fund and the Compensation Act.
We are currently developing of course, the labour migration policy to assist in the regulation of the employment of the foreign nationals and to complete the Immigration Act to guide the review and the conclusion of the bilateral government labour agreement, the skills transfer in case of employment of the needed scare skills. Thank you, Chairperson.
Dr Nkabane? Who is taking the question? Dr Dyantyi is taking the question.
Thank you, hon House Chair. It's a prophecy; I will follow the rule to become the doctor. [Laughter.] Hon Minister, as you have mentioned that you will build on existing plans and policies to address the
employment that would be designated as not requiring scares skills, when are you anticipating to finalise the development of the labour migration policy that will regulate the employment of foreign nationals and the employment policy, and also, how will you ensure that the existing initiatives and programmes are assessed by rural communities as in most of the cases they are the ones who are left out? Thank you very much.
The Labour
Migration Policy as per our plans will be completed before the end of the financial year. We are at a stage where we are reviewing the draft document and once we have completed that, we have to send it to the National Economic Development and Labour Council, Nedlac, where all the social partners will have to comment on that. Then after that Nedlac process, it will go into Cabinet. Well, our plans and projections are that before the end of the financial year, we should have done that and have come to Parliament.
In terms of the employment policy, we are developing this, maybe in 12 months, we would be having that. But,
we must emphasise one thing, once you talk about the employment policy, as our economy is extending and trade to the Southern African Development Community, SADC, region and even to the continent, we also need an employment policy for the region, not just for South Africa. That's the reality which we are talking about.
In terms of extending these services to the rural areas, our 126 labour centres, which are helping the young people, we are extending them into the rural areas and we would like to add more so that we have more in the rural areas. Thank you.
Hon Minister, the Department of Employment and Labour should be trying to make it easier for businesses; particularly small businesses to absorb relatively unskilled workers into productive employment. With that in mind, do you support the proposal put forward in Treasury's recently released economic strategy document that government should consider full or partial exemptions for small businesses from certain labour regulations? In particular, do you support exempting
small businesses from the extension of bargaining council agreements? Thank you.
There are
processes already in the legislation. For those who want exemptions, they are supposed to apply and state their cases and properly investigated. If their cases are genuine, they can be exempted, but if they are not because they must disclose everything including their finances because some of the employers, they want to hide behind this. We are not taking a rigid approach, but we cannot just pass laws and then do not want to implement them. That's our approach.
Thank you, House Chair. Minister, the secretarial bargaining councils, they have no mechanisms to detect exploitation of unskilled labour, neither they have monitoring skill in terms of the industries they serve in to check what they do and how many they are.
Secondly, there is no clear law to protect the infant industries in South Africa, which by far, they employ the bulk of unskilled labour. That's where you can get more
people employed for South Africa. Will your department stop the barbaric actions, in fact, the barbaric bylaws by different municipalities that seek to destroy the infant industries like the hawkers you find in Johannesburg in the town, the old people that are selling chips at schools and everything that are removed by the JMPD and they are removed by law enforcement? Also, do you have any relationship with small businesses to create employment? [Time expired.]
The labour laws are meant to apply to all the employees. However, there are problems in relation to the informal sector. I think the formal sector is properly regulated by the laws. But in the informal sector, there is a problem because some of those employers are not even registered with the various or meeting the various conditions which have been put for them. It's something which we have to look into. But still, they remain the employers and they must comply.
Like in the previous question, they want to be exempted. We have to exempt them, but we don't have a special law
to protect them because you can't regulate each and everything. Thank you.
Madam House Chair, thank you. Hon Minister, in light of shifting labour market an eminent Fourth Industrial Revolution, which will the labour market require new and different skills, I will like to know whether your department has plan to ensure that the labour market is adequately supplied with the demand by South African citizens? I thank you.
I think we must
remember that when we are talking about this Fourth Industrial Revolution, there have been revolutions before. The first one, which was the industrialisation, that was a revolution on its own, which was shifting from the hand to a number of other things, steam power and so on. Then there was also a second revolution, which started talking about the issue of mechanisation and so on and so on. They talked about the third revolution. So, this shift is always going to be there. But what is important is, we need to talk about the upskilling, the
retraining and the training of the workers. What we must accept is that we can't stop the technological changes.
So, today you are talking about the Fourth Industrial Revolution, which is linked to digitisation, automation, you can mention all the other things. But the reality is, we will have to prepare the workers. I think the Minister of Mineral Resources and Energy was talking about a just transition. As long as we ensure that that revolution is also human centred, we are able to skill our people so that they are able to participate into that.
We must accept that we have to invest in our people. For now, you know that the Minister of Finance will tell you that our unemployment is mainly structural linked to the issue of the skills, which means; we have to double our efforts in terms of skilling the people, giving them the basic skills, but also giving them the modern skills to face the challenges of the new technologies and so on. Thank you.
Question 179:
The MINISTER OF ENVIRONMENTAL AFFAIRS, FORESTRY AND
FISHERIES: Hon Modise, the department is in the process of rolling out a small-scale fisheries sector programme whereby a total of over 10 000 individuals from traditional fishing communities along the coastline of South Africa are currently being granted access to marine resources for commercial and food security purposes through a cooperative model.
This right of access is for duration of 15 years. The details of this programme are as follows; in 2018 the department allocated the first 15 years small-scale fishing rights to two co-ops in the Northern Cape. On 19 October 2019, I handed over 15-year fishing rights to seven small-scale co- operatives in the Ugu District Municipality of KwaZulu-Natal with 467 declared small- scale fisherpeople who stand to benefit directly from the access to marine resources for commercial and food security purposes. This handover of fishing rights marks the beginning of small-scale rights allocations in KwaZulu-Natal that will see fishing rights granted to over 36 co-operatives involving 2 184 individual fisherpeople.
Next month in the Eastern Cape, small-scale fishing co- operatives will be granted small-scale rights. There are 75 cooperatives involved involving 5 335 individuals. In the Western Cape, small-scale fishing cooperatives have been registered with the Companies and Intellectual Property Commission and they will be assisted to receive their fishing rights by December 2019.
With the introduction of this small-scale fisheries sector, the department will provide the necessary support to these fishing cooperatives as well as allocating fishing rights this support includes ensuring that the co-operatives are sustainable and looking for ways to improve the value chain and access to markets. Thank you very much.
House Chair, is the Minister satisfied with the progress made so far? If not, what are the plans to accelerate the progress made pertaining to the transformation of the sector? And also, how will the department assist those indigenous communities living along the oceans to have access to the sector so that they are able to sustain their livelihoods? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF ENVIRONMENTAL AFFAIRS, FORESTRY AND
FISHERIES: These rights that I have documented that we are in the process of issuing are intended for indigenous communities that live along with the coastal sector. Where we think we still have a problem with regard to transformation in the fisheries sector is when we look at the commercial fishing rights.
And you would know that we have a process which is underway at the moment to issue licences for 12 fisheries that will conclude in 2021, those are commercial fisheries and obviously one of the criteria is going to be to support new entrants and to make sure that we continue with the transformation of the sector.
Point of Order!
What is your point of order hon Ndlozi?
House Chairperson, on a point of order: The Minister is speaking to us with an earphone. Is she being told answers from the interpretation room?
Hon member! Hon member No! [Interjections.]
Why when she is speaking she has a thing here? [Interjections.]
Hon member that is not a point of order, I am going to cut you off.
Is there a different Minister in those rooms there? Huh?
Hon Singh, it is your time now.
My earphones are off ... [Interjections.] hon Minister, thank you very much for being in KwaZulu-Natal last week, an area where I reside, and handing over those fishing rights to the indigenous community.
Now, not even 10 nautical miles north of there, hon Minister, our community fishermen, subsistence fishermen who have been fishing for decades but there is a move to
prevent these people from fishing along this coast for no scientific reasons other than people who have had the privilege of building expensive cottages on the beach in the 80s and 60s and before 1994 I think are preventing people from coming and fishing in front of their homes.
So, will you give this House an assurance that if there is a ban on fishing or any restriction it will be based purely on scientific reasons and not on these reasons which are racially-based? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF ENVIRONMENTAL AFFAIRS, FORESTRY AND
FISHERIES: Hon Singh, my understanding is that beaches in this country can not be privatised by individual property owners. It is also my understanding that only the Department of Environmental Affairs, Forestry and Fisheries can issue fishing rights.
So, if you have particular individuals who are taking over this function from us, please supply me with their names, we will deal with them.
Chair, we are conscious of the needs of small-scale fishermen and we trust that the Minister will not address these by sacrificing resources in the longer term.
In this regard, West Coast Rock Lobster is an important species for small- scale fishermen and this year's catch has been pegged at last year's levels.
Will the Minister make available the recommendations of her scientific working group that set this limit so that the justification for the latest total allowable catch, TAC, can be scrutinised? And if she is not going to do that, please, could she tell us why not?
The MINISTER OF ENVIRONMENTAL AFFAIRS, FORESTRY AND
FISHERIES: Hon Lorimer, you are a member of the portfolio committee; you have the right to an oversight on anything that the department does. So, I can not understand why you think you would be prevented.
Chairperson, Minister, a quota allocation is the only access to the first stage of the fishing
value chain. Small-scale fishers like in Hermanus are given an allocation of 200kg of abalone for a season. Abalone internationally costs R800 per kilo.
But a Chinese-owned processing plant in Hermanus pays these small-scale fishers R500 per kilo because they have got the facility to clean and to process the abalone.
So, what is the department doing to assist these small- scale fishers to participate in other phases or stages of the value chain so that they can actually benefit from that 200kg of abalone they catch?
And these Chinese people, they have better access to markets than your department, in fact, your department's officials used to sell the abalone that they took from the poachers to these processing companies.
The MINISTER OF ENVIRONMENTAL AFFAIRS, FORESTRY AND
FISHERIES: Thank you very much hon Paulsen, one of the issues that we have to address if we are going to make a meaningful difference to these communities is the issue of access to markets and in particular we have to take
out the middle people that in many instances are nothing better than mashonisas [loan sharks] and are exploiting these fisher people and exploiting their poverty and locking them in endless cycles of debt.
We already have an app that has been developed by a nongovernmental organisation that aims to link up fisherpeople directly with markets, with restaurants and with other people who would want to purchase their products. We are in the process of exploring that option because we think it is one way in which these small fishing communities can get a better price for their goods. But, you are absolutely correct that if we do not focus on the issue of market access then in fact, all we are doing is consigning these people - even if they have rights - to perpetual poverty.
Question 166:
Chairperson, the country's reserves were not impacted by the drone strikes in the facilities in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. The limited output of crude oil in Saudi Arabia as a result of the drone strike also has no impact
on the grades and qualities of strategic stock that South Africa maintains, since the country only stock piles grades from Nigeria and Iraq. Therefore, the status of the republic strategic fuel reserves remains the same as pre drone strikes on the oil facilities in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. So it has no impact at all. Thank you.
House Chairperson, I find it very interesting Minister that you say the reserves are Nigeria and Iraq when 44% of our oil are crude oil imports in South Africa come from the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia.
The 1996 Energy White Paper mandates the Strategic Fuel Fund, SFF, must hold 90 days supply of fuel stock for South Africa's refineries, which is in line with global standards. Then there was a Draft Strategic Fuel Stocks Policy which has been under discussion 2013 and that suggest that there should be a 60day stock holding. Then there is a ministerial directive that says no, we only need a 10.3milion barrel which is about 18days cover.
Minister, the question is this, given that former Minister Joemat- Pettersson sold off our strategic reserve and it is currently sitting in the tanks somewhere and I am well aware of that. But we can't touch it because it is a subject of a court case. So nobody knows who actually owns that. Given that, that is the case, what will you do in the event of an emergency requiring the release of the strategic fuel reserve?
The
question was not about crude oil supply to South Africa. Your question was about strategic stock. And we are saying to you we only stockpile grades from Nigeria and Iraq, others are in the sector. So that means the strategic stocks are from the remaining 56% of oil supply. I thought you would understand that if you say Saudi Arabia supplies 44%, it doesn't supply 44% of strategic stock, it supplies 44% of crude oil to South Africa. But on stock piling, we keep the oil from Nigeria and Iraq. So it has no effect.
I don't think I should answer you on the other strategic pile - the rotation stock that we are resolving. We will
bring the report to you once we have resolved that matter. It is not the question today.
Chairperson, firstly...
IsiXhosa:
... sithi aba tat'uMqwathi nceda usigade ukuze angasiphindi uNongqawuse aba bangaphesheya bafuna ukusibuyisela kuye. [Kwahlekwa.]
English:
The geopolitical balance of forces appears to be unstable and much of the instability in the world is around the giant energy producing nations. What is the government doing to ensure that the South African economy has security of supply of fuel in order to protect our people from the ebbs and flows of global energy markets? Thank you very much.
It is quite
correct, hon Luzipho that the powerful nations use all of us as pawns in a chessboard. Our starting point and line of defence is to ensure that we look after the interest
and needs of our country. Everything else must follow. The biggest mistake we can do is to comply and relegate a national interest and needs to the back banner. When you do that we will diversify sources of energy to South Africa. We get oil from Nigeria, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Angola so that we don't get stuck at the slightest provocation by any nation. That is where we are and we will maintain that policy and hopeful that one day we will discover our own oil reserves as the exploration is happening.
House Chair, hon Minister, in light of the unfortunate events with regards to the xenophobic and afrophobic attacks in our country ... One of our crude oil partners which is Nigeria has any threat ever been made against the South African government by Nigeria in stopping its export of crude oil to our country?
You will
notice that since what you describe as xenophobic or afrophobic - that needs a debate on its own to give a definition to that conflict. It needs its own definition in the sense that at the height of it twelve people died,
only two were non South Africans and 10 were South Africans. That means if it was a xenophobic attack, it was a xenophobic attack against ourselves in the main. So the definition of that incident would need to be redefined properly so that we don't get confused by this issue.
However, we took time to send an envoy to Nigeria which was immediately followed by the state visit by the President of Nigeria. Meaning that we are serious about our relationship. We are resisting the possibility of our relation being derailed by incidents. Because in the continent they will be many incidents. If we want to be excited, we can destroy our relationship. So our relationship with Nigeria is on a firm footing.
Hon Minister, you earlier on indicated that there is a report with regard to the stockpile which was sold irregular. I want to check with you, do we have a proclamation number of the Special Investigative Unity, SIU, with regard to that or do we have an SAPS case number? Because, such sales have got an element of
thieving. Do we know who did it? Did we lose anything and how are we recovering it?
We have the
detailed report and we have a sense of who is involved. But when you run with a process of that nature what you avoid all the time is to put the cart before the horse. You follow steps painstakingly, step by step and you see ... [Interjections.]
IsiXhosa:
... uyaphendulwa, uyakhwaza, ingxaki ke leyo, uyaphendulwa, uyakhwaza. Ufuna wenziwe ntoni ke ngoku? [Kwahlekwa.]
English:
We are following each step of the process in that regard. That is why I can confirm to you that there is a report. The case has been reported to the police. The SIU has taken an interest on it. But as we go through the process in due course we will report to Parliament. We don't just take unprocessed reports to Parliament before we understand why we have to bring them here, what is it and
what are the outcomes and what are the expectations? We have that process and the report is there.
Where is the case number?
You want
the case number...
IsiXhosa:
... ufuna ukuya emapoliseni ngoku?
Question 154:
In dealing
with the price of electricity from renewable company, the starting point cannot be cancellation of contracts. That is a wrong starting point. But we are negotiating with suppliers of energy from renewable companies and at the same time, we are talking to coal producers to reduce the prices of supply to Eskom.
The reason to reduce those prices is because we did some investigations and we discovered that some of the coal producers make 50, 70 or 100% profits. Therefore, our aim
is not to kill businesses, but we want people to make reasonable profit and get returns from their investments. So in this regard, we are busy with that process and we are not negotiating cancelation. Instead, we are negotiating the adjustment of the prices downwards.
Therefore, we are talking to Eskom and National Energy Regulator of SA, Nersa, to actually give us what we call administered prices by reducing the actual price of Eskom to the areas of industrialisation in the economy.
Hon Shivambu will take care of the follow up question.
Chair, I notice that most of the DA members are on their earphones listening to the resignation of Mmusi Maimane, but let's deal with this question. [Laughter.] Now Minister, we agree that at the centre of Eskom's crisis it's these power purchase agreement: Firstly, you can't underestimate the negative impact it is costing on the financial stability of Eskom, and what we raised yesterday about the coal prices.
Okay, in terms of coal prices, you say that you are negotiating. Why don't you just give an instruction that all the coal prices must be consistent with what Nersa has determined? Why would you want to take forever because you are just delaying the crisis? If it's going to take the approach that you are taking, it is not going to help you anyhow in terms of what should effectively happen.
So, the issue is: Why don't you just comply with the Nersa instructions in terms of coal, and then deal with the independent negotiation of power purchase agreements by Eskom, because Eskom is not involved now with these IPPs. Someone else imposes those contracts on Eskom. This becomes entirely problematic and it causes huge chaos in terms of its financial stability.
Can't we take a different approach in terms of how we stabilising Eskom instead of throwing money like we did yesterday through that nonsensical Special Appropriation Bill?
Hon
Shivambu, for better part of my life I was an activist opposing a government. Now, when you are in an opposition and opposing a government, you have all the ready answers because you take no responsibility. Now, in our case, we understand that we can't just give instructions in a constitutional democracy.
You need to talk to those producers because Eskom procured coal and signed contracts. Therefore, what we are intervening at is to say that the contracts are too costly for Eskom. Can we have a sense of saying as it was up to the early 90s that, the price of coal for domestic was indexed, and export prices were also indexed, and at that time, those prices were never the same?
Therefore, we say that the same practice can be reintroduced. But if you want stability, you do that by engaging the coal producers. The same applies to Integrated Resource Plan, IRP, windows 1, 2 and 3. Again, there was a risk taken to introduce the technology. That is what our argument is about, that risk has been subsidised by the state.
Therefore, let's talk to one another and agree on reducing it, so that there is stability in Eskom. We can then talk of administered prices for customers who are intensive consumers of electricity. We are only the strange country that go out there and ask people to consume less of the product that we are producing. It only happens with Eskom, and when there is a decline in demand, we think that it's a positive development and it's not.
Decline in demand of electricity is a sign of the industrialisation. So, we are dealing with that with an open mind, and we are appreciating of the fact that we are not dictatorial; we are managing an economy of the country.
Through you Chairperson, Minister, the IRP that you promulgated on Friday, both the correct and the incorrect versions, identify renewable energy as the least cost option, and the quickest to bring online in the short term. However, in your briefing on Friday you said that you have opted for a low-cost option, taking into account other factors.
But economic estimates place a costing South Africa more than R100 billion more than the least-cost option. So, the low-cost option that you are proposing is R100 billion more for South Africa than the least-cost option. Will you inform this House why you are not in favour of the cheapest and quickest solution to our electricity crisis?
My first
reason is that, I'm not a lobbyist for any technology ... [Interjections.] There you are. I'm not a lobbyist for any technology. That's the first reason. The second one is my understanding of cost-effectiveness is not meaning literally cheap. It means cost-effectiveness factors in all the other factors and times.
That's why when you talk about, for an example, nuclear; many of the lobbyists for other alternative technologies will always say that nuclear is expensive. You have to remind them that nuclear is expensive at commissioning and decommissioning. When it is operational, it is efficient, it is effective and it is low-cost. So, we have published the IRP which opens up spaces for the
entrepreneurs and everybody who wants to play in that space in whatever technology is there.
We have two primary preoccupations. The first one is sustainable and secured supply of energy to the country, and the second one is that we must comply with our commitment to the Paris Agreement.
Through you hon House chair, hon Minister, considering that the cost of renewable energy has declined dramatically in the last decade, and that renewables form a key element of the nongrid connections to rural areas. What is the government's long-term strategy to procure renewable energy in order to ultimately lower the price of electricity and achieve the National Development Plan, NDP, target of full electrification by 2030? Thank you.
Psalm 121
is giving us a lesson to lift our eyes to the mountains. Now, that approach doesn't work in managing the economy. You don't swing like a pendulum because you are anticipating a lower price into the future. Window 1, 2
and 3 are very much expensive, and that is the reality we are dealing with.
Window 4 is kicking in very reasonable 108 Photovoltaic, PV, 87c wind and somebody wanted us to say we declare that on a certain date there will be window 5. I always tell them that, actually, there will be window 20. We will go through all these windows until we reach window 20 or window 30.
But the reality of the matter is that, in doing so, we must be systematic and follow the logic of security of energy for the country, and that's where we are.
Through you House Chair, hon Minister, regarding Eskom's inability to sufficiently supply continuous electricity over the past decade, I would like to ask you whether government has a plan to stimulate and deregulate the energy sector to allow the independent power producers, IPPs, entrances in order to promote stability, competition and spread the risk of power outrages regarding energy supply in South Africa? Thank you very much.
Sometimes
you'll think that everybody notices things, but it's not like that. Generation of electricity in South Africa is diversified; it's no longer a monopoly of Eskom. It is diversified, and our assumption is that, that will continue into the future.
That's why you need to look at the numbers that are provided for in the IRP. We appreciate the fact that it's going to grow faster than other sources. The IRP says so. Therefore, just take time to read the IRP so that you can understand that actually, renewables have been given the biggest allocation in terms of growth, though by 2030 coal will still be a dominant source of energy.
We have 16 power stations and we are not going to switch them. I don't subscribe to the principle that we must switch all coal power stations and bring fresh air in darkness, I don't subscribe to that. We should actually work on the supply and manage the transition. That is what I believe in.
Question 185:
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, LAND REFORM AND RURAL
DEVELOPMENT (Mr M Skwatsha): Hon Chair, thank you for the question, the objective of the Communal Property Association Act of 1996 is to enable communities to form juristic persons in order to acquire, hold and manage the property on a basis agreed to by members of a community in terms of a written Constitution. Whilst economic viability of these entities is essential and desirable, the ultimate measure is whether these entities manage their affairs, including assets in accordance with the will of their members.
Current mechanisms put in place to ensure sustainability and economic viability. Some CPAs exercise control over substantial assets, the extent to which the exercise good corporate governance and maintain institutional stability turn to have positive results on their economic performance. The department therefore places special focus on the training of executives of CPAs in good corporate governance. CPAs also have been encouraged to get together at district level, to establish district forums that facilitate learning. This approach has had its limitations and is therefore under review at the
moment. CPAs that controls substantial resources have had an unfortunate trend of massive conflict amongst members and sometimes between members and their leaders.
The department provides specialist mediation services to help CPA members find one another and work together. A lot of resources are therefore invested in this regard. There are instances where either the degree of maladministration and institutional stability, render CPAs unable to perform their functions. This sometimes results in the director-general pursuant to a court order taking over the management of the affairs of a CPA to a degree of stability is achieved.
Future mechanisms to ensure sustainability, there is collaboration being explored with institutions of higher learning to provide customised training to all willing members of CPAs and effectively in a language that the community understands. The language spoken by the majority of CPA members is identified and CPA founding documents get translated into that particular language in order to encourage effective participation of members in the affairs. In instances where CPAs do not have the
necessary infrastructure to keep records, the department and its district offices make available basic CPA documents like a Constitution, membership lists, etc. Streets enforcement of existing legal mechanisms is undertaken to discourage rogue CPA executives from operating in a manner that is inconsistent with the aspirations of the CPA membership. The departmental CPA monitoring capacity is underway to be improved in order to better understand the needs of CPAs and provides on time support.
Lastly, the possibility of deconsolidating big CPAs that comprise of various communities, who do not regard themselves as a single community is being explored. I thank you.
Thank you, House Chair, hon Deputy Minister thank very much for your comprehensive response, however, I hope you will agree with me that the intention of the amendment to the Communal Property Association Act of 1996 was to address many challenges that the department had experience in implementing the act over the years. These challenges range from literacy to
capacity in as-far-as the capabilities of CPAs is concerned. In view of the latter, what role will the recent Amendment Bill play in ensuring effective operations of the CPAs? Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, LAND REFORM AND RURAL
DEVELOPMENT (Mr M Skwatsha): The Parliament of the Republic of South Africa, particularly the fifth administration had been going through the amendments with the very fine comb, in order to look at exactly the limitations the hon member is referring to. Therefore, the amendments are specifically to address the limitations, trying to close all gaps and make sure that there is smooth running. One of the problems that we do have is also the laxity and the members themselves, not taking serious the period of making sure that the executive is accountable.
I have referred also to the fact that the department does all sports training in relation to these people so that they can better understand. You are dealing here with people who are now administering large assets, large quantities of money and therefore they should be so
empowered to understand their role and the fact that the resources are not necessarily theirs. It is for the sake of the general membership of the respective CPAs. Thank you.
IsiZulu:
Ngiyathokoza Sihlalo weNdlu, mhlonishwa umuntu akakuthokozele ukuphendula ngokweqiniso ukuthi kukhona uqhekeko olukhona kuma-CPAs, kodwa ke la ngizocela ukuphambuka khona lapho umhlonishwa ethi uMnyango kukhona okwenzayo okungcono ukuthi abantu bayoqeqeshwa ukuze zingabibikho lezi zinto ezidalekayo phakathi kwabo ukuthi kubekhona uqhekeko nezingxabano. Okokugcina, kwezinye izindawo kukhona ekutheni kube khona abanye ababulawayo. Kungekudala nje kukhona omunye odutshulwe ngale KwaZulu-Natali obeyingxenye yekomidi kodwa bekuyi-Trust, hhayi i-CPA. Kepha ke iyafana i- Trust ne-CPA.
Mhlonishwa angisho lokhu nganelisekile ngempendulo yakho. Lingakanani iqiniso ukuthi uMnyango uyaphuma uyofundisa abantu? Ngokubuka uMnyango ufike ugqinsile iTayitela esizweni - nangu umhlaba sinithengele wona, khethani
ikomidi, sebenzani. Kumbalwa uma kungukuthi ufice lapho khona kuyekwenzeka lolo qeqesho lokuthi abantu bazi. Le nto ifaka imindeni eminingi nabantu abaningi abathi bengena nje bacabange ukuthi akube yimali. Bethi umhlaba abawuthandi kangako ngakho ke baphephela ekutheni kungcono ubuyiselwe emuva banikezwe izimali. Mhlonishwa ngikhulekela isivinini eMnyangweni wakho ukuthi akusheshe uyoqeqeshwa abantu ukuze kuphele izingxabano nokuxoveka kwemiphakathi yethu ngenxa yama-CPA. Ngiyabonga.