Hon Speaker, the department, as you would know, has introduced a new passport which has new security measures to try and deal with some of the security problems around the passport. As you know, the major problem was not the passport itself but that it was issued to the wrong people.
We have also introduced another measure whereby the people who capture the data for passports have to log in with their thumbs because they were previously using passwords and they were exchanging the passwords to the point that you could never trace the person who produced the passport that was given to somebody who shouldn't have it. We have recently introduced a system whereby you log in with your password and with your thumb so that we can tell exactly who produced which passport and who captured what information and for what passport. This will assist us in determining if somebody has issued the passports to the wrong people.
However, the passport is at the end of the line. The real document that we should secure is a birth certificate, because it is the birth certificate that enables you to get an identity document, ID, and a passport. So, if you tighten up the passport and not the birth certificate, once they have the birth certificate people would be able to get the passport no matter how tight your protocols are. That is why we are looking at tightening up the birth certificate protocols.
According to the law, every child should have a birth certificate within 30 days after his or her birth, but nobody is sticking to that. So, we would like to enforce that law which will ensure that everybody has their birth certificate before they even apply for an ID. This is because it is easier to determine the citizenship of a baby by using an ID than it is to determine that of a 30-year-old.
There is a problem with this late registration of birth where you get a 60- year-old coming to register for the first time. You can't tell whether that 60-year-old is from South Africa or not. If you have three 60-year-olds, one from Mozambique, one from Lesotho and one from South Africa, how can you tell? We are trying to tighten the birth certificate protocols, and that is why we have a campaign that says: We are going to issue birth certificates to all South Africans who don't have them in the next two years, so that we can do away with the late registration of births, which is the one that is used as a loophole.
Of course, if we get an illegitimately issued passport, we confiscate it and it is destroyed and that person is removed from the population register if he or she is there and, of course, we also alert the law-enforcement agencies. Thank you. [Applause.]
Speaker, hon Minister, in the US state department's Country Reports on Terrorism 2008 concerns were raised that issues of poor administration and corruption regarding fraudulent passports, identity documents and work permits or the security challenges and sociocultural attitudes could negatively affect government's ability to pursue and intervene in counterterrorism initiatives. It seems from your response, hon Minister, that the department is taking these concerns seriously, but I would like to hear your take on it.
In the case of the 66 Home Affairs officials who were arrested in the 2008- 09 financial year and the further 18 suspended on allegations of fraud, what fraudulent activity were they accused of and/or arrested for, and have legal proceedings been instituted against them? Could you give us some of the relevant details concerning these matters? Thank you.
Hon Speaker, the hon member is talking about the report. Yes, indeed, when the President appointed me he quoted exactly that report to me to say these are the issues that we have to deal with and indeed we are taking that report seriously. We are trying to ensure that with time that report changes.
In terms of the officials who were arrested - she says there are 66 - I can't memorise them. She should have alerted me, then I would have been able to give her a breakdown of what has happened to each one of them. So, if the hon member would like to ask another question, I will have an answer to that question. But, yes, procedures have been followed - those that needed to be arrested have been arrested - but I can't give you a breakdown. Thank you.
Hon Speaker, the mic was pressed, unfortunately, by hon Dudley as she had to move across and then we had to give her space. I am sorry.
Thank you very much. Kindly press your own mic and not your neighbour's mic. [Laughter.]
Speaker, hon Minister, the turnaround strategy for the department cost almost a billion rand over the past three years. One of the consequences of that strategy was that South Africans now have to apply for visas to enter the United Kingdom and with regard to obtaining identity documents or passports, the department is referred to as Pick n Pay or Shoprite. For the right amount of money, you can buy any document.
With regard to implementing tighter protocols regarding the issuing of passports, does the Minister have a timeframe as to when the new security measures will meet international standards, and when South Africans won't have to apply for visas to the UK anymore?
Speaker, the passport does meet international standards as we speak now. The measures that I have spoken about, the biometric logon, is in place as we speak. As for the UK visa, the hon member would understand that it was the UK that decided on the visa, it wasn't us. So, it's not likely that we can determine when that will change. What I can say to the hon member is that, if the Department of Home Affairs was referred to as Shoprite and Pick n Pay, that's not the case. We are really trying to tighten up protocols. I am not saying we are perfect, but we are no longer Shoprite or Pick n Pay. We are now the Department of Home Affairs - Undaba Zabantu. [Applause.]
Of course we have to remain vigilant and keep on introducing measures. As for the UK visa, we should be honest with ourselves. There were objective and subjective reasons why the UK introduced the visa. Until we are satisfied that we've addressed all the objective reasons, it would not make sense for us to go back to the UK and try to renegotiate. We should know that we are standing on firm ground by the time we go to them. Thank you. [Applause.]
Hon Speaker, Minister, we have just come back from an oversight committee visit to areas of the ports of entry, around Beitbridge and Maseru and other areas in Ficksburg. At those ports of entry the officials have been complaining a lot about how criminals seem to have better technology than us. Apparently, by the time technology is put in place, the thieves and criminals are already far advanced. So, I want to find out from the Minister if there are any faster ways of trying to curb corruption by using technology, because in other areas like Beitbridge they actually complained that they do not even have the machinery to help them to do that.
Secondly, one of the officials during our ports of entry visit admitted that the problem is no longer with falsified documents - the passports - he said that the problem is that indeed there is corruption and that people have got genuine indicated identity documents. I just wanted to find out from the Minister if she knows about that. Thank you, sir. [Time expired.]
Hon Speaker, hon member, that's precisely what I was saying. The problem is not that the passports are forged. The problem is that somebody who does not deserve to have the passport is given the passport and that is where I started and that's why I said our base documents should be secured.
We are starting to campaign for South Africans who don't have IDs. We are going to schools to give the children identity documents as part of the campaign, because we don't want, when 2011 rolls around, all of you to put us into a pressure cooker about the IDs because of wanting votes. We must, as hon members, participate in that campaign now because Home Affairs will not be put in a pressure cooker when elections come and that's also where the loophole comes in, because when you see somebody in front of you saying: I am a South African and I don't have an identity document, Home Affairs is not giving me an identity document, everybody will be running around and we will be getting all sorts of people into our population register who shouldn't be there.
Hon member, this is an early warning: Start to campaign now for the IDs, so that Home Affairs won't be in a pressure cooker in the coming election. Thank you. [Applause.]
Speaker, thank you, hon Minister, for the comprehensive answer. Is there any visible progress in this regard? If yes, where and when?
Speaker, member, yes, I am sure the hon member can look and see if she has an ID. If she has, then that's visible progress. [Laughter.]
The fact is that now you can get your passport much quicker than before. You can even get an SMS telling you that your ID is now being printed, your ID has now arrived at the office and now you can fetch your ID. All that is visible progress. I didn't quite understand the question. I hope I've answered it correctly. The fact that you can't go to Shoprite and Pick n Pay to get an ID is visible progress. [Applause.]
Particulars regarding applications for presidential pardon
133. Mr J H van der Merwe (IFP) asked the Minister of Justice and Constitutional Development:
(1) Whether applications for pardon were submitted by certain persons (details furnished); if so, (a) when were the applications received and (b) what progress has been made;
(2) whether he will make a statement on the matter? NO1733E
Speaker, I would like to respond by informing the hon member that the applications for pardon of the persons identified in this question were submitted and received by the Department of Justice and Constitutional Development on 30 May 2008. These applications for pardon form part of the 2 114 applications for special dispensation for offenders allegedly convicted of offences in pursuit of a political objective.
All these applications, including those in question, were processed and they are currently in the Office of the President. As the hon member may be aware, the President was interdicted from processing these applications for pardon by the victim support groups and the Khulumani Centre for the Study of Violence and Reconciliation, as well as others in March 2009.
This matter was first heard at the Gauteng North High Court and is now going to be heard at the Constitutional Court on 10 November 2009. At present the President cannot make a decision on this issue until the Constitutional Court has ruled on the matter.
Yes, I will make the following statement: It should be noted that the decision to pardon or not to pardon is, in terms of section 84(2)(j) of the Constitution, a decision of the President. The former President of the Republic, Mr Thabo Mbeki, in a Joint Sitting in Parliament on 21 November 2007, announced a special dispensation pardoning certain individuals who had been convicted of crimes before 16 June 1999 in furtherance of their political objectives. He announced a window of opportunity for affected individuals to apply for a presidential pardon from 15 January 2008 to April 2008. Those are the people who were convicted for offences they believe were similar to those considered by the Truth and Reconciliation Commission.
Speaker, I would like to thank the Minister for a very comprehensive and good answer. In Rapport, dated 3 August 2009, it was reported that these two have been in prison for 17 years and were not guilty. What I want to bring to your attention is that it is alleged that, 10 years ago, the ANC promised to assist these people and never did - this is in the newspaper. These two applicants claim that they applied for amnesty in terms of section 84(2)(j) eight years ago. Now, the question is: Were those applications that were submitted eight years ago received by your department? Because it will not surprise me if they were, in fact, received and not attended to, because hundreds of applications of this nature - even a few thousand maybe - are being ignored by your department. I'd like you to answer - with due respect - if you can make an investigation into your department to try and trace those two. And if so, what are you going to do, Mr Minister, about this backlog where people submit, in terms of the Constitution, applications ... [Time expired.]
Speaker, the hon member should be aware of this matter, since he was part of the reference group that was appointed by the former President. These two specific applications were tabled before the Truth and Reconciliation Commission and, eventually, before the committee of the reference group.
As I've indicated, the matter is now before the Constitutional Court; therefore, it won't be appropriate for me to specifically respond to it. However, I can assure you that these two applications were received by the department, as I've indicated, and when the President was about to respond to them, the matter was taken to court. I therefore appeal to you to wait for the decision of the Constitutional Court on 10 November 2009 and thereafter the matter will proceed.
I have on my list the following speakers. Kindly move to your nearest mic, hon Mpontshane; hon Swart; and hon Smuts.
Speaker, unfortunately ...
Are you Mpontshane today?
Mpontshane is written on my seat. I'm sorry you have confused me with him.
There is a striking resemblance! [Laughter.]
He has not requested to ask a question.
Thank you, Speaker. I'm rising in response to you, hon Minister. I would like to draw your attention to the decision given on 30 September 2009 about Mr Chonco's application of pardon - which I'm sure you are aware of - and the scathing comments made by the former Chief Justice, Pius Langa, which state that despite the undertakings made by the then President and the then Minister to expedite responses to pardon applications - this is now pardon applications in that particular case - the respondents have waited in vain. This is said to be unacceptable, and he added that the Constitution requires that all constitutional obligations - wherever they lie - must be performed diligently and without delay.
Now, hon Minister, would you agree with those comments made by the learned judge, as it was his last judgment? If so, what steps will you take to ensure that such delays do not happen again? Thank you.
The Constitutional Court is the highest court in the land and the court of last resort. There's nothing more I can add except that we have to implement what the Constitutional Court decides. On these particular matters the President, even then Presidents Mbeki, Motlanthe and, currently, Zuma were on the verge of finalising this matter when it was taken to court. So, our hands are tied until 10 November 2009.
Speaker, may I ask the hon Minister; and if I could, I would also ask the hon Koos; but I can't, so to the Minister: Does he consider that the litigation by the IFP applicants for pardon, which has just culminated in the Constitutional Court judgment advising the IFP that it has been suing the wrong person, has prejudiced the prospect for pardon of other prisoners?
I have received correspondence from an ANC member who was given a pardon application reference number by the Department of Justice and Constitutional Development, and who argues that he is suffering because of the litigation brought by the IFP members who "do not meet the requirement". In his view, by contrast, he feels that he meets all conditions and was commanded by his leaders to commit the crimes for which he is imprisoned.
Sir, this letter was written in a state of despair and I would like to furnish the Minister with a copy. I'm asking this question, because, clearly, this is a deeply felt sentiment on the part of this prisoner in Kroonstad. I would like to ask the Minister what the prisoner avers. Does he consider that the litigation in the Constitutional Court has made life difficult for other pardon applicants?
Speaker, I was present at the Constitutional Court when the former Chief Justice Langa delivered that judgment and the hon Koos was an instructing attorney. I don't know how he managed that, but I must say that the Constitutional Court decided in favour of the Minister of Justice because they had sued the wrong party. We are not going to wait for them to sue us again, but rather to consider their application as the department and try to find the best way to address it.
Before the Minister rises, may I remind the hon members to please press their own buttons and not their neighbour's? And please don't send me lists of names. Just press the button in front of you.
Investigation into allegations regarding manipulation of crime statistics
146. Mrs L S Chikunga (ANC) asked the Minister of Police:
(1) Whether he is investigating allegations regarding the manipulation of crime statistics; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details;
(2) what plans does he have to address the manipulation of crime statistics? NO1856E
Hon Deputy Speaker, the answer to the hon member's question is yes. There are at least four cases that have been investigated by the Independent Complaints Directorate, ICD. Some of the cases are in the process of being finalised and, where necessary, action will be taken against the relevant officials. It is not possible to reveal all the relevant details whilst the cases are still under investigation.
However, we can say that two cases have either been finalised or are close to finalisation. With regard to Mountain Rise Police Station, the ICD has completed its investigation, and the matter has been handed over to the provincial commissioner. The provincial head of detective services has thus far finalised the investigation into 147 dockets, most of which were not registered on the crime administration system. However, there are still another 253 dockets which are still being investigated before a final decision can be taken on disciplinary action.
The SA Police Service in the Western Cape have also finalised their investigation into the Lansdowne Police Station. After a thorough investigation of this station, the station commissioner was fired and a detective branch commander resigned before being fired. When specific allegations regarding the manipulation of crime statistics surfaced, the national commissioner referred the matter to the relevant provincial commissioner or through the Minister to the ICD for investigation.
A unit attached to crime intelligence head office is entrusted with perusing daily crime returns and media reports to check whether the cases had been correctly registered on the crime administration system. If errors are discovered, these are forwarded to the provincial commissioners for ratification. Members of this unit also visited police stations to check samples of dockets and the occurrence and incidents book entries against the registration of the crime administration system, CAS.
The results of these checks are communicated to the provincial commissioners for information and the necessary steps, if such are deemed necessary. Members at the provincial offices, during the previous financial year, have also been trained to perform a similar task in their respective provinces to enhance the correctness of crime registration throughout the country and to keep the provincial management components updated on the situation at station level.
In addition, ongoing training interventions at different levels of policing are aimed at enhancing crime information management capacity down to station level, as well as awareness of the vital role of correct and complete information in combating crime. The Ministry of Police is currently engaged in a process with Statistics SA to make use of their services in undertaking a thorough review of crime statistics management systems within the police. I thank you. [Applause.]
Hon Deputy Speaker, I would like to thank the hon Minister for his comprehensive and honest answer. Hon Minister, in August this year City Press reported that a Johannesburg Central Police Station police officer was seen throwing dockets into a dustbin. Could this incident be related to the manipulation of crime statistics? If yes, how? If no, what is the relevant information with regard to that incident? I thank you.
Hon Deputy Speaker, following the City Press article, the national commissioner instructed the provincial commissioner to investigate this matter. The investigation was completed by mid- September. The investigation found that a police constable from the station had destroyed papers whilst on patrol in Fox Street. This constable had torn up the papers and deposited them into the street dustbin. The constable alleged that he had been cleaning out his patrol van whilst on patrol. However, the papers that were destroyed were scrap papers, and one old docket cover sheet. No actual dockets were destroyed.
The investigators contacted the complainant whose name and details were on the docket cover sheet that was destroyed with the scrap paper. It was confirmed that the actual docket related to case 2843/06/2009 was still in the detective services and was still being investigated. The constable has been reprimanded for throwing these scrap papers away in public and not shredding them, as required in terms of management of information security services procedures. An instruction has been sent out to all stations that no papers, even if they are scrap papers, should be thrown away, and that such documents should be disposed of in accordance with these procedures. The SAPS have contacted City Press and asked them to please retract what had been printed. It is unclear whether the newspaper printed this retraction. I thank you. [Applause.]
Madam Deputy Speaker, with all due respect to the Minister, considering that the Independent Complaints Directorate, ICD, directed the investigation into the criminal manipulation of crime statistics at the Mountain Rise Police Station in KwaZulu-Natal that shows that the station commander had indeed manipulated the crime statistics, thus raising that station fraudulently to the number 1 station in that province, and considering that the whistle-blower was suspended without pay by that station commissioner, could the Minister explain to this House how it is that the said station commissioner is still in his position and not suspended, pending the outcome of what I was told was the second investigation by the SAPS, who patently disbelieve ICD investigation outcomes?
Deputy Speaker, we will urge the hon member to wait for the process, because during that period the whistle-blower that she is referring to had referred the matter to the courts of law. Because of that, we have had to take into cognisance what has happened in that process. There is no way that we can continue as if nothing has happened. The investigation that I am talking about and the dockets that are left deal with that. I thank you. [Applause.]
Deputy Speaker, on a point of order: May I just inform the Minister that the court case has long been resolved.
Hon member, I didn't give you permission to speak. I thank you. I am looking at the screen for people who pressed their buttons.
Hon Deputy Speaker, this is a follow-up question to the Minister of Justice and Constitutional Development. I don't know why it came at a later stage, but with your permission, may I continue?
No, we are now dealing with the Minister of Police. Can we pass that, hon Ndabandaba? I am sure you will get your time when the questions are directed to the Minister of Justice and Constitutional Development.
Deputy Speaker, hon Minister, it was reported that Johan Burger of the Institute for Security Studies has charged that the alleged cooking of crime statistics by police stations in three provinces is the consequence of fear instilled in police managers by former National Police Commissioner Jackie Selebi. We believe that this fear caused some police station commanders to demand reduced crime figures from their subordinates, who, to impress them, decided not to record several reported incidents, including domestic violence, assault, fraud and even rape in the police case administration system. We believe that this was wrong, undermined good service delivery and betrayed the trust that citizens had in the police.
We want to know what government is going to do to remove this fear of recording all reported crimes and to assure police officers that if they blow the whistle on their corrupt colleagues, they will not be harassed, victimised or suspended by their superiors. I thank you.
Deputy Speaker, hon Meshoe, the manipulation of statistics is wrong. Anybody who is involved in that will face the might of the law. It is as simple as that. That is why, whether there are targets or not, they are there to be performed honestly and diligently and not with manipulation, as raised. I wouldn't talk about what happened in the past. Even now, there are performance indicators according to which the police have to perform. However, that does not suggest that people should manipulate statistics. We want statistics to be explained as they are, so that we develop the necessary measures to deal with them as they are.
What has happened so far is that we have seen the investigating officers, the detectives, together with the Independent Complaints Directorate, ICD, dealing with matters of this nature. And they will continue to do so, so that at the end of any investigation, if there is a reason for any action to be taken, it should be taken. I thank you.
Ngiyabonga Sekela Somlomo, bengicela ukubuza kuNgqongqoshe ukuthi kulaba amacala abo aphenywayo ngokulahleka kwamadokodo nokuthi-ke bashintshe izinombolo ngabe abanye babo bahleli emakhaya yini? Bayahola yini noma bayawenza umsebenzi khona belahla amadokodo na? (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)
[Mr V B NDLOVU: Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I just want to know from the Minister whether those police officers who are being investigated with regard to the disappearance of dockets and the changing of docket numbers have been suspended? Are they receiving their salaries whilst on suspension or are they still working even though they steal dockets?]
Deputy Speaker, hon member, what has happened over the period is that, with the investigation and the gravity of the matter at hand, each case has been taken individually. There are those who are still at work, investigating, to finalise the process. There are those who have been suspended, depending on the matter at hand and on the perpetrators. There are perpetrators and those who have assisted in perpetrating these wrongdoings. I thank you.
That was the last question on this. We are now moving to ... [Interjections.]
Hon Deputy Speaker, unfortunately my machine is not functioning properly. I have been pressing a hundred times, but you seemed not to be getting the message. They said they will attend to it, but I don't know when. There is a question for the hon Minister of Police.
But there are four questions already. We have had four questions for the Minister and we won't be able to take any more now.
All right.
I thank you very much.
Statement concerning accountability of NCACC regarding conventional arms trade
168. Mr D J Maynier (DA) asked the Minister of Justice and Constitutional Development:
Whether he will make a statement concerning the accountability of the National Conventional Arms Control Committee (NCACC) regarding the conventional arms trade with reference to the document entitled Arming Dictators All Over the World: National Conventional Arms Control Committee in Crisis, dated 2 August 2009? NO1881E
Deputy Speaker, I'm really surprised by this question from Mr Maynier, because he knows full well that I held a press conference at the Union Buildings on 6 August on the document he released on 2 August, where I indicated comprehensively government's response to the spurious allegations that were made on that particular document which was widely reported in the media. I indicated there and I am repeating it now that the business of the National Conventional Arms Control Committee, NCACC, is done in accordance with the law and the Constitution. We are accountable to Cabinet, Parliament and also to the United Nations.
The following day, on 7 August, I was with Tim Modise on the After 8 Debate, where I addressed this issue with the general public. Mr Maynier also had the opportunity of fielding questions and, caller after caller, he was condemned for what he had said. So, I don't know what statement he wants me to make right now.
I also came before Parliament and the Portfolio Committee on Defence and Military Veterans, where the hon member was also present. We spent almost two and half hours in that meeting. So, I don't know what the basis of this question is, more than what I have indicated already.
Deputy Speaker, at the time of the release of this report, the Minister accused me of telling lies about dodgy arms deals. But rather than refute the allegations, the Minister then called a press conference where he confirmed the allegations. The Minister conceded in his media statement that the National Conventional Arms Control Committee, NCACC, had turned down an application for the authorisation of the sale of aviator G- suits to Iran.
The Minister at that time, together with his colleagues in the National Conventional Arms Control Committee, stepped up to the plate and did the right thing. But that was not the real test. The Minister must now be aware that the company, Parachute Industries of Southern Africa, that applied for a permit to export thousands of aviator G-suits to Iran does not in fact produce aviator G-suits. The Minister must now be aware that the company which owns Parachute Industries of Southern Africa - that is the Zodiac group - which is a company based in France, does in fact produce aviator G- suits. [Time expired.]
Deputy Speaker, I think this gentleman needs to be examined. [Laughter.] He repeats this lie time and time again. I don't really understand what he is up to. I responded that there is nothing wrong we have done in terms of the law. We are not accountable to Mr Maynier and his DA. We are accountable to this Parliament, Cabinet and the United Nations. There is nothing we have done thus far that is in violation of any United Nations security resolutions on arms embargo. At the time he is referring to ... [Interjections.]
Deputy Speaker, on a point of order: I would just like to ask if the Minister would care to explain what he means by "the member needs to be examined".
Order! That is really not a point of order. Please continue, Minister.
I am saying, in conclusion, that there is nothing this government has done that is in violation of our Constitution, the law or the United Nations security resolutions on arms embargo. All transactions we have done with Iran, Libya and all other countries were in accordance with the United Nations security resolutions.
Just to respond to you directly, when the United Nations placed embargoes on Iran, we never had any transactions with that country. So, I don't understand why he keeps on harping on this issue. There is an English saying that says, "never flog a dead horse". [Applause.]
Hon Deputy Speaker, as you were calling on me now, I was still being consulted for the answer to the question I had to ask the hon Minister of Police. I was briefing the lady on the matter because they wanted to make a follow-up on the question. So, my machine is not on. As I told you, it does not function well. So, it keeps on indicating that it is on even when my hand is not up.
But your name is reflecting here. I'm not sure which machine you are referring to.
It is the previous one that I called the technicians to come and have a look at. They said there was nothing they could do. So, it's not my problem. It is the problem of the machinery.
So, I take it that you don't have a question for the Minister.
Madam Deputy Speaker, Minister, I think the most important thing we need to arrive at is how you could assist the member to understand how the system operates. This is because he seems not to understand how one, between the executive and Parliament, continues to monitor and ensure that the things he raises are more relevant and are raised in a proper manner within the channels of Parliament.
Deputy Speaker, the hon member of the DA should know that the National Conventional Arms Control Committee, NCACC, operates in accordance with the Constitution and the law that was passed by this Parliament in 2002. We have many committees in there. We have a scrutiny committee that prepares documentation that consists of relevant government departments like Trade and Industry, International Relations and Co-operation, Defence and State Security. It report to the NCACC, which I am chairing. From time to time we come to Parliament to report, like we did when we were called upon to do so. We report to Cabinet, and we also make an annual report to the United Nations organisation.
None of these structures have ever, even on one day, indicated to us that there was something wrong with the work of the NCACC. So, maybe the portfolio committee needs to do the hon member a favour by providing him with a copy of the Constitution, the Act, the relevant clauses of the United Nations and all the reports that have been submitted by this committee. We are also going to, later this month, report in terms of the law that says we must make quarterly reports. We are going to do so. We never said we were not going to make any of these reports available. I have also taken a decision that the reports that were given previously should be made public. There is nothing controversial about any of the matters that we are dealing with. But, in instances where there are commercial agreements and confidential agreements between parties involved, we will not reveal this information. This is all in accordance with the law that this Parliament has passed.
Deputy Speaker, Minister, perhaps you should consider whether you are accountable to your own former leader. Former President Nelson Mandela announced that human rights will be the light that guides our foreign affairs when he announced that we made a clear break with our foreign policy practices of the past.
To give effect to the principle that human rights should be the foundation of our foreign policy, we passed a law to regulate the sale of conventional arms. The preamble to that law says that our country is a responsible member of the international community and will not trade in conventional arms with states engaged in repression, aggression and terrorism. Yet, now it emerges that we are dealing with some of the most repressive regimes in the world.
The Minister confirmed in his media statement of 6 August that there were permits awaiting authorisation for the sale of thousands of sniper rifles to Syria and millions of rounds of ammunition to Zimbabwe. Will the Minister give this House the assurance that the National Conventional Arms Control Committee, NCACC, will do the right thing and refuse the permits for the sale of sniper rifles to Syria and ammunition to Zimbabwe? [Applause.]
Deputy Speaker, well, the ANC, long before the DA thought human rights were the be-all and end-all in South Africa, has always been pursuing human rights. That is why we campaigned for apartheid to be declared a crime against humanity and a threat to world peace when your predecessors, the DA, were in the apartheid Parliament. [Interjections.]
So, you are not the ones to tell us who to trade with. We are guided by our own conscience. As the people who pursue human rights in South Africa, our Constitution and the law, we cannot be dictated to by the DA on who to trade arms with. We are going to take decisions on a case by case basis. If it is appropriate to sell arms to Syria, we shall do so. These are commercial agreements between private sector companies in the main.
For your information, we have not taken any decisions to sell any arms to Zimbabwe since July of this year. This is not because the DA says so, but it is because we monitor a situation on a case by case basis. So, to answer your question directly, we are not going to be dictated to by the DA on what to do. We are going to be dictated to by the policies of this government and Parliament. [Applause.]
Deputy Speaker, hon Minister, can you tell us whether South Africa has any intentions of trading arms with Venezuelan dictator Hugo Chavez, who says his country is working with Iran to find uranium. If so, what arms are to be traded, and for what purposes? Thank you.
Well, Venezuela is one of our most important trading partners in Latin America. We shall continue to do business with them. For that matter, I will give a response in this regard. We have agreed and approved arms to Venezuela as the National Conventional Arms Control Committee, NCACC. There is nothing wrong with that. It is going to increase trade between our two countries. [Applause.]
Defence Department's performance with regard to Public Service Commission report on noncompliance with regulation compelling senior managers to declare interests
132. Mr L Ramatlakane (Cope) asked the Minister of Defence and Military Veterans:
(1) Whether she has reviewed her department's performance with regard to the Public Service Commission report on noncompliance with Chapter 3 of the Public Service Regulation which compels senior managers (SMSs) to declare all interests annually; if not, why not; if so, (a) how many did not declare their interests, (b) what are the names of noncompliant officials or SMSs, (c) what is each one's rank, (d) what action has been taken in each case and (e) what was the outcome in each case;
(2) whether a lack of action indicates complacency by the executive authority; if not, what is the position in this regard; if so, what are the relevant details;
(3) whether a failure to act against noncompliance constitutes misconduct; if not, what is the position in this regard; if so, what are the relevant details? NO1630E
Deputy Speaker, the hon Ramatlakane from the newly founded entity called Cope asks me whether I have ... [Interjections.] Chair, will you protect me? [Laughter.]
Hon members, would you kindly allow us to hear the response of the Minister to the question.
... whether I have reviewed my department's performance with regard to the Public Service Commission's report on noncompliance with Chapter 3 of the Public Service Regulation which compels senior managers under Senior Management Service, SMS, to declare all interests annually; if not, how many did not declare, etc.
Firstly, my response to the first part of the question is that we have reviewed the report that was given to the Public Service Commission which was handed in by the former Minister, Minister Nqakula. I am happy to announce that out of 268 officials, 99% of them have complied. When checking through our records we found that three brigadiers-general had not responded on time. We have since followed up with letters reminding them of noncompliance and they are now responding to that matter. They have assured us that they had responded to the register. Perhaps we did not file the reports in accordance with their responses. They are, however, dealing with the matter.
Secondly, in response to part (b) of section (1) of the question which asks for the names of noncompliant senior managers, I would not, at this moment, say that they would be noncompliant senior managers, because they have telephonically committed themselves to doing something about it. They have actually indicated that they did respond. So, we are checking our own records to see where we might have lost their forms.
Thirdly, part (c) of section (1) of the question asks about the ranks of each of the senior managers who did not declare their interests and, by way of responding, I stated that they are brigadiers-general.
Fourthly, part (d) of section (1) asks about actions that have been taken with regard to the noncompliant senior managers. My response is that we have reminded them and they are responding to the matter.
Fifthly, part (e) of section (1) of the question enquires about the outcome of each case and my response is that there is no outcome. We expect that very soon they should be responding to our reminder.
Lastly, section (2) seeks to establish whether or not lack of action indicates complacency, and if not what the position is in this regard. My answer is in the negative; it does not, and there is no position. Thank you.
Deputy Speaker, for the record and for the Minister to know, let me state that this is no entity, this is Cope. Arising from the response by the Minister, I would think that the Minister is fairly aware of the Act, the Public Service Act, as proclaimed in 1999, and the Public Service Regulation, specifically Chapter 3. I heard the Minister saying that there is no complacency, but if one looks at what the Act says in terms of the compliance, it says 30 April of every year.
In terms of the date on which the question was submitted to the Minister, does she believe that the date of 30 April was complied with? The Public Service Regulation stipulates what action the Minister has to take should there be failure with regard to that compliance, including the misconduct. Does the Minister believe that her action is in compliance with the Public Service Regulation and the Act?
Deputy Speaker, let me thank the hon Ramatlakane and add that it's a question of semantics whether or not what we were talking about is an entity or a party. I did indicate that the compliance issue was dealt with by former Minister Nqakula, my predecessor. All the officials except three seem to have been registered. Upon assumption of duty I reviewed the matter and found that these three had actually indicated telephonically that they had submitted their forms. We have asked them to resubmit. Failure to respond to this within the time allocated to them would then result in misconduct.
I want to indicate to the hon member over there that some of our members spend quite a lot of time out of the country on peacekeeping missions. So, the deadline that we give them differs from time to time depending on where they are. In fact, there is no dragging of feet here, we have been doing our work and I'm quite happy with the progress that we have made. I thought you would stand up and congratulate me on 99%. Thank you.
Deputy Speaker, Minister, in the light of disclosure at meetings of the Portfolio Committee on Defence and Military Veterans over the past two days that senior officials in the South African National Defence Force, SANDF, and Armscor procurement structures have business interests, will the Minister be investigating procurement processes and driving changes to legislation or rules that will forbid officials, specifically those involved in procurement, from having any business interests at all outside of their jobs?
Deputy Speaker, I don't know if this is still a follow-up question, but I want to assure the hon member that, just as the Portfolio Committee on Defence and Military Veterans is seized with the matter, I'm seized with the matter myself. Should the Portfolio Committee on Defence and Military Veterans require me to investigate the matter, I am open to that. Thank you.
Deputy Speaker, Minister, given that you have made so much progress within the department, do you think that these types of questions that are being raised regarding senior managers will have any effect on the work that they are doing and being able to continue improving the image of the department itself?
Deputy Speaker, hon Booi, I also wondered whether this was the best way of occupying our time out here. With new kids on the block, what can you expect? However, I'm open to entertain their views from time to time. But thank you for the compliment, I think we have done exceedingly well. Should the hon member out there want to contribute to us, we have a portfolio committee that meets fairly regularly. Please feel free to come and join us. Thank you.
Madam Deputy Speaker and hon Minister, it is commendable that the compliance rate is commendable. Hon Minister, you might consider this a separate question. In terms of Chapter 3(g) of the Public Service Regulation, the Public Service Commission is required to make a finding as to whether there is a real or potential conflict of interest between the registerable interest and employment in the case of one such interest having been disclosed. Has there been any action taken in that regard? Are you aware of any further steps that have been taken in relation to that conflict of interest?
Deputy Speaker, my response to hon Swart is in the negative. We submit the senior managers' assessments and declarations to the Public Service Commission. The Public Service Commission goes through them, scrutinises them and, from time to time, brings anything to the attention of the executive authority should they think that perhaps there might be a conflict of interest.
On the other hand, this is a guide to the executive authority to indicate that there might eventually, or in the course of the work of a particular senior manager, be a conflict of interest. I have not detected this. However, as hon Lorimer has indicated, the Portfolio Committee on Defence and Military Veterans has some concerns and I'm open to that. They will probably deal with this matter themselves, but they can also refer it to me and I will scrutinise the matter further. Thank you.
Findings of investigations into circumstances surrounding deaths of inmates in KwaZulu-Natal and Eastern Cape
166. Mr V G Smith (ANC) asked the Minister of Correctional Services:
(a) What were the findings of the investigations into the circumstances surrounding the deaths of inmates in KwaZulu-Natal and the Eastern Cape in the past eight months and (b) how many (i) officials have been implicated in these incidents and (ii) of these officials are still in the employ of her department?