Chairperson, enkosi kuMaNgwenya ngombuzo [I would like to thank MaNgwenya for the question].
Firstly, the HIV and syphilis prevalence study was completed in February 2007 and the final report was provided to the department in May 2007. Secondly, the results have not been made available because the department had to ensure that the results were valid, reliable and in accordance with national and international standards before any announcements could be made on them. The service provider, assisted by external experts, was requested to present the results to top management in the department.
The department is in the process of preparing for the announcement of the results and it is envisaged that this will happen as part of the departmental build-up to the national World Aids Day event which will be addressed by the Deputy Minister of Correctional Services. It will be held on 30 November 2007.
Furthermore, the HIV and syphilis prevalence study was undertaken to inform the strategies and policies of the department. The department will therefore review its current policies and procedures, based on the results of the HIV and syphilis prevalence study, to improve access to comprehensive HIV and Aids programmes and services.
I must mention in the same breath that this morning one of our centres was accredited as an ARV centre and that is Brandvlei correctional centre in the Western Cape - you can reach it by going up the mountain. The Deputy Minister hosted that ceremony and did the accrediting of Brandvlei this morning.
The department has already commenced with the process to align its framework for comprehensive HIV/Aids programmes and services to the National Strategic Plan for HIV/Aids and Sexually Transmitted Infections for 2007-11. The first draft of the framework was presented at the meeting of the SA National Aids Council. We were represented by the Deputy Minister in the meeting of the council in September 2007 and that draft framework was received positively by members of Sanac. Thank you.
Ngiyabonga, Sihlalo. Ngqongqoshe Wezokuhlunyeleliswa Kwezimilo, yiziphi izinqinamba ohlangabezana nazo eMnyangweni Wezokuhlunyeleliswa Kwezimilo mayelana nokunikeza usizo olwanele eziboshweni ezinegciwane lengculaza? Ngiyabonga. (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)
[Ms W NGWENYA: Thank you, Chairperson. Hon Minister of Correctional Services, what obstacles do you come across within the Department of Correctional Services in connection with the delivery of substantial services to prisoners who are living with HIV? Thank you.]
Thank you again for that question, MaNgwenya. We are doing everything that we can to make sure that we look after those ...
... abaneNtsholongwane kaGawulayo nabasezintolongweni zethu. Olu phando lwenziweyo lwenzelwe ukuba sikwazi ukubanika uncedo kangangoko sinako. Yiloo nto sisebenzisana kakhulu neSebe lezeMpilo. Siyalibulela kakhulu eli sebe ngokusebenzisana nathi. Lilo elinika imvume yokukhupha amachiza adodobalisa ulwamvila lukaGawulayo, ii-ARV kumaziko ethu, kwaye ikwakula maziko apho kufumaneka khona isondlo.
Kanti ke, MaNgwenya, xa bebonwe ngoogqirha kwaqatshelwa ukuba amajoni omzimba aloo mntu okanye i-CD4 count ngesilungu, sele yehle kakhulu, sinento ekuthiwa kukukhululwa kwamabanjwa ngezizathu zempilo enkenenkene, ekuthiwa yi-medical parole ngamakhumsha, eyenziwa ngoogqirha ababini nabathathu, abathi baxilonge bejonga ukuba loo mntu ukufanele kusini na ukuba agoduswe ngenxa yokuba ubomi bakhe bukwimeko embi. Eso sicelo sibuya size kuMphathiswa, ibe nguye otyikityayo. Sithetha nje, ukhona omnye okule meko oza kukhululwa agoduke aye kunyangelwa ekhaya ngezizathu zempilo ukuze abantu bangaswelekeli entolongweni zingekho izizalwane zabo. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraphs follows.)
[... who are infected with HIV/Aids in our correctional service centres. This enquiry was made in order to support them as much as possible. It is for that reason that we are working closely with the Department of Health. We express our gratitude to the department for working with us. This is the department which accredited our centres to provide ARVs which suppress HIV/Aids. Support grants are also provided in these centres.
However, MaNgwenya, when their doctors test them and discover that their CD4 counts are very low, we have what is known as medical parole, performed by two or three doctors. They test whether the person deserves to be released due to the state of his or her health. The request is then handed over to the Minister for his signature. There is an inmate, as we speak, who is in this condition and is going to be released for health reasons and be treated at home so that people do not die in correctional centres away from their relatives.]
Chairperson and Minister, there is an undisputedly higher incidence of HIV/Aids in all correctional centres than within the average general population. As a result, it's much easier to roll out a comprehensive HIV/Aids programme to a so-called "captive audience" than to the population at large and yet despite this conducive situation, only a handful of correctional centres are accredited to administer antiretrovirals. How many correctional centres are accredited to date, and when do you anticipate that all correctional centres, country-wide, will be fully accredited?
Thank you very much, hon member, for that question. There are quite a number of correctional centres that have been accredited and it's growing. If you were listening to my earlier response in isiXhosa - mhlawumbi khange undive [maybe you did not understand me] - I stated that we are working very closely with the Department of Health to make sure that we accredit centres. Surely, we are not going to be able to accredit all centres - all 243 of them in the country - but we will begin with the big ones, which is what we are doing at the present moment.
Again, I, firstly, take my hat off to the Department of Health because the process of accrediting a centre is a long one but we are getting there.
Secondly, we are rolling out the programme, as I mentioned that we are members of Sanac and therefore we have to be in line with government policy in what we are doing in the centres. We are marching at the same pace as government in terms of government policy and not in front of or behind it.
Regarding the statement where you say there is undisputedly a higher incidence of HIV/Aids infection in all correctional centres, I am not sure how many centres you have visited. However, I, who go to these centres, do not have those statistics and that is the reason we carried out this prevalence survey so that it gives us exactly the numbers that we want.
Remember, it is not easy to do that kind of survey and get the results that you think you will get. So I am not sure about your undisputed statistics and I would like to see you visit a centre with me so that we can then talk about that as we walk down the passages of our prisons.
Action taken against Accounting Officer, Director-General and members of audit committee in light of qualified audit by Auditor-General
360. Moulana M R Sayedali-Shah (DA) asked the Minister of Defence:
(1) Whether, in light of the qualified audit given to his department by the Auditor-General for the 2006-07 financial year (details furnished), any action has been taken against (a) the Accounting Officer, (b) the Director-General (name furnished) and (c) the members of the audit committee of his department (names furnished); if not, why not; if so, what action; (2) whether, with reference to his reply to Question 988 on 7 September 2006, any action had been taken against members of his department in respect of the qualified audit report for the 2004- 05 financial year; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details? NO2355E
Deputy Chairperson, the reply to question number one is that specific action has not been taken to replace the director-general or what we call the Secretary for Defence in the Department of Defence and members of the audit committee. Replacing the director-general or the Secretary for Defence and audit committee members may not resolve all the qualifications that the department faces between audit cycles. What would probably happen if we were to take the advice of the Auditor-General is that we might have to replace almost everybody every financial year.
Given the fact that the root causes of the qualifications relate to the constraints and challenges which require medium and long-term solutions, a structured approach to deal with these qualifications has been put in place. The accounting officer of the department, who is the Secretary for Defence, has committed himself to the project called Operation Clean Audit. He will hold all divisional chiefs and service chiefs to account on those areas where the department has received negative audit findings through the accountability management committee meetings of which he would be the chairperson. The answer to question number two is that no disciplinary action has been taken against any member of the Department of Defence regarding the qualifications contained in the 2004-05 audit report, as the three qualifications relate to ineffective internal control systems. The managers of the Department of Defence who are responsible for the internal control systems that had caused the three audit qualifications were called in by the accounting officer to account on this matter at the monthly AMC meetings. They were instructed to submit detailed action plans with target dates to effectively address the adverse findings.
These action plans and target dates are closely monitored by him and discussed at the AMC meetings by the audit committee on a quarterly basis. These are, however, complex issues that require systems enhancements, policy and procedural changes as well as structural changes. They will not be solved within one financial year but, rather, over a number of years. I thank you.
Thank you, Chairperson. Deputy Minister, in order to explain the discrepancies and the lack of financial accounting in the Department of Defence, the members continue to hide behind the fact that your department inherited an outdated financial management system which, admittedly, may have had a direct effect on the ability of the Department of Defence to address some of the system's related qualifications or emphasis of the matter by the Auditor-General. However, hon Deputy Minister, not everything can be blamed on or attributed to the old system. The Auditor-General has also indicated that many of the problems that are related to the Auditor-General's qualified report are direct consequences of noncompliance with the established internal accounting policies and procedures including lack of internal control, checks and balances.
Moreover, the asset registers that should accompany claims for expenditure are not maintained. For example, a total of R463,4 million for travel and subsistence claims was submitted without relevant supporting documents. An amount of R170 million in salary increases was not disclosed as well as another R959 000 for fruitless and wasteful expenditure which has been noted. Honestly, this is unacceptable and inexcusable. Action is certainly required.
You said that no action was taken against any member. So these issues are going to recur. You will see them in all annual reports - they will come again and again. People must be held accountable, Minister. That is what is expected of you, sir. What do you intend doing to bring those who are responsible to book? They must be held accountable. This can't go on. Thank you.
Deputy Chair, as I said, we are in the process of establishing internal control systems because that is our problem. I agree with you but I am not sure whether it would help us to fire people if we have no proper internal control systems and we are rectifying that. If we are going to fire people, who are we going to fire and who are we going to leave behind? If there are no proper internal control systems - and we have rectified this - then we might as well fire everybody. [Interjections.]
Your question is in fact linked to the next question but I am saying this again that we have established internal control systems to address the problems that we are facing as a department. It is a fact that we have inherited a bad system but I also agree with you when you say that we could have done this earlier. Thank you.
Deputy Minister, maybe you should answer the next question in another language so that the interpreters may give a different interpretation so that the DA can understand. I think we need to congratulate the department, firstly, for putting project Operation Clean Audit into place; and secondly, for the internal control systems that they have initiated amongst the commanders and the chiefs in the department.
Mr Chairperson, the Department of Defence informed the Portfolio Committee on Defence of the steps that have been put in place to address the shortcomings identified by the Auditor-General only yesterday. They did not only do that but they also informed the portfolio committee on the steps they have put in place regarding the shortcomings that the audit committee of the department has identified in the annual report. More than that, the Department of Defence will also interact with Scopa regarding the annual report, and more specifically regarding the shortcomings identified by the Auditor-General.
My question is: Do you agree that we should allow the parliamentary process regarding the Auditor-General's qualifications to be completed? If that process is then complete, will Parliament come with recommendations to this House as well as to the Department of Defence on what steps should be taken? That is a parliamentary and a democratic process that should be allowed and it should not be in the manner that the DA is proposing. Thank you.
Thank you very much, Chairperson. Like he says, that is the extensive report that we gave to the committee. That is exactly what we are trying to do and are going to do - to allow this whole process - the interaction with Scopa and the interaction with the portfolio committee. On the basis of the recommendations that will come, we will definitely make sure that all problems that exist, in terms of accounting in the department, will be rectified.
We are honest with you about the problems that we have with accounting in our department. We would be lying to you if we were to say that tomorrow we are just going to spin a coin and the problems will be solved. The problems need a systematic approach and that is exactly what we are doing.
Chairperson, I hear what the hon Deputy Minister is saying. I have been here for almost four years now, serving on Scopa, and the Defence Force has performed poorly in all of that time. There have been resolutions of Scopa - the hon Koornhof said that we must let the process go forward. My question is: Why have you not reacted earlier to the recommendations of Scopa - which are actually recommendations of this House and are adopted by it? Can you tell us what sort of timeframes we can expect before you finally get to a point where we can get a clean report? It is of no use saying that it is a process. There has to be an end to the process at some stage or other.
Deputy Chairperson, what I was saying was that there is a process that we have started together - that is with the portfolio committee and Scopa. That process will definitely have timeframes. It is not advisable for me to just come and stand here and say that this is the time that it will take for the process to be completed.
I must also say that it is not correct to say that we have done nothing. There have been corrective measures taken. One of the key things which was not happening before was that there was a process where all chiefs of services were involved but they were not accounting to the Chief of the National Defence Force. They all now account to the Chief of the National Defence Force and he in turn works with the committee. So, there are some steps that have already been taken. But I assure you that, like you are saying, you will be part of the committee. You will come with the timeframes and we will make sure that those timeframes are met. Thank you.
Steps taken to determine who was responsible for unverifiable travel and subsistence claims
362. Adv H C Schmidt (DA) asked the Minister of Defence:
(1) Whether, in light of his department having received a qualified audit report from the Auditor-General for the 2006-07 financial year, the amount of R463,4 million for unverifiable travel and subsistence claims includes the trip taken by the Deputy President, Ms Phumzile Mlambo-Ngcuka, to the United Kingdom at the end of 2006; if not, in what section of his department's annual report is the expenditure for this trip reported;
(2) whether his department has taken any steps to determine who was responsible for these claims; if not, why not; if so, (a) what steps and (b) who was responsible;
(3) whether any action has been taken against those responsible; if not, why not; if so, what action? NO2358E
Deputy Chairperson, no! The Department of Defence only paid for the aircraft to transport the Deputy President on the trip in question. A Subsistence and Travel allowance is issued by the President. Whenever we issue or give an aircraft to members of the Executive or to the Presidency, we only provide them with the aircraft. We don't pay their Subsistence and Travel allowance and we don't pay for any other additional expenses.
The answer to paragraph 2 is no. The R463,4 million is not a case of human error but of two financial systems in the Department of Defence that are not integrated. As a result, the Auditor-General cannot trace the transactions back to the source documents. The answer to paragraph 3 is that the Department of Defence is currently in the process of finding a solution to the problem by combining the information of the two systems in an information management centre. As a result, the Department of Defence has developed plans to implement the integrated financial management system which should be in line with the National Treasury's expectations. I thank you.
Voorsitter, Adjunkminister, die snelle optrede teenoor die Adjunkminister van Gesondheid, agb Nozizwe Madlala-Routledge, ten einde ongemagtigde uitgawes ten opsigte van reiskostes te verhaal, staan in skerpe kontras met u en u departement se reaksie ten opsigte van die ondersoeke en optredes in die geval van die Adjunkpresident en ander gevalle, soos gereflekteer in die Ouditeur-generaal se verslag. Wat is die redes hiervoor? (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)
[Mr R J KING: Chairperson, Deputy Minister, the rapid response towards the Deputy Minister of Health, the hon Nozizwe Madlala-Routledge, in order to recoup unauthorised travelling expenses is in shrill contrast with you and your department's reaction with respect to the investigations and behaviour in the case of the Deputy President and other cases as reflected in the Auditor-General's report. What are the reasons for this?]
Well, the hon member is asking me about my feelings. If I were to talk about my feelings I might talk the whole day. But I did not come here to talk about my feelings. I came here to account to Parliament and to answer questions that are relevant. What I have said is that the trip of the Deputy President was authorised, that's number one.
Number two is that we only provided the Deputy President with an aircraft. As to the Subsistence and Travel allowance costs and others, they are not incurred by the Department of Defence; they are incurred by the Presidency as with any other Executive member. If we provide an Executive member with an aircraft, we do not provide for other costs. The costs are taken care of by the department concerned.
If we give an aircraft to the Minister of Safety and Security to go to Burundi, we only provide the Minister with the aircraft, pilots and flight attendants, and the rest of the costs in terms of the Subsistence and Travel allowance are paid by the department. Thank you very much.
Chairperson, Minister can you assure the House that all air travel expenses by members of the Department of Defence, members of the Executive and whoever else might use air travel by the department will be properly accounted for in future financial statements of the department? [Interjections.]
Thank you very much, Ms Van Wyk. Definitely! The reason why we are engaged in this integrated system is to make sure that we account for every amount of money that is voted by this Parliament. It is the responsibility of any department and we cannot be an exception. We commit ourselves that any money spent by the department will be accounted for. I thank you.
Chairperson, in spite of the promises by the Deputy Minister that this and that will happen, the fact of the matter is that we understand that you have had this old financial accounting system. Now you have this new project that you are talking about, the new Integrated Financial Management, the IFM system, which is soon to be implemented. I don't know what the delay is but hopefully that will resolve the problem. However, what would explain the fact that you don't even keep proper asset registers? I am repeating this again because you made a promise in response to the hon member that this would not happen again but you have made these promises before and this matter is still left unresolved. There is no change, so why should we believe that things will improve?
Deputy Chairperson, we are in the process of restructuring our asset management and that report is already being tabled in the defence staff council. It is going to be tabled in the Portfolio Committee on Defence so that it can be finalised. I am saying that's what we are doing, but unfortunately, I cannot make you, Mr Shah, believe me.
If you don't want to believe me, I can only tell you what is happening and plead with you that ... [Interjections.] I don't want to convince you but the only reason why I'm pleading with you is that, Mr Shah, surely, come the end of the financial year, you will have an opportunity to check whether what I am saying is true or not.
So, let's not engage ourselves in whether you believe me or not because that is not the issue. You will have a chance. Once we have finalised the project we will surely come here to Parliament and, in any case, even if we don't, after the financial year we will be bound to come and account to Parliament and you will be able to check whether what we are saying is true or not. So let's leave it at that. Thank you very much.
Deputy Chairperson, Deputy Minister, I just wanted to find out; I think you said that the Auditor-General couldn't trace a person to verify which person is responsible. What does that mean? Does it mean that the department doesn't know or the Auditor-General doesn't know and therefore there is nobody who will be disciplined at the end of the day, because if you are saying that, that is a problem because somebody has to be responsible at the end of the day and that somebody has to be fired. If the Auditor-General and the department can't identify that person, then what will happen?
Deputy Chairperson, I think Mr Ndlovu misunderstood or probably he didn't understand me. What I said was not that persons could not be traced. I was referring to the source documents which are very important for any decision-making. It is the source documents which could not be traced - not the individuals, but the source documents.
And I have given the reason why that situation has arisen where we were using two systems in an information management centre and that is exactly where the problem is and this is what we have resolved by creating one financial management system. Thank you.
Minister's stance on warrant issued and action to be taken against a certain person
352. Ms D Kohler-Barnard (DA) asked the Minister of Safety and Security:
(1) Whether he was informed of a warrant that was issued for the arrest of a certain person (name furnished); if not, why not; if so, what are the charges stipulated in the warrant;
(2) whether the said person will be suspended from all public duties until the matter is resolved; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details;
(3) whether he (a) has received any briefing from the President regarding this matter and (b) will reveal the circumstances surrounding the issue of the warrant for the arrest of the said person; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details?