Hon Speaker, my answer will be based on the original question that was submitted to me. The hon member should be aware that I have no control over who political parties meet with, whether it be Cosatu or other federations. Furthermore, I am not sure how their meeting undermines Cabinet, Nedlac, and parliamentary processes.
The Labour Relations Amendment Bill that the hon member referred to is currently before the Portfolio Committee on Labour in Parliament, and there is nothing about the law prohibiting any organisation from approaching Parliament with the intention of influencing the parliamentary process. There is nothing that warrants me, as the Minister of Labour, to take steps, as suggested by the hon member, as the Bill is before the portfolio committee. I thank you, hon Deputy Speaker. [Applause.]
Thank you, hon Minister. I have names here on my screen. Hon Van der ... [Interjections.]
Deputy Speaker, perhaps a follow-up question by the hon Motau first?
Hon Motau, do you have a supplementary question?
Yes, thank you, Deputy Speaker. In view of the Speaker's earlier ruling, I would like to associate the DA with the sentiments expressed in this House yesterday. The DA deeply regrets the tragic loss of life during the recent violence at the Lonmin platinum mine in Marikana near Rustenburg. The DA extends its heartfelt condolences to the next of kin of the eight mineworkers and two policemen who perished. These deaths should not have happened at this time in our democracy, when freedom of association and unionisation are guaranteed by the Constitution.
Minister, thank you very much for your response, and I will get straight to the point. The issue is very simply this: Cosatu has met with the ANC, and they have accepted and admitted that to the portfolio committee. Our concern is simply this: If we have processes that are in place, for instance in terms of Nedlac - and I will quote what Nedlac says about these things - and after these processes, Cosatu, which is in alliance with the ANC, can go and broker deals, it then, in our view, will mean that all the processes that we have - Nedlac, the public-participation processes - are in vain because Cosatu can prevail upon the ANC. The question, Minister, is this ... [Time expired.]
Deputy Speaker, it is clear that the hon member does not understand the public participation process, because Cosatu and the ANC are part and parcel of the communities of South Africa, and they have the right to participate in the legislative process. As the member has said, they have even made submissions to the portfolio committee, which is their right to do. Therefore, the portfolio committee has to do the right thing - to deliberate on the proposals, whether by the public or by Cosatu, and take a decision. So, I can't decide what kind of decision the portfolio committee should take.
Deputy Speaker and hon Minister, I believe that you and your government will support us in condemning the violent nature of many labour protests, protests often organised by your partner Cosatu and its member organisations. We also believe that government, when dealing with Cosatu, should require of Cosatu to discipline its members to stop inciting violence, to respect the laws of this country and to respect human life, even when their majority status as a labour union comes under threat.
The question is: Will you lead a campaign to call Cosatu and its affiliated member organisations to order and for the ANC to distance itself from Cosatu until the atrocities that mark their labour protest actions are rooted out? If not, why not?
Deputy Speaker, what the member raised has nothing to do with the question that is before this House. Therefore, if the member wants to raise a question, he must follow the processes of Parliament. Thank you. [Applause.]
Madam Deputy Speaker, the question is about the interaction between Cosatu and government. [Interjections.]
Hon Kganare, I give you the floor.
Deputy Speaker, I was a little bit worried that the process, which the portfolio committee is going through, is being undermined if this meeting has already reached a decision about what the outcome of the public consultation process should be. What I want to check, Minister, is whether you were part of this meeting, if this meeting did take place. I think you have already answered that the process will be followed as normal. I just wanted to check whether you were part of the meeting.
Deputy Speaker, I am deployed here by the ANC. If the ANC wants me to attend its political meetings, I will do so, because I am deployed by the ANC. Secondly, whether I was part of the meeting or not has nothing to do with the legislation. The worst part of this is that it is clear that the members are just speculating on what Cosatu and the ANC have agreed to. They must read the proposals that are before the committee, whether the issues that were discussed by Cosatu and the ANC were withdrawn or not. That will give them guidance, and they must not ask questions based on media reports because they have misled them. Thank you, Deputy Speaker. [Applause.]
Deputy Speaker, firstly, I think that we all condemn the killings that happened in Rustenburg. We must also emphasise that there is a rival union that is involved, which is not an affiliate of Cosatu. Therefore, the blame cannot be put squarely on any of the Cosatu affiliates. Also, the police are still investigating what happened at the Lonmin mine in Rustenburg. That is the first aspect. The second aspect is that the DA is the last political party to speak about violence during strikes.
Hon Deputy Speaker, I rise on a point of order: The first comment made by the hon member has absolutely nothing to do with the question before the House. [Interjections.] It has no relevance. Thank you.
Continue, hon Manamela.
Thank you very much, Deputy Speaker. The second aspect is that the DA has no right to speak about violence during strikes, because they are the ones who went to incite violence in front of Cosatu House. [Interjections.] The third and last point, Minister, is that there is ...
Madam Deputy Speaker, I rise on a point of order. I think the hon member is making some very unparliamentary remarks and casting aspersions on the party, and I would ask you to ask him to withdraw those remarks please. [Interjections.]
Continue, hon member.
Thank you very much, Deputy Speaker. The last point, hon Minister, is that we are aware that business has also held meetings with the ANC, and that all other sectors in society have held meetings with the ANC. We are wondering why the DA is not making a meal out this - if you are aware of such - and, of course, they have also, through Business Unity SA, Busa, asked to meet with the study group of the ANC. We are aware that they have met with all the study groups of all the other political parties who are involved in this legislation.
Are you aware of the meeting between Busa and all the other political parties? Also, don't you think that it is malicious for the DA to be questioning a meeting between itself and its alliance partners? [Applause.]
Deputy Speaker, I rise on a point of order. The hon Kalyan asked you to make a ruling on what the hon member said about misleading this House when he said that the DA incited violence at Cosatu House. It is quite hypocritical of him to say that when his Youth League is inciting violence in the Western Cape. [Interjections.]
Could we allow the Minister to answer, because if there is a ruling that I need to make, I will make it later. Could we allow the Minister to respond, please?
Deputy Speaker, could I address you on this point of order?
Could we just allow the Minister to deal with the question please?
Thank you, Deputy Speaker. As I have said, I have no authority to decide, when it comes to political parties, as to whom they meet with. Secondly, yes, I am aware that Busa has met with the ANC. In fact, some in the business community, I think, have even put these questions through members of the DA. But we always respond, as the Minister is deployed by the ANC. Thank you, Deputy Speaker. [Applause.]
Order! On the ruling that was requested, I will study the Hansard and make the ruling later. Could we move to the next question?
Deputy Speaker, could I also request that you also make a ruling not only in relation to what the hon Manamela said, but also on what the hon Van der Westhuizen said in accusing Cosatu of violence. So, all those statements should actually be looked into and a ruling be made on them. Thank you very much.
All right, I will add that to the ruling.
Particulars regarding implementation of Expanded Public Works Programme by municipalities
137. Mrs P C Ngwenya-Mabila (ANC) asked the Minister of Public Works:
(1) Whether he has found that municipalities have the capacity to implement the Expanded Public Works Programme (EPWP); if not, why not; if so, what plans have been put in place to assist municipalities to acquire capacity to implement the EPWP;
(2) whether he has found that municipalities are able to report on EPWP on time; if not, what plans have been put in place to assist them to report accurate figures on time; if so,
(3) whether he has found that the figures are accurate; if not, what is the position in this regard; if so, what are the relevant details? NO2377E
Deputy Speaker, in reality, municipalities do not generally have sufficient capacity to implement the Expanded Public Works Programme, EPWP. This is generally due to the lack of sufficient civil engineering skills in the country. So, the department has put in place a number of measures to assist the municipalities to implement the EPWP. The department has appointed deputy directors based in the national Department of Public Works to the regional offices to help provide technical support to the municipalities to implement this programme.
The department, also in partnership with the Local Government Sector Education and Training Authority, has trained over 1 200 officials in the different municipalities in labour-intensive methods of construction. The department has further developed the implementation guidelines and technical briefs to help the municipalities' technical officials to implement the programme. The EPWP reporting timelines are communicated to all stakeholders, and municipalities that participate in the programme are able to report on time with the assistance of the data capturers that have been deployed by the Department of Public Works in the regional offices and the data capturers that are in the EPWP data centre.
So, the figures reported are subject to monitoring validation tests to ensure that the quality of that data conforms to the minimum requirements. Technical support personnel in the provinces also assist in the collection of that particular data. So, data from all public bodies is captured in the EPWP reporting system as per the prescribed data fields and validation rules. So, validation rules are applied to the reported data during the collation, and projects that do not pass the validation rules due to poor data quality are excluded from the final quarterly reports. Thank you.
Deputy Speaker, I would like to thank the Minister for the response. What I wanted to check, hon Minister, is for how long the appointed deputy directors are going to provide technical support to municipalities to enable them to implement the EPWP. Thank you.
Deputy Speaker, these deputy directors have been appointed permanently, and in some of the instances, if there is an improvement and capacity improves in that particular municipality, we are able to deploy them somewhere else. Thank you.
Deputy Speaker and Minister, the EPWP offers people temporary job opportunities to gain some basic skills. The DA's 8% growth policy is geared towards creating permanent jobs. However, as a temporary measure, the EPWP can play a role as a stepping stone. The Department of Public Works report's strategic basis for the new EPWP grant, tabled before the committee, states that municipalities are not spending their budgets. With what you have just answered, Minister, we just want to find out whether the Minister will penalise those municipalities that are not going to utilise their budgets even after the measures that the Minister has just now referred to. Thank you.
Deputy Speaker, our approach is not a punitive approach - our approach is to take corrective measures. We have realised, after analysis, what the causes of nonimplementation are. That's why we are coming up with the support. So, before we can penalise, we must first help - that's what we are doing now. Thank you. [Applause.]
Deputy Speaker, it was the previous question on jobs, not on this one.
Alright, I hope others are different, because we are on this list.
Sekela Somlomo, angibonge kakhulu izimpendulo zikaMhlonishwa uNgqongqoshe. Ngicabanga ukuthi izimpendulo zakho zichaza izindlela ozozenza ukwenza uHlelo lwemiSebenzi eyeNzelwa uMphakathi [EPWP] lukwazi ukusebenza ezindaweni zomasipala. Uvalo enginalo uma siyobheka ukuthi omasipala basebenza kanjani ufike uthole ukuthi bagqoke ama-ovaloli amasha okukhombisa ukuthi umsebenzi komasipala awenziwa.
Uma sikhuluma ngokuhlonyiswa kwabasebenzi ngamakhono amasha [Capacity building] sibona kuzoba lukhuni kakhulu noma kungeke kwenzeka kahle ngezizathu zokuthi ngisho umnyango awusebenzi ngoba yonke indawo lapha uhamba khona kukhalwa ngoMnyango wezemiSebenzi yoMphakathi. Umbuzo okhona uthi: Yini le engenza ukuthi kungabizwa inhlabamkhosi yokuthi uhlakazwe lo mnyango, eminye yemisebenzi yawo inikezwe eminye iminyango? Ngiyabonga.
UNGQONGQOSHE WEZEMISEBENZI YOMPHAKATHI: Bab'uMatshana, okokuqala uma ubona ama-ovaloli amasha yingoba besizama ukuphendule izikhalazo zabasebenzi zokusebenze bengenazo izingubo zokugqoka. Kunezingubo ezithile okumele zigqokwe. (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)
[Mr K P SITHOLE: Deputy Speaker, I want to thank the hon Minister for his response. I think your replies detail your plans for the successful implementation of the Expanded Public Works Programme in municipalities. It worries me that when we undertake our oversight visits to municipalities we always find the workers wearing new overalls, which is a clear indication to me that no work gets done there.
I do not think it will be feasible to equip workers with new skills since the department itself is not getting any work done. Most people in the country are dissatisfied with the service rendered by the Department of Public Works. One question we should be asking ourselves is: Why can't we hold a referendum to dissolve this department and allocate its services to other departments? Thank you.
Mr Matshana, firstly, we gave our workers new overalls after we had received complaints from them about not having protective clothing in which to do their work. They need it to perform their duties; they have to be dressed appropriately.]
So, it's about the issue of the rights of the workers that they need to have the protective clothing.
Okwesibili, ukuhlakazwa komnyango akukho emandleni walo ophethe lo mnyango. Ungawubuza kwabanye abantu lo mbuzo. Esikwaziyo wukuthi kunezindawo la kungasebenzeki khona, siye sazibeka lapha ePhalamende nasemakomidini lezi zindawo ezinezinkinga kodwa ngalolu uHlelo lwemiSebenzi eyeNzelwa uMphakathi sekuyasebenzeka. Yize noma kukhona nje okuncane okumele sikulungise lapha nalaphaya kodwa kusebenzeka kahle. Baningi abantu abakwazile ukuhlomula kulolu hlelo ngemisetshenzana abathe bayithola. Angeke sithi ke sesilahlela konke ngaphandle okulungile nokungalungile. Asilungise nje lapho kungalungile khona, kuthi lokhu okulungile siqhubeke nako sikubambisise. Ngiyabonga.[Ihlombe.] (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)
[Secondly, as the Minister of the department, I do not have the capacity to dissolve it. You are directing your question to the wrong person. What we know is that there are some areas that we find very difficult to work in, and we have tabled that with Parliament and committees. The Expanded Public Works Programme has made it possible for us to do some work in such areas. Even though there are some things that we still need to rectify, at least now we are making some progress. Many people have benefited from the programme - it has provided employment opportunities for them. We cannot, therefore, throw away everything - the good and the bad. All we have to do is rectify our mistakes and continue with the good work that we are doing. Thank you. [Applause.]]
Deputy Speaker and Minister, the EPWP within municipalities that are controlled by the ANC has been used to try and get ANC members only appointed by demanding membership cards of the ANC before people are appointed. [Interjections.] No, my question is ... [Interjections.] No, that is a fact; I am not imagining things - that's a fact. My question is: Are you prepared to put an end to this so that all South Africans who are taxpayers have the same access to the EPWP to be appointed?
Deputy Speaker, through you to the hon Kganare, I suspect that that's what happened before you left the ANC, but the EPWP is not supposed to be partisan. If we had instances, let's not generalise. Give us the information so that we can intervene. Thank you. [Applause.]
Envisaged effects of signing of Three Cities Alliance agreement
143. Mr D M Gumede (ANC) asked the Minister of Tourism:
How will the official signing of the Three Cities Alliance agreement between Cape Town Tourism, Durban Tourism and Johannesburg Tourism (a) promote urban tourism and (b) market South Africa as a tourist destination? NO2383E
Deputy Speaker, the joint promotion of the three cities of Cape Town, Johannesburg and Durban under the Three Cities Alliance agreement pools the resources of these urban centres into a national partnership to promote the major urban tourism offerings of the country. In light of the previous questions to the Minister of Labour, this may create the unfortunate impression that the DA is in alliance with the ANC, but that is perfectly fine. In Tourism, we would like everybody to be in alliance. As research by the United Nations World Tourism Organisation has shown, up to 80% of international tourists prefer to experience a country through its cities.
Firstly, the Three Cities Alliance aims to meet this need and attract visitors to all three of the participating cities by combining efforts and resources, yet showcasing each city's uniqueness. In addition, these three cities represent some of the anchor products of destination-south- africa.co.za and should provide visitors with a fairly balanced view of what the country has to offer.
A second objective of the Three Cities Alliance would therefore be to prevent any tourist from returning home with a skewed perception of our urban offerings. At a more practical level, this will mean that the three cities will, inter alia, co-ordinate their events calendars. This is very important, especially when it gets to seasonality, and they offer short city-taster packages, but also integrate their marketing efforts.
Hon Deputy Speaker, firstly let me commend the three cities for working together; we say that together, we can do more and better. However, does the agreement contain clauses that will advance the broader transformation of the tourism industry in these cities; if so, how will this positively impact upon communities in these cities? I thank you.
Deputy Speaker, because this is an alliance and an agreement between the three cities, I would think that the cities would be in a much better position to answer this question. However, let me say that all of us agree in the industry - the private sector, government and all three spheres of government - on the transformation sector that we agreed on in our subsector.
Tourism was actually the first sector to agree on a charter, with the full support of all the different role-players in the sector. I have to say that, at first glance, people may be surprised that at a political level we have this alliance. I would like to give the assurance to Parliament that it is actually working very well. Across political differences between all the provinces and at national level, we have 100% commitment to all our decisions at Minmec and to our transformation charter. I welcome that unity of purpose.
Deputy Speaker, I would like to thank the hon Minister for his response. When the Portfolio Committee on Tourism visited the Northern Cape, which is one of the least visited provinces, the provincial department responsible for tourism lamented the fact that the bigger cities, and they referred in particular to Gauteng province, that receives most of the foreign travellers coming into the country, do not share the travellers with the least visited provinces.
In this case, I refer to the Northern Cape. The Northern Cape also boasts many tourist attractions. Does the Minister consider this a reasonable expectation by these provinces, that the bigger cities with international airports should also promote visits to tourist attractions located in the less visited provinces? If so, how do you think this can be achieved? I thank you.
Deputy Speaker, the hon member is quite correct with regard to what we are experiencing with the geographic spread. Therefore, we have the specific programme that focuses on the six least visited provinces - packages that we market through South African Tourism with the co-operation of the two operators to make sure that we also attract visitors to the six least visited provinces. The most visited provinces are the Western Cape, Gauteng and Mpumalanga.
There is also the responsibility on the provinces themselves to find that unique niche. The hon member referred to the Northern Cape. I must actually commend the Northern Cape because they realised that they cannot compete in terms of what we generally market South Africa on - the so-called safari destinations, wildlife landscapes - and what they did was to build themselves a reputation with regard to adventure tourism. They are doing very, very well and hosting some international events. So, there is a responsibility on the six least visited provinces to also find out what their best products are to market.
Two initiatives that I would like to mention briefly from the side of the government are the Tourism Enterprise Programme - a partnership between government and the private sector to assist with advice, but also funding, for small, medium and micro businesses, especially in the six least visited provinces; and then the incentives programme, a few hundred million rand at the Department of Trade and Industry, DTI, will now be transferred to tourism.
The hon member may have seen that yesterday we opened the new cable car aerial way in the province of North West, a cable car right in the bushveld. About 30% of the project was done with funding from government. That is one of the initiatives to make sure that we not only fund projects in the three big provinces in terms of tourism.
Deputy Speaker, I would like to thank the Minister for that reply. I think one point that we will agree on is that your department is not endowed with adequate resources to market South Africa effectively to the world. In my understanding, the Three Cities Alliance agreement is also subject to certain grant cuts which your department provides to them in order to try and promote their cities within this type of arrangement, or this memorandum of understanding.
When we were at the indaba in Durban this year, one thing I found very much of concern to me was the duplication and the lack of co-ordination between various spheres of government where money is going into this marketing effort and the fact that you end up with press advertisements in the Daily Dispatch, for instance, where I come from, that are actually competing with each other. My question to you is: Who will monitor the co-ordination of these three cities' marketing plan to ensure equitable and fair representation of the cities and what they have on offer? Is there a common business plan associated with this business initiative to ensure that it is properly implemented and monitored? I thank you.
Deputy Speaker, in terms of overlap and waste and potential waste, the hon member's observation is correct. It is a concern for us as well, and we are working on that. There are two initiatives that I would like to refer to. The one is at international level. We believe that we can cut down on the marketing efforts of municipalities and provinces at international level. We believe that it is primarily the responsibility and duty of national government to market the country internationally. We don't want to exclude the provinces and the cities, and we understand it is a concurrent function. We believe that we can use our money much more wisely, and we are in discussion with all the role-players to achieve that.
We obviously want them to be at Indaba, which is our local trade show. What we want the municipalities and provinces to do is not to market themselves or to rent these quite expensive spaces. Nobody wants to visit a municipality. People want to see products, and they want to go and visit products. They should enter into a contract with us to rather make that space available to product owners.
With regard to our co-operation with all the stakeholders, also the three cities, we are in constant discussion with them to ensure that even if there are cuts, we implement them wisely, treat everybody fairly and in an equal way. Ultimately, it is these players that must take responsibility themselves. Thank you.
Deputy Speaker and hon Minister, I think the memorandum of agreement that has been signed between these three cities will go a long way if implemented correctly. It will go a long way in attracting a substantial segment of the world's urban travellers.
However, I must warn that there are certain impediments that may frustrate the desired outcomes as envisaged within the memorandum of understanding, and I think one of them, if I may identify it, is the huge landing costs of airlines at these major airports. How do you intend to address these high landing costs? It is one thing to invest money in marketing the three cities, but on the other hand, we will be discouraging chartered planes, for example, from landing at these very airports.
I had heard from my colleague earlier on that Airports Company of South Africa, Acsa, intends to increase the cost by about 166%. I do not know if that is correct. If it is true, then how are you going to address it? Thank you.
Deputy Speaker, the issue of landing costs is an issue that is dealt with by Acsa, and that is under the leadership of the hon Minister of Transport. His predecessor appointed the panel to advise him. The increase that many stakeholders expressed concern about wasn't what the hon member mentioned when it came to the final decision. We are very worried about the issue of landing costs all over the world. At the moment, one of the detrimental factors for international tourism is all these new taxes that we see all over the world, especially from London and some European destinations. It is certainly having an impact.
In terms of the memorandum of understanding, we want to encourage these initiatives, that people take these initiatives themselves. A few weeks ago, we announced the first quarter's results. I would like to report back to the House that we had a fantastic first quarter of this year. In terms of international arrivals, we had 10,5% growth from all over the world - from our traditional and also the emerging markets. From China, we had 67% growth. From our own continent, in Angola we had 48% growth and from Nigeria 26% growth. It is because we have a plan that all of us agree on, all political parties, all the provinces, and the municipalities, but also between government and the private sector. [Applause.]
Intentions regarding proposals to Cabinet on privatisation of SOEs and extension of BBBEE to ordinary South Africans
183. Dr W G James (DA) asked the Minister of Trade and Industry:
Whether he intends to present proposals to Cabinet on (a) the privatisation of State-owned enterprises (SOEs) and (b) extending broad-based black economic empowerment (BBBEE) to ordinary South Africans who qualify to obtain ordinary subsidised shareholding of SOEs through a subsidised share offer; if not, what is the position in this regard; if so, what are the relevant details in each case?