Hon Speaker, let me first express my appreciation to the mayors and municipal managers of all 283 municipalities for having taken the time to attend the meeting that was held in Khayelitsha on 20 October 2009. We had fruitful discussions and the meeting was a success.
One of the recommendations of the meeting was that government should do everything possible to address the major challenges facing local government. We also resolved that we needed to capacitate municipalities and strengthen intergovernmental relations in order to improve delivery of services to the people. We also resolved that we would improve governance, financial and administrative capacities in some municipalities, root out corruption and address the political problems that are causing great delays in service delivery.
Furthermore, we agreed that there was a need for municipalities to prioritise skills development as well as the recruitment of accountants and other skilled personnel to ensure efficiency. It is apparent that at some municipalities, lack of service delivery and the mismanagement of resources are the result of poor or unavailable skills.
The local government indaba on the state of local government, which was held a day after the Khayelitsha meeting, resolved to develop a turnaround strategy for local government, which will be ready in the next few months. The strategy is aimed at explaining in detail how government plans to change the state of local government in a manner that will ensure that local government functions efficiently and effectively in delivering services. This strategy is also designed to provide solutions on how the lack of service delivery in municipalities could be turned around for the benefit of our people.
We have asked the other two spheres of government to provide all the necessary support to municipalities in order to make sure that local government functions better. In addition, provincial and national departments as well as other state organs that owe money to municipalities have been encouraged to pay what is owed as soon as possible.
Perhaps, most importantly, we have made a call to all municipalities to focus on their mandate of serving our people with dedication, humility and honesty, because we believe that better-functioning municipalities will play a meaningful role in ensuring that our dream of a better life for all is achieved.
The Minister for Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs will monitor progress in this regard and report back on a quarterly basis. I thank you. [Applause.]
Hon Speaker, I thank the hon President for his comprehensive reply. The assessment of the level of discussion at that local government indaba - I'm mentioning it, President, because you've also included it in your reply - was designed to find the root causes of the current state of distress in many of the country's municipalities, to inform a national turnaround strategy.
One of the fundamental findings - I agree with you - was weak oversight supervision, which led to a backlog in service delivery, lack of support and intervention mechanisms across the three spheres of government. Since the meeting and the indaba over the two days in question, what has been done as a short-term solution?
You mentioned the fact that the Minister will carry out monitoring, and we want you, Mr President, to expand on what the Minister will be doing to monitor and assist those municipalities. As a long-term solution, what will be done to address this distress? Thank you.
Speaker, of course, the hon member will appreciate that the events I described here have just taken place. It's not as if we did this some months ago. The Minister is in the process of putting together a report on the work that was carried out at the indaba, which will then be presented at the right time.
Of course, the responsibility of local government lies with the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs. This means that in the long term, that department is going to be monitoring the situation and supervising activities in local government.
I don't think that we could create a new structure to look at the progress and functioning of local government. I think they will do things the normal way. The Minister certainly has the responsibility to ensure that local government functions. Thank you. [Applause.]
Speaker, I'm actually somewhat puzzled and also disappointed by the President's comment. I heard him say that the turnaround strategy will be available in a few months. Now, colleagues, I was at the indaba, and the agreement at the end of it was that the turnaround strategy would be available in a few weeks, and the reason for that was because this whole exercise was meant to have a sense of urgency.
The agreement there was that all municipalities in the country would develop their own local turnaround strategies in conformity with this national framework, and would do so by March 2010, to introduce the new municipal cycle in their budgeting.
If this national strategy is only available in a few months' time, it means that the municipalities will not be able to develop their strategies in accordance with it. This means that the whole sense of urgency in the framework is thrown out of kilter. So, in that regard, I'm rather disappointed.
I hoped the President would say that Cabinet approved it yesterday and it is now ready for implementation. Why is that not the case? Thank you.
Hon Speaker, I'm sure the hon member must have been preoccupied with something else when I was speaking. I didn't say that the turnaround strategy would be ready in a few months. He must have confused the different points that I was making when I mentioned "a few months".
All I said is that the Minister is working on it, with the municipalities. Certainly, he's going to be able to present a report as to what is happening.
What I said in relation to "a few months", in response to the hon member who previously asked a supplementary question, is that the indaba took place just recently, and not a few months ago. You must have just misunderstood the point, unfortunately for you. [Applause.]
Mr President, you referred to the acquisition of skills. I am also going to quote from your speech. You said in Khayelitsha:
We must find ways of attracting the best technical, managerial and financial minds to our municipalities, even the most remote, to effect a turnaround.
Mr President, we in the DA need an answer from you. Will you give guidance as to whether, "fit for purpose" will be the sole criterion in the appointment of officials and that cadre deployment by any party is actually wrong?
Speaker, correctly, the hon member says I made the statement; yes. In the presence of Ministers, including the Minister responsible for local government, and mayors and managers, I didn't suggest that I needed to take up that task as the President of the Republic and now take on the details regarding how these skills will be acquired. I think that is the task of the leaders I was talking to.
I can't say, look, this is how you are going to do it. I'm sure the hon member would be the first one to complain that I was actually doing the work of departments. I was giving them a guideline to follow and according to which they must operate. Thank you. [Applause.]
Mr President, given your commitment to fighting corruption and the knowledge that many service delivery complaints are related to corruption, I wish to ask if, during the indaba, you gave any assurances and/or special measures to assist public servants who strive to resist corruption.
The premise of my question, Mr President, is the issue relating to the acting director-general of the Department of Public Works, who has claimed to have been demoted by his political principal, the Minister, for resisting what he understood to be an unreasonable instruction to appoint companies in what in his view would have amounted to an unsolicited bid.
My premise is also the fact that procurement is a big problem that cuts across political lines. [Time expired.] [Applause.]
Speaker, at the meeting, we made the statement, and we have been making statements to the effect that we will fight corruption. This was not the first time I had made the statement; I've been making the statement all the time. In other words that empowers everybody - those under political leadership and those in leadership - to deal with it and to know that they have support, at least from the Presidency.
Unfortunately, I don't have the details of the area on which you premise your question so that I could deal with a matter that, at the moment, has not even reached my desk for me to deal with.
I think it would be unfair of you to think that I could comment on that matter. So, that matter will be commented on once the facts have been established.
Position regarding proposed revision of certain laws
8. Rev K R J Meshoe (ACDP) asked the President of the Republic:
(1) Whether, during a meeting with religious leaders held in Bishop's Court on 17 October 2009, he stated that some laws on the nation's statute books are not in line with God's laws and need to be revised; if not, what is the position in this regard; if so, which laws was he referring to;
(2) whether (a) he intends to propose for these laws to be repealed or amended and (b) public engagements will be held in this regard; if not, what is the position in this regard; if so, when will this process start? NO2628E
Speaker, during an address in Cape Town on 17 October 2009, I said that "some Christians sometimes feel that some of the country's laws do not accord with Christian principles to the extent that they should".
Having expressed this view, I wish to remind the House that South Africa is a secular state in which the Constitution and the rule of law are supreme. It is a country of many faiths, denominations and beliefs. The Bill of Rights stipulates that "everyone has a right to freedom of conscience, religion, thought, belief and opinion". It would therefore be incorrect to give reference in the development of legislation to any one religion or faith.
As publicly elected representatives of our people from diverse religions, faiths and beliefs, it is my contention that we should at all times strive to ensure that our laws neither offend the beliefs of any group nor impose the beliefs of others. Rather, we should ensure that our laws are consistent with the values that are common to all South Africans.
As hon members would know, there are channels available for people who believe that within plausible grounds, certain laws need to be repealed or amended. I would therefore encourage people to understand the context within which our laws have been formulated. Any person has the right to approach any of the relevant institutions should they feel that their constitutional rights have been infringed upon. Thank you. [Applause.]
Speaker, Mr President, please accept hon Meshoe's apology. I am speaking on his behalf.
At the meeting, you are reported to have warned South Africa about the fate of Sodom and Gomorrah and that laws on the nation's Statute Book that are not in line with God's laws needed to be revisited. If these statements were misconstrued, what is your opinion on this issue, and which laws concern you in this regard, particularly since in 1996, when the abortion on demand law was passed, 57% of your own party alone was opposed to the passing of the law? Were you among these people; and if so, does this still bother you? Thank you.
Speaker, firstly, I'm not sure about this, because the hon member was not in the meeting. She is certainly quoting me out of context. I talked about laws and principles. I was raising the matter with religious people who were there that, given the fact that they are religious people, are they keeping track of the laws that Parliament passes - whether they are in line with the beliefs and principles of God. It was a question to them.
They need to help those of us who are seated here if there are laws that they believe deviate from the principles. I did not say that these laws talk about Sodom and Gomorrah. I don't use such language, and I would not have used it in front of bishops and pastors. So it's a wrong quotation - a totally wrong quotation. I was raising the question with them.
This Parliament passes laws according to the majority. The laws you are referring to were canvassed, and indeed Members of Parliament voted. The majority decided that these laws should be laws. So, I don't think I can now go back and ask why people voted this way or that way. They were indeed discussed extensively. I was not saying we should discuss these laws again. I was merely addressing the leadership of religious people to find out whether they track the processes of making laws in terms of their own beliefs. That was the issue.
Thank you, hon President. Hon members, there are only four supplementary questions that will be allowed. The second supplementary question will be asked by Mr V B Ndlovu, followed by hon F C Bikani and hon P de Lille. Hon M Smuts, you are number five on the list, and hon Kganare, you are number six. So, only four questions are allowed.
Sihlalo, Mongameli wezwe, sekela Mongameni, Nedlu ehloniphekile, uma sikhuluma ngobuntu Mongameli, ngesikhathi ukhuluma nabaBishobhi nabefundisi, bakubona kufanele yini ukuthi thina njengePhalamende sivumele izingane ezineminyaka eyishumi nambili ukuthi zihushule izisu na? Bakubona kufanele yini njengabantu abangamakholwa ahlukahlukene ngokwezinkolo - lapha kubalwa nathi basemakhaya esihlaba izimbuzi sifake iziphandla - okuyinkolo yethu leyo - ukuthi izingane zethu zingabiki konina nakoyise uma zifuna ukuyohushula izisu na? Ngabe umhlonishwa uMongameli yena wathini uma ekubona njengobaba wesizwe nobaba waseNingizimu Afrika - ukuthi sizokwazi yini ukuthi sibuyise ubuntu bethu njengabantu baseNingizimu Afrika? Ngiyabonga.
UMONGAMELI WERIPHABHULIKHI YASENINGIZIMU AFRIKA: Somlomo, lungu elihloniphekile Gatsheni. Hhayi, uwubuzile umbuzo wakho Gatsheni impela wawunonisa. Kodwa okubalulekile ukuthi ngenkathi sihlangene nabaholi bezenkolo asilukhulumanga lolo daba. Aluzange nje luze luphathwe. Ngaleyondlela asikho isidingo sokuthi ngiwuphendule umbuzo wakho ngoba aluzange impela lubikwe lolo daba. Kodwa ngiwuzwile wona impela umbuzo ukuthi ukhuluphele. Unjengenkomo ekhuluphele kodwa othi uma uyihlabile kuthiwe ayidliwa. Ngiyabonga. [Uhleko.] (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)
[Mr V B NDLOVU: Chairperson, President of the country, hon Deputy President and this august House, if we are speaking of ubuntu hon President, when you were speaking with the bishops and the ministers of religion, did they feel that it is correct for us as Parliament to make laws that allow children as young as 12 years to terminate a pregnancy? Did they feel that it is appropriate that as people of different religions - this includes us from the rural areas who are traditionalists who slaughter a goat for a traditional bracelet - which is our religion of course - that our children should not consult their mothers and fathers when they need to terminate a pregnancy? What did you say to them hon President, as the father of the nation and the father to this country South Africa, that will enable us to revive our ubuntu as the people of South Africa? Thank you.
Mr Speaker and hon member Gatsheni. Well, you have asked your question and you have fattened it. But what is important is that when we were meeting with the religious leaders we did not talk about that issue. We did not mention it. Therefore, there is no need for me to respond to your question, because that issue was really never mentioned. But I realise that the question is fat. It is like a fat cow that when you slaughter it, it is said not to be edible. [Laughter.]]
Speaker, President, with regard to the presidential hotline which is meant to improve service delivery, what monitoring and evaluation mechanisms are put in place to ensure that public liaison officers keep up to the expectations of the public in the context of the Batho Pele principles?
Order, hon members! Your question is not quite related, hon member. [Laughter.] So, the President does not have to answer you.
Speaker, hon President, are you implying or stating that when we make laws we need to consider religion so that it does not offend some people? And are you still of the view that the ANC is going to rule until Jesus comes? [Laughter.]
Speaker, no, I don't necessarily mean that before we make laws as Parliament we should ask the leadership of religion to come and make their own comments. I think the procedures are very clear. Laws are made public, and every citizen, whether from religion or from any other aspect, is free to come and make comments on the laws. So, this is there. We can't do anything else. If they don't come, they don't come.
I think the point that was being made was that, as religious leaders, that's one of the tasks they have to undertake. This is to ensure that we don't make laws here and then find out that they never participated in the public scrutiny of the laws when they were passed and then have them complaining. The point was: Where were they at the point when these processes took place? That was the point. We don't have to say that we give them a special dispensation.
On the second question, I made this point some time ago, and I've been making it several times. I know that some people protested, particularly from the opposition at that time, that I am using the big name wrongly. But equally, religious leaders were very happy because they appreciated that the ANC knows Jesus and God and even knows that the Day of Judgment is coming. [Applause.] So, they were very happy and very much against the people who were critical, etc.
Of course I was making the point after I made an analysis. I said that ANC policies are superior. There is no party at the moment that can compete with them. It is clear that we will then rule until Jesus comes. That was the point I was making. [Applause.] [Laughter.]
Hon President, we welcome the fact that you have stated clearly that the law of the land has to be in line with only one fundamental law, and that law is the Constitution. We also welcome the fact that you have indicated by implication that one cannot use religious doctrine as a source for interpreting the Constitution.
But sir, having heard from you today a very clear statement of your position, may I point to the difficulty that arises when someone like Rev K R J Meshoe believes that he has heard one thing at a meeting and you tell us that in fact that's not what you said. This is something similar to what happened with the hon Smith. He believes he heard something and you say that's not what you said. I would like to put it to you, sir, that it must be very difficult for a warm-hearted President not to tell every audience what they would like to hear. [Laughter.] But the hon President cannot be a kind of Father Christmas to every formation in the nation. Therefore, I would like to ask him whether in future he can perhaps give a clear ... [Interjections.] [Time expired.]
Well, firstly, the first lady who spoke was not in the meeting. It was not Rev Meshoe who spoke. I'm not even sure whether Rev Meshoe gave her the background to ask the question. But Rev Meshoe was not alone. There were other people there. I would not have said that kind of thing. I have just clarified the issue. So, this is not an issue.
Clearly you were sitting here as well. The first person did not hear me, and I was very keen to answer the question. I mean the enthusiasm that makes people miss the point is not my problem. So, you can't question me on that. Absolutely not! Thank you, Speaker. [Applause.]
Details pertaining to proposed amendment of section 49 of Criminal Procedure Act
9. Mr J H van der Merwe (IFP) asked the President of the Republic:
(1) Whether he has been informed that the police have the requisite training to make split second decisions when he informed 1 000 police station commanders that section 49 of the Criminal Procedure Act, Act 51 of 1977, will be amended to give police leniency to shoot; if so, what are the relevant details;
(2) whether this amendment would be extended to ordinary citizens; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details?