Order! The proceedings will initially take the form of a question and answer session. I shall put each Vote in respect of which adjustments have been made in turn, whereupon members will have the opportunity to ask questions to the relevant Ministers in respect of the adjustments.
Each party has been allocated a global time for all Votes. Once a party's time has expired, it will not be allowed to put further questions. Members must please press the "request to speak" button if they wish to ask a question. Hon members should please wait until I recognise them before putting their questions.
Vote No 4 - Home Affairs:
Madam Speaker, in Vote 4, nearly half of R300 million detailed in that adjustment of estimates has to do with unforeseeable and unavoidable expenditure dealing with immigration services arising from some of the problems we had with xenophobia attacks and dealing with refugees. The DA has absolutely no problem with that allocation. In fact, we would welcome it and support it. But what I am concerned to read about, in the same light, is that the Department of Home Affairs has just been found guilty by the Cape High Court of having broken the law in refusing to renew Cape Town asylum seekers' permits and telling them that they were supposed to apply for them in Pretoria and in Johannesburg. This is indicative of a department in crisis. This is one of the many issues that arise day after day. What I want to ask the Minister, in the light of this, is whether she would support the view of not just the DA, but also the portfolio committee now, that, in fact, we need somebody from Team Finance. We need a body from the Department of Finance, the National Treasury, to assist the Department of Home Affairs in dealing with its internal control problems - the fiscal and financial problems they have there. Would she support this? If so, when will she take steps to ensure that this is done? Thank you.
Thank you very much, hon member. No, we will not support this. The reasons are not about arrogance. We will not support this because we are ready to come and make a presentation about the progress which we have made.
Yes, we have challenges. It is not only this. I think you are aware that we have a group of consultants who have been working with the department to clean up our audit report. We have whittled down queries from the audit report - from 24 down to 6. There are 6 queries in our audit. But the nature of the queries, because of the amounts involved, is such that it led to us being given a disclaimer. This was not because there was no attempt or effort made to try and clean up the report of the Department of Home Affairs.
So, we will not accept the recommendation that the Department of Public Service and Administration and the National Treasury should come in. When we needed the services and the support of the Department of Public Service and Administration and the National Treasury, yes, we came to the portfolio committee and solicited their support. They came in and conducted an investigation which led to us securing consultants who are currently dealing with the turnaround process in the Department of Home Affairs. We have seen significant changes and significant progress in the department as a result of the presence of these consultants.
But I am not suggesting that we have completely turned around the department. I accept, and we are taking responsibility, that we do have another disclaimer. But you will accept that we have whittled down issues from 24 to 6, which had led to disclaimers in the past. Thank you very much.
Vote No 8 - Public Service and Administration:
Madam Speaker, Minister, would you say the Budget is ready to assist us to deal with the second decade's service delivery priorities whilst correcting the first decade's lowlights? Thank you.
Chairperson, yes, it is true that in terms of the assessment of government performance, there are those areas where we put priorities in terms of following up on issues we set ourselves to achieve during the first decade. There are priorities that we have actually determined in terms of a programme of action. We see this Budget as an instrument that guides us to work towards that. Yes, it is true that we will be able to deal with priorities of the second decade of our democracy. Thank you very much.
Vote No 13 - Education:
Chairperson, hon Minister, we know that per capita allocations to schools are not based on what a school needs in order to provide quality education, but on what the fiscus can afford, and this results in serious challenges. Of the 40% of schools where fees have been scrapped, general conditions have remained decidedly inferior. Will the Minister's amended Budget adequately address this problem? Has consideration been given to the grave concerns about the plans that the Minister of Finance announced with regard to the rolling out of no-fees status to 60% of schools? Without adequate funds, this will further impact negatively on the quality of education in our schools. Of course, the present situation experienced by schools designated as no-fee schools is that funding in lieu of fees arrives late. What I am asking is whether the amendments address this problem in any way? Thank you.
Chairperson, if I could begin with the last question. The initial administrative problems we had with the allocation of funds to schools by the 30 September deadline have been addressed. We have changed administrative measures in order to ensure that provinces indicate allocations well in time and disburse money to schools. Some of the problems were not related to the department but arose from the fact that several schools did not have bank accounts or gave wrong information and so on. These were initial glitches which we have addressed.
The matter of quality is not dealt with only through the no-fee policy. There is a range of other measures that seek to address our intention to improve quality in schools. For example, we have over R1,4 billion that is allocated to provinces for the Quality Improvement, Development, Support and Upliftment Programme, Qids Up, for schools. This directly addresses infrastructure, the need for additional teaching and learning resources, teacher development and other areas that are identified by the district in consultation with the province and the national co-ordinating office as needed in 15 000 of the poorest schools in the country. In addition, we have the Foundations for Learning Campaign. So, there is a multifaceted range of interventions that seek to address the issue of quality.
The no-fee school policy adds a nonpersonnel infrastructure to schools. Therefore, it gives schools some greater flexibility in purchasing additional resources for teaching and learning or other needs that the school might have. So, it is not just a quality improvement. It also, of course, addresses the exclusion of many poor children from school in the past, in the absence of such a provision, because schools had a fee-raising right. Therefore, it often excluded poor children whose parents could not pay any fees.
The criteria for determining the allocation is elaborated in the national norm which you are fully aware of - the norms and standards for financing schools. Certainly, it is needs-based. But remember that the additional allocations which relate to personnel and other matters are addressed through alternative funding methods.
Chairperson, hon Minister, in view of the fact that the education budget in South Africa is by far higher than that of other developing countries, this budget does not address the glaring needs in South African schools. Has the Minister put any mechanisms in place to employ people with the capacity to identify the needs of schools meticulously and then spend the budget accordingly? Thank you.
Chairperson, I'm not sure to what degree this arises from the adjustments appropriation. But let me start by saying ...
... Ntate Boinamo, kgantele o beile kitso ya gago mo pele ga Ntlo e. Ke maswabi ka gore ga wa batla kitso pele o tla mo Ntlong e tona e. O tshwanetse gore o mpotse pele gore a dilo tse o di buisang mo makwalodikgannyeng ke nnete kgotsa nyaa gore ke go thuse go bua nnete fa o tla mo Ntlong e. Selo sa go baakanya dikolo ga se dirwe ka madi fela. Jaaka o buile re tshwanetse gore re nne le batho ba ba dirang le rona ba ba itseng tiro ya bona tota. Re leka go tsenya batho ba ba itseng tiro. Gape re leka go thusa batho gore le bone ba nne le kitso e e ba thusang gore ba kgone tiro ya thuto. Se re se dirang ke go nonofisa Baofisiri ba Dikgaolo. Ke setse ke buile ka seo makgetlo a mantsi mo Ntlong e. Re dirisana gape le barutabana. O itse lenaane-tsamaiso tlhabololo la rona le barutabana. Totatota re leka go nna le batho ba re ba thapang ba ba itseng tiro ya bona.
Se re se kopang ke gore le rona re le mo Palamenteng re dirisane le batsadi, barutabana le bana ba rona gore mongwe le mongwe a itse gore le ena o na le letsogo mo tsamaisong ya tsa thuto. Ga se fela ba ba dirang mo thutong. Batsadi le bona ba tshwanetse gore ba dire le bana ba bona ba ba thuse go buisa le go itshwara sentle mo sekolong. Ba thuse barutabana, ba tsamaye dikopano tse ba di bilediwang kwa dikolong, ba buise dipegelo tse di ntshiwang ke barutana. Dilo tseo tsotlhe di rulaganya tsamaiso ya thuto. Fa re ka dirisana jalo ke bona tswelelopele. Ga se madi fela, ke dintlha tseo tsotlhe di kopane tse di dirang gore thuto e tsamaye sentle. [Legofi.] (Translation of Setswana paragraphs follows.)
[... Mr Boinamo, a little while ago, you mentioned before this House what you know. I am disappointed because you have failed to look for information before coming to this august House. You have to ask me first about whether or not what you have read in the newspapers is true; so that I can help you tell the truth when you come to this House. The upgrading of schools does not only involve money. Like you have mentioned, the people that we work with must have the relevant expertise. We are also trying by all means to employ people who are good at their work. We assist them by ensuring that they get the knowledge that is appropriate for their work in education. We are empowering Regional Officers, and I have already mentioned this in this House, on several occasions. We are also working hand in hand with the educators and you are quite aware of our action plan for the development of educators. In fact, we plan to employ people who master their work.
We would like to appeal to everyone here in Parliament to work together with parents, educators and our children, so that everyone should know that he or she has a say in education. This does not only refer to those that work for the department. Parents should also be there for their children, and help them read and teach them how to behave at school. They must help educators in every possible way, by attending school meetings and study reports that are issued by educators. All these will place the system of education in order. If we work together like that there will be progress. This is not only about money, it is about all these factors being interwoven to ensure that the system of education runs smoothly. [Applause.]]
Chairperson, the school nutrition programme has not been run properly for years in the Eastern Cape. The question arises as to whether or not the Eastern Cape is included in the R265 million appropriated. If it is included, how much is meant for the Eastern Cape, and what monitoring strategies do we have to make sure that the money is used properly? Thank you.
UMPHATHISWA WEZEMFUNDO: Tata, eMpuma Koloni inkqubo yesondlo ezikolweni ihamba kakuhle kakhulu. Siye saba neengxakana ezithile ngaphambili, ngowama- 2007. Kodwa ngoku le nkqubo siyilungisile kwaye ngoku isebenza kakuhle. Oomama bayasebenza kanti nabantwana bayasifumana isondlo. Ndiyavuya kakhulu mna ngale nkqubo.
Umba wemali siza kuwuqwalasela ze sibone ukuba xa kuqwalaselwa onke amaphondo, iphondo ngalinye silinika imali engakanani na. Asikawenzi loo msebenzi, kodwa nephondo leMpuma Koloni liza kuyifumana imalanyana yalo.
Ngokubhekisele kwiinkqubo zesondlo, sinabo abantu abasebenza ngale nkqubo. Njengoko sele nditshilo, sandisa inani labasebenzi bethu kwicandelo lethu le-ofisi kazwelonke nakweyamaphondo.
Sizilungisile iingxakana ebesinazo ebezibangelwa ngabantu ababengenzi umsebenzi wabo kakuhle nangabebesiqhatha. Zonke ezo zinto sizilungisile. Ngoko abantwana bethu baza kufumana ukutya, kanti nephondo leMpuma Koloni liza kuyifumana imali. Ndiyabulela. (Translation of isiXhosa speech follows.)
[The MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Sir, in the Eastern Cape the school nutrition programme is working very well. We were experiencing some challenges before, in 2007. But now we have corrected this programme and it is working well. Women are working and children are getting their food. I am very pleased about this programme.
We will look at the issue of money and see when all provinces are being considered, as to how much money we will allocate to each province. We are not yet done with that work, but even the province of the Eastern Cape will get its portion.
With regard to the nutrition programme, we have people working on it. As I have already said, we are employing more workers in our national and provincial offices.
We have sorted out the small problems we experienced as a result of people who were not doing their work properly and those who were cheating us. All those we have managed to sort out. Therefore, our children are going to get their food, and the province of the Eastern Cape will get money. I thank you.]
Chairperson, Madam Minister, I ask this question on behalf of my colleague, Mr Mpontshane. I may be on shaky grounds, but I hope I don't fall off the chair. With regard to the additional funding of R39 million allocated to the National Student Financial Aid Scheme - I know it is inflation linked - the concern that Mr Mpontshane has is that in a number of institutions, the processing of applications is not timeous. As a result, many students find themselves in debt midyear and have to be expelled from institutions. Does the Minister have any comments on this particular issue?
Ke bue Setswana? [Tsenoganong.] Ke a gana. [Should I speak in Setswana? [Interjections.]] I refuse.
Chairperson, we are trying on a consistent basis to improve the administration of the National Student Financial Aid Scheme, although I must say it's one of the best administered financial aid schemes that I have ever seen in any part of the world. We have made changes in order to assist students, and Mr Mpontshane is fully aware of this. Previously, students had difficulties because of institutions' demand for what were called "upfront payments". From 2006, we made an allocation available to every university to assist all applicants right at the beginning of the year so that they didn't have this burden of upfront payments.
There are a number of policy questions that we need to look at, such as how best we might improve the scheme and its efficacy. But I think that is a longer-term investigation that is underway by the board of the National Student Financial Aids Scheme. I can assure Mr Mpontshane that the funding will be utilised very well for students who are financially needy, but who also have the academic potential to succeed.
Vote No 14 - Health:
Chairperson, may I congratulate the new Minister of Health on her appointment. The DA welcomes the additional R750 million for health care. However, we do have some serious concerns which we admit have nothing to do with the current Minister, but have everything to do with the previous Minister. Firstly, the report on the 142 baby deaths at the Ukhahlamba District in the Eastern Cape - I'm sorry if I don't pronounce it right - clearly states that the babies died due to poor health care. In addition, the lack of properly qualified chief executive officers, CEOs, at our hospital certainly contributes to the unacceptable standards of health care and wasteful expenditure. A case in point is the CEO of the now infamous Frere Hospital, where over 200 babies were stillborn last year. This hospital complex has a budget of R729 million. But the CEO has no managerial qualifications whatsoever. His only claim to fame is being an ANC councillor in Buffalo City. What steps is the Minister going to take to guarantee that the additional allocation is going to be spent more effectively and efficiently? Will she introduce uniform standards across all nine provinces with regard to the appointments of CEOs in hospitals? I thank you.
Chairperson, I would agree with you that in a lot of instances, the conditions in our hospitals are not what we want them to be. We have been addressing this matter of looking at the various levels of hospitals and health care in the department and in the health care sector as a whole. We are looking at a number of options, which I don't want to speak about now because obviously they will come forward in the policy framework. But certainly, the question of our health care in those hospitals is of major concern.
Let me say, relating to the Ukhahlamba District Hospital, I have been in contact with MEC Pemmy Majodina, who is the newly appointed MEC in the Eastern Cape. I have been receiving reports from her that she has embarked on a very energetic and ambitious programme to address those issues in Ukhahlamba District. As it was reported in this Parliament before, part of the problem is the quality of water in many of our municipalities which create a bad environment for health. That also contributed to the problems in Ukhahlamba.
In terms of ensuring that the money is spent well, unfortunately the money we are speaking about here is only the money that goes to the national Department of Health and not really the money that flows to provinces. If you have difficulty in understanding this flow of funds, believe me I also have problems with this.
But I do believe that accountability is essential. I spoke to the Auditor- General. I met with him one or two days ago just to round off matters that concerned him around the Health budget. He has also done an extensive audit on what happens to budgets that go to provinces because they don't go through us but go through the National Treasury. What happens to those budgets? He has been doing an analysis for us, and we are looking forward to his report once it comes out. So, coming from a financial background and a background where one wants accountability and budgets to speak to finances, this is definitely going to be an emphasis that we will be looking at in the future. These are promises, but I am certain that we will make improvements on the matters you have raised. [Applause.]
Chairperson, we welcome the change of hands of Ministers in this department. My question is whether this change of hands of Ministers has any effect on the progress made in terms of targets and budgets of the Health department in terms of the HIV and Aids Programme? Does the new Minister have any new initiatives in mind in boosting progress in the sector that shall meet budget boundaries? I thank you, Chairperson.
Chairperson, as you would be aware, we are midstream into a budget that was approved earlier on in Parliament. So, what we are dealing with here is just adjustments to that budget. In the adjustments we have here, we have R300 million additional funding which will go to a very important programme, and that is towards dual therapy for babies and the prevention of mother-to-child transmission. There is more funding going towards the roll-out of antiretrovirals and its uptake has been encouraging. It is more than we anticipated. It reassures that the antiretroviral programme is really on the upswing now. We will have financial difficulties in meeting the uptake. But, certainly, we want to look at getting better efficiencies going in a number of areas, and we will be looking at that, very importantly, to see how we can go forward. Thank you.
Chairperson, hon Minister, we are contributing in this debate as constructively as possible in the hope of advancing the accountability that you seek in the Health department that you have inherited in an abysmal state.
While the IFP welcomes the increased budget for hospital revitalisation and HIV treatment, we feel that our country's problems are not due to the amount of money which is in the budget as much as to how the money is misused or not used at all. You said yourself that the finances are so complex that you are having trouble understanding them. We have argued that for many years. Therefore, what steps will you to take to change the structure - that is my first question?
I will point out that the KwaZulu-Natal Department of Health, for example, has overspent by R1,8 billion. To all intents and purposes, this has placed a moratorium on new staff appointments. Yet, conditional grants in the hospital have not been spent. As a result, even pivotal hospitals like Addington are hopelessly overstretched. It is therefore in a similar state to rural hospitals in our country, whose appalling state was outlined in the national Save the Children committee. On the basis of this report, the IFP ... [Interjections.]
Hon members, particularly on my left the noise levels are unfortunately too high. Thanks. [Interjections.] That is why I said "unfortunately", from where I'm sitting. Hon member, can you continue.
On the basis of the report, the IFP has requested the Human Rights Commission to investigate the state of hospitals, particularly in rural areas but throughout the country, as the Addington report now shows to be necessary.
According to our erstwhile Minister of Health, the conditions in the Eastern Cape were not unique to that province. Therefore, we ask the Minister what steps she will take to hold those people accountable. Will she consider placing the KwaZulu-Natal Department of Health under curatorship? Will she also look at working with the Minister of Water Affairs to look at the parlous state of our water and rivers as shown in the state of the environment report on water? Thank you.
Thank you for the question. Around what steps to be taken for improvements in hospitals, CEOs are in very difficult positions. They are not given the authority to spend resources in the way they should be able to. You would know that all authority given to them is delegated downwards. They do not have the freedom to manage their budgets in their own way. This is a huge problem. It creates enormous managerial problems.
As you have pointed out now, all delegation have been withdrawn from CEOs regarding the appointment of new staff. This arises out of the overspending that we are experiencing in certain provinces on Occupational Specific Dispensation, OSD, for nurses. The fact of the matter is that the overspending is continuing at an unprecedented rate in most provinces. The overspending that we saw last year and that will be reported on is actually going to be higher. We are not exactly certain as to what is driving all the overspending. The Auditor-General is doing an intensive audit on what the overspending is about. Once we receive his reports, we will be able to have a better understanding of what that is all about.
In the interim, the National Treasury has assisted us with R1 billion to meet that overspending. But we are also going to have to look at what the provincial treasuries can do to assist the departments of health in terms of their adjustments estimates, and we will be watching what is going through. Apparently, there has been discussions going on with provincial treasuries. But let me say upfront that this is a major problem facing the health department. We wanted the OSD to assist nurses and, in the next phase, to assist doctors. Once we have seen what the full outcome of this is, we will have to take a decision on that.
In terms of steps to be taken around hospitals that are functioning badly, an Office of Standard Compliance has been set up in the department under Dr Marshall in April 2008. They have to review every hospital every three years. They are starting with reports, and they actually have the right to withdraw a license or authority to operate. I have great hope in the Office of Standard Compliance in assisting us. But we can't just wait on monitoring. We actually have to take a proactive approach. This, I think, is the approach of the Ministry as a whole. I have now spoken in detail with my colleague, Dr Sefularo, and we are both of the same mind that the quality of our health care can no longer just be business as usual. It has to become a matter of priority. The patient has to be at the centre of everything around health care. We are considering this as an absolute priority. [Applause.]
Once again, we will do our level best in trying to deal with these issues. It is intolerable what patients have to deal with. We look upon all of us here in Parliament to assist with this matter. Thank you. [Applause.]
Vote No 15 - Labour:
Chairperson, the main increases for the Department of Labour are related to transfers to the Sheltered Employment Factories, SEF, Setas and the National Skills Fund. However, this department received a qualified report from the Auditor-General for the fourth consecutive year.
The SEF incurred irregular expenditure with cheques fraudulently cashed. The National Skills Fund, specifically, also received a qualified audit report. Now, the question is: How does the Minister justify allocating more public money to a department, specifically to sections within a department, that have clearly demonstrated they cannot spend the money appropriately.
UMPHATHISWA WEZEMISEBENZI: Ndiyayithanda indlela abuza ngayo. Ukuba abuze ... how do I justify? Ndiyabulela ukuba ubuze ngolo hlobo. Ngelishwa-ke mama, kwi Sheltered Employment ngabantu abakhubazekileyo, kuyanyanzeleka ke okokuba abantu abakhubazekileyo bahlale beqeqeshwa. Into yokokuba kubhenguze abantu abaphetheyo ayithethi ukuthi abantu abakhubazekileyo mabasokole. Okwesibini, uqeqesho lwabantu yenye yezinto ezingundoqo kakhulu. Amanyathelo anokuthi athatyathwe ngee managers ezingakwazi ukugcina imali, ayithethi ukuthi uqeqesho malume kwiRiphabhliki yoMzansi Afrika. Ngoko ke, isilungu esi usithethileyo sihle sona; sinike imali Mphathiswa wezeZimali siqhubekeke siqeqeshe abantu kuba igunya lokugxotha umntu ongakwazi ukuphatha kakuhle imali, sikwanalo. [Kwaqhwatywa.] (Translation of isiXhosa paragraph follows.) [The MINISTER OF LABOUR: I like the way she phrased the question. To ask ... how do I justify? Thank you for asking like that. Unfortunately, Madam, the Sheltered Employment Factories constitutes disabled people and it is a must that they be provided with continuous training. Disabled people should not be disadvantaged because of incompetent managers. Secondly, the training of personnel is one of the main priorities. Measures of dealing with managers who are not competent in handling finances does not imply that training has to come to a standstill in the Republic of South Africa. I commend the way you have articulated your message; therefore, Mr Minister of Finance, give us money so that we continue with the training of personnel because we also do have the powers to dismiss those who are financially incompetent. [Applause.]]
Chairperson, hon Minister, your department has very crucial and hard work to do. My question to you is: Can you explain what the situation is in the unemployment field? Will this allocation assist in some way in creating more jobs? Thank you.
UMPHATHISWA WEZEMISEBENZI: Umsebenzi wethu sileli sebe kukuqinisekisa ukuba imo yokufunyanwa kwemisebenzi ngabantu iyavuleleka. Ngoko ke kuyanyanzeleka ukuba iSebe lezeMisebenzi lenze kube lula ukuba abantu bafumane imisebenzi. Ingekuko ukufunela abantu imisebenzi. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraph follows.)
[The MINISTER OF LABOUR: Our duty as this department is to ensure that job opportunities are accessible. The Department of Labour is therefore obliged to make job opportunities more accessible to the people. This does not mean that the department will go job hunting for people.]
Vote No 16 - Social Development:
Chairperson, the Minister of Finance has already referred to the effect of inflation on the cost of living. The Minister of Social Development is probably well aware that R20 is not enough to buy three loaves of bread. Does the Minister believe that the increase of R20 on social assistance grants is sufficient for poor South Africans to put essential food items on the table?
UMPHATHISWA WOPHUHLISO LWEZENTLALO: Ndimphendule? Okay! [Kulungile.] Onako okusesandleni konceda ukuba kuziswe into esuswini kumntu ngamnye. Imali ayikho. Lo rhulumente uzimisele ngalo lonke ixesha ukusebenzela abantu abahlelelekileyo. Le R20 oyikhalelayo wena abantu abaninzi bayazama ngayo noko ingonelanga nje. Nangamso. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraph follows.)
[The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Must I answer her? Fine! What you have will help to put a plate of food on the table for everybody. There is no money. This government is determined to look out for the disadvantaged people at all times. Most people will do quite a lot with the R20 you are complaining about even though it is not enough. Thank you.]
Vote No 17 - Sport and Recreation:
Chairperson, we are all excited to host the 2010 Fifa World Cup. However, if 2010 is to have a positive impact on the overall development of our sport, we need to be participants in the events we host. The lack of substantial allocation for sports development programmes in the department's budget is worrying. Government is failing to invest in proper sports development programmes, and we desperately need to develop the next generation of sports heroes. Does the Minister not think that we should be making substantial investment in sports development programmes? If not, why not? If so, does his department endorse the DA's policy of a sports academy to develop our sports talent? Thank you.
Agb Voorsitter, die agb Lee het nou regtig nie 'n vraag gevra wat van toepassing is op die aansuiweringsbegroting vanmiddag nie. [Tussenwerpsels.] Die punt bly, hy's opportunisties, hy ken die regering en die ANC se beleid baie duidelik. Natuurlik bel ons nie genoeg na ons sin in sportgeriewe nie. U is lid van die portefeuljekomitee en u weet dit, maar as u 'n vraag oor die aanvullende begroting gevra het, het ek u 'n sinvoller antwoord gegee, baie dankie. [Tussenwerpsels.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.) [The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: Hon Chairperson, the hon Lee really did not really ask a question that has any relevance to the adjustments appropriation being discussed this afternoon. [Interjections.] The fact of the matter is, he is opportunistic, and he understands the government and the ANC's policy very clearly. Of course we do not invest sufficiently to our liking in sports facilities. You are a member of the portfolio committee and you know it, but if you asked a question concerning our additional allocation, I would give you a more meaningful answer, thank you. [Interjections.]]
Chairperson, I just want to know from the hon Deputy Minister whether they are satisfied that the additional allocation of R1,4 billion is going to carry local government through in ensuring that all the stadia are ready for 2010, and whether they have done an exercise on the continued economic sustainability of the stadia post 2010. Thank you.
Chairperson, the hon Singh, yes, we are comfortable that we will be able to complete it on time - the stadia have an additional grant.
Yes, there are initiatives underway to make sure that we have sustainability of the stadia and event management after 2010.
Vote No 18 - Correctional Services:
Chairperson, can the Minister give us the assurance that, given the specific and exclusive allocation to Kimberley prison, we will now see finality of the new generation prison shortly.
UMPHATHISWA WEENKONZO ZOLULEKO: Mhlalingaphambili, ilula gqitha le nto: Andakhi, kuba andingomakhi. Kwaye imozulu ngamanye amaxesha iye ibangele ukuba kube kho ulibaziseko. Kodwa ke nangona kunjalo, laa ntolongo iza kugqitywa ukwakhiwa. Enkosi. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraph follows.)
[The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Chairperson, this is very easy: I do not build, because I am not a builder. And the weather conditions can sometimes cause delays. Be that as it may, the building of that prison will soon be finalised. Thank you.]
Vote No 19 - Defence:
Chairperson, please allow me first to congratulate the newly appointed Deputy Minister of Defence. It is ironic that in the absence of the Minister of Defence, I have to put this question to him because it is based on concerns that we often shared in the committee under his stewardship as a chairperson.
However, hon Deputy Minister, you are aware that there exists a critical technical skills shortage within the SA National Defence Force, SANDF, which resulted in, among other things, the maintenance and repair of our expensive arms deals acquisitions falling behind schedule. People with experienced skills and expertise are leaving the SANDF. Last year alone, more than 6 700 people left the SANDF and amongst them 1 660 people were from critical occupations. I read Minister Nqakula's statement on 13 October 2008, where he outlined his department's retention strategy. He said that the strategy included drawing on retired SANDF personnel and an arrangement with tertiary institutions to produce certain critical specialists. But, with due respect, this can't be called a retention strategy. However, it is a mitigating action, which is only part of the solution.
Based on the fact that this adjusted appropriation does not address the issue of critical skills because most of the money is going towards servicing strategic defence packages and their cost, what exactly, in coherent or well-defined terms, is going to be the department's critical skills retention strategy? Thank you. USEKELA-MPHATHISWA WEZOKHUSELO: Mhlekazi uShah, ujonge endenxe kodwa ugqiba kubuza umbuzo - iyandoyisa into yokuba umcaphule uMphathiswa ekuxelela ezimpondweni ukuba wenza ntoni na, kwanokuba zinto zini na ezizezinye esizenzayo ukusombulula ingxaki esinayo.
Unyanisile, besiyithetha sisentanganye, nkosi, siyibhekisa phaya kwisebe loo nto. Kodwa ke kamnandi, besinika iingcebiso kwisebe, ngcebiso ezo elizamkeleyo isebe nelizimiliselayo ndithetha nawe nje. I-Occupation Specific Dispensation yenye yemicimbi esiyishukuxayo ukusombulula loo ngxaki.
Masikhumbuzane, mntakaShah, ukuba le ngxaki esinayo yingxaki esizama ukuyilungisa ngoba amazwe la onke afuna aba bantu sibaqeqeshileyo apha eMzantsi. Aba baqhubi beenqwelo-moya esibaqeqeshayo kunye nabaqhubi beenkwili, njalo njalo, bayafunwa ziinkampani, ezalapha nezaphesheya. Uya kukhumbula ukuba besiyithethile ke loo nto. Ke senza ntoni ngayo?
Yiyo loo nto sinale nkqubo phaya kwisebe, yokuzama ukubaqokelela. Andiqondi ukuba leli sebe lethu kuphela elinaloo ngxaki, koko uMzantsi Afrika uphela unale ngxaki. Siyaqeqesha apha, ngoko ingxaki yethu kukuba siza kubagcina njani na aba bantu. Kodwa ke uze ubakhumbuze naba ubakhuthazayo ukuba bahambe, ukuba ukuzingca ngelizwe lakho yeyona nto isebenzayo.
Kunyanzelekile ukuba abanye bakhe bazidine. Sililwele eli lizwe, asina kuphinda sithengise ngezakhono zethu. Ngoko ke kufuneka sibacenge, sibabuyise aba bantu, ukuze sisebenze nabo. Mandibulele, Mhlalingaphambili. [Kwaqhwatywa.] (Translation of isiXhosa paragraphs follows.)
[The DEPUTY MINISTER OF DEFENCE: Hon Shah, you are not even looking at me but you have just asked a question. What I do not understand is the fact that you are even quoting the Minister as he was talking directly to you telling you what he is doing and what other programmes we are busy with in resolving this problem.
It is true; we used to talk about this while we were at the same level, Chief, and referred that to the department. Fortunately, we were giving advice to the department which are being implemented as I speak. We are still discussing the Occupation Specific Dispensation as one of the strategies to resolve that problem.
Let us remind one another, hon Shah, that we are still trying to resolve the problem, because other countries are recruiting people we have trained in South Africa. The aircraft pilots and the submarine pilots etc, whom we are training, are in demand at companies here and abroad. Remember we spoke about that. So, what are we doing about it?
That is why, as a department, we have the programme of retaining them. I do not think it is only our department that has this problem, but the whole of South Africa. We train them here, but our main problem is the retention strategy. But, please do remind even those whom you are encouraging to leave that patriotism is very important.
It is imperative that some should sacrifice. We fought for this country; we cannot afford to lose our skilled people. Therefore we should plead, and persuade them to come back so that we can work together. Thank you, Chairperson. [Applause.]]
Vote No 22 - Safety and Security:
Minister, at the time when citizens of South Africa are crying out for help - literally being slaughtered in their homes - it seems utterly unacceptable that, firstly, we see a R459 million allocation to administration. The reasons for which I would ask the hon Minister to detail, including answering whether or not yet more than the R90 million already spent on suspended SAPS members is being asked from that amount or perhaps elsewhere.
It is unacceptable that at this time, the second highest appropriation is, of all things, for protection services. Will this assist the SAPS in their dismal conviction rate of just 19% for contact crimes? Will this train more than just 14% of our station commissioners who are not trained in management and leadership? I believe not. Protection services already had an enormous increase in their budget. I must ask why our citizens should stomach yet more money to be paid to protect our already cosseted Ministers when it seems their worth has so little value to this current government.
UNGQONGQOSHE WEZOKUPHEPHA NOKUVIKELEKA: Sihlalo, bengithi ilungu elihloniphekile lizobuza umbuzo ophusile. Engikutholayo la ukuthi ukukhuluma nje kokuzama ukuthi kunakwe noma anakwe abe yintanda kubukwa. Lento ayishoyo yokubhekelela amahhovisi, yila khona ukuhlela kanye nokucubungula kusuka khona. Ngakho-ke kufuneka kuqale lapho, uma imali izofika noma ngabe izoyaphi kumele iqale emahhovisi, ukuze kukwazi uma isuka lapho ibhekane nezinqinamba esibhekene nazo.
Njengoba ubona-ke la kwisahlukaniselo ukuthi into ebekwe phezulu lapha kakhulu esithi kufanele yenzeke, y indaba yokucubungula amacala, yindaba yobuchwepheshe kanye nokuqinisa ingqala sizinda ngoba ngaphandle kwalezi zinto ezi la, esizibeke njenge zinto okuyizona eziphezulu ekubhekeni lo msebenzi esibhekene nawo ngeke sakwazi ukuthi sehlise izinga lobugebengu. Ngakho-ke siyasemukela le sahlukaniselo esinikeziwe thina la ngenxa yokuthi siyabona ukuthi sizosinceda kulo msebenzi esibhekene nawo. Ngiyabonga Sihlalo. (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)
[The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Chairperson, I thought that the hon Member was going to ask me a sensible question. What I find is that she just needed to draw attention. What she is referring to, in terms of catering for the offices, is where the planning and analysis processes start. Therefore everything must start there. If there will be money coming in irrespective of where it is going to, it must start at the office so that it can be utilised for the challenges we are faced with.
As you can see here in the allocation, our first priorities to be addressed are the issue of crime analysis, technology and the strengthening of infrastructure capacity because without these things, which we have outlined as our priorities in order to carry out our responsibility, we will not be able to reduce the crime rate. We support this Budget allocation because it will help us in doing our work. Thank you Chairperson.]
Vote No 26 - Housing:
Chairperson, 95% of the total appropriation of R342 million is for the human settlement development grant commonly known as the housing subsidy. Out of this amout, R250 million is to be allocated to increased costs of construction material. Therefore, hon Minister, what I would like to know is whether this relatively small amount is to be allocated for this particular purpose proportionally across all provinces or whether there are specific projects where an increase in material costs has a greater negative impact?
Secondly, because the subsidy amount per beneficiary is fixed according to income and that it is therefore related to the overall project cost, how did the hon Minister determine which projects and/or provinces were deserving of the additional appropriation? Thank you.
Chairperson, I hoped that the hon member would commiserate with me seeing that my request was turned down by the hon Minister. What we have here are requests for roll-overs. As you have indicated, these are roll-overs that emanate from the housing subsidy, otherwise known as the housing development finance segment. What we have done here is to deal with two main provinces that actually suffered precisely because of the huge projects that they have. One of the main provinces is the Western Cape dealing with the court cases that held us up, the N2 Gateway project and the issue of Delft. So, we requested these roll- overs for those specific provinces.
We have to take into account that we had additional costs because of the high costs of construction. We have not dealt with the other issues that you mentioned. So, we were not faced with all of the nine provinces requesting the same things. It was just two provinces which benefited from this because of the nature of the projects they have. Thank you.
Vote No 29 - Provincial and Local Government:
Mr Chair, regarding the additional transfers of about R1,5 billion to provinces, hopefully to throw some good money towards coping with massive overexpenditure in certain departments of KwaZulu- Natal, specifically, goes way beyond possible virement. In KwaZulu-Natal, with such great shortages, the executive could nevertheless still find money for large advertisements to congratulate the Premier of KwaZulu-Natal on his 60th birthday. If the hon Minister would agree that such self- congratulatory adverts were totally unacceptable and unheard of, I would like to ask him if he would look seriously into fruitless, irregular and unauthorised expenditure in KwaZulu-Natal, specifically from the Premier's side.
UNGQONGQOSHE WOHULUMENI BEZIFUNDAZWE KANYE NABASEMAKHAYA: Sihlalo, siyabonga kumnumzane uBekker. Ngiyathemba uyazi ukuthi isifundazwe nesifundazwe sizimele ngokuthi imali yaso siyenzenjani. Uhulumeni lo kazwelonke akanalo ilungelo lokutshela isifundazwe ukuthi masenzenjani ngemali yaso. Yinto eyenziwa yisifundazwe leyo, kodwa-ke, uma ngabe kukhulunywa ngokuthi uNdunankulu waKwaZulu-Natali uye wakhipha izikhangiso enza lokho okuyilungelo lakhe, mina angiboni ukuthi kukhona okubhimbayo kule nto ayikhulumayo ikakhulukazi uma ngabe uthola ukuthi uhulumeni wenza leyo nto futhi ndaba leyo kungekahulumeni.
Ngiyethemba kuyenzeka esikhathini esiningi lapho uthola ukuthi khona, abantu bayakwazi ukufaka izikhangiso ezintweni ezikhona, kodwa-ke, odabeni lokuthi ngabe lokhu kwenziwe kuhulumeni noma ukwenze eseceleni siyokubuka lokho. Sizokwazisa ngempela impendulo yakhona. Kunjalo-ke baba uBekker. Ngiyabonga. (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)
[The MINISTER FOR PROVINCIAL AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT: Chairperson, I thank Mr Bekker. I hope that he knows that each province is independent and that provinces decide how to spend their allocation. The national government cannot dictate how provinces must spend their allocation. That is decided at provincial level. If there are issues raised due to the KwaZulu-Natal Premier having sent out advertisements - which is within his rights - I do not see anything wrong with what he is saying because it relates to government.
I hope that this happens regularly where you find that people do place advertisements of actualities, whether he did this as part of government or as an individual, we will look into that. We will let you know about the outcome. That is the position hon Bekker. Thank you.]
Vote No 30 - Public Enterprises:
Chair, hon Minister, while appreciating that Eskom requires financial propping-up, the public is concerned about how much of that propping-up will be drained by nuclear projects and whether alternative energy projects are included. How much of this substantial budget will be allocated to nuclear energy and how much will be allocated to the development of alternative renewable energy projects? Also, hon Minister, how much emphasis will be placed on the need for spending to impact substantially on job creation and economic opportunities for the broader public? Thank you.
Thank you, hon member, for the question. Your question straddles two portfolios which include the policy portfolio on Energy, and that would rest with the Minister of Minerals and Energy. But with regard to Eskom and capitalising Eskom, I think that was a smart move; it is necessary. This is an important infrastructure which anchors almost all our economic activity. I think the Budget estimates that were presented to us indicate clearly that the loan guarantee of R60 billion provided to Eskom is intended, in fact, for capacitating Eskom itself. Thank you.
Voorsitter, die Tesourie het R2,5 miljard vir die pensioene van politici en R5 miljard vir 'n verbetering in staatsamptenaarsalarisse, wat 10% van die totale aansuiweringsbegroting uitmaak, aangekondig.
Minister Mabandla, die aansuiweringsbegroting s egter niks oor die lot van Transnet se Tweede Vastevoordeelfonds wat jaarliks net 'n 2% statutre verhoging aan sy lede gee nie. Gaan u oorweging skenk vorentoe om begrote fondse vanaf die Tesourie via die Departement van Openbare Ondernemings na Transnet aan te vra, om die voordele van die fonds met sy 50 000 lede te verbeter? Dankie. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)
[Dr S M VAN DYK: Chairperson, the Treasury has announced that R2,5 billion will be put aside for the pensions of politicians and R5 billion for an improvement in the salaries of public servants, which constitute 10% of the total adjustments appropriation budget.
Minister Mabandla, the adjustments appropriation budget however does not say anything about the fate of Transnet's Second Defined Benefit Fund that gives its members an annual increase of merely 2%. Will you in future consider requesting budgeted funds from the Treasury via the Department of Public Enterprises to Transnet, to improve the benefits of the fund with its 50 000 members? Thank you.]
No. [Laughter.]
Vote No 31 - Science and Technology:
Hon Deputy Minister, to what extent will funding for the Council for Scientific and Industrial Research, CSIR, contribute towards funding science in the public interest, particularly paying attention to the state of the country's rivers and dams which are shown to be in a parlous state according to the state of the environment report on water provided in March from CSIR? Would that money go towards commercial projects in CSIR? Hon Deputy Minister, how is CSIR able to respond to the serious absence of research grants for water researchers in CSIR which might lead to us developing the same state as we have with Eskom in relation to the condition of water in the country, with much more serious effects?
Chairperson, hon Rabinowitz, this does not really follow from any kind of budget adjustment. But the question remains quite pertinent that we are facing a very serious situation when it comes to our water resources. However, the primary research body dealing with water research is the Water Research Commission. There is work being done by CSIR. I am not in a position at this stage to indicate to you exactly what is being done in the area of water research and the contamination of rivers because CSIR does a whole lot of research work. But I will very happily give the hon member feedback in writing or verbally in days to come, and I will get all the necessary information from CSIR. Thank you.
Vote No 32 - Trade and Industry:
Chairperson, hon Minister of Trade and Industry, in your adjusted estimates of national expenditure, you appropriated R15,217 million for the Small Enterprise Development Agency. My question, hon Minister, is whether your department has the capacity to spend this particular amount of money? Secondly, will this be spent on projects or officials? Thank you, Chairperson.
Chairperson, there are two amounts that relate to the Small Enterprise Development Agency, Seda. The R15 million he is referring to is for the Seda technology programme. Is that where your question is directed? [Interjections.]
Yes, this is money that will be used for the programme. You would know that we run quite a number of incubators under Seda that spread across most of the provinces we have in the country. Those incubators actually contain some of the most important successes of Seda. Therefore, this is money that will be going towards providing support for that programme. Thank you very much.
Vote No 33 - Transport:
Chair, I think Minister Manuel was absolutely right when he spoke about the RAF. There is a systemic design failure. I have, for a number of years, been asking the department to look into this particular problem. We are consciously aware that the fund is technically bankrupt. We had a very expensive sectoral report which has been tabled and is now gathering dust in the corridors of power, Minister. A lot of our pleas have really fallen on deaf ears. This is the second tranche we put into this fund. I am just wondering now whether or not it is appropriate.
Effectively, as we stand at this very moment, we have a situation where the fund does not actually even make a payment to one claimant, irrespective of whether any offers have been made. This is a very bad reflection on the 350 000 people who are backlogged in this fund. I just wonder now whether we are not just putting more money into a bottomless pit. I want to ask the Minister whether he would consider making this appropriation conditional on the fact that there is a total restructuring of the fund, which will enable the over 1 000 very expensive lawyers to be made, redeployed or be converted into a particular administrators so that we can administrate this fund as it should be - as a third-party insurance fund.
The second thing is that we should maybe consider placing a moratorium on any money going out of the country in foreign claims, considering that we cannot even pay for our claims in our own country.
Thirdly, we should consider whether in fact the best way to solve this is not just to raise the present levy we have on fuel. [Interjections.] [Time expired.] UNGQONGQOSHE WEZOKUTHUTHA: Sihlalo, umnunzane uFarrow uyazi ukuthi yiziphi izinqumo esizithathile singuhulumeni sisebenzisana neSikhwama Sezingozi Zomgwaqo. Uzokhumbula futhi ukuthi kunomthetho esesiwushayile wokuthi abameli akufanele kube yibona abathola imali yezinxephezelo. Kufanele thina siyiRAF sinikeze labo abalahlekelwe ababaziyo ezingozini kodwa inkantolo lapha eKapa yasihlula. Sisazobuye silucubungulisise lolo daba ngoba izimali eziningi njengoba wazi zithathwa ngabameli.
Okwesibili futhi singuhulumeni sihambisana nazo iziphakamiso zika Satchwell zokuthi kube khona umthetho ozothi uma umuntu ehlelwe yingozi, singabuzi ukuthi ubani onecala phecelezi ino-fault. Leyo iyeza ngakho-ke zonke lezi zinto mina ngiyaqiniseka mnumzane Farrow, ukuthi uyazazi ngoba neSikhulu eSiphezulu sakwaRAF sikeseza kwiKomidi lePhalamende sanichazela ukuthi yiziphi izinto esizohlala phezu kwazo ukuze lolu daba silucubungulisise kahle.
Le mali lena ekhishiwe engu R2,5 billion izosiza ukuze sikwazi ukuthi sikhokhele labo asebezifakile izicelo zokunxephezelwa. Uqinisile ukuthi isimo sezimali seRAF asikho sihle, lokho kwenziwa nje ukuthi kunobugebengu obuningi obenziwa futhi abameli abakhwabanisayo. Angisho ukuthi bonke abameli bangabakhwabanisi kodwa baningi abakhwabanisa izimali zabantu okufanele ngabe ziya kubona bese ziza emaphaketheni abo. Ngiyabonga. (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)
[The MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: Chairperson, hon Farrow is aware of the decisions we have taken as government in working with the Road Accident Fund. You will also remember that we have passed an Act which provides that lawyers should not receive the compensation. It should be us as RAF who should forward those funds to those who have lost their loved ones in road accidents, but the Cape High Court ruled against us. We will review this issue again because, as you know, most of these funds are taken by the lawyers.
Secondly, as government, we agree with the proposal made by Satchwell which states that there should be an Act which will stipulate that, if someone was involved in an accident, we should not ask who was at fault. We are coming to that one. I am therefore confident, hon Farrow, about these issues, and that you are aware of them because even the CEO of RAF attended one of the committee meetings where he explained to you which of the issues we are going to focus on so as to review this case thoroughly.
The sum of R2,5 billion, which has been issued, will enable us to pay those who have forwarded their applications for compensation. You are telling the truth when you say that the state of finances in the RAF is not good, and that is because there is too much corruption going on there, which is conducted by fraudulent lawyers. I am not saying that all lawyers are fraudulent but most of them fraudulently pocket funds which were meant for the victims of road accidents. Thank you.]
Vote No 34 - Water Affairs and Forestry:
Chair, the question is whether it is a principle to accept increases in funding continually when it is obvious that the high vacancy rate ... [Interjections.]
Hon Sibuyana, I have just been informed that the IFP's time has expired. The IFP cannot ask further questions. Thank you very much.
Discussion on Votes and Schedule concluded.
Votes and Schedule put.
Vote No 1 - The Presidency - put and agreed to.
Vote No 2 - Parliament - put and agreed to.
Vote No 3 - Foreign Affairs - put and agreed to.
Vote No 4 - Home Affairs - put and agreed to.
Vote No 5 - Public Works - put and agreed to.
Vote No 6 - Government Communication and Information System - put and agreed to.
Vote No 7 - National Treasury - put and agreed to. Vote No 8 - Public Service and Administration - put and agreed to.
Vote No 9 - Public Service Commission - put and agreed to.
Vote No 11 - Statistics South Africa - put and agreed to.
Vote No 12 - Arts and Culture - put and agreed to.
Vote No 13 - Education - put and agreed to.
Vote No 14 - Health - put and agreed to.
Vote No 15 - Labour - put and agreed to.
Vote No 16 - Social Development - put and agreed to.
Vote No 17 - Sport and Recreation South Africa - put and agreed to.
Vote No 18 - Correctional Services - put and agreed to.
Vote No 19 - Defence - put and agreed to (Democratic Alliance dissenting). Vote No 20 - Independent Complaints Directorate - put and agreed to.
Vote No 21 - Justice and Constitutional Development - put and agreed to.
Vote No 22 - Safety and Security - put.
Division demanded.
Hon members, voting has taken place, but 32 errors have occurred.
Chair, did you say "errors" or "terrors"? [Laughter.]
I said errors. [Laughter.] Definitely with an "e" and not a "t". [Laughter.]
Hon members, I have just been advised once more by the Table here that we will have to rerun the Vote. The errors, not the terrors, were quite too many. So, we would not want to carry on with the Vote only to find that those errors are in contest. The bells will only ring for one minute. So, don't leave the House.
Order, Chair. There is a problem here.
Where are you speaking from?
The DA.
The DA side. Let's just quickly investigate what could be the problem. Voting session is closed but we will take care of the challenges. [Interjections.] Order, hon members. I am going to give the voting results.
Division demanded.
The House divided:
AYES - 275: Abram, S; Ainslie, A R; Anthony, T G; Arendse, J D; Asiya, S E; Balfour, B M N; Baloyi, M R; Bekker, H J; Beukman, F; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, M J; Bhengu, P; Bici, J; Bloem, D V; Bogopane-Zulu, H I; Bonhomme, T J; Booi, M S; Botha, N G W; Cachalia, I M; Carrim, Y I; Cele, M A; Chalmers, J; Chauke, H P; Chikunga, L S; Chohan, F I; Combrinck, J J; Cronin, J P; Cupido, H B ; Cwele, S C; Dambuza, B N; Daniels, P; Davies, R H; De Lange, J H; Diale, L N; Dikgacwi, M M; Direko, I W; Dithebe, S L; Ditshetelo, P H K; Dlali, D M; Dlamini-Zuma, N C; Doidge, G Q M; Du Toit, D C; Dudley, C; Fazzie, M H; Fihla, N B; Frolick, C T; Fubbs, J L; Gabanakgosi, P S; Gaum, A H; Gcwabaza, N E ; Gerber, P A; Gigaba, K M N; Gogotya, N J; Gololo, C L; Gore, V C; Greyling, C H F; Gumede, D M; Gxowa, N B; Hanekom, D A; Hendricks, L B; Hogan, B A; Holomisa, B H; Holomisa, S P; Huang, S; Jacob, A C; Jacobus, L; Jeffery, J H; Johnson, C B; Johnson, M; Kalako, M U; Kasienyane, O R; Khauoe, M K; Khoarai, L P; Khumalo, K K; Khumalo, K M; Khunou, N P; Koornhof, G W; Kota, Z A; Kotwal, Z; Landers, L T; Lebenya, P; Lekgetho, G; Lishivha, T E; Louw, J T; Louw, S K; Ludwabe, C I; Luthuli, A N; Maake, J J; Mabandla, B S; Mabe, L L; Mabena, D C; Mabudafhasi, T R; Madasa, Z L; Madella, A F; Madlala-Routledge, N C; Maduma, L D; Madumise, M M; Magau, K R; Magubane, N E; Magwanishe, G B; Mahlaba, T L; Mahlangu-Nkabinde, G L; Mahlawe, N M; Mahomed, F; Mahote, S; Maine, M S; Maja, S J; Makasi, X C; Makgate, M W; Malahlela, M J; Maloney, L; Maluleka, H P; Maluleke, D K; Manana, M N S; Manuel, T A; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Mars, I; Martins, B A D; Maserumule, F T; Mashangoane, P R; Mashiane, L M; Mashigo, R J; Mashile, B L; Masutha, T M; Mathebe, P M; Mathibela, N F; Matsemela, M L; Matsepe-Casaburi, I F; Matsomela, M J J; Maunye, M M; Mayatula, S M; Mbete, B; Mbili, M E; Mdaka, N M; Mdladlana, M M S; Meshoe, K R J; Mfundisi, I S; Mgabadeli, H C; Mkongi, B M; Mlangeni, A; Mnguni, B A; Mnyandu, B J; Moatshe, M S; Modisenyane, L J; Mofokeng , T R; Mogale, O M; Mogase, I D; Mohlaloga, M R; Mokoena, A D; Mokoto, N R; Molefe, C T; Moloto, K A; Moareng, O E; Montsitsi, S D; Moonsamy, K; Morkel, C M; Morobi, D M; Morutoa, M R; Morwamoche, K W; Mosala, B G; Moss, L N; Moss, M I; Motubatse-Hounkpatin, S D; Mpahlwa, M B ; Mthembu, B; Mthethwa, E N; Mtshali, E; Mzondeki, M J G; Nash, J H; Ndlazi, Z A; Ndzanga, R A; Nel, A C; Nene, M J; Nene, N M; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngaleka, E; Ngcengwane, N D; Ngcobo, E N N; Ngcobo, N W; Ngculu, L V J; Ngele, N J; Ngwenya, M L; Ngwenya, W; Nhlengethwa, D G; Njikelana, S J; Njobe, M A A; Nkabinde, N C; Nkuna, C; Nogumla, R Z; Nonkonyana, M; Ntuli, B M; Ntuli, M M; Ntuli, R S; Ntuli, S B; Nwamitwa-Shilubana, T L P; Nxumalo, M D; Nxumalo, S N; Nyambi, A J; Nyembe, K K M; Nzimande, L P M; Olifant, D A A; Oliphant, G G; Oosthuizen, G C; Padayachie, R L; Pandor, G N M; Phala, M J; Pheko, S E M; Pieterse, R D; Rabinowitz, R; Radebe, B A; Radebe, J T; Rajbally, S ; Ramakaba-Lesiea, M M; Ramgobin, M; Ramodibe, D M; Ramotsamai, C P M; Rasmeni, S M; Reid, L R R; Roopnarain, U; Rwexana, S P; Schippers, J; Schneemann, G D; Schoeman, E A; Seadimo, M D; Seaton, S A; Sefularo, M ; Sekgobela, P S; Selau, G J; September, C C; Shabangu, S; Shiceka, S; Sibande, M P; Sibanyoni, J B; Sibhidla, N N; Siboza, S; Sibuyana, M W; Sigcau , S N; Sikakane, M R; Singh, N; Sithole, D J; Skhosana, W M; Sizani, S; Skweyiya, Z S T; Smith, V G; Solo, B M; Sonjica, B P; Sonto, M R; Sosibo, J E; Sotyu, M M; Surty, M E; Swanson-Jacobs, J; Swart, S N; Thabethe, E; Thomson, B; Tinto, B; Tobias, T V; Tolo, L J; Tsenoli, S L; Tshabalala-Msimang, M E; Tshivhase, T J; Tshwete, P; Turok, B; Twala, N M; Vadi, I; Van den Heever, R P Z; Van der Merwe, J H; Van der Merwe, S C; Van Schalkwyk, M C J; Van Wyk, A; Vundisa, S S; Wang, Y; Xolo, E T; Yengeni, L E; Zita, L; Zulu, B Z.
NOES - 36: Blanch, J P I; Boinamo, G G; Botha, A; Botha, C-S; Davidson, I O; Delport, J T; Doman, W P; Dreyer, A M; Ellis, M J; Farrow, S B; Joubert, L K; Kalyan, S V; King, R J; Kohler-Barnard, D; Labuschagne, L B; Lee, T D; Lowe, C M; Masango, S J; Minnie, K J; Morgan, G R; Nel, A H; Opperman, S E; Rabie, P J; Sayedali-Shah, M R; Semple, J A; Simmons, S; Smuts, M; Swart, M; Swart, P S; Swathe, M M; Trent, E W; Van der Walt, D; Van Dyk, S M; Waters, M; Weber, H; Zikalala, C N Z.
ABSTAIN - 4: De Lille, P; Greyling, L W; Hoosen, M H; Woods, G G.
Vote accordingly agreed to.
Vote No 23 - Agriculture - put and agreed to.
Vote No 24 - Communications - put and agreed to.
Vote No 25 - Environmental Affairs and Tourism - put and agreed to.
Vote No 26 - Housing - put and agreed to.
Vote No 27 - Land Affairs - put and agreed to.
Vote No 28 - Minerals and Energy - put and agreed to.
Vote No 29 - Provincial and Local Government - put and agreed to.
Vote No 30 - Public Enterprises - put and agreed to.
Vote No 31 - Science and Technology - put and agreed to.
Vote No 32 - Trade and Industry - put and agreed to.
Vote No 33 - Transport - put and agreed to (Democratic Alliance dissenting).
Vote No 34 - Water Affairs and Forestry - put and agreed to.
Schedule agreed to.