The member who asked the question is not in the House, but he has indicated to us that Mr Swart will ask the supplementary questions, if there are any.
Thank you very much, Madam Deputy Speaker. I was worried, because I had made an arrangement with him earlier on that one of his questions needed further investigation by us, and, therefore, we would not be able to answer it today.
Is it this one?
No, this one is straightforward. I don't think it is this one. So I was worried that he may have been under the impression that it is this question. It is the second one, not this one.
There are 1 908 of these people who escaped from police custody during the 2005-06 financial year. Not all of them of course escaped from police cells; some of them escaped from police vehicles and the community service centres.
The escapees do not include those who escaped from Correctional Services. [Interjections.] There were none? [Interjections.] OK, I was going to say you should ask him about those from Correctional Services.
Of course, there are some police officers who connived with some of these escapees and in so doing facilitated their escape. Departmental disciplinary procedures were instituted against 38 of them, and 12 members were convicted through that departmental process. But 31 criminal prosecutions were preferred against others and two were convicted. Thank you very much.
Madam Deputy Speaker, may I, firstly, apologise, hon Minister, that the hon Meshoe is not in the House today.
The ACDP shares concerns regarding escapes from courts, prisons and holding cells, particularly where such escapes involve high-profile and dangerous prisoners. One escape is one too many; 1 908 appears to be unacceptable. When police or prison officials additionally assist in escapes, they put the lives of colleagues and the public at risk, and it becomes all the more reprehensible. We therefore welcome the fact, hon Minister, that where officials have been found to be implicated, they face the full force of the law.
In view of your response, hon Minister, are you satisfied that sufficient steps are being taken by the police to prevent persons escaping from holding cells or when being transported to courts, or appearing in courts? Will the SAPS continue to probe the possibility of prison officials being bribed to help Ananias Mathe escape, as suggested by the investigating team? Thank you very much.
Madam Deputy Speaker, my colleague is asking if we can share this question. I'll take a bit and he can take the rest. [Laughter.] No, it is not a joke, because two departments are involved. I will take the part that relates to the prisons.
I am agreeing to that.
Thank you very much. I hope the hon member did not say that we are putting in place "suspicious" steps. Did you say that? What did you say? [Interjections.] Sufficient? Oh, sorry. My ears are 65 years old this year. [Interjections.] At times I don't hear. You are much younger than some of the ancients who are sitting over there. [Laughter.]
Madam Deputy Speaker, there is nothing that is as overwhelmingly wrong and in fact highly criminal as law-enforcement agencies that facilitate escapes by these criminals. Because when they do that, they are actually allowing people like that to go out and kill their colleagues, which has happened in the past.
We are taking a very, very serious view of that matter. In fact, we are looking at measures to deal seriously with people who would allow for this. I may also mention the fact that we are putting together systems that will ensure that those who murder these officials are going to face the full might of the law, because we cannot allow a situation where our members are murdered. Therefore, if it is their own colleagues, in the first instance, who create conditions for them to be murdered, we want to do something which is going to be very drastic to deal with that situation. We are investigating every avenue that relates to escaped criminals, to find out if there is anyone in the Service who might be culpable for such an escape. Thank you.
The second part of the response?
Deputy Speaker, I do agree with the hon member: One escape is one escape too many. I agree with you fully, it is what I say to my officials all the time.
Our escape record at the moment is looking quite good, because it has gone completely down in number. Regarding the fact that an awaiting-trial detainee called Ananias escaped, who was not even supposed to be in that centre fortunately, we raised this with the portfolio committee last week concerning the report that had been put together by a team from the NIA, the SAPS and Correctional Services. That is the report which was then presented to the portfolio committee last week. It ended with me owning that report as if it had been written by me. I ended up being the "mampara of the week", when, in fact, the report was not my report. The report comes from that team. But, of course, when you are in these kinds of places you have to have a thick skin.
That team is working together. We have not disbanded that team. Regarding that, nine officials have been suspended and are being criminally charged as well, because we cannot allow a situation where people endanger the lives of society, and endanger the lives of their colleagues for a few pieces of silver. We cannot allow that.
Lastly, that report is a team report and they are still following up on the leads of what happened. They will come up with something much more criminal than what is in that report. Thank you very much.
Thank you, Minister. We hope you don't earn that title again this weekend.
Madam Deputy Speaker, hon Minister, are you in a position to share a little bit about the effort that they are making to curb this particular problem? Will you highlight to the House, as you are busy putting measures in place, what it is that you are really doing to assist to combat this particular problem of escapees from police cells and the different cars that they get into? Thank you.
Madam Deputy Speaker, as I said earlier on, we are beginning a process where we are converting to high technology on a number of things. I was going to speak to the chairperson of the portfolio committee, but I may as well publicly extend this invitation to her. There are various things that we are doing. On Thursday, 8 March, we are going to a facility in Midrand, Gauteng, that we have developed. That facility traces people and vehicles. We are therefore going to be using it to ensure that we cover the country in terms of crime prevention. Because it relates to crime prevention and even the issue of escapees, those people who commit crimes and try to use our highways and freeways to escape are going to face the law-enforcement agencies, because there is not going to be a way in which they are going to get out of the rings that we are going to create to deal with that situation.
At the right time, chairperson of the portfolio committee, we are going to invite members of the portfolio committee to go and see that facility, in order for you to have a broader understanding of some of the measures we are beginning to put in place to deal with crime in South Africa. Thank you.
Minister, kan ek maar asseblief Afrikaans praat? Dankie.
Mev die Speaker, in die geval van 'n polisiebeampte wat verdink word van hulpverlening aan 'n ontsnapte uit die selle of voertuie of wat die geval ook al is, uit bewaring, wat is die onmiddellike stappe teen so 'n verdagte, en kan u dit asseblief, indien moontlik, met 'n voorbeeld illustreer, wat u onmiddellik doen om op te tree as daar so 'n, ek wil s, verdagte vrot appel in die mandjie is? (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)
[Mr R J KING: Minister, may I please speak Afrikaans? Thank you.
Madam Speaker, in the case of a police officer being suspected of rendering assistance to an escapee from the cells or vehicles or whatever the case may be, from custody, what are the immediate steps to be taken against such a suspect, and could you please, if it is possible, illustrate, by using an example, what immediate steps you take if there is such a - as I would like to put it - suspected rotten apple in the barrel?]
Madam Deputy Speaker, if members of the public, including, of course, public representatives such as you come into possession of such information, we require that information, because, indeed, we want to get rid of those members who pretend to be law enforcers who, instead, act criminally. We want to deal with that element. And, therefore, immediately a person is seen to be committing any crime, please report it.
There are a number of areas in which reports can be given, including the general number that we have. I know that at times people are saying they cannot get through to that number. In fact, the facility that I am talking about will also address the issue of 10333. But there are others. There is the ICD which can receive those reports. But the easiest thing to do would be to report such a person to the nearest police station. And of course we have a law that allows for civilian arrests of people who commit crimes. One can even effect a civilian arrest. Thank you.
Mhlonishwa Phini likaSomlomo, bengicela ukubuza kumhlonishwa uNgqongqoshe ukuthi ubani othatha isinqumo sokuthi isigebengu esithile kufanele singene siboshwe imilenze nezinyawo enkantolo? Ngabe nguMnyango wakho noma uMnyango Wezokuhlunyeleliswa Kwezimilo, kumbe nguMnyango wezobulungiswa? Ubani othatha isinqumo esinjalo ngoba kubonakala sengathi kukhona okufanele bakhulekwe imilenze nezinyawo uma beya laphaya? Kukhona abafana nalabo kodwa bona abangakhulekwa imilenze nezinyawo. Othatha lesi sinqumo kanti ubani ngempela? (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.) [Mr V B NDLOVU: Hon Madam Deputy Speaker, I would like to ask the hon Minister who takes the decision to say that a particular prisoner should appear in court in handcuffs and leg irons? Is it taken by your department or it is the Department of Correctional Services, or maybe the Department of Justice? Who makes such a decision, because it looks like there are those who should be in chains when they go to court only to find that they are not? Who really takes this decision?]
It is up to the Minister, if he would like to respond to that question. We always ask members to try to stay as close as possible to the original question. But maybe, because it relates to escapees, it is up to the two Ministers - also because it is now a two-pronged question. I think we should now give you another slot of responding, the two of you, if you want to.
Madam Deputy Speaker, I will give the greater portion to my colleague. My own answer is: Asindim, baba. [It's not me, hon member.]
Asindim. [It's not me.]
Enkosi. [Thank you.]
Deputy Speaker, on a point of order: How is it possible that two Ministers respond to each question? Does that mean that the questioners here will all get two opportunities as well? [Interjections.]
Minister, are you done?
I am not.
OK, I will come back to you.
Madam Deputy Speaker, whenever there is an escape or we have risk-profiled a particular offender, it is important that that offender is handcuffed and is footcuffed as well when going to court, because we have to protect the officials. I have lost too many officials because of offenders who were not cuffed, and I am not going to take a chance on that at all. The lives of those officials are very important.
When we get to the courtroom - I am not talking about the police, I am talking about Correctional Services - in most cases we are able to take off the footcuffs. But we don't take the risk, particularly with high-risk criminals, taking off the handcuffs, because they have to be protected as well. So I did not take the decision, but I support that people who are dangerous must be cuffed, end of story. I am working in a security environment, not in any other environment. [Interjections.]
Mr Gibson, there has been an occasion where a member has been given more than one slot, when they felt they needed more answers to the question that they had raised. We allowed them to do that. But when a member actually says "my question is related to two departments" and the Ministers who have the information are here in the House, and this whole exercise is about information sharing, we cannot say, "No, only one Minister may answer." That is counterproductive. That is actually saying to us what we are trying to do here is not what we expect to get out of the exercise. So the purpose of the exercise is that, whatever information is available here will go to the hon members and to the nation, because the nation needs that information. Thank you. [Applause.] [Interjections.] We have more time. Do you want to put more questions to the Ministers?
Mhlonishwa Phini likaSomlomo, bengicela ukusho ukuthi umbuzo obuzwe yilungu lethu maqondana nokuthi ubani othatha isinqumo awuphenduliwe.
IPHINI LIKASOMLOMO: Yebo. Ilungu liye labuza maqondana neMinyango emithathu. Angithi kunjalo baba? Angithi ububuze umbuzo maqondana neMinyango emithathu? IMinyango emibili iziphendulele kodwa uMnyango Wezobulungiswa awuphendulanga. [Ubuwelewele.] ONgqongqoshe ababili bamphendulile. Ilungu lami elihloniphekile lithi lona lijabulile, angazi-ke wena baba ukuthi ungena ngaphi. [Uhleko.] (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)
[Mr A M MPONTSHANE: Hon Madam Deputy Speaker, may I indicate that the question asked by our member in connection with who takes the decision to chain prisoners has not been answered.
Yes. The hon member posed a question to three departments. Is that so hon member? You asked a question to three departments? Two departments have answered for themselves but the Department of Justice has not. [Interjections.] Two Ministers have answered him. My hon member says he is happy, and I do not know where you fit in, sir. [Laughter.]]
Madam Deputy Speaker, the third Minister is in the House, and in the spirit that you explained ... [Interjections.]
I think this slot belongs to the IFP - unless they are saying you should speak on their behalf, because I'm sure that they are able to say exactly what you are saying, Mr Gibson.
I thought that the hon Mpontshane had finished - I thought he'd finished.
You just have to polish your isiZulu, then you would know that he had not finished.
When he has finished then, perhaps, I could have a turn at addressing you, Madam, in the spirit of telling the nation what's going on.
Phini likaSomlomo, bese ngilindele ukuthi mhlawumbe umhlonishwa uNgqongqoshe wezobulungiswa uzothi nguyena ngoba laba ababili bathe akubona. Bengibabuze bobathathu.
IPHINI LIKASOMLOMO: Hlala phansi-ke baba. Ngeke ngize ngimcele uNgqongqoshe ngaphandle uma kunguye ofuna ukukhuluma ngalolu daba, ngoba mina ngithe ... (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)
[Mr V B NDLOVU: Madam Deputy Speaker, I was expecting that maybe the hon Minister of Justice would say she is the one who decides because the other two said it's not them. I asked all three of them.
Have a seat, sir. I will not ask the Minister, except if she wants to talk about this matter, because I said ...]
... the question that was raised and the questions that are raised as supplementary questions should be as close as possible to the initial question. I said to them it is up to them to answer if they felt like it, but they are not compelled under this exercise to do so, because the question is not a supplementary question at all, it's a new question. They have honoured you by responding to you. And I'm going to ask that the Minister for Justice and Constitutional Development do so, if she feels that she would like to respond to you. But if she does not feel like it, then we shall proceed. Justice? [Interjections.]
Mr Ellis, there's no Brigette. No matter how excited we get, we are hon members! She is hon Brigette Mabandla or hon Minister for Justice and Constitutional Development. Are we agreed on that, hon Ellis? Now, let's give the opportunity to the Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs.
Madam Deputy Speaker, you did indicate ... [Interjections.]
Hon Deputy Minister, please take your seat. You were speaking on behalf of the IFP. The IFP ... [Interjections.] I beg your pardon?
You assumed that I was ...
No, you said so. You said you were speaking because you thought you were putting across better what Mr Mpontshane had said to the House. Mr Ndlovu has done that very well and we are done with that matter. [Interjections.] On which point are you rising?
Madam, you wouldn't allow me to continue so that I can finish ...
On which point are you rising now?
I'm now rising on a point of asking whether the hon Minister for Justice and Constitutional Development won't reconsider the question, in the spirit of advising the nation about how many people have escaped from holding cells? You explained how important it is for as many Ministers who are in the House to address the nation. Now, why don't we give her an opportunity to reconsider her decision to say no?
I don't think the Minister has a problem in answering that question. Put the question down. You are asking how many people escaped? I do not think that even if you had that responsibility, Mr Gibson, you would at any point in time be able to give the statistics. Write down that question and let it go to the Minister for Justice and Constitutional Development. I now close this matter on the Minister for Justice and Constitutional Development. She is not answering any other questions! Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs, are we finally going to hear you?
South Africa's role in defusing the volatile situation in Somalia
9. Ms F Hajaig (ANC) asked the Minister of Foreign Affairs:
(1) What will South Africa, as chair of the peace, security and stability organ of the African Union, do to assist in defusing the volatile situation in Somalia;
(2) whether the AU will be able to gather all role-players around the negotiation table; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details;
(3) whether the intervention of the USA will be a positive factor in the resolution of this conflict, considering South Africa's position of multi-lateral intervention in any area of conflict; if not, what is the position in this regard; if so, what are the relevant details? N212E
Deputy Speaker, as I was saying before I was rudely interrupted ... [Laughter.] The answer to point number one is that, in our capacity as the non-permanent member of the Security Council for the next two years, and as the President of the United Nations Security Council for the month of March 2007 and our membership of the AU, South Africa will continue to support the efforts of the UN, the African Union and the Intergovernmental Authority on Development in bringing about peace in Somalia.
South Africa supports the national reconciliation process in Somalia and is committed to assisting Somalia to assist the Somalia Transitional Federal Government to ensure that the national reconciliation process is all- inclusive and incorporates all relevant role-players, including civil society, clan elders, elements of the Islamic Conference and the warlords.
The situation in Somalia is very volatile and violence is increasing. The United Nations Security Council has just passed a resolution sanctioning the dispatch of African Union forces to Somalia. We are now in the process, through the African Union, to try to get the 8 000 African troops to go to Somalia.
Regarding part two of the question, South Africa, through the AU, remains committed to ensuring the involvement of all the role-players in the peace process. We believe that all role-players who are committed to negotiations and who are prepared to seek a peaceful solution to the conflict in the state should be part of the process.
The interim Prime Minister of Somalia, Ali Ghedi, has recently agreed to hold talks with all the relevant parties in the peace process, including the leadership and members of the United Islamic Courts. This is also the position of the African Union and the Security Council.
With regard to part three of the question, America's current intervention in Somalia is, lastly, in contact with multilateral efforts. Currently, these efforts are being exercised through its membership of the United Nations Security Council, the role it plays in the international contact group on Somalia and through the funding of the AU mission in Somalia's peacekeeping force.
To this extent, the involvement is constructive. Furthermore, it is our understanding that the US is in support of the inclusive political dialogue, consistent with the earlier statements I have made.
Thank you, hon Deputy Minister, for your comprehensive reply. Will South Africa, in light of our various commitments elsewhere in Africa, be able to support Somalia to re-establish institutions of governance and train people to serve in various capacities in the post-conflict reconstruction of Somalia?
Further, if I may ask, how can South Africa assist in stopping more small arms and light weapons entering Africa, especially in conflict areas?
Firstly, let me say that we are committed to assisting Somalia in every way possible to establish institutions of government. We cannot do it on our own. We would have to do it in partnership with the AU, the United Nations and the European Union, because the tasks are tremendous. I think we will do everything possible to achieve that.
The issue of small arms proliferating in Africa has been a huge problem for us for some time. We are signatories to all the relevant conventions on this. We will continue to work with the United Nations and the African Union to try to stop the flow of small arms to African conflict areas.
Minister, thank you for your reply. The situation in Somalia is of course unacceptable to all of us, and it is clear that we in South Africa, like our fellow Africans all over the continent, would like to see a peaceful outcome. Surely, Minister, the costs of logistics of peacekeeping are far beyond anything the AU can afford. Surely, the AU troops as well as our troops are stressed financially.
My question is whether we are prepared to actively engage the United States to contribute financially to assist the African Union and South Africa, and if needs be, to cover the costs of these operations?
Chairperson, it is sometimes a problem when colleagues don't listen to what we say. I've just said that the United States, as part of the Security Council and indeed as part of the contact group on Somalia, have already committed financial assistance to the AU forces for Somalia, and we will continue to deal with the United States and the European Union, and, indeed, the United Nations, to strive to ensure that enough resources are being made available for the African force to be effective in Somalia.
Hon Deputy Minister, of course, the biggest challenge with regard to these peacekeeping efforts, as you have just indicated, is resources. It was mooted at some point that there is a move to raise the issue with the United Nations, regarding recognising AU peacekeeping missions as regional missions of the United Nations, and to recognise the AU as a regional entity of the UN, so that all these missions in that way became UN missions so that we do not have the necessity of asking all the time that the AU missions be converted. They can then automatically become UN missions by recognising AU peacekeeping missions as regional missions of the United Nations. I would like to know if there is any progress with regard to this proposal? Thank you.
There is nothing automatic about the process. The United Nations Security Council, which is charged with dealing with conflicts entrenched in international peace and security, discusses each issue on its merits.
There is now a growing acceptance that it would be better to utilise regional structures to deal with regional problems. In many of the African conflict situations, which are over 70% of the UN Security Council agenda, we do try to ensure that they become a UN initiative, and are then, by and large, supported by the presence of African troops in these conflict situations.
Let me quickly add that we do not want a situation to arise where the developed countries determine that this is no longer their problem and they just pass it on to the regional groups. We want to help them remain seized with us and, according to each conflict, determine what assistance the US will give to our African initiatives.
Attack on nurses at a youth centre in the Baviaanspoort Management Area
4. Bishop L J Tolo (ANC) asked the Minister of Correctional Services:
(1) What happened to the inmates who attacked and injured two nurses at a certain youth centre (name furnished) in the Baviaanspoort Management Area in Gauteng on 11 August 2005;
(2) whether any of these inmates were sentenced for this offence; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details?