House Chairperson, on the issue raised here, we, as government, have agreed that we will take these matters forward to ensure that we deal with these municipalities. The issue that has been raised is an issue around traditional leadership. The department has involved itself on these issues and, going forward, it is going to ensure that it complies with the Traditional Leadership and Governance Framework.
The only areas in which there are no structures of traditional leadership are Gauteng and the Western Cape, for obvious reasons. Gauteng has only two traditional leaders. Therefore, in terms of the law, if you have fewer than three traditional leaders, you are able to allow them to come directly to the national House. So then you cannot have a House in Gauteng. We don't have a House in the Western Cape either.
The issue of the transformation of these institutions is something we are looking forward to. Of about 845 traditional councils in this country, only 383 have been transformed nationwide.
On the issue of capacity-building and training, I can report that we have trained 222 traditional leaders. We are looking forward to continuing to train them all to ensure that they are capacitated going forward.
Provincial governments are providing grants. If I were to tabulate them here right now, it would take us the whole day. We will give a copy to the member, the hon Nonkonyana, in order to save time. Thank you very much.
Sihlalo, namalungu onke abekekileyo mandibulele kakhulu kuMphathiswa wesizwe ngempendulo, kodwa ukuze umnqwazi wam uqine ndinga ndingabeka ngolu hlobo Mphathiswa. Inkqubo yolawulo yobukhosi beli lizwe yadlakazeliswa kakhulu ngamakoloniyali ukufika kwawo apha e-Afrika, ingakumbi oorhulumente bengcinezelo, ethe ke i-ANC eyakhiwa ngamakhosi, yabona ukuba makuliwe naloo ngcinezelo ukuze nolawulo lwasebukhosini lufumane indawo kwinkululeko yabantu boMzantsi Afrika.
Nantsi ke imibuzo endicinga ukuba ungakhe uphinde unabe kuyo ukuze uqine umnqwazi. Okokuqala, njengokuba usitsho ukuba uMthetho sawupasisa apha ngowama-2003, kutheni ingathi le nguqu ngoku iyacotha, ihamba ngonyawo lonwabu nje? Okwesibini, ukuqeqeshwa kwabantwana begazi, iikumkani neenkosi kunye namaphakathi azo - ooceba ukutsho oko - ingaba iGunya-bantu leCandelo leMfundo noQeqesho lorhulumente wasekhaya liyayazi na inkqubo yolawulo lwakwantu okanye i-Traditional System of Governance ngabula makhumsha, ukuze kaloku bangafundiswa laa nkqubo bangayaziyo yaseNtshona? Okwesithathu nokokugqibela, phaya eMpuma Koloni siyabulela ukuba urhulumente we-ANC enze kakuhle kangaka kumaphondo aliqela eMzantsi Afrika ukuba la mabhunga obukhosi anikwe inkxaso ngonyaka. Apho bendithunywe khona yi-ANC akukho nesenti emdaka ethe yafunyanwa. Ingaba ke iMpuma Koloni yenze ntoni na yona yodwa?
MPHATHISWA WORHULUMENTE WOBAMBISWANO KUNYE NEMICIMBI YEZEMVELI: Nkosi Nonkonyana, mandibulele ndisithi nam ndivumelana nawe kwinto yokuba ukuhlonitsha kwamakhosi, isidima nesithozela sawo asikho ngendlela ekufuneka sibe yiyo. Yinto ke leyo esizama ukuba siyilungise ukwenzela ukuba amakhosi ahlonitshwe, abe nendawo yawo njengabantu bomthonyama. Enye ke into, kumba wokuba senza njani ukuya phambili kwicala lokuba baqeqeshwe aba bantu nokuba iGunya-bantu leCandelo leMfundo noQeqesho liyazazi na ezi zinto, mandithi ewe, kodwa ke akuthi ncakasana. Sifuna ukulincedisa ngoba iindlela zethu zokwenza izinto ngokwesintu zaye zacinezelwa zabulawa ngamakoloniyali. Ngolu hlobo sithi ke ngoku mazibuyele emakhaya ukwenzela ukuba sikwazi ukwenza izinto zethu zesintu ngendlela yethu size sihlonipheke nathi, kwaye ungazifihli xa usenza izinto ngendlela yesintu. Mandiqukumbele ke ngelithi, kwicala lokuba amaphondo ayakwazi ukuxhasa amakhosi nezindlu zawo kusini na, ewe ndivumelana nawe ukuba eMpuma Koloni ikho ingxaki, nento yokuba kwenzeke inguqu ihamba kade. Ngolo hlobo ke nenkxaso ayifumaneki kakuhle. Zizinto esizihlengahlengisayo ke ezo esiza kuzilungisa. Siza kuqinisekisa ukuba lo nyaka uzayo uyakuphela zonke izinto zihamba kakuhle kwicala lobukhosi. Ndiyabulela. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraphs follows.)
[Mr M NONKONYANA: Chairperson and all hon members, let me thank the hon Minister for the response, but in order for me to be satisfied, hon Minister, I would phrase my question this way. The programme of traditional governance in this country was annihilated through subjugation by the colonial government when they arrived in Africa, especially the apartheid regime. The ANC, which was founded by traditional leaders, decided to fight against that oppression so that traditional governance can also have a place in the freedom of South Africans.
Here are the questions on which you could elaborate in order to be convincing. Firstly, as you have mentioned, the Act was promulgated in 2003. Why is the transformation seemingly very slow, moving at a snail's pace? Secondly, with regard to the training of traditional leaders, kings, chiefs and their counsels - councillors in this case - does the local government Seta know the traditional system of governance, as the learned people would put it, so that people are not taught a Western programme that is not known to them? Finally, as the Eastern Cape we commend the ANC-led government for doing well in various provinces in South Africa in that the councils for traditional leaders receive funds that are annually appropriated for them. Where the ANC sent me, not even a cent was received. What has the Eastern Cape done to be singled out?
Nkosi Nonkonyana, let me thank you and agree with you that the respect, dignity and honour bestowed on our traditional leaders is not as it should be. That is something we are trying to rectify so that traditional leaders can be respected and have their place as indigenous people. With regard to the issue of how we are training these people, and does the Seta know about these things, let me say yes, but to a limited extent. We want to assist them because our traditional ways of doing things were looked down upon and destroyed by the colonial government. In this manner we are saying it is time to revive them so that we can do things our traditional way and be respected, and one does not have to hide one's traditional way of life.
Let me conclude by saying, on the issue of provinces being able to support traditional leaders and their houses, yes, I agree with you that in the Eastern Cape there is a problem and transformation is sluggish. In that manner support does not occur appropriately. These are the issues that we are dealing with that we will rectify. We will ensure that by the end of next year all issues pertaining to traditional leadership will be running accordingly. I thank you.]
Thank you, Chairperson. Hon Minister, in our democracy institutions and public representatives are held accountable. Therefore, I want to ask you, in the light of this transformation, what mechanisms will be in place for the government to ensure that these traditional institutions and leaders are held accountable for doing their duty in terms of the vast sums of money that they cost taxpayers.
House Chairperson, I would like to thank the hon Doman. I think he would agree that the Minister in the Presidency will ensure that anybody who accesses state resources does so on the basis of a performance arrangement. This system is in place at the nerve centre of government - the highest office of the land.
In that respect, it is expected that traditional leaders, because they are part of the government system in South Africa, must also adhere to that system and be monitored in the way they do things.
We will ensure that we develop the performance monitoring measures - even the indicators - with them, to ensure that resources are utilised in an efficient way, that we are effective in the way we do things, and that the government gets value for money from what we do. Thank you.
Chairperson, I don't know whether the Minister is aware that, recently, as a way of tightening their belts, traditional councils and houses were no longer able to serve refreshments for people who attended meetings. [Laughter.] I don't see anything in that to laugh about; I don't think there is anything funny about it.
If the Minister is aware of this, can he do something about it, because I think it is most degrading? It contradicts all the pronouncements that there is respect for traditional leadership. Furthermore, I'm surprised that my colleague, the hon Doman, is so ignorant that he doesn't even know that traditional leaders don't have a budget. So, we have nothing to account for to anyone.
Chairperson, I would like to inform the hon Mntwana that we were not aware of the issue of the lack of refreshments for traditional leaders.
I think the hon Mntwana will recall that we are trying to build capacity. We will be launching a department that will deal with traditional leadership so that we have the capacity to know what is happening in every province and to co-ordinate in every area. In that way, at any given time, there can be uniformity in relation to systems and the way things are done.
We would be happy to follow up on the issue of refreshments that Baba Shenge has raised, so that they are provided. In all municipalities people are offered refreshments when they gather. We don't think there should be a difference when it comes to traditional leaders. Thank you. [Applause.]
Particulars regarding rating system on one-page report card system for Cabinet Ministers
65. The Leader of the Opposition (DA) asked the Minister in the Presidency - Performance Monitoring and Evaluation and Administration:
(1) Whether, with reference to his speech on the Budget Vote for the Presidency (details furnished), (a) there will be a rating system on the one-page report card system for Cabinet Ministers and (b) how will Ministers' performance be measured on the report card; if not, what is the position in this regard; if so, what are the relevant details in each case;
(2) whether there will be any consequences if a Minister fails the rating system; if not, why not; if so, (a) what consequences and (b) how many times may a Minister fail this rating system before the consequences are enacted;
(3) whether the (a) results of these one-page report cards or (b) general outcomes or findings of each report-back session will be made public; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details in each case? NO1279E
Chairperson, firstly, the government approved its Medium- Term Strategic Framework, MTSF, for the period 2009 to 2014 in July 2009. This spells out its plan for the next five years. The new performance process is an extension of the MTSF, and we are in the process of developing measurable outcomes and outputs against which Ministers' departments need to deliver. Once Cabinet has approved these outcomes, they will be formally communicated to Ministers.
Secondly, the document improving government's performance was launched for the public on 4 September, and it describes our approach in more detail. This is not a rating system, as the question suggests, but a mechanism to direct our delivery and assess our performance on a regular basis. The six- month reports from Ministers to the President will have two objectives: to assess the progress made in six months towards, what in all cases are long- term targets, and identify blockages to delivery that need attention. This approach is a reflection of how seriously the Presidency takes the responsibility of planning and improving performance, and the consequences for not meeting delivery targets will be decided upon by the President.
Thirdly, government is committed to keeping the South African public and Parliament fully informed of its plans and progress in implementation. Regular reports, publications and addresses to Parliament will be used to report on performance. Thank you.
Chairperson, having listened carefully yesterday to the hon Thulani Nxesi's rather theatrical advice to opposition parties about how we should conduct ourselves in relation to performance management and evaluation, I'd like to do just that today. I want to ascertain whether the ANC really wants to or means it when it says: "Together we can do more."
Hon Minister, I'd like to state a couple of facts and ask you a question. There are a number of government departments that continually fail to submit reports or indicators to the public that are related to their performance, despite their being obligated to do so. Examples of this are the Department of Health that routinely fails to release the HIV-prevalence antenatal survey, as well as your own Ministry that has failed to release the report on the Presidency's development indicator's mid-term review. In light of the statement that you made yesterday in your Green Paper that "there would be enhanced citizen oversight, through an increased publication of outcomes data", I'd like to ask you: Will your Ministry require government departments to release reports and indicators related to their performances on a more regular basis; and, most importantly, whether the Department of Police will be required to release crime statistics on a more regular basis? If not, why not?
Chairperson, as we indicated in our White Paper, we will, on issues that relate to us, be able to release information or reports related to the work that we are going to do. Obviously, with regard to reports that are compiled by other departments or other institutions, it is within the right of those institutions to determine how those reports are released and at what point. Once there is an agreement as to when those reports are going to be available, if it needs our attention, we will then access those reports on behalf of whoever requires them. Thank you.
Thank you, Chairperson. Hon Minister, arising from your response, how will national Ministers of Health and Education be held accountable for failures at health care facilities and schools, given that they only set national standards which provincial MECs are then allocated budgets to implement? Thank you.
Chairperson, if we look at the Green Paper, it indicates that we have concurrent functions which involve national and provincial governments, and in those instances we suggested that the process of sector accountability may become important. We had a discussion with the various departments, especially the two departments on that aspect, and we got a commitment from them that it would be possible, through the delivery agreement, to identify the responsibility from the Ministry at a national level to the nine departments at provincial level, including institutions that could be ring-fenced for particular performance objectives. I thank you.
Sihlalo neNdlu yoWiso-mthetho ngokubanzi, Mphathiswa uyiphendule ngokuxolisayo imibuzo. Nto nje kukho into encinane, yokuba i- ANC iyalawula apha. Xa sithetha ngokusiwa kweenkonzo ebantwini, kwinkomfa yayo eyayisePolokwane ngo-2009, i-ANC yathabatha izigqibo zokuba ooceba abaseburhulumenteni mababe baphelile ngonyaka ka-2010, nto leyo ithetha ukuba kuza kufuneka ukuba kube kho uvalo-zikhewu kwa kulo nyaka. Ingaba kumaxa undawoni naloo malungiselelo? Enkosi. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraph follows.)
[Mr J M MATSHOBA: Chairperson and the House at large, the Minister has answered the questions satisfactorily, but there is this thing that the ANC rules here. When it comes to service delivery, in their Polokwane Conference in 2009 the ANC took a resolution that no councillor would be serving in any government department by 2010. That means there will be a need for by-elections this year. How far are you with those preparations? Thank you. ]
Chairperson, I didn't get the question clearly.
USIHLALO WENDLU (Mnu K O Bapela): Bawo, ndicela uwuphinde lo mbuzo.
Lo mbuzo ubusiya kuMphathiswa ...
USIHLALO WENDLU (Mnu K O Bapela): Yima kancinci usafaka into yokuva endlebeni, ukuze akwazi ukuqonda olu lwimi uluthethayo. Kulungile ungaqhubeka ke ngoku.
Lo mbuzo bendiwubuza ubusiya kuMphathiswa wooRhulumente baseKhaya kunye neMicimbi yezeMveli, kodwa ke naye angawuphendula. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraphs follows.)
[The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O Bapela): Sir, could you please repeat the question?
This question was directed to the Minister ...
Just wait a bit, he is still putting on his headphones so that he can understand the language you are using. It is okay, you may proceed now.
The question I was asking was directed to the Minister for Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, but he could also respond to it.]
Well, it's up to you, Minister, to respond if you want to, because he says the question was not directed at you, but that it was just a general question.
Chairperson, I said that I did not hear the question. What I heard now was an explanation that the question was not directed at me, so I don't know what I'm supposed to answer.
In that case, let's pass. Thank you, hon Minister. Are there any further supplementary questions?
Chairperson, I want to ask the hon Minister a question, because the answer that he gave was not a satisfactory one. In the Green Paper that he released, there's a chapter called "The principles of reporting". In fact, one of the paragraphs is called "Data architecture", and in there he says that there must not only be internal, but external examinations by the citizens of South Africa in respect of the information supplied. Now, referring to your answer, in respect of the police, how are the citizens of South Africa going to play their part in monitoring the success or otherwise of the Department of Police, if they do not get those statistics?
Chairperson, with regard to the specific question around the police, I've not heard the Department of Police saying that they are not going to release the statistics. Thank you.
The Minister has responded and we are now moving on to the next question. Whether satisfactorily answered or not, the fact remains that he has responded. Question 67 has been asked by the hon K R J Meshoe. Can I just finish the next question, or is that a point of order?
Well, Mr Chairman ...
Is that a point of order, Mr Ellis?
I think it is, Mr Chairman.
Don't think. Is that a point of order, hon Ellis? [Interjections.]
Position regarding the 500 000 job opportunities envisaged by December 2009
67. Rev K R J Meshoe (ACDP) asked the Minister in the Presidency - National Planning Commission:
Whether the 500 000 jobs envisaged by December 2009 include temporary job opportunities; if not, what is the position in this regard; if so, (a) how many permanent jobs have been created so far as compared to temporary job opportunities and (b) in which sectors?