Madam Speaker, the answer is yes, the community policing forums are the best vehicle to connect communities with the police, as an expression of the concept of community policing. Put at the centre of that relationship, the CPFs will be given the necessary authority to build and nurture that community-police relationship. We are, therefore, putting in place measures to make the CPFs autonomous bodies that will be responsible to the communities, to mediate between them and the police.
The CPFs will be established through a democratic process, including elections. The functions of the revamped CPFs will include building confidence between the communities and the police, helping to root the police among the people as trusted allies in the fight against crime, determining, together with the police, policing priorities in the given community and assessing police performance on the basis of those priorities.
The CPFs will be resourced by the government and members will receive training for better management and effective communication with all stakeholders. Thank you.
Thank you, Minister, for your comprehensive answer. Will you please indicate to this House what the likely impact is that the Minister expects as a result of these measures aimed at the strengthening of CPFs? Thank you.
There will, of course, be an improvement in terms of policing in all the areas where there will be these structures. Given the fact that we have always recognised that when you have better community-police relations, then crime in those areas does decrease. We are certain, therefore, that there will be very drastic reductions in crime in those areas.
We have already started a programme where some of the communities are already working with the police, and in those areas crime has indeed gone down. That is the impact that we will have. But more than that, we will have better co-ordination of all the resources that will be deployed in these given areas, and conditions will be created for engaging more people, on the basis of poverty alleviation, who will work side by side with the police as reservists. We believe, therefore, that when we do this, which, by the way, is an accepted practice in most democracies, we will indeed be impacting very positively on the fight against crime. Thank you.
Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Minister, CPFs are based in geographical communities, but we have also seen recently the roll-out of the railway police on certain routes. Do you see an opportunity to extend the type of role communities play in geographical police areas on those routes in overseeing the railway police, especially regular commuters that would perhaps be part of a mobile CPF or become reservists that travel regularly on that route? Thank you.
That also fits into the design that we have, because, in the end, we are going to have community police forums in all areas that are therefore going to work with the police, among other things, to identify people within those communities that can become part of the reservist system.
An arrangement can be made under the command and control of the CPFs for them to have a relationship with other areas where there will be CPFs, so that the reservists become part and parcel of railway policing. In other words, you will have people who, together with the police, will be at the railway stations and will be on the trains themselves.
We don't want to create many structures for this. The CPFs can do that kind of work. It is correct that that would also benefit from the revamped community police forums, because those are intended indeed to encourage better community-police relations. Thank you.
Agb Minister, die President beklemtoon in die staatsrede die noodsaaklikheid van vennootskappe in samewerking oor staat en gemeenskappe heen ten einde misdaad te beveg. Die President voorsien die uitbouing van die Gemeenskapspolisiringsforums tot gentegreerde gemeenskapsveiligheidsentrums.
Onmiddellik kom dit by 'n mens op, 'n wonderlike ideaal, mits u departement nie hierdeur probeer wegskram van die verantwoordelikheid vir die werwing, opleiding, finansile ondersteuning, uitbouing, bevordering en erkenning nie. Is u bereid om die volle verantwoordelikheid vorentoe te aanvaar dat Gemeenskapspolisiringsforums sal werk? (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)
[Mr R J King: Hon Minister, in his state of the nation address the President emphasised the need for partnerships to co-operate across state and community lines in order to fight crime. The President envisages the extension of community police forums into integrated community safety centres.
What immediately comes to mind is that it is a wonderful ideal, provided that your department does not in this manner try to avoid the responsibility of recruitment, training, financial support, extension, promotion and acknowledgement. Are you prepared to accept full responsibility in future for the success of community police forums?]
As you know, I can speak Afrikaans, but I wanted to be certain that the interpretation is correct upstairs. Of course, this is not an abdication of our responsibilities. We have made this abundantly clear from the outset. All that is happening is that we are inviting the communities to participate in providing national security everywhere in South Africa and, as I say, this is not a practice that is unique only to South Africa. It happens elsewhere in the world as well, but the law-enforcement agencies don't abdicate their responsibility; they will be leading from the front in respect to these matters.
It is better to work together with the people, particularly because the criminals that we are fighting live among the people, and, therefore, the people are the best repository for information - the very information we require in order for us to conduct investigations successfully. We are not abdicating our responsibility.
Madam Deputy Speaker, Minister, in my constituency all the smaller organisations got together and formed a community police forum where each home in the Havenside area is paying R150 per home and we have 24-hour police security. We bought bicycles and four-wheel scooters for them to use.
I am happy to hear that we can get some assistance from your department. Can you please kindly let me know who we can contact to get some sort of assistance? Thank you very much.
It is those experiences of our people that in fact have informed what we are trying to do. Over many years now there have been communities indeed that have collected some resources in order for them to ensure that there is some community activity that is designed to assist the law-enforcement agencies.
As I said in my speech the other day in this House, there are even some members, like you, who participate in those programmes. What we are saying is that we must create conditions, and those can only be made possible as a consequence of decisions that we must take here, because we must change the law in order for us to do all these things. It does not mean that when you have started something like that you can't approach, for instance, your local station commander. You go to that person, the commissioner there, and speak with him or her.
I am sure the police will be able to help, but I really appreciate the role that people, like some of these hon members in this House, are playing. Fortunately, you do understand that when we make the kind of call we have made, it is not because we ourselves want to walk away from our responsibility. Thank you very much for that.
Release of crime statistics and targets for crime reduction
20. Ms D Kohler-Barnard (DA) asked the Minister of Safety and Security:
(1) Whether he will release crime statistics to the public and the legislatures so that his department's performance can be properly assessed; if not, why not; if so, when;
(2) whether he will outline a set of targets for crime reduction, by category; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details;
(3) whether he will step down if he fails to achieve these targets; if not, why not;
(4) what is the government's position on transparency, with specific reference to his department's refusal to release up-to-date crime statistics? N225E
It is our department's policy to release crime statistics annually for all levels of policing before the end of September of the financial year, following the year of release. The last crime statistics, therefore, were released in September last year as part of the SA Police Service's annual report.
This department's performance is assessed against quarterly reports to the National Treasury. The targets set for crime reduction are already a common cause. To repeat, the police are expected to reduce serious and violent crimes by between 7% and 10% annually until 2014. Those serious and violent crimes include murder, attempted murder, rape, indecent assault, assault, serious assault and common assault, aggravated robbery and common robbery. While no target has been set for the other categories of crime, the reduction of crime is part of the mandate of SAPS to prevent and combat crime. To that extent, therefore, the police are determined to reduce the levels of all crime, as has been happening since 1995, when the SAPS was established.
There's a question about stepping down and I want to say that I've responded to that question in the past, hon member, and I'm not going to repeat myself. I'm inviting you, therefore, hon member, to go to Hansard and that's where you'll get the answer.
The hon member knows that we are transparent. We publish an annual report on the activities of the SAPS, including crime prevention and crime- combating activities. And statistics are part and parcel of that report. That is being transparent. There are many countries in the world that embraced democracy much earlier than we did but which do not publish statistics.
Minister, you told me in an answer to a parliamentary question last year that you would present your annual crime statistics to Parliament before releasing them to the press. You stated that you would, but you then chose not to. In fact, these figures are never even presented to the Portfolio Committee on Safety and Security to assist us in our oversight duties. You stated that you would bring them to Parliament first - you didn't. Will you reconsider, and, at the very least, bring them to the portfolio committee before your annual bun fight?
Madam Deputy Speaker, I hope that you are going to indicate to her that the first thing we do indeed is to submit those reports to Parliament. By the time we interact with the media, those reports have been submitted to Parliament. I don't know what you are referring to when you say we have not submitted them to Parliament before we released them to the media - because we did.
Mhlonishwa Phini likaSomlomo, bengicela ukubuza ukuthi, njengoba sikhuluma ngezibalo nje, mhlawumbe umqondosimo lo esasinawo wokumbandakanya yonke iMinyango ... [Ubuwelewele.] Uxolo kancane. Ake nithi ukwehlisa umsindo. [Uhleko.] Phini likaSomlomo, ngicela ungikhuzele la malungu ... (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)
[Mr V B NDLOVU: Hon Deputy Speaker, I would like to know whether, as we are talking about the statistics, maybe the attitude that we had to include all departments ... [Interjections] Excuse me. Could you please lower your voices. [Laughter.] Deputy Speaker, would you please call these members to order.]
The hon House Chair, will you please help us maintain order in your corner there.
Ngiyabonga, Phini likaSomlomo. Bengithi angibuze kumhlonishwa ukuthi isu ...
IPHINI LIKASOMLOMO: Khulumela kule nto yezwi khona sizokuzwa phela.
Ngiyabonga Phini likaSomlomo. Bengithi angibuze kumhlonishwa ukuthi isu lethu esake salisebenzisa lokumbandakanya yonke iMinyango ekulweni nale nto esikhuluma ngayo, ubugebengu, bekungeke kwakuhle yini silibuyise ukuze kungabi uMnyango wakho kuphela wamaphoyisa okufanele ubhekane nalesi simo kanti kukhona nezigebengu eziqhamuka kweminye iMinyango? (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)
[Mr V B NDLOVU: Thank you, Deputy Speaker. I wanted to ask the hon Minister whether the plan ...
Speak into the microphone so that we can hear you.
Thank you, Deputy Speaker. I wanted to ask the hon Minister whether the plan that we previously used of integrating all the departments in fighting crime could be brought back so that it does not only end up being the Department of Safety and Security that deals with this problem as there are criminals from other departments too.]
I don't know what he means by that.
Eqinisweni, yilo Mnyango obhekene nezigebengu. [In fact, it is this department that deals with criminals.]
But, as you'd appreciate, we do work in clusters and our cluster is a big one. All the people in that cluster are working on the basis of the integrated criminal justice system.
IPHINI LIKASOMLOMO: Sengihlulekie ukukusiza baba ngoba kade ngikucela ngithi khuluma ngendlela yokuthi ngikwazi ukukuzwa kodwa wena ube ukhulumela phansi. Nokho-ke ngiyethemba ukuthi ubaba useyitholile impendulo. (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)
[The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I have failed to assist you, hon member, because I have requested you several times to speak audibly so that I can hear you, but you continue to speak softly. Anyway, I just hope that you got your reply.]
Minister, I would like to put it to you that, in fact, you did not submit them to Parliament. We checked extensively on the day of your press conference. There was nothing available at all to anyone asking. So, I don't know where you released them or to whom, but it certainly was not to Parliament.
I don't know if we are going to have this kind of argument with the hon member. The fact of the matter is that we would never ever go to anyone else and release a report we know has to be submitted to Parliament first of all. We did that and whatever you did - I mean you have your own structures and I have mine. You have your own means of verifying things and I have my own. I'm saying and I am putting it to you that we submitted that report before we went public with it. [Interjections.]
Safekeeping and control of police dockets at police stations
30. Mr V B Ndlovu (IFP) asked the Minister of Safety and Security:
Whether any steps are being taken to improve the (a) controls over and (b) safekeeping of police dockets at police stations; if not, why not; if so, what steps? N236E
Madam Deputy Speaker, the answer to both questions is yes. The following are the steps we have taken: Firstly, there are lockable facilities that have been issued to the detective service component for the secure storage of dockets in order to prevent losses and unauthorised access to such dockets. Instructions to keep offices of investigating officers locked during their absence have been issued to prevent unauthorised access to dockets and/or theft thereof.
Dockets forwarded to and received from court are audited to prevent losses that may arise. Strong departmental action is taken against members who are found to have negligently lost dockets. All docket losses are monitored by the head office by means of a monthly return from the provinces. Thank you.
Phini likaSomlomo, mhlonishwa uNgqongqoshe, umqondosimo walo mbuzo ubuqonde ukubuza ukuthi uma selilahlekile idokodo, kwenzekani kumnikazi wedokodo? Uma lilahlekile idokodo kube kukhona ophakathi, oboshiwe, kwenzeka njani kuyena? Uma lidayisiwe, lowo olidayisile kwenziwa njani ngaye? Lo olithengile yena-ke wenziwa njani?
Le mibuzo ngiyibuza ngoba, ekugcineni, kuye kube sengathi yilaba abaphenyayo kuphela abanecala kanti mhlawumbe baningi abant u abathintekayo ekulahlekeni nasekwebiweni kwamadokodo. Kuye kwenzeke njani kulaba bantu abayimixhantela ekwenzeni lo mkhuba omubi kangaka? (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)
[Mr V B NDLOVU: Deputy Madam Speaker, hon Minister, the core of this question was to ask what happens when the docket is lost. What happens to the owner of the docket? When the docket is lost and there is an accused person who is languishing in jail, what happens to him? If the docket has been sold, what happens to the person who sold it? And what happens to the one who bought it?
I am asking these questions because, at the end of the day, it always looks like it is only the detectives who are guilty whereas in fact there are many other people who are involved in the disappearance of dockets. What happens to these other people who are involved in this bad practice?]
UMPHATHISWA WEZOKHUSELO NOKHUSELEKO: Xa kuphandwa, kuphandwa umntu lo belikuye idokethi. Uphandwa kunye nabanye abantu ekufumaniseka ukuba bayabandakanyeka kulo mkhuba mbi. Kuphandwa wonke umntu kuquka nabo othi wena bayalithenga idokethi, nabo bayaphandwa. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraph follows.)
[The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: When an investigation is conducted, it is into the official who handled the docket, together with everybody who has been found to have been involved. This includes those that you claim buy the docket.]
Minister, in this technological age, no copy is made of dockets as they are completed. Now, the single piece of paper that represents a victim's right to justice then becomes a second victim. Firstly, it might become a victim of shoddy filing, or shoddy police work, and never to be found again. Secondly, and more commonly, it becomes a secondary victim for the perpetrator. While it is unforgivable for a member of the SA Police Service to lose a docket, it is equally so that certain members are corrupt and will dispose of a docket in exchange for money. Have the members of the SAPS been trained to detect and report such corruption within their ranks, and if they have, why is it still happening?
It is true that it is still happening and, I must indicate, not to the same degree and level as was the case in the past. There are measures that are in place to deal with this matter. It is not only just a matter of people who lose dockets or what-have-you. That situation is very serious. It is criminal, in fact, for any person who is conducting an investigation to lose any aspect of that investigation, including whatever information is available as well as information in the dockets themselves.
This is a matter that we are addressing on an ongoing basis. Quite soon our systems are going to be such that it is not going to be possible for people to sell any dockets, because - I am sure many members are aware now - we are converting very rapidly to high technology in order to deal with all these matters. Thank you.
Deputy Speaker, Minister, will the department under your guidance give due consideration to the electronic backup of dockets?
Yes, we do, and we have even gone one step further. The other day, the members of the Portfolio Committee on Safety and Security were shown what the police as a management and performance tool defines. What we have been able to do with regard to that is that we are recalling a number of dockets that were closed as undetected, and we are reopening those dockets in order for us to restart investigations in a proper way. What we are doing is that, using that instrument, the dockets are now being electronically stored so that we can deal with matters, including this issue of where some of the dockets are lost. Thank you.
Mphathiswa obekekileyo, inyaniso yinyaniso, ngoba xa bekweqe ibanjwa elikhulu ejele, isebe lakho likwazile ukuba lilibambe elo banjwa. Asizi kukutyhafisa ke xa lisebenza isebe lakho. Apha size kwakha ilizwe, size nathi sakhane. Asisoze sizigxeke izinto ezintle xa zisenzeka. Asizi kuthi kuba siliqela eliphikisayo siphikise nokuba kugqitha impukane, sisithi isuka kubani ibimelwe kukuba iya kuzibani. Inyaniso mayihlale iyinyaniso. Lisasebenza kakuhle isebe lakho okwangoku. [Kwaqhwatywa.] (Translation of isiXhosa paragraph follows.)
[Mrs N M MDAKA: Hon Minister, the truth is the truth. Your department has been able to rearrest a dangerous prisoner who had escaped from prison. We are not going to discourage and discredit you when your department is doing a good job. Our purpose is to build a nation. We are not, because we are an opposition party, objecting to the good things just for the sake of opposing. The truth must always remain the truth. For now, your department is doing a sterling job. [Applause.]]
That is not a question, but a compliment. I don't know whether ...
Hayi nam ndifuna nje ukuthi ndiyabulela. Halala! [I also want to say thank you.]
Shortage of artisans in Correctional Services
3. Mr D V Bloem (ANC) asked the Minister of Correctional Services:
Whether he has been informed of the shortage of artisans in Correctional Services workshops nationally; if so, (a) what has his department done to attract and retain artisans and (b) what measures have been put in place to review the current remuneration packages of artisans? N205E
Hon Deputy Speaker, in reply to the question by the chairperson of the portfolio committee, the Department of Correctional Services does have a vacancy rate of 6,5% in the specialised field of artisans.
However, the artisan field in Correctional Services - we're talking about plumbers, fitters, motor mechanics and electricians here - is very broad, and the department is not experiencing shortages in all fields. Each vacant post is, therefore, dealt with on merit, in order to ensure the effective functioning of that specific trade.
The prepared reply goes as follows:
(a) The department has advertised 102 artisan posts since September 2006. Higher salaries have also been offered to artisans where a critical shortage exists. It's not an easy task to retain artisans, due to the high demand and very high salaries in the broad labour market, which government departments cannot compete with. However, the department has resorted to making counter-offers in an effort to retain their services.
b) The position of artisan, as with other scarce-skills occupational classes, has been revised and a new code of remuneration has been developed to cater for the specific needs of artisans. However, the impact of the high salaries and the different working conditions, which are also difficult within Correctional Services and in the labour market, is not only being felt with regard to artisans, and, therefore, the department is addressing all these scarce-skills occupational classes within the available budgetary allocations and the Department of Public Service and Administration mandates. Other initiatives, such as bonus incentives and payments for trade tests are also being considered under the department's recruitment and retention strategy.
Thank you.
Mevrou die Adjunkspeaker, baie dankie aan die Minister vir die inligting wat u vandag vir ons gegee het.
Ek dink hierdie storie moet baie dringend ondersoek word. Die Witskrif vir Korrektiewe Dienste l spesifiek klem op rehabilitasie, maar ons sit met 'n probleem. Ons het byvoorbeeld verlede maand Drakenstein besoek. Daar's ook 'n tekort. In St Albans is daar 'n werkswinkel wat toe staan. Ek dink ons moet ernstig aandag gee aan hierdie probleem om rehabilitasie 'n werklikheid te maak, anders gaan ons met 'n groter probleem sit van mense wat nie gerehabiliteer word nie. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)
[Mr D V Bloem: Madam Deputy Speaker, thank you very much to the Minister for the information you imparted here today.
I think this story should be investigated as a matter of urgency. The White Paper on Correctional Services specifically puts the emphasis on rehabilitation, but we are faced with a problem. For example, we visited Drakenstein last month. There is also a shortage. In St Albans there is a workshop that is not in use. I think we should give serious attention to this problem in order to make rehabilitation a reality, otherwise we will be faced with the much bigger problem of people not being rehabilitated.]
I do agree with you fully that this must be addressed quite soon, and you're quite correct as well that the emphasis of Correctional Services is on rehabilitation, and when these workshops are short of artisans it makes life very difficult. But, as you well know, there are other programmes as well in which offenders can participate.
Whilst we are busy dealing with that, one of the requirements I'm pushing to make within Correctional Services is that offenders must participate in at least four programmes before they are even given a chance to go to the Parole Board. It is one of those things that we'll be able to gauge them with. There is agriculture, there are the workshops, there are lots of other programmes that we have.
In Drakenstein we have a huge agricultural farm - some of them participate in those - and in St Albans we also have huge workshops which I'm trying to address very quickly. We will give, and are giving, serious attention to all these issues. Thank you.
Deputy Speaker, the hon Bloem is absolutely correct. On a visit to Malmesbury Correctional Centre in June last year I observed four workshops that could have been used to rehabilitate inmates standing completely empty, and the reason for them standing empty was that the artisans who used to train the inmates had all left the service. Apparently some six to eight officials leave that facility every month, mainly to go and run prisons in New Zealand.
Now, what steps is the Minister taking to stop our people from leaving to go and run prisons in New Zealand, and what steps is the Minister taking to employ artisans as part of an outreach or partnership with other institutions in the private sector to fill these gaps on a temporary basis?
Hon member, as I have mentioned, you'll find that in areas such as Malmesbury, and other areas, there's been a problem of vacancies not being funded, but those are things that I'm addressing now to try and get those vacancies to be funded so that we can retain some of those artisans.
But we also want to decentralise our advertising of vacancies. For a long time they've been done at national level, but now we're giving them to the regions to look at so that they can address those issues very quickly within their own management areas.
Artisans do leave, as I've mentioned here, because they get better offers. We have also said that we were going to increase our counter-offers to them so that they don't leave. If there are departments that have these artisans, we'll work with them so that they can do some shifts with us and some shifts with them. These are things that we are addressing at the moment. Thank you.
Madam Deputy Speaker, I concur with my colleagues that there's a serious problem here and it's something that does need to be sorted out. I've been partly covered by the questions posed by my colleagues, but a further question is: We have talked for many years now about an income-producing facility. In other words, we're saying that most of these artisans are working in situations where they could be producing an income for the department which could be used towards the salaries of these people.
The question that I also pose is: Are these artisans tutors or are they merely artisans? There's a difference between somebody who is an artisan and somebody who is capable of teaching, and I think we need to address that issue as well and perhaps look at the salaries that should be paid for that particular qualification. Thank you.
Hon member, remember that I have said that we are trying to address these together with Treasury and with the Department of Public Service and Administration. I'll tell you why I said Treasury; because we do produce some of the stuff in the workshops, and it's quite beautiful stuff that offenders produce, but we cannot just sell it on the open market. [Interjections.] He has his Constitution, looking at me. I've been pleading with them that some of the money that we get ... Quite rightly, Treasury says we should give it to them. [Interjections.] Exactly! It goes back. So I'm trying to ask if we can't retain that so that we can increase the salaries of these artisans.
There is a difference - you are right - between tutors and artisans. We still have the tutors as well, and we're battling in that regard too, but the more pressure we can put on Treasury, and a little bit of pressure on Labour, because Labour also ... [Interjections.] I'll sit on you! [Laughter.] I will sit on you. I'm bigger than you!
It's unparliamentary to sit on any hon member!
Sorry, sorry, Chair. That threat is unparliamentary. I will not sit on him. [Interjections.] No, I won't do that.
Also, some of the salaries are kept by Public Service and Administration. That's another problem that we are facing. We are trying to plead with the DPSA not to cap the salaries, because we're losing people in the process. Let's try and use whatever funding we have to make sure that we retain them. We're going to be working very hard towards that.
[Inaudible.]
Hon Ellis, you're out of order!
Minister, baie dankie, ek is doodseker die lede daar buite wat vandag na u antwoord geluister het, gaan harder werk, want hulle weet u het gepraat met die Minister van Finansies en dat hierdie mense nou hier in Suid-Afrika gaan bly en beter werk doen. [Tussenwerpsels.] Die vraag is nou, wanneer gaan u met die Minister van Finansies praat? [Gelag.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)
[Mr D V Bloem: Minister, thank you, I am absolutely certain that the members out there who have listened to your reply today are going to work harder, because they know that you have spoken to the Minister of Finance and that those people will be remaining in South Africa and will be improving their efforts.[Interjections.] The question remains, when are you going to speak to the Minister of Finance? [Laughter.]]
As long as there's nothing like sitting on an hon member! [Laughter.]
Chair, I did apologise for that.
Ek is ook doodseker ... [I am also very sure] ... that we will try our best to address some of these issues. However, I'm also making a call to artisans who are retired and are out there - plumbers and other people, and even amongst the offenders we do have some of these artisans - to come forward so that we can give them some work to do so as to help the others to gain these skills. I'm making that call, but I'm making that call also to offenders, because we have plumbers who are offenders and they do work within our facilities and we do pay them a certain stipend.
Thank you, Minister. We are very happy today to hear that the Minister is very tweetalig [bilingual], but to use the two languages in one sentence takes some doing. Excellent! Very good.
Escapes from prison, method of escape, escapees assisted by police officers and prosecutions
26. Rev K R J Meshoe (ACDP) asked the Minister of Safety and Security:
(1) (a) How many persons have escaped from prisons and holding cells during the most recent 12-month period for which information is available and (b) what was the method of operation used by each escapee;
(2) whether there were any cases where police officers assisted prisoners who escaped; if so, what are the relevant details;
(3) whether any police officers have been prosecuted as a result; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details?