Through you hon House Chair, Mr Minister, we appreciate the broad base of consultancy that you collaborate with in the fight against gangsterism in our centres. I just wish to ask, whether the families, that is parents and the relatives of the offenders are also consulted because they are affected in two different ways. Firstly, it's the relatives and parents in the main who provide the offenders with cell phones, drugs, money, etc.
Secondly, the offenders will phone the parents about the victims asking the parents to pay ransom ... [Interjections.]
Your time is up. Can you please ask the question?
The question is, are the families of the offenders also consulted as collaborators? Thank you.
If we don't respect the time, you will find yourself not having a question to ask, because of the long preambles.
Yes,
they are engaged in the process. The families of the offenders, including the families of the victims are part of the whole stakeholder engagement process. Our intention is to make this as victim-friendly as possible, so that the victims can play more central role in terms of the processes of reintegration and also in terms of the process of ensuring that there's some kind of engagement between them and offenders to find closure in some of the instances.
Some of the engagements have brought very positive outcomes between the victims and the offenders; some have brought very violent confrontation because the families of the victims might still not be happy, or if the victim is still alive, the family might also find some difficulty. So, we ensure that these processes are well managed, so that even the victims and the offender's families are able to engage and end up in an amicable
kind of solution. All in all, it is desirable that it happens like that, but sometimes it becomes a very difficult situation. But overall, it is a successful programme. Thank you.
Question 195:
Thank you very much House Chairperson, with regard to the Births and Deaths Registration Act of 1992, all children born in South Africa must be registered within 30 days of their birth. The department has 412 front offices where births can be registered and clients can be issued with birth certificates on the spot.
In addition, as I mentioned in my Budget Speech on 10 July, the Department of Home Affairs has started a joint venture with the Department of Health whereby all the 1 445 health facilities where the delivery of babies takes place will be fitted with the necessary equipment and be provided with the appropriate human resources so that no new born baby can leave the hospital without a birth certificate in their possession. It is envisaged that this process will be completed by 2021. This means
that by 2021, any child leaving the hospital will be having a birth certificate. At the moment, they get it within 30 days.
The department has signed a memorandum of understanding with the Department of Basic Education about service delivery regarding the issuance of enabling documents; mainly identity documents to learners. Identity documents are issued to learners in accordance with the Identification Act when they turn 16 years. Unfortunately, out of the 412 offices, only 193 offices are able to issue smart card IDs. We do have a problem in this regard. However, we are in the process of finalising the upgrade of more than 100 mobile trucks which will be fitted with live-capture so that they get deployed to schools because currently, we do find learners queuing at Home Affairs offices during hours even though any learner in uniforms is prioritised. This is still a problem to us. We think they shouldn't be coming to Home Affairs. We will go them in schools. We are about to complete the fitting of those trucks. We will be able to send them. Thank you very much.
Thank you House Chairperson and thanks to the Minister for the response, Basic Education circular 1 of 2019 provides a grace period for undocumented children to get their birth certificates or IDs before being thrown out of school, but with thousands of child-headed households, what would you do to reach out to children whose parents have passed on?
Thank you hon member, we get worried by the idea of a child not being at school because of documentation. This also affects children of migrants. We have met with the Minister of Basic Education where we asked her ... and I think recently, about four to five weeks ago ... to issue a circular to all the schools that no child must be barred from school regardless of their status because in the final analysis, it will work against the country if there is any child who stays out of school. Imagine if a child of a foreign national who is applying for asylum is barred from school and the parents win the asylum status after four years. It means you have lost four years of education. We can't have such a society.
I have been invited to Ministers and Members of Executive Councils meeting, Minmec, early next year by the Minister to talk to all the MECs that regardless of the conditions, any child of school-going age must be accepted to school, only us as adults will deal with the issues of documentation while the child is learning. Thank you very much.
Thank you House Chairperson, Minister, in the rural provinces, Home Affairs offices at hospitals are barely functional and as a result, many of the mothers leave the hospitals without registering their children. These children sometimes grow up without IDs. What awareness programme does your department run to ensure mothers of newborn children get their children registered and are issued with IDs so that they don't grow up without IDs for the rest of their lives?
As I have said, hon member, there are 1 445 health facilities in country where birth is takes place. At the moment, only 391 have been fitted with facilities to issue birth certificates because it is done sporadically. This year, after my Budget Speech, we
met with the Ministry of Health. We got the list of all the 1 445 hospitals which we divided into five categories. In cases of the biggest ones, where more than 5000 babies are born per annum, they will have a fulltime Home Affairs official, whose job will be to issue birth certificates. In those facilities where there are less than 500 babies born per annum, they will keep on getting visits by a Home Affairs official. The process that we have started will only be completed by 2021 where all the 1 445 hospitals will have been covered so that the issue of 30 days no longer affects them.
The issue of taking an ID is done at 16 years. It becomes easier when you already have a birth certificate. There won't be any form of corruption where people come and claim that these and that are their parents; they were born in such and such a place when it is actually not true. That's why we believe that the root cause of this problem is not having a birth certificate. We have already started that but last month when we were consulting people for the new marriage policy, in my meeting with religious leaders; a religious sector told me that in terms of their religion, their women aren't
allowed to give birth in a hospital. So, we mustn't expect them to a birth certificate. I said I will meet with them; I won't force them to change their religion but will force them that it is their responsibility that if they don't give birth at the hospital immediately the baby is born, it is their job to go and get a birth certificate because we have them in hospitals where they didn't go. Thank you.
Thank you House Chairperson, hon Minister, what is the current arrangement with regard to addressing the issue of undocumented children that are already in school, mostly foreign nationals to ensure that they continue accessing their education, including those that have been in the country for more than 30, for example, those that resides in Hazyview in Mpumalanga and the ones in Giyani from Mozambique?
Yes, hon member, that is a special case and we would like South Africans to understand it. I was in Hazyview and saw it with my own eyes. Fortunately, I also worked in Bushbuckridge in 1985 and saw what happened.
During the Mozambican National Resistance, Renamo, and Mozambique Liberation Front, Frelimo, war, lots of people from Mozambique came to South Africa. They now have been there for about 40 to 45 years. They are virtually South Africans. There is no question about it. Many of them don't even know where Mozambique is. They are around the area of Bushbuckridge.
We are busy preparing a memorandum which must go to Cabinet, which must allow us to naturalise them immediately so that this problem comes to an end. Whether we like it or not, they aren't going anywhere. Presently, in Mpumalanga alone, there are 57 000 school kids who aren't documented. We said all of them must be at school.
The process that we are engaged with in Bushbuckridge with the Cabinet will find them at school already. They are not going to be a problem after this circular by the Minister of Basic Education. Once the Cabinet discusses this memorandum, anybody who came from Mozambique 45 years ago and stayed around Bushbuckridge ... but we are busy processing them because we aren't opening this to anybody but them only. We need to get profiles of each
one of them. Who came when because amongst them are those that their grandfathers are the ones who came here. The Cabinet will pass the memorandum and give them the naturalised status. Thank you very much. [Applause.]
Thank you hon House Chairperson, Minister, could you tell us whether your system is nationally integrated? I am saying this because what we find is that ... and I have an example of a parent whose child is living in Umtata has to repeatedly come to Durban and can only apply for a birth certificate in Durban. In fact, despite all the request to try and get the matter attended to by Home Affairs in Durban, the child's father died the other day before getting one; could you tell us why is it not possible that you can go to any office in the entire country to get a birth certificate?
Unless I don't understand, hon member, maybe it is a specific case. You will have to hand it over to me. There are 412 Home Affairs offices in the country. All of them can issue a birth certificate on the spot. What all of them cannot do is to issue a
passport or a smart card ID. This can be done only by 193 offices which have been equipped with what we call live- capture.
If you want a birth certificate, you can to all the 412 offices or to the 391 hospitals you will then get a birth certificate on the spot because it is an easy document to issue. If a child is being sent from Eastern Cape to Durban to apply for a birth certificate, that is news to me and it is something that I do not understand. Let me get the facts and will follow it up.
Hon Munyai, you pressed the hon Minister Lamola's talk button. Do you want him to ask a follow-up question? What is happening?
Question 235:
Thank you very much, Chairperson. Again, the question does not give us periods under which the answer is expected, but the answer as it goes is that Limpopo we have 30 ... [Interjections.] ... Yebo [Yes.] Gauteng we have seven, Western Cape we have six, Northern Cape we have 24, Eastern Cape 12, Mpumalanga 44, Free
State 12, KwaZulu-Natal 47, and North West 23. The reasons why they will be transferred from detectives to visible policing might be poor performance in detectives' services, or is a promotion, or medical reason, or personal challenges members requested to be transferred because of family issues, not coping with detective work or requested transfer on own initiatives. So, that will be the reasons. Therefore, the members that have been transferred from detectives to visible policing are 205 in that period. Thank you.
Hon Minister, and what measures have you put in place to ensure that detectives' services remain attractive to talented, honest and hardworking detective members - because there is a reason other than the ones that you have mentioned that are causing these members to transfer, but you did not mention them. Thank you.
Well, yes. I think one reason would be that they are overloaded. It is one reason that detectives will not be attracted to the work they do. Last week I went to Khayelitsha and I spoke to one detective that had 133 dockets when the other one had
five. So, those are imbalances. However, I don't want pre-empt, but the Deputy Minister of Police is leading the team that will be responsible of establishing a specialised detective academy. That is in the hands of her. She is even going to see those that are best in detectives, because we want it to be attractive. We want more people, especially younger people to be trained on the thing.
One thing that we want to go back that some years ago, 2010, when I was within the SA Police, but on the other side, we thought that people like detectives because promotion is very hard to come about, you better promote their salaries while they are there and while they are doing a good work - the better the work, the better the promotion of salaries. Therefore, we do want to make this world of detectives very much attractive. We are working very hard on that. Thank you.
Maj Gen O S TERBLANCHE: Thank you, Chairperson. Hon Minister, we have a shortage of detectives in the country already. Now, given the shortage of detectives in the Police Service and the R64,2 million budget cut from the
detectives services budget, would you agree with me, Minister, that SA Police Service, SAPS, is contributing to its own failure in executing its mandate to detect crime. I thank you.
Well, to start with the SAPS does not cut the budget. The budget is an overall government and budgetary matters. It's not the SAPS per se. Fortunately the Minister of Finance is sited here and he hears on that. However, indeed, any form of cut not only in the detective services will affect and reduce the capacity of better product and better production in that one. However, if you have a Toyota Corolla, and you don't have Lamborghini, you will drive a Toyota Corolla. So, we will work within the limits that we have and with a hope that situation will be better one day and the better resources will help us with a better production. Thank you, Chair.
Thank you, House Chair. Hon Minister, the police detectives lack training and are unable to assess cases and collect evidence which will enable our courts to put people behind bars. Our communities are suffering
and cannot have closure because they don't know what happened to their loved ones. We have seen that detectives are unable to connect the dots and solve crimes. What measures are you taking to empower the community to work together with the police officers to solve cases? Thank you.
To start with, the first statement is not very factual. It is not very factual to say that our detectives are failures and they don't do their work. Minister, Lamola, he is just gone out. Minister Lamola is 37% overpopulated in prisons - 37%. There is not a single prisoner that has toyi-toyi to prison - not a single one. They are all sent there because detectives and police have done good job. You are not going to get life sentence and you are not going to get 20 years ... [Interjections.] ... No, it is not true that detectives are not doing their work. Otherwise we would not have prisons that are 37% overpopulated - that is one.
However, indeed, in any form of job we are doing including ourselves here, there is always a room for
improvement. Hence, I have said that the Deputy Minister is leading the establishment of a specialised ... and we will give the report even in the portfolio committee of a specialised academy of detectives. We are finding the room for improvement. But, for now, definitely, not a single prisoner that marches there, every prisoner is sent by the good work of detectives, and they are 37% overpopulated.
With regard to communities, that is constitutional and legislated that police must work with the communities. That is why we have structures called the Community Policing Forums, CPFs. Those community structures are legislated. They might not be working very well and all that, but they need to be improved so that they work with communities and the police. Thank you.
Afrikaans:
Baie dankie, Huisvoorsitter. Agb Minister, as ons na die hoeveelheid verskuiwings kyk, is daar 'n rede tot kommer. Ons moet egter vir u en u departement bedank dat daar wel gekyk is na wat die leemtes van individuele gevalle is. Ek wil u graag vra ...
English:
... are there specific measures to curb the losses, but also, is there a process or do you have programmes in place to ensure a good working environment and to improve moral and working conditions to keep detectives? If so, what is the impact of those programmes? Thank you, Chair.
IsiZulu:
UNGQONGQOSHE WAMAPHOYISA: Angiwuzwanga kahle umbuzo ngasekuqaleni kodwa impendulo ithi ... [Uhleko.]
USIHLALO WENDLU (Nk M G Boroto): Qhubeka mhlonishwa.
UNGQONGQOSHE WAMAPHOYISA: Impendulo ithi: Kulo mbuzo awubuzayo wokuthi sinazo yini izinhlelo nezinhla esizilandelayo ukuthi abaphenyi nabaseshi abasebenza phansi kombutho wasemaphoyiseni eNingizimu Afrika banethezeke futhi bakwazi ukukhulisa ulwazi. Lezi engizishoyo zokuthi sizokwakha isikole esizobaqeqesha ngendlela ephakeme kakhulu ngenye yalezo zindlela. Nokuthi labo abenza kahle kakhulu sizobathi ngochatha ukuze bakwazi ukukhula banethezeke basebenze kangcono. Uma sengiphendula umbuzo wonke awubuzile, yebo kunjalo.
Question 208:
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-
OPERATION: Chairperson, South Africa as part of the African Union collective efforts to address maritime security in the context of the African Integrated Maritime Strategy. We are also a member of the Indian Ocean Rim Association which supports regional initiatives to strengthen capacity-building of countries on the Indian Ocean Sea Board on maritime, safety and security.
With reference to the fight against human trafficking, South Africa is partnering with the United Nations, UN, office on drugs and crime under the global action to prevent and address trafficking in persons and the smuggling of migrants programme; which is a joint initiative by the European Union, EU, and the United Nations Office of Drugs and Crime.
The glow act programme is being implemented in partnership with the international organization for migration and the United Nations Children's Fund. The programme is assisting selected countries, particularly on the continent, to develop and implement comprehensive
national counter trafficking and counter smuggling responses. I thank you.
IsiZulu:
Ngiyabonga Sekela Ngqongqoshe uwuphendule kahle umbuzo wami ...
English:
... but I have a follow up question. [Interjections.]
Can we confidently say that our region is fairly able to combine threats to our maritime safety and human trafficking?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-
OPERATION: Chairperson, I want to confirm that the selected 13 countries that are participating in the glow act project are the ones that have been targeted to make sure that they deal with human trafficking and also smuggling of migrants.
Of course, I can't assure anyone here to say we are succeeding because trafficking is still going on as
issues of borders have been addressed in this House today. Thank you.
Chairperson, noting that South Africa was the Chairperson of Ayora from October 2017 to October 2019; and the Deputy Minister is speaking of a UN programme. I want to know how many South Africans are going to be beneficiaries to such programmes?
Besides your seminars and other elitist programmes that South Africa was chairing, what programmes do you have that are directly linked to marginalised South Africans with regard to the maritime programmes?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-
OPERATION: Chairperson, well, as South Africa, yes, we have participated in Ayora but then, I want to indicate that as part of the collective in those structures we are part of other countries that are also benefiting in the programme.
I want to indicate that I don't have a specific figure that says South Africa has benefitted up to so much in
terms of issues of safety in the maritime, but the department that is dealing with maritime and the ocean economy is the one that will have the specific numbers. Thank you.
IsiZulu:
Ngiyathokoza Sihlalo, Sekela Ngqongqoshe nawe uyavuma ukuthi ukushushumbiswa kwabantu kusaqhubeka okuyinkomba zokuthi ukungenelela kukahulumeni nezinhlaka asebenza nazo akusilekeleli.
Umbuzo uthi: Zizoqiniswa kanjani izindlela ikakhulukazi njengoba sibhekene nengwadla yokuhlukunyezwa kwabantu besifazane nezingane okuyibona futhi abayizisulu zokushushumbiswa kwabantu?
Kubalulekile ukuthi uhulumeni le nto ayibukele eduze. Yiziphi izinyathelo ezisheshayo ekuyizona enizozithatha ukulungisa loludaba nisebenzisana namanye amazwe, ngoba uma singakubheki lokhu izingane zethu nabazukulu benu basengcupheni yokuthi baqhubeke njalo beyizisulu zokushushumbiswa kwabo eNingizimu Afrika noma izingane zangaphandle zilethwe ngaphakathi ezweni?
English:
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-
OPERATION: Chairperson, South Africa is a signatory of the protocol and also, we are part of the sustainable development agenda, which has a call of ending trafficking in persons and violence against children by 2030. So, we are in a process, we are not yet there at 2030 but we hope that with jointing our programme with other countries we are going to reach the end of trafficking of persons and violence against women. Thank you.
Deputy Minister, there has been allegations that the current refugee crisis in South Africa has elements of human trafficking into it. Who is responsible for what is happening here and what is the South African government doing to protect the rights of the refugees as well as the rights of the citizens of this country? Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-
OPERATION: Chairperson, the rights of refugees are protected by the UN protocol that is there by all
countries, whether they participate in the glow act or they are out of the glow act. But what I will confirm here is that trafficking of migrants keeps on happening, even if there's protection, but in South Africa we have protected everyone but we are not going to say: now that there's nothing that is happening in terms of smuggling of migrants because - like I said - we have been speaking about home affairs, we've been speaking about the security here, these are the people that need to make sure that the borders are really meant for. Thank you very much.
Question 222:
House Chair, the difficult overall state of government finances is public knowledge. However, that not withstanding, I can confirm that the Minister of Defence has been involved in ongoing discussions with the commander in chief of the South African National Defence Force and the Minister of Finance over the financing of our defence function.
The House would recall that the 2015 defence review presented three strategic policy options to Cabinet and Cabinet opted for a scenario where our defence capability is expanded independently to guarantee the sovereignty of the Republic; to meet continental expectations; to have the ability to intervene wherever there is a need on the continent; and to secure the national interest of our country at all times.
A work group consisting of all the relevant services and divisions has been established under the leadership of the director duo of special information to conduct a comprehensive audit of all censors and censor platforms presently in the inventory of the South African National Defence Force.
All acquisition projects currently on the Strategic Capital Acquisition Master Plan, SCAMP, that involve censors and censor platforms and technologies are currently under review. I thank you, House Chair.
House Chair, to the Deputy Minister, border safeguarding is a constitutionally mandated function of
the Defence Force to defend the sovereignty of the country, its territory and its integrity.
Noting that the budget constraints remain an impediment towards optimal deployment of the required number of sub- units, which are supposed to be 22 and currently they are 16, to effectively protect our borders, has your department quantified the impact that this has on socioeconomic conditions within our borders? What measures does the defence force have in place to ensure a discipline conduct especially for the reservist? Thank you.
As you respond, hon Deputy Minister, can we observe Rule 142(7) please? Continue. [Interjections.] Read it, you have the Rules book.
Hon
House Chair, the impact of the reduced ability of the South African National Defence Force to make sure that our borders are not porous is far reaching. Its assessment can only be done with the participation of all
the relevant sectors of government that are impacted upon by the presence within the national space of a population that cannot be accounted for.
Having said that, in relation to the programme of the South African National Defence Force relating to our responsibility for safeguarding our borders, I can confirm to this House that a review of border deployment of the South African Defence Force commenced in 2018 the military command council has, in May this year, approved already the proposals around what should be done in relation to human resource and technologies that we must deploy for safeguarding of our boarders. Those recommendations have been referred to the arms of service commands in order for them to make their own inputs.
I can also indicate that in our plans it is the intention of the defence command that we do deploy in this Medium Term Expenditure Framework the remaining seven units or companies that were outstanding according to the original scoping of the human resource that is needed for this deployment. The seven companies will be eventually deployed.
With respect to matters of discipline, Parliament will appreciate that we are talking about something that does not only affect the National Defence Force members but that speaks specifically about the challenges that we have. I can make the submission that building a defence force in times of peace in relation to levels of discipline will always be a challenge and can never compare with building and training a defence force during the times of war. [Time expired.] [Interjections.]
Hon member, it is my discretion. If I think it is necessary, I will give him more time. Hon Mantashe, I saw you struggling to get the Rule I was talking to. It is Rule 142(7).
IsiZulu:
Ngiyathokoza Sihlalo weNdlu, Mhlonishwa Sekela Ngqongqoshe nanxa umuntu ekuqonda ukuthi okunye komsebenzi odingalayo eMnyangweni yilowo oqondene noNgqongqoshe Wezobudlelwano Namazwe Omhlaba ukuxoxisana namazwe angomakhelwane, lakhona uNgqongqoshe ekhala khona ngokuthi kufanele kubhekelelwe noma amandla akusiganxamabhande wombutho. Ngicabanga ukuthi lokho
kulibeka kude ithuba. Osigaxamabhande banelungelo lokuthi bakhiphe izwi kumagumgedlela ukuthi awame emngceleni ukusiza ... [Ubuwelewele noHleko.] Kafuphi ngibhekise enkingeni esinayo emngceleni iMozambique, iSwatini neZimbabwe lapho kukhona amasotsha abekiwe kodwa kuyaqhubeka ukwebiwa kwezimoto ziye ngale ngaphesheya. Uma izimoto sezingaphesheya eMozambique, amasotsha akhona awavumi ukuthi zibuyele ngaphakathi ezwe. Wenzani umbutho ukuvimba isimo lapho khona amasela eba izimoto ziye eMozambique amasotsha akithi angasho lutho? Uma sezingale izimoto usuyilanda amasotsha aseMozambique anqabe ukuthi imoto ibuye ngaphakathi ezweni.
House Chair, I can venture an answer to the question that the hon member is posing, but I know that the Minister of Police will actually answer it better because only last week the Minister had organised a cluster imbizo in northern KwaZulu-Natal at our border with Mozambique to deal with this very problem.
The problem of the protocol governing what happens once goods are taken out of South Africa into the neighbouring
countries and the ability to bring them back into the country, whether we are talking livestock or cars, is something I know has always been a big impediment that we have not succeeded, to our satisfaction, have it addressed. But the Minister of Police would know what the latest state of affairs is in relation to that problem. I thank you, House Chairperson.
Hon /m?ra?/
House Chairperson, I assume that you are referring to me.
Can I be corrected?
/m?re?/
Okay, thank you.
House Chairperson, to the Deputy Minister, you have mentioned the 2015 defence review. You can speak to the Minister of Finance in front of you and
know that in the Sixth Parliament there will be no funding for the 2015 defence review. So, we should not use that as an answer, sir.
If we look at the cyber security as a force multiplier we have long promoted the potential of the use of the cyber technology to protect our land, maritime and air borders, unfortunately to date nothing or very little has materialised.
With the ever growing threats at our borders, what is the current policy on the use of cyber technology and what will be done to make use of the current specialists available in South Africa including those at the Military Academy and via public and private partnerships? Thank you, sir.
Hon
House Chairperson, maybe to just correct firstly what hon Marais raised at the beginning of his statement which is that the defence review of 2015 is irrelevant to the policy projections of what needs to be done as far as the defence function is concerned.
In 2015 when that defence review was elaborated and finally agreed upon, the situation was just as difficult as it is now. Of course it has deteriorated but still monies that we needed ideally for the defence functions were not there. That is why the defence review presented three policy options.
Aware of the implications of the three policy options, Cabinet decided to go for the second option and the second option doesn't say we have the money for it. It says, in principle, the capabilities that I referred to cannot be compromised. That is why there is this ongoing engagement that I referred to between the chief of the South African National Defence Force, commander in chief and the Minister of Finance.
Coming to the latter part of your question, I believe that it is possible but further details with respect to technologies that the Defence Force is contemplating to deploy for border safeguarding, the portfolio committee can actually call for a closed session where further details can be provided which would be not proper for me to release here. Thank you very much.
Hon members, the allocated time for questions has expired. Outstanding replies received will be printed on Hansard. Thank you, hon Ministers and Deputy Ministers for making the session a success. [Applause.]