E.

Chairperson, while there have been a few triumphs in the past year, most notably the new strategic plan on HIV and Aids, which was a triumph for stakeholder consultation, our healthcare system does not meet the standards that our citizens deserve. At the very heart of the problem in the public sector is the human resource crisis. The public sector is short of close to 40 000 nurses and there is a vacancy rate of 30% in the national department, so the skills crunch cannot be underestimated.

Notwithstanding the presentation this morning to the Health committee on the department's human resource plan - a plan which is far from being fully implemented - there is no sense of urgency on this matter. No norms and standards, let alone a complete audit of required skills, have been completed. Many health indicators remain poor or are worsening. The TB cure rate is currently 56%, which is below the national department's own target of 65% and far below the World Health Organisation's target of 85%. Linked to this poor rate are the growing incidents of XDR-TB.

The department continues to have a qualified audit report and must do more to bring provincial departments in line with regard to business plans associated with conditional grants.

With regard to the private sector, the department insists on overly regulating it and frustrating its ability to flourish - this, despite the government not being able to run a quality public healthcare sector itself. The Department of Health, both as a regulator and a service provider, has a long way to go before it realises its vision of creating an accessible and caring healthcare system. I thank you.

Chairperson, in order that the money allocated to health and its various programmes corrects the many failings in the public health services, the IFP recommends fundamental changes in policy. We have and continue to propose, firstly, improved accountability achieved through decentralisation. This must be accompanied by clarity on who has authority to do what and who holds the purse strings. Health governance should be from the bottom up within frameworks to ensure accountability.

Secondly, raise the level of service in the public sector by putting the private sector to work for the public through public-private partnerships that go to the best bidders and not to the best buddies.

Thirdly, administrators in health should not be concerned with bureaucratic over-regulation concerning certification needs, price fixing, foreign doctors and medical schemes. They should rather be concerned with upholding standards, preventing corruption and attracting nurses and doctors through offering appropriate incentives.

Fourthly, the department should act to regulate - for the sake of safety and transparency - medical devices, food labels, complementary medicines and traditional healers.

Finally, there should be independent health ombudspersons and a statutory council should be democratically elected and vigorously independent for the sake of transparency and accountability to the public and not to the Ministry of Health.

The management of TB leaves a lot to be desired, but largely because of the government's changing will towards the management of HIV and Aids. The IFP will support the budget. Thank you.

Chair, South Africa's skills crisis is arguably at its most serious in the public healthcare sector, where skilled personnel literally could mean the difference between life and death. Expanding the training of nurses, increasing the number of training institutions, improving the quality of training and introducing a bursary system are critical but shockingly delayed interventions. Extensive budgets need to be set aside to attract and retain skilled healthcare personnel. Other obstacles to entry into the profession for those within the country and outside must also be addressed.

While the reasons for not poaching health professionals from Sadec countries and the expected consequences are understood, it seems a great shame that we refuse to comply these healthcare professionals who then take up posts outside the Sadec region altogether. Surely, limited contracts or other reasonable solutions can be found instead of a blanket ban on them.

Our public healthcare system is burdened with innumerable problems, ranging from aF deteriorating infrastructure to the HIV/Aids pandemic and the increasing dilemma of XDR-TB, and we cannot hope to recover without adequate numbers of dedicated healthcare professionals. At the same time the urgent prioritisation of funds for hospital revitalisation is necessary to accelerate progress.

It is estimated that for every person receiving ARV treatment, five more are infected with HIV/Aids. Government's stubborn refusal to consider the ACDP's calls for mandatory or routine testing has undermined prevention strategies, which have been weak and plagued with inconsistencies.

Specialists say that HIV/Aids is now the number one cause of child mortality in South Africa and only 30% of pregnant women have access to prevention of mother-to-child transmission of HIV. This is tragic.

South Africa has one of the highest TB infection rates in the world, with almost 250 000 new TB cases being diagnosed every year and, of course, only 53% of these being cured, and almost as many being reinfected.

One of the greatest tragedies and inconsistencies is the health budget's role in legal abortion under the guise of eliminating backstreet abortions. [Time expired.]

Chairperson, as the ANC we would like to once again stand up in strong support of the budget. Equally, we would like to indicate that there should come a time, in particular from within the ranks of the DA, that all would appreciate movement and progress. Similarly, it is interesting to see the hon Ruth Rabinowitz, after an awol of over three or four months, standing up on this podium to oppose this budget.

One of the things we should avoid perhaps, especially the parties from the opposition, is to be predictable in what we are going to say, especially when it comes to the budget of Health. For instance, today as a portfolio committee we received a briefing from the Department of Health on the human resource and nursing strategy. All of us, including the IFP and the DA, supported the presentation of the department and praised and commended the department. Yet, we have the temerity today to stand here and oppose this particular budget. We all know the challenges facing the Department of Health.

Hon member, there is a point of order.

Chairperson, the hon Dr Rabinowitz did not oppose but indicated that we would support the budget.

Today we talk of a human resource plan having been developed ... [Interjections.]

Order, hon member! A correction has been made to your statement to the effect that the hon Rabinowitz in fact said that the IFP supports the Budget Vote.

I have listened to that, but I listened to the content and not the form of what she was saying.

Thank you.

Today we talk of a human resource plan having been developed. Today we talk of the increases in the intake of nursing students in colleges. Today we talk of mid-level workers being implemented. We talk of country-to-country agreements being implemented to assist with immediate shortages - countries like Cuba, Tunisia and Iran have actually come to our assistance.

Why then should anyone stand up and oppose this budget? Why should anyone stand up and talk about some of the problems? [Time expired.] The ANC supports this budget. [Applause.]

Division demanded.

The House divided:

AYES - 256: Abram, S; Ainslie, A R; Anthony, T G; Arendse, J D; Asiya, S E; Balfour, B M N; Baloyi, M R; Bapela, K O; Bekker, H J; Bhamjee, Y S; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, M J; Bhengu, P; Bhoola, R B; Bici, J; Biyela, B P ; Bloem, D V; Bogopane-Zulu, H I; Bonhomme, T J; Botha, N G W; Burgess, C V; Buthelezi, M G; Cele, M A; Chalmers, J; Chang, E S; Chikunga, L S; Chohan- Khota, F I; Combrinck, J J; Cronin, J P; Cwele, S C; Dambuza, B N; Daniels, P; Davies, R H; De Lange, J H; Diale, L N; Dikgacwi, M M; Direko, Dithebe, SL; I W; Ditshetelo, P H K; Dlali, D M; Du Toit, D C ; Fihla, N B; Frolick, C T; Fubbs, J L; Gabanakgosi, P S; Gaum, A H; Gcwabaza, N E ; George, M E; Gerber, P A; Gigaba, K M N; Godi, N T; Gololo, C L; Gomomo, P J; Gore, V C; Greyling, C H F; Greyling, L W; Gxowa, N B; Hajaig, F; Hanekom, D A ; Hangana, N E; Hendricks, L B; Hendrickse, P A C; Holomisa, S P; Jeffery, J H; Johnson, M; Jordan, Z P; Kalako, M U; Kasienyane, O R; Kasrils, R; Kekana, C D; Kganyago, N M; Khoarai, L P; Kholwane, S E; Khumalo, K K; Khumalo, K M; Khunou, N P; Komphela, B M; Kondlo, N C; Kotwal, Z; Landers, L T; Lebenya, P; Lekgetho, G; Lishivha, T E; Louw, J T; Louw, S K; Ludwabe, C I; Maake, J J; Mabe, L L; Mabena, D C; Mabudafhasi, T R; Madasa, Z L; Madella, A F; Madikiza, G T; Madlala- Routledge, N C ; Maduma, L D; Madumise, M M; Magwanishe, G B; Mahlaba, T L; Mahlawe, N M; Mahote, S; Maine, M S; Maja, S J; Makasi, X C; Makgate, M W; Malahlela, M J; Maloyi, P D N; Maluleka, H P; Maluleke, D K; Manana, M N S; Manuel, T A; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Mars, I; Martins, B A D; Maserumule, F T; Mashangoane, P R; Mashigo, R J; Mashile, B L; Masutha, T M; Mathibela, N F; Matlala, M H; Matsemela, M L; Matsepe-Casaburri, I F; Matsomela, M J J ; Maunye, M M; Mayatula, S M; Mbombo, N D; Mentor, M P; Mgabadeli, H C; Mkhize, Z S; Mkongi, B M; Mlangeni, A; Mnguni, B A; Mnyandu, B J; Moatshe, M S; Modisenyane, L J; Mofokeng, T R; Mogale, O M; Mogase, I D; Mohamed, I J; Mohlaloga, M R; Mokoena, A D; Molefe, C T; Moleketi, P J ; Moloto, K A; Monareng, O E; Montsitsi, S D; Moonsamy, K; Morutoa, M R; Morwamoche, K W; Mosala, B G; Moss, L N; Moss, M I; Mpahlwa, M B ; Mpontshane, A M; Mshudulu, S A; Mthembu, B; Mthethwa, E N; Mtshali, E; Mzondeki, M J G; Nawa, Z N; Ndzanga, R A; Nefolovhodwe, P J; Nel, A C; Nene, M J ; Nene, N M; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngaleka, E; Ngcengwane, N D; Ngcobo, B T; Ngcobo, E N N; Ngcobo, N W; Ngculu, L V J; Ngele, N J; Ngwenya, M L; Ngwenya, W; Nhlengethwa, D G; Njikelana, S J ; Nkabinde, N C; Nkuna, C; Nqakula, C; Ntuli, B M; Ntuli, M M; Ntuli, R S; Nwamitwa- Shilubana, T L P; Nxumalo, M D; Nxumalo, S N ; Nyambi, A J; Nzimande, L P M; Olifant, D A A; Oliphant, G G; Oosthuizen, G C; Padayachie, R L; Pahad, E G; Pandor, G N M; Phadagi, M G; Phungula, J P; Pieterse, R D; Pule, B E; Rabinowitz, R; Radebe, B A; Radebe, J T; Rajbally, S ; Ramgobin, M; Ramodibe, D M; Ramotsamai, C P M; Ramphele, T D H; Rasmeni, S M; Reid, L R R; Roopnarain, U; Rwexana, S P; Saloojee, E; Schippers, J; Schneemann, G D; Schoeman, E A; Seadimo, M D; Seaton, S A; Sefularo, M; Selau, G J; Shabangu, S; Sibande, M P; Sibanyoni, J B; Siboza, S ; Sibuyana, M W; Sigcau , S N; Sisulu, L N; Skhosana, W M; Skosana, M B; Skweyiya, Z S T; Smith, V G; Solo, B M; Solomon, G; Sonjica, B P; Sonto, M R; Sosibo, J E; Sotyu, M M; Surty, M E ; Swanson-Jacobs, J; Thabethe, E; Tobias, T V; Tolo, L J; Tshabalala-Msimang, M E; Tshivhase, T J; Tshwete, P; Vadi, I; Van den Heever, R P Z; Van der Merwe, J H; Van der Merwe, S C ; Van Wyk, A; Vos, S C; Vundisa, S S; Wang, Y; Woods, G G; Xolo, E T; Yengeni, L E; Zita, L; Zulu, B Z.

NOES - 43: Blanch, J P I; Boinamo, G G; Botha, C-S; Cupido, H B ; Delport, J T; Doman, W P; Dreyer, A M; Dudley, C; Ellis, M J; Farrow, S B; Gibson, D H M; Groenewald, P J; Joubert, L K; Julies, I F; Kalyan, S V; Kohler-Barnard, D; Labuschagne, L B; Lee, T D; Leon , A J; Lowe, C M; Marais, S J F; Masango, S J; Meshoe, K R J; Minnie, K J ; Morgan, G R; Mulder, P W A; Nel, A H; Opperman , S E; Sayedali-Shah, M R; Schmidt, H C; Selfe, J; Seremane, W J; Simmons, S; Smuts, M; Spies, W D; Stephens, J J M; Steyn, A C; Swart, P S; Swart, S N; Swathe, M M; Trent, E W; Van Der Walt, D; Van Dyk, S M.

Vote accordingly agreed to.

Vote No 16 - Labour - put.

Declarations of vote:

Chairperson, South Africa continues to face unemployment of epic proportions in the skills classes. While the Department of Labour claims to focus predominantly on reducing unemployment, poverty and inequality, under the leadership of the Minister, it appears unable or unwilling to tackle this blot on our landscape. Despite some improvement in job creation figures, nearly eight million people remain jobless. As we have heard in committee hearings again this morning, many, if not most, of the Setas are crippled by fraud, mismanagement and other serious problems. The Seta situation, in particular, is a national scandal.

To turn the situation around, we need a Labour department that makes job creation its absolute number one priority, with every strategy, every goal and every objective focused on that need. Until the department accepts this and redirects its efforts from overly racially based affirmative action and empowerment policies to tackling the skills crisis, which is one of the critical constraints to economic growth and job creation, the DA will vote against the Labour Budget Vote. South Africa deserves better. [Applause.]

Agb Voorsitter, die afgelope jaar is waarskynlik die jaar wat die Minister van Arbeid baie gou sal wil vergeet. Die afgelope jaar was die jaar waarin die Nelspruitse kantoor van die Departement van Arbeid gesluit is weens gesondheidsredes. Dit was ook die jaar waartydens die Minister 'n swartlys gepubliseer het van maatskappye wat nie voldoen aan die vereistes van regstellende aksie en waaruit dit toe geblyk het dat die meeste staatsdepartemente self nalaat om te voldoen aan die vereistes van die wet. Dit is ook die jaar wat geteister is deur totale chaos in die Seta's, die wanaanwending van fondse en grootskaalse korrupsie.

Om dit alles te kroon, glo ons dat die Departement van Arbeid 'n beleid volg wat die verkeerde medisyne vir die problem van werkloosheid is. Ons glo dat die koek groter gemaak moet word, dat die ekonomie moet groei en dat meer mense 'n geleentheid moet kry, en die Departement van Arbeid doen in di stadium niks meer nie as om bloot die koek te herverdeel, om witmense, sogenaamde nie-aangewese mense, uit die arbeidsmark te druk en te vervang met mense wat aan die vereistes voldoen.

Wat ons betref, is dit nie die volhoubare pad nie, die VF Plus kan nie die beleidsrigting steun nie, en gegewe di feite, kan ons ook nie die begroting steun nie. Baie dankie. (Translation of Afrikaans declaration of vote follows.)

[Mr W D SPIES: Hon Chairperson, the past year is probably one which the Minister of Labour would want to forget very quickly. The past year was the year in which the Department of Labour's offices in Nelspruit were closed for health reasons. It was also the year during which the Minister published a black list of companies that are not complying with the requirements of affirmative action, and from the list it then became apparent that most state departments are also failing to comply with the law. It was also the year that was marked by total chaos in the Setas, the misappropriation of funds and large-scale corruption.

To crown it all, we believe that the Department of Labour is following a policy that does not offer a solution to the unemployment problem. We believe that the cake must be made larger, that the economy has to grow and that more people should be given a chance whereas, at this stage the Department of Labour is, doing nothing more than merely redividing the cake in order to force white people - so-called nondesignated people - out of the labour market and replace them with people who meet the requirements.

As far as we are concerned, this is not a sustainable route. The FF Plus cannot support this policy and, in light of the facts, we cannot support the Budget either. Thank you.]

Chairperson, in supporting Budget Vote No 16, I think it is imperative to highlight some of the issues, especially after the hon Lowe has mentioned the question of skills development.

This Budget Vote is aimed at the challenges faced by the economy as far as issues such as skills development and unemployment are concerned. Our policies and legislation already address these challenges, hence the need to strengthen already existing institutions that deliver according to the mandate. There are some that are still experiencing difficulties.

Setas have shown improvement since their restructuring process in 2005. The labour policies are sound and their results are clear, through improvement, investment and gradual absorption of unemployment. Still on Setas, I think the hon Lowe knows very well that we are hands on. We are dealing with Setas for the whole of this week. They are starting to move and we need to look at what is best for the future of these Setas.

Looking at the National Industrial Policy Framework, this is the basis for the new Seta landscape. We agree that the Setas should be restructured, because we feel that the fewer Setas we have, the better. We are on course. We must make it very clear that a decision has been made to review the Setas. Thank you. [Applause.]

Division demanded.

The House divided:

AYES - 253: Abram, S; Ainslie, A R; Anthony, T G; Arendse, J D; Asiya, S E; Balfour, B M N; Baloyi, M R; Bapela, K O; Bekker, H J; Bhamjee, Y S; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, M J; Bhengu, P; Bhoola, R B; Bici, J; Biyela, B P ; Bloem, D V; Bogopane-Zulu, H I; Bonhomme, T J; Botha, N G W; Burgess, C V; Buthelezi, M G; Cele, M A; Chalmers, J; Chang, E S; Chikunga, L S; Chohan-Khota, F I; Combrinck, J J; Cronin, J P; Cwele, S C; Dambuza, B N; Daniels, P; Davies, R H; De Lange, J H; Diale, L N; Dikgacwi, M M; Direko, I W; Dithebe, S L; Ditshetelo, P H K; Dlali, D M; Du Toit, D C ; Fihla, N B; Frolick, C T; Fubbs, J L; Gabanakgosi, P S; Gaum, A H; Gcwabaza, N E ; George, M E; Gerber, P A; Gigaba, K M N; Godi, N T; Gololo, C L; Gomomo, P J; Gore, V C; Greyling, C H F; Greyling, L W; Gumede, D M; Gxowa, N B; Hajaig, F; Hanekom, D A ; Hangana, N E; Hendricks, L B; Hendrickse, P A C; Holomisa, S P; Jeffery, J H; Johnson, M; Jordan, Z P; Kalako, M U; Kasienyane, O R; Kasrils, R; Kganyago, N M; Khoarai, L P; Kholwane, S E; Khumalo, K K; Khumalo, K M; Khunou, N P; Komphela, B M; Kondlo, N C; Kotwal, Z; Landers, L T; Lebenya, P; Lekgetho, G; Lishivha, T E; Louw, J T; Louw, S K; Ludwabe, C I; Luthuli, A N; Maake, J J; Mabe, L L; Mabena, D C; Mabudafhasi, T R; Madasa, Z L; Madella, A F; Madikiza, G T; Madlala-Routledge, N C ; Maduma, L D; Madumise, M M; Magwanishe, G B; Mahlaba, T L; Mahlangu-Nkabinde, G L; Mahlawe, N M; Mahote, S; Maine, M S; Maja, S J; Makasi, X C; Makgate, M W; Malahlela, M J; Maloyi, P D N; Maluleka, H P; Maluleke, D K; Manana, M N S; Manuel, T A; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Martins, B A D; Maserumule, F T; Mashangoane, P R; Mashigo, R J; Mashile, B L; Masutha, T M; Mathibela, N F; Matlala, M H; Matsemela, M L; Matsepe-Casaburri, I F; Matsomela, M J J ; Maunye, M M; Mayatula, S M; Mbombo, N D; Mentor, M P; Mgabadeli, H C; Mkhize, Z S; Mkongi, B M; Mlangeni, A; Mnguni, B A; Mnyandu, B J; Moatshe, M S; Modisenyane, L J; Mofokeng, T R; Mogale, O M; Mogase, I D; Mohamed, I J; Mohlaloga, M R; Mokoena, A D; Molefe, C T; Moleketi, P J ; Moloto, K A; Monareng, O E; Montsitsi, S D; Moonsamy, K; Morutoa, M R; Morwamoche, K W; Mosala, B G; Moss, L N; Moss, M I; Mpahlwa, M B ; Mpontshane, A M; Mshudulu, S A; Mthembu, B; Mthethwa, E N; Mtshali, E; Mzondeki, M J G; Nawa, Z N; Ndzanga, R A; Nefolovhodwe, P J; Nel, A C; Nene, M J ; Nene, N M; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngaleka, E; Ngcengwane, N D; Ngcobo, B T; Ngcobo, E N N; Ngcobo, N W; Ngculu, L V J; Ngele, N J; Ngwenya, M L; Ngwenya, W; Nhlengethwa, D G; Njikelana, S J ; Nkabinde, N C; Nkuna, C; Nqakula, C; Ntuli, B M; Ntuli, M M; Ntuli, R S; Nwamitwa- Shilubana, T L P; Nxumalo, M D; Nxumalo, S N ; Nyambi, A J; Nzimande, L P M; Olifant, D A A; Oliphant, G G; Oosthuizen, G C; Padayachie, R L; Pahad, E G; Pandor, G N M; Phadagi, M G; Phungula, J P; Pieterse, R D; Pule, B E; Rabinowitz, R; Radebe, B A; Radebe, J T; Rajbally, S ; Ramgobin, M; Ramotsamai, C P M; Rasmeni, S M; Reid, L R R; Roopnarain, U; Rwexana, S P; Saloojee, E; Schippers, J; Schneemann, G D; Schoeman, E A; Seadimo, M D; Seaton, S A; Sefularo, M; Selau, G J; Shabangu, S; Sibande, M P; Sibanyoni, J B; Siboza, S ; Sibuyana, M W; Sigcau , S N; Sisulu, L N; Skhosana, W M; Skosana, M B; Skweyiya, Z S T; Smith, V G; Solomon, G; Sonjica, B P; Sonto, M R; Sosibo, J E; Sotyu, M M; Surty, M E ; Swanson- Jacobs, J; Thabethe, E; Tobias, T V; Tolo, L J; Tshabalala-Msimang, M E; Tshivhase, T J; Tshwete, P; Vadi, I; Van den Heever, R P Z; Van der Merwe, J H; Van der Merwe, S C ; Van Wyk, A; Vos, S C; Vundisa, S S; Wang, Y; Woods, G G; Xolo, E T; Yengeni, L E; Zulu, B Z.

NOES - 43: Blanch, J P I; Boinamo, G G; Botha, C-S; Cupido, H B ; Delport, J T; Doman, W P; Dreyer, A M; Dudley, C; Ellis, M J; Farrow, S B; Gibson, D H M; Groenewald, P J; Joubert, L K; Julies, I F; Kalyan, S V; Kohler-Barnard, D; Labuschagne, L B; Lee, T D; Leon , A J; Lowe, C M; Marais, S J F; Masango, S J; Meshoe, K R J; Minnie, K J ; Morgan, G R; Mulder, P W A; Nel, A H; Opperman , S E; Sayedali-Shah, M R; Schmidt, H C; Selfe, J; Seremane, W J; Simmons, S; Smuts, M; Spies, W D; Stephens, J J M; Steyn, A C; Swart, P S; Swart, S N; Swathe, M M; Trent, E W; Van Der Walt, D; Van Dyk, S M.

Vote accordingly agreed to.

Vote No 17 - Social Development - put.

Declarations of vote:

Chairperson, the chronic underfunding of welfare services, particularly to children, can no longer be tolerated. The government states that children are at the top of its agenda, yet they choose to underfund the Child Care Act by a staggering R3,1 billion, or 65%. This results in hundreds of thousands of vulnerable children simply not receiving precious services.

Another factor compounding the situation is the severe lack of social workers in the public sector, which can be attributed to the perpetual underfunding. There are currently about 5 063 social workers in the public sector and in two and a half years' time we will need 66 329. This figure is stated in government's own costing report on the Children's Act. At the current rate of 1 066 new students each year, and assuming that all of them graduate and no social workers retire or resign in the meantime, it will take another 58 years before we reach the 2010 target.

Clearly government has been found wanting and the DA cannot support this budget.

Chairperson, despite the enormous challenges the ACDP will, once again, support this budget. However, dedicated focus on human capital development is long overdue and much damage has been done. Funds to train new social workers and develop the capacity and skills of existing social workers are critical.

We will need to employ an estimated 3 000 social workers a year if we are to make any difference at all. With this in mind, the 190 scholarships to social work students in 2006-07 are frighteningly insufficient, and much more must be done.

Unless adequate funding is utilised for building the capacity of service providers, our severely under-resourced child protection system will continue to be totally inadequate and chaotic.

The present lack of funding for the recovery process for abused and traumatised children leaves these children vulnerable and at risk of becoming perpetrators themselves. Children are often targeted simply because they are the easiest targets, and South African society is becoming more and more violent towards children as we experience greater degrees of moral breakdown.

Without intervention an increasingly negative impact on multiple budgets, including health, safety and security and justice, is inevitable.

The ACDP is also still extremely concerned that street children continue to fall through the cracks, and the fact that there is no orphan database is very perturbing. Dedicated funds must be made available for provincial and local spheres to provide adequately for these children in need of care.

Lastly, government's failure to extend child support grants to 18-year olds has had bizarre repercussions, including, according to social workers, teen pregnancy. The ACDP will, despite the challenges, vote in favour. Thank you.

Chairperson, the ANC-led government's unwavering commitment to eradicating poverty, promoting social inclusion and building social cohesion is correctly located in its various strategic interventions in social welfare services, community development and comprehensive social security. We therefore welcome the increased budget allocation of 8,3% per annum.

We welcome the following initiatives by our government: The allocation of R365 million to train new social workers through the provision of scholarships and to use the additional resources to develop the capacity and skills of social workers already within the system. We call on the higher education sector to work with government to ensure that schools of social work in the country are fully operational and that more is done to ensure recruitment of social workers.

We welcome the allocation of resources to implement the Older Persons Act of 2006. Government's expansion of access to early childhood development through increased budgetary allocations affirms its commitment to tackling child poverty through early childhood development and social grants.

Through the expansion of our social assistance safety net we witness how the lives of children, older persons, the vulnerable and the destitute are improving. Over 8 million children now have access to social assistance. This includes 7,8 million children benefiting from the Child Support Grant, nearly 400 000 benefiting from the foster grant and 95 000 benefiting from the care development dependency. More than 2,1 million elderly persons receive an old age grant and 1,4 million receive a disability grant.

We welcome the government's initiative to put in place measures to support children over 14 years and to remove the means test for old age pensioners. We especially welcome the paradigm shift to a comprehensive approach to poverty reduction, especially for our children, and we support the initiative to link social grants to access to basic services. The ANC supports Budget Vote No 17. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Division demanded.

The House divided:

AYES - 260: Abram, S; Ainslie, A R; Anthony, T G; Asiya, S E; Balfour, B M N; Baloyi, M R; Bapela, K O; Bhamjee, Y S; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, M J; Bhengu, P; Bhoola, R B; Bici, J; Biyela, B P ; Bloem, D V; Bogopane-Zulu, H I; Bonhomme, T J; Botha, N G W; Burgess, C V; Buthelezi, M G; Cele, M A; Chalmers, J; Chang, E S; Chikunga, L S; Chohan-Khota, F I; Combrinck, J J; Cronin, J P; Cupido, H B ; Cwele, S C; Dambuza, B N; Daniels, P; Davies, R H; De Lange, J H; Diale, L N; Dikgacwi, M M; Direko, I W; Dithebe, S L; Ditshetelo, P H K; Dlali, D M; Doidge, G Q M; Du Toit, D C ; Dudley, C; Fihla, N B; Frolick, C T; Fubbs, J L; Gabanakgosi, P S; Gaum, A H; Gcwabaza, N E ; George, M E; Gerber, P A; Gigaba, K M N; Godi, N T; Gomomo, P J; Gore, V C; Greyling, C H F; Greyling, L W; Gumede, D M; Gxowa, N B; Hajaig, F; Hanekom, D A ; Hangana, N E; Hendricks, L B; Hendrickse, P A C; Holomisa, S P; Jeffery, J H; Johnson, M; Jordan, Z P; Kalako, M U; Kasienyane, O R; Kasrils, R; Kekana, C D; Kganyago, N M; Khoarai, L P; Kholwane, S E; Khumalo, K K; Khumalo, K M; Khunou, N P; Komphela, B M; Kondlo, N C; Kotwal, Z; Landers, L T; Lebenya, P; Lekgetho, G; Lishivha, T E; Louw, J T; Louw, S K; Ludwabe, C I; Luthuli, A N; Maake, J J; Mabe, L L; Mabena, D C; Mabudafhasi, T R; Madasa, Z L; Madella, A F; Madikiza, G T; Madlala-Routledge, N C ; Maduma, L D; Madumise, M M; Magwanishe, G B; Mahlaba, T L; Mahlangu-Nkabinde, G L; Mahlawe, N M; Mahote, S; Maine, M S; Maja, S J; Makasi, X C; Makgate, M W; Malahlela, M J; Maloyi, P D N; Maluleka, H P; Maluleke, D K; Manana, M N S; Manuel, T A; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Martins, B A D; Maserumule, F T; Mashangoane, P R; Mashigo, R J; Mashile, B L; Masutha, T M; Mathibela, N F; Matlala, M H; Matsemela, M L; Matsepe-Casaburri, I F; Matsomela, M J J ; Maunye, M M; Mayatula, S M; Mbombo, N D; Mdladlose, M M; Mentor, M P; Meshoe, K R J; Mgabadeli, H C; Mkhize, Z S; Mkongi, B M; Mlangeni, A; Mnguni, B A; Mnyandu, B J; Moatshe, M S; Modisenyane, L J; Mofokeng, T R; Mogale, O M; Mogase, I D; Mohamed, I J; Mohlaloga, M R; Mokoena, A D; Molefe, C T; Moleketi, P J ; Moloto, K A; Monareng, O E; Montsitsi, S D; Moonsamy, K; Morutoa, M R; Morwamoche, K W; Mosala, B G; Moss, L N; Moss, M I; Mpahlwa, M B ; Mpontshane, A M; Mshudulu, S A; Mthembu, B; Mthethwa, E N; Mtshali, E; Mzondeki, M J G; Nawa, Z N; Ndzanga, R A; Nefolovhodwe, P J; Nel, A C; Nene, M J ; Nene, N M; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngaleka, E; Ngcengwane, N D; Ngcobo, B T; Ngcobo, E N N; Ngcobo, N W; Ngculu, L V J; Ngele, N J; Ngwenya, M L; Ngwenya, W; Nhlengethwa, D G; Njikelana, S J ; Nkabinde, N C; Nkuna, C; Nqakula, C; Ntuli, B M; Ntuli, M M; Ntuli, R S; Nwamitwa-Shilubana, T L P; Nxumalo, M D; Nxumalo, S N ; Nyambi, A J; Nzimande, L P M; Olifant, D A A; Oliphant, G G; Oosthuizen, G C; Padayachie, R L; Pahad, E G; Pandor, G N M; Phadagi, M G; Phungula, J P; Pieterse, R D; Pule, B E; Rabinowitz, R; Radebe, B A; Radebe, J T; Rajbally, S ; Ramgobin, M; Ramodibe, D M; Ramotsamai, C P M; Rasmeni, S M; Reid, L R R; Roopnarain, U; Rwexana, S P; Saloojee, E; Schippers, J; Schneemann, G D; Schoeman, E A; Seadimo, M D; Seaton, S A; Sefularo, M; Selau, G J; Shabangu, S; Sibande, M P; Sibanyoni, J B; Siboza, S ; Sibuyana, M W; Sigcau , S N; Simmons, S; Sisulu, L N; Skhosana, W M; Skosana, M B; Skweyiya, Z S T; Smith, V G; Solomon, G; Sonjica, B P; Sonto, M R; Sosibo, J E; Sotyu, M M; Surty, M E ; Swanson-Jacobs, J; Swart, S N; Thabethe, E; Tobias, T V; Tolo, L J; Tshabalala-Msimang, M E; Tshivhase, T J; Tshwete, P; Vadi, I; Van den Heever, R P Z; Van der Merwe, J H; Van der Merwe, S C ; Van Wyk, A; Vos, S C; Vundisa, S S; Wang, Y; Woods, G G; Xolo, E T; Yengeni, L E; Zita, L; Zulu, B Z.

NOES - 36: Blanch, J P I; Boinamo, G G; Delport, J T; Doman, W P; Dreyer, A M; Ellis, M J; Farrow, S B; Gibson, D H M; Groenewald, P J; Joubert, L K; Julies, I F; Kalyan, S V; Kohler-Barnard, D; Labuschagne, L B; Lee, T D; Leon , A J; Lowe, C M; Marais, S J F; Masango, S J; Minnie, K J ; Morgan, G R; Nel, A H; Opperman , S E; Sayedali-Shah, M R; Schmidt, H C; Selfe, J; Seremane, W J; Smuts, M; Spies, W D; Stephens, J J M; Steyn, A C; Swart, P S; Swathe, M M; Trent, E W; Van Der Walt, D; Van Dyk, S M. Vote accordingly agreed to.

Vote No 18 - Sport and Recreation South Africa - put.

Declarations of vote:

Madam Chairperson, we will not support the Budget Vote this year for the following three reasons. [Interjections.] Firstly, last year we supported the Budget Vote because we were promised that Boxing SA's house would be in order. However, this year Boxing SA has received another disclaimer of opinion of the Auditor-General.

Secondly, the transformation agenda continues to be racist and is pursued at the expense of the development of sport at school and at club level. Thirdly, the department continues to have an unacceptable backlog in terms of infrastructure.

The department can be likened to a rudderless ship, as a director-general has still not been appointed. We cannot understand why the previous incumbent's contract could not be extended. He was professional, diligent and efficient. I thank you, Chairperson.

Chairperson, I rise on a point of order. Is it correct for the hon member to proclaim that the policies of a department are racist? I thought that that was not something to be done and to be said in Parliament, so I would like that to be withdrawn.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Hon Deputy Minister, you cannot say that a person is racist or a member is racist, but you can say that a party is racist and that a department is racist.

Madam Chair, the hon Mr De Lange has just said that the DA is racist, and then he said, "Mike is a racist". [Interjections.] I do believe that is unparliamentary.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Hon member, are you raising a point of order or just making a comment?

I beg your pardon; I am raising a point of order, yes.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Hon Minister, it is unparliamentary to say this.

I did not refer to a single person in your ruling. I said, "Then they are racist." That's what I said. I didn't say ... If he wants to be a racist, that's fine. But I didn't say he was a racist. [Laughter.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): I think, hon members, that this is an issue of semantics which can go very badly wrong. So, please, let's try to avoid the word, even if you are now saying that it's "they who are". I am not ruling you out of order, but I know that it is a sensitive issue to call people racist, and therefore let's try to avoid it. Thank you.

Chairperson, I rise on a further point of order. The Deputy Minister clearly indicated with his hand towards this side of the House ... [Laughter.] ... including all of us here, saying "They are racist". In fact, then he means that individual Members of Parliament are racist, and he should withdraw that and apologise. [Interjections.]

Madam Chair, I rise on a point of order. I do support fully what the hon Van der Merwe has said. You cannot point at a group of people and say, "They are racist," because they think he is singling out individuals within that group. He is not saying the DA is racist. He is not referring to a political party. He is saying: "They are racist."

I rise on a point of order, Madam Chair. You have already ruled on the matter. I do not understand why they continue to resuscitate it. Your ruling was that if the comment was not targeted at an individual member, then it was not out of order. You have already ruled on the matter. I urge you to put the matter to rest. Thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): I must say that I find this difficult because I know the rule and the rule says that you can say this about a party and that you can say it about a department, but not about an individual. If it is actually stated that it was not directed at an individual, then I cannot rule it out of order. Thank you. Can we continue with declarations?

No, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, then in terms of your ruling, I just want to say: They are idiots. [Laughter.] [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Order, please! Order, please! Order, please! I am not going to take any more points of order on this particular issue. I am asking if there is a declaration of vote on Sport and Recreation SA. I have heard the DA. Are there any further declarations?

Voorsitter, dit is eintlik baie jammer dat ons moet stem oor die begrotingspos vir sport en ontspanning, want ek dink almal van ons stem saam dat sport een van die potensieel verenigende faktore in hierdie land kan wees. Ons het dit al in die geskiedenis gesien. Ons het dit in 1995 gesien en in 1996 gesien, maar ongelukkig is dit anders in Suid-Afrika in 2007.

Die VF Plus kan nie vir hierdie begrotingspos stem nie en wel om die eenvoudige rede dat hierdie begrotingspos se geld aangewend gaan word om die Minister in staat te stel om sy magte, wat hy verkry in terme van die Wysigingswet op Sport en Ontspanning, uit te oefen en deur te voer. Hierdie magte stel die Minister in staat om in te meng in dispute wat hy self kan skep. Hy kan self riglyne uitvaardig oor hoe spanne moet lyk en wanneer daar dispute oor die spanne kom, kan hy self ingryp om die dispuut op te los. Dit is 'n onaanvaarbare situasie. Die VF Plus kan dit nie aanvaar nie en kan om daardie rede ook nie hierdie begroting steun nie. (Translation of Afrikaans declaration of vote follows.)

[Mr W D SPIES: Chairperson, it is actually very sad that we have to vote on the Budget Vote for sport and recreation, as I think we all agree that sport has the potential to be one of the most uniting factors in this country. We have already seen it in our history. We saw it in 1995 and again in 1996, but unfortunately things are different in South Africa in 2007.

The FF Plus cannot support this Vote for the simple reason that the money for this Vote will be used to enable the Minister to exercise and implement the power, he has in terms of the National Sport and Recreation Amendment Act. These powers enable the Minister to intervene in disputes which he can create himself. He will be able to issue guidelines concerning the composition of teams and, when it comes to a dispute over the teams, he will be able to intervene himself and settle the dispute. This is an unacceptable situation. The FF Plus cannot accept it and, for this reason, cannot support this budget either.]

Chairperson, the ANC Stellenbosch resolution demands of the ANC to increase the pace of transformation in sport, and up to now we have not had another conference. The ANC has not reviewed that for any other reason. Therefore, it is on the right course to increase the pace of transformation in sport in particular in this country.

The other matter is around the issue of Boxing SA. The DA, through Mr Lee, knows that in terms of the disclaimer that the Auditor-General gave there are only two things that he talked about. This is not the huge discrepancy that he is trying to purport in front of this House. He knows, in terms of the matter we have asked Boxing SA about, that they must report on a quarterly basis so that we can see how they are resolving this matter. They have done exactly that. They are no longer in that situation and the next time they report on what Mr Lee discussed they will no longer have that problem. I do not know what the problem is now.

The other thing is that as far as the Bill before the House today is concerned, what Mr Spies was saying is not correct. Mr Spies is so obsessed - like Donald Lee - that a change is only racist when it is a change demanded by the majority of the people of this country. It is not racist when it is demanded in exclusion of the majority of the people of this country. Thank you, Chair.

Division demanded.

During division:

Agb Voorsitter, op 'n punt van orde: kan ons net duidelikheid kry? Gewoonlik as die stelsel geaktiveer word, verander die skermpie ook, maar ek sien by baie lede verander hy nie. Is dit dan 'n defek in die stelsel? Moet ons dan ons name weer gee of word hy nog steeds aangeteken as jy net die knoppies druk?

Die HUISVOORSITTER (Me C-S Botha): Laat ek net vra. Net 'n oomblik. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[Mr P J GROENEWALD: Chairperson, on a point of order: Can we just have clarity? Usually the screen also changes when the system is activated, but I see this isn't happening for many of the members. Is it a defect in the system? Do we have to enter our names again or is it still logged on if you just press the buttons?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Let me just ask. Just a moment.]

Madam Chair, it would appear that most of the people whose system isn't working are not members of the DA. I'm quite happy to ask members of the DA to go round to assist people on how to vote in future. [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Agb Groenewald, die name kom deur. [Hon Groenewald, the names are coming through.]

Goed. [Very well.]

The House divided:

AYES - 255: Abram, S; Anthony, T G; Asiya, S E; Balfour, B M N; Baloyi, M R; Bapela, K O; Bhamjee, Y S; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, M J; Bhengu, P; Bhoola, R B; Bici, J; Biyela, B P ; Bloem, D V; Bogopane-Zulu, H I; Bonhomme, T J; Botha, N G W; Burgess, C V; Buthelezi, M G; Cele, M A; Chalmers, J; Chang, E S; Chikunga, L S; Chohan-Khota, F I; Combrinck, J J; Cronin, J P; Cupido, H B ; Cwele, S C; Dambuza, B N; Daniels, P; Davies, R H; De Lange, J H; Diale, L N; Dikgacwi, M M; Direko, I W; Dithebe, S L; Ditshetelo, P H K; Dlali, D M; Doidge, G Q M; Du Toit, D C ; Dudley, C; Fihla, N B; Frolick, C T; Fubbs, J L; Gabanakgosi, P S; Gaum, A H; Gcwabaza, N E ; George, M E; Gerber, P A; Gigaba, K M N; Godi, N T; Gololo, C L; Gomomo, P J; Gore, V C; Greyling, C H F; Gumede, D M; Gxowa, N B; Hajaig, F; Hanekom, D A ; Hangana, N E; Hendricks, L B; Hendrickse, P A C; Holomisa, S P; Jeffery, J H; Johnson, M; Jordan, Z P; Kalako, M U; Kasienyane, O R; Kasrils, R; Kekana, C D; Kganyago, N M; Khoarai, L P; Kholwane, S E; Khumalo, K K; Khunou, N P; Komphela, B M; Kondlo, N C; Kotwal, Z; Landers, L T; Lebenya, P; Lekgetho, G; Lishivha, T E; Louw, J T; Louw, S K; Ludwabe, C I; Luthuli, A N; Maake, J J; Mabe, L L; Mabena, D C; Mabudafhasi, T R; Madasa, Z L; Madikiza, G T; Madlala-Routledge, N C ; Maduma, L D; Madumise, M M; Magwanishe, G B; Mahlaba, T L; Mahlangu- Nkabinde, G L; Mahlawe, N M; Mahote, S; Maine, M S; Maja, S J; Makasi, X C; Makgate, M W; Malahlela, M J; Maloyi, P D N; Maluleka, H P; Maluleke, D K; Manana, M N S; Manuel, T A; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Mars, I; Martins, B A D; Maserumule, F T; Mashangoane, P R; Mashigo, R J; Mashile, B L; Masutha, T M; Mathibela, N F; Matlala, M H; Matsemela, M L; Matsepe- Casaburri, I F; Matsomela, M J J ; Maunye, M M; Mayatula, S M; Mdladlose, M M; Mentor, M P; Meshoe, K R J; Mgabadeli, H C; Mkhize, Z S; Mkongi, B M; Mlangeni, A; Mnguni, B A; Mnyandu, B J; Moatshe, M S; Modisenyane, L J; Mofokeng, T R; Mogale, O M; Mogase, I D; Mohamed, I J; Mohlaloga, M R; Mokoena, A D; Molefe, C T; Moleketi, P J ; Moloto, K A; Monareng, O E; Montsitsi, S D; Moonsamy, K; Morutoa, M R; Morwamoche, K W; Mosala, B G; Moss, L N; Moss, M I; Mpahlwa, M B ; Mpontshane, A M; Mshudulu, S A; Mthembu, B; Mthethwa, E N; Mtshali, E; Mzondeki, M J G; Nawa, Z N; Ndzanga, R A; Nefolovhodwe, P J; Nel, A C; Nene, M J ; Nene, N M; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngaleka, E; Ngcengwane, N D; Ngcobo, B T; Ngcobo, E N N; Ngcobo, N W; Ngculu, L V J; Ngele, N J; Ngwenya, M L; Ngwenya, W; Nhlengethwa, D G; Njikelana, S J ; Nkabinde, N C; Nkuna, C; Nqakula, C; Ntuli, B M; Ntuli, M M; Ntuli, R S; Nwamitwa-Shilubana, T L P; Nxumalo, M D; Nxumalo, S N ; Nyambi, A J; Nzimande, L P M; Olifant, D A A; Oliphant, G G; Oosthuizen, G C; Padayachie, R L; Pahad, E G; Pandor, G N M; Phadagi, M G; Phungula, J P; Pieterse, R D; Pule, B E; Rabinowitz, R; Radebe, B A; Radebe, J T; Rajbally, S ; Ramgobin, M; Ramodibe, D M; Ramotsamai, C P M; Rasmeni, S M; Reid, L R R; Roopnarain, U; Rwexana, S P; Saloojee, E; Schippers, J; Schneemann, G D; Schoeman, E A; Seadimo, M D; Seaton, S A; Sefularo, M; Selau, G J; Shabangu, S; Sibande, M P; Sibanyoni, J B; Siboza, S ; Sibuyana, M W; Sigcau , S N; Sisulu, L N; Skhosana, W M; Skosana, M B; Skweyiya, Z S T; Smith, V G; Solomon, G; Sonjica, B P; Sonto, M R; Sosibo, J E; Sotyu, M M; Surty, M E ; Swanson- Jacobs, J; Swart, S N; Thabethe, E; Tobias, T V; Tolo, L J; Tshabalala- Msimang, M E; Tshivhase, T J; Tshwete, P; Vadi, I; Van den Heever, R P Z; Van der Merwe, J H; Van der Merwe, S C ; Van Wyk, A; Vos, S C; Vundisa, S S; Wang, Y; Xolo, E T; Yengeni, L E; Zita, L; Zulu, B Z.

NOES - 37: Blanch, J P I; Boinamo, G G; Delport, J T; Doman, W P; Dreyer, A M; Ellis, M J; Farrow, S B; Gibson, D H M; Groenewald, P J; Joubert, L K; Julies, I F; Kalyan, S V; Kohler-Barnard, D; Labuschagne, L B; Lee, T D; Leon , A J; Lowe, C M; Marais, S J F; Masango, S J; Minnie, K J ; Morgan, G R; Nel, A H; Opperman , S E; Sayedali-Shah, M R; Schmidt, H C; Selfe, J; Seremane, W J; Simmons, S; Smuts, M; Spies, W D; Stephens, J J M; Steyn, A C; Swart, P S; Swathe, M M; Trent, E W; Van Der Walt, D; Van Dyk, S M.

Vote accordingly agreed to.

Vote No 19 - Correctional Services - put.

Declarations of vote:

Chairperson, there are thousands of dedicated officials in the Department of Correctional Services who succeed, against overwhelming odds, in making a difference, and in achieving the goal of correcting and rehabilitating offenders. To them we say: Well done and keep it up.

We are also delighted that Mr Vernie Petersen has been appointed as the new national commissioner and we hope that he will be the proverbial new broom that will sweep clean.

But there's another side to the department. It's the side that has resulted in five successive qualified audits of the department's accounts. It's the department that, in its kid-glove treatment of Schabir Shaik and Tony Yengeni, made a mockery of their sentences. It's the department that has only half completed one of the eight new generation prisons promised between 2002 and 2006.

It's the department whose members allowed Annanias Mathe to escape from a prison that was supposedly the most secure in South Africa. It's the department that lost 8 292 tagging devices in Westville at a cost of more than R7 million that no one seems to have accounted for. It's the department that despite the huge challenges it faces underspent on last year's budget and left 1 718 funded posts unfilled. Under these circumstances we must and we will oppose the Vote. Thank you, Chairperson.

Madam Chair, we will support this Budget Vote. However, we have to agree that there are major problems in this department. We sincerely hope that this year the budget will be spent as planned. In fact, the funds need to be spent as planned this year. We hope that the staff shortages will be addressed once and for all. We really do have a problem, and it needs to be addressed. We need to see that the corruption is stamped out in this department. There are major problems, and they have to be addressed.

We want to see that the concerns that the Portfolio Committee on Correctional Services have addressed will be dealt with and that we get answers to these matters this year. We want to see the eight new generation prisons built this year. We really want to see progress.

We also congratulate the new national commissioner. I believe we have an extremely capable, very motivated and very positive man in our new commissioner and with his help, I believe, we can make a difference. Minister, I hope that you will be tackling these challenges this year to see that this department really moves.

Agbare Voorsitter, die Departement van Korrektiewe Dienste is een van die komponente wat baie belangrik is vir die bekamping van misdaad in Suid-Afrika. Stem die agbare Minister saam of nie met die feit dat 'n persoon soos Tony Yengeni voorkeurbehandeling kry en dat hy nie sy volle deel van sy vonnis hoef uit te dien nie. Ek kan vir die agbare Minister voorbeelde gee van ander gevangenes wat 'n baie geringer oortreding as Mnr Tony Yengeni begaan het en wat langer in die gevangenis moet deurbring.

Daardie persepsie gee 'n sein na die publiek toe dat as jy die regte lidmaatskaart het dan gaan jy voorkeurbehandeling kry. Dit bevorder beslis misdaad en dit bekamp nie misdaad soos wat dit behoort te doen nie. Misdadigers moet hulle vonnisse uitdien. Die Vryheidsfront Plus sal nie die begroting ondersteun nie. (Translation of Afrikaans declaration of vote follows.)

[Mr P J GROENEWALD: Hon Chairperson, the Department of Correctional Services is one of the components that are vital in combating crime in South Africa. Does the hon Minister agree or disagree with the fact that a person like Tony Yengeni gets preferential treatment and does not have to serve his full sentence. I can give the hon Minister examples of other prisoners who have committed far lesser transgressions than Mr Tony Yengeni and have to remain in prison for longer.

This perception indicates to the public that if one has the correct membership card one will receive preferential treatment. This certainly promotes crime instead of combating crime in the way it is supposed to do. Criminals should serve their sentences. The FF Plus will not support the budget.]

Madam Chairperson, we all know very, very well that prisons were never used as rehabilitation centres in the past but rather as tools to oppress freedom fighters. The ANC changed the approach. They are now rehabilitation centres.

Madam Chairperson, I am very confident that our new national commissioner Petersen will make a difference. You can already notice a positive approach by the commissioner. Let's give him a chance. I'm sure he will prove himself, I am positive about that. The ANC will definitely support this Budget Vote. Thank you very much. [Applause.]

Madam Chairperson ... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Hon members, we've had these particular unfortunate noises several times when this particular member rises. I really find it despicable and I hope that it is the last time I will ever hear it in this House. Please continue, hon member.

Madam Chairperson, the Democratic Alliance calls for a division.

Division demanded.

The House divided:

AYES - 250: Abram, S; Anthony, T G; Asiya, S E; Balfour, B M N; Baloyi, M R; Bapela, K O; Bhamjee, Y S; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, M J; Bhengu, P; Bhoola, R B; Bici, J; Biyela, B P ; Bloem, D V; Bogopane-Zulu, H I; Bonhomme, T J; Botha, N G W; Burgess, C V; Buthelezi, M G; Cele, M A; Chalmers, J; Chang, E S; Chikunga, L S; Chohan-Khota, F I; Combrinck, J J; Cronin, J P; Cwele, S C; Dambuza, B N; Daniels, P; Davies, R H; De Lange, J H; Diale, L N; Dikgacwi, M M; Direko, I W; Dithebe, S L; Ditshetelo, P H K; Dlali, D M; Du Toit, D C ; Fihla, N B; Frolick, C T; Gabanakgosi, P S; Gaum, A H; Gcwabaza, N E ; George, M E; Gerber, P A; Gigaba, K M N; Gololo, C L; Gomomo, P J; Gore, V C; Greyling, C H F; Gumede, D M; Gxowa, N B; Hajaig, F; Hanekom, D A ; Hangana, N E; Hendricks, L B; Hendrickse, P A C; Holomisa, S P; Jeffery, J H; Johnson, M; Jordan, Z P; Kalako, M U; Kasienyane, O R; Kasrils, R; Kekana, C D; Kganyago, N M; Khoarai, L P; Kholwane, S E; Khumalo, K K; Khumalo, K M; Khunou, N P; Komphela, B M; Kondlo, N C; Kotwal, Z; Landers, L T; Lebenya, P; Lekgetho, G; Lishivha, T E; Louw, J T; Louw, S K; Ludwabe, C I; Luthuli, A N; Maake, J J; Mabe, L L; Mabena, D C; Mabudafhasi, T R; Madasa, Z L; Madella, A F; Madikiza, G T; Madlala-Routledge, N C ; Maduma, L D; Madumise, M M; Magwanishe, G B; Mahlaba, T L; Mahlangu- Nkabinde, G L; Mahlawe, N M; Mahote, S; Maine, M S; Maja, S J; Makasi, X C; Makgate, M W; Malahlela, M J; Maloyi, P D N; Maluleka, H P; Maluleke, D K; Manana, M N S; Manuel, T A; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Mars, I; Martins, B A D; Maserumule, F T; Mashangoane, P R; Mashigo, R J; Mashile, B L; Masutha, T M; Mathibela, N F; Matlala, M H; Matsemela, M L; Matsepe- Casaburri, I F; Matsomela, M J J ; Maunye, M M; Mayatula, S M; Mbombo, N D; Mdladlose, M M; Mentor, M P; Mgabadeli, H C; Mkhize, Z S; Mkongi, B M; Mlangeni, A; Mnguni, B A; Mnyandu, B J; Moatshe, M S; Mofokeng, T R; Mogale, O M; Mogase, I D; Mohamed, I J; Mohlaloga, M R; Mokoena, A D; Molefe, C T; Moleketi, P J ; Moloto, K A; Monareng, O E; Montsitsi, S D; Moonsamy, K; Morutoa, M R; Morwamoche, K W; Mosala, B G; Moss, L N; Moss, M I; Mpahlwa, M B ; Mpontshane, A M; Mshudulu, S A; Mthembu, B; Mthethwa, E N; Mtshali, E; Mzondeki, M J G; Nawa, Z N; Ndzanga, R A; Nefolovhodwe, P J; Nel, A C; Nene, M J ; Nene, N M; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngaleka, E; Ngcengwane, N D; Ngcobo, B T; Ngcobo, E N N; Ngcobo, N W; Ngculu, L V J; Ngele, N J; Ngwenya, M L; Ngwenya, W; Nhlengethwa, D G; Njikelana, S J ; Nkabinde, N C; Nkuna, C; Nqakula, C; Ntuli, B M; Ntuli, M M; Ntuli, R S; Ntuli, S B; Nwamitwa-Shilubana, T L P; Nxumalo, M D; Nxumalo, S N ; Nyambi, A J; Nzimande, L P M; Olifant, D A A; Oliphant, G G; Oosthuizen, G C; Padayachie, R L; Pahad, E G; Pandor, G N M; Phungula, J P; Pieterse, R D; Pule, B E; Rabinowitz, R; Radebe, B A; Radebe, J T; Rajbally, S ; Ramgobin, M; Ramodibe, D M; Ramotsamai, C P M; Rasmeni, S M; Reid, L R R; Rwexana, S P; Saloojee, E; Schippers, J; Schneemann, G D; Schoeman, E A; Seadimo, M D; Seaton, S A; Sefularo, M; Selau, J G; Shabangu, S; Sibande, M P; Sibanyoni, J B; Siboza, S ; Sibuyana, M W; Sigcau , S N; Sisulu, L N; Skhosana, W M; Skosana, M B; Skweyiya, Z S T; Smith, V G; Solomon, G; Sonjica, B P; Sonto, M R; Sosibo, J E; Sotyu, M M; Surty, M E ; Swanson-Jacobs, J; Thabethe, E; Tobias, T V; Tolo, L J; Tshabalala-Msimang, M E; Tshivhase, T J; Tshwete, P; Vadi, I; Van den Heever, R P Z; Van der Merwe, J H; Van der Merwe, S C ; Van Schalkwyk, M C J; Van Wyk, A; Vos, S C; Vundisa, S S; Wang, Y; Xolo, E T; Yengeni, L E; Zita, L; Zulu, B Z.

NOES - 41: Blanch, J P I; Boinamo, G G; Cupido, H B ; Delport, J T; Doman, W P; Dreyer, A M; Dudley, C; Ellis, M J; Farrow, S B; Gibson, D H M; Groenewald, P J; Joubert, L K; Julies, I F; Kalyan, S V; Kohler- Barnard, D; Labuschagne, L B; Lee, T D; Leon , A J; Lowe, C M; Marais, S J F; Masango, S J; Meshoe, K R J; Minnie, K J ; Morgan, G R; Nel, A H; Opperman , S E; Sayedali-Shah, M R; Schmidt, H C; Selfe, J; Seremane, W J; Simmons, S; Smuts, M; Spies, W D; Stephens, J J M; Steyn, A C; Swart, P S; Swart, S N; Swathe, M M; Trent, E W; Van Der Walt, D; Van Dyk, S M.

Chairperson, I was wondering whether the Rules that have normally been practised in the House have changed. I noted a hon member walking in after the bells had been rung and the doors closed. I wondered whether there is now a change in the House.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mrs C-S BOTHA): No Madam, there are no changes with respect to that. I am sorry I did not notice that and I don't think anybody at the Table did either. But the hon member should be aware of the Rules and has breached the Rules of the House. The particular member's vote will not be recognised and the voting session is now closed. Vote accordingly agreed to.

Vote 2O - Defence - put.

Declarations of vote:

Madam Chair, the National Defence Force has admittedly improved with regard to certain issues; one of them being the improvement of the SANDF and the recent and effective deployment of it during the public service strike in order to maintain peace and order.

However, the department's approach to ensure an increase in the funding of the presidential and VIP air transport fleet and operations at the cost - and I repeat - at the cost of the SA Air Force, is unacceptable. A continued reduction in flying hours and the reduction in the number of pilots, in particular fighter pilots, leaves much to be desired. Our Constitution requires an effective and efficient national defence force, which includes the air force.

Die departement beskik nie oor die vermo om die voortdurende dreigende probleme rondom onderhandelinge met die weermagunies te besleg nie. Daar is ook die voortdurende gesloer met die aanstelling van 'n bekwame bevelvoerende generaal vir die Suid-Afrikaanse Nasionale Weermag. Voorts is daar `n gebrek aan discipline, soos duidelik blyk uit die aard en omvang van optrede jeens ...

Die Ouditeur-generaal gee die departement ook gereelde voorbehoude oudits en daar word versuim om `n aanvaarbare uitdienstredingspakket, vrywilliglik of andersins, daar te stel wat gebaseer word op kundigheidsvlakke al dan nie van diegene wie die diens wil verlaat. Dit laat die DA met geen opsie as om die begroting te opponeer. Ek dank u. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[The department does not have the capacity to solve the ongoing threatening problems around negotiations with the defence force unions. There is also the ongoing delay in appointing a competent general officer commanding for the SA National Defence Force. Furthermore, there is a lack of discipline, as is evident from the nature and extent of the behaviour towards ... The Auditor General also regularly gives the department qualified audits and no effort has been made to put an acceptable retirement package, voluntarily or otherwise, in place that is based on levels of expertise or lack thereof of those who wish to leave the service. This leaves the DA with no other option but to oppose the budget. I thank you.]

Chairperson, there is a huge gap between the department's commitments in terms of the Constitution, foreign policy and military doctrine and the resources allocated to building and maintaining its capacity to meet them.

At present we spend just 1,3% of GDP on defence, almost the lowest ratio of most countries that have a significant defence force and are required to perform roles beyond territorial defence. For example, Denmark spends far less than we do, yet has nearly one tenth of our population and far greater regional and continental commitments. Clearly, a political decision needs to be made; either the expectations of what the defence force must do need to be scaled down severely or it must get more money.

Across the board the department is faced with the challenge of retaining persons with scarce skills. Our specialised defence force members must be fairly and reasonably compensated to prevent them being lured to the private sector. It is regrettable therefore that this department did not receive a greater increase in its budget in view of its commitments. Notwithstanding the above, however, the ACDP will support the Budget Vote. I thank you.

Voorsitter, as 'n mens kyk na die verslae oor die gevegsgereedheid van die weermag, dan is dit eintlik skokkend om te verneem dat daar partykeer nie eens genoeg geld is om genoeg ammunisie te voorsien aan ons voetsoldate nie.

Die regering, Voorsitter, het biljoene rande gaan spandeer aan nuwe wapenaankope. Dit is die belastingbetaler se geld. Dit is 'n verantwoordelikheid van die regerende party en van hierdie Huis om te verseker dat die belastingbetaler waarde vir sy geld kry.

Nou kom ons met 'n transformasiebeleid en regstellende aksie wat volgens die VF Plus die oorsaak is dat daar nie genoeg mannekrag is nie en dit is hoekom kundiges die SANW verlaat. Dit moet gestaak word. Alvorens ons nie na hierdie pertinente aspek kyk nie, Voorsitter, sal die VF Plus nie die begroting kan ondersteun nie en gaan ons nie die beste van die bestes kry vir ons nasionale weermag nie. Dankie. (Translation of Afrikaans declaration of vote follows.)

[Mr P J GROENEWALD: Chairperson, if one looks at the reports regarding the combat readiness of the defence force then it is actually shocking to note that sometimes there aren't even sufficient funds to supply enough ammunition to our foot soldiers.

Chairperson, the government spent billions of rand on the acquisition of new weapons. This is the taxpayer's money. It is a responsibility of the ruling party and of this House to ensure that the taxpayer gets value for money.

Now we have a transformation policy and affirmation action, which, according to the FF Plus, is the reason why there isn't enough manpower and that is why experts are leaving the SANDF. This must cease. Until we look at these pertinent issues, Chairperson, the FF Plus will not be able to support this budget and we will not get the best of the best for our national defence force. Thank you.]

Chairperson, the ANC hereby declares that the Department of Defence is on track in connection with building peace and security on the continent, and also building the country's skills base through the Managing the Service Delivery System programme. Therefore, we want to declare that it is also important to allocate more funds through Jipsa to ensure that the momentum on the MSDS is sustained and the UN should also fund the AU for the hybrid force that has recently been deployed to Sudan.

We also declare a need to allocate more funds through the Special Defence Account to allow the department to furnish its fleet from the strategic defence packages by purchasing a landing ship. We further request the assistance of the National Treasury to ensure the speedy implementation of the financial management system and that they should continue to revamp our battalions, including the 21st battalion, to maintain the high morale of our troops.

We also noted the qualifications that the Auditor-General has presented against the department; however, it is important to set the record straight, that indeed the department has improved and that this fact should be appreciated and we as the portfolio committee will continue to support the department in its endeavours.

It is simplistic for the DA to raise the issue of the VIP fleet as this matter is sub judice. The hon member from the ACDP again drew a comparison between South Africa and Denmark on the issue of our expenditure, yet he knows that the population size of the two countries is not the same, including their economies. So, it is premature for you to draw such comparisons.

We had an intensive discussion during the budget ... [Time expired.] The ANC supports this budget.

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Freedom Front Plus and Independent Democrats dissenting).

Vote No 21 - Independent Complaints Directorate - put.

Declarations of vote:

Chairperson, the ACDP will not support Budget Vote 21. Members of the Portfolio Committee on Safety and Security have expressed their disapproval of the unjustifiably high number of staff members in the ICD's national office.

Three provinces, namely the Northern Cape, Free State and Mpumalanga, according to the list of employees that has been given to the members, do not have a single person performing secretarial or clerical duties, while the national office has more than 25 employees performing secretarial and clerical duties. As a result provinces are inhibited in performing their duties and the ACDP will therefore not support this budget, because they had plenty of time to rectify this mistake.

Chairperson, the ANC supports this Budget Vote and we believe that the appointment of the new permanent executive director for the ICD will take forward the recommendations of the Portfolio Committee on Safety and Security, and plead with the National Treasury to give more funds to the ICD in order for them to establish satellite offices in all provinces and address the issue of a shortage of staff, especially the investigators in all provinces.

We are aware, Moruti, as much as you are aware, that the department is, of course, addressing the matter with the Minister, but I agree with you. I think we need to be a little bit quicker in that regard, because it is a concern lately. Thank you very much.

Vote agreed to (African Christian Democratic Party dissenting).

Vote No 22 - Justice and Constitutional Development - put.

Declarations of vote:

Chairperson, the DA would have loved nothing more than to support this Budget Vote, because we consider justice a cornerstone of democracy. In a government system based on the doctrine of the separation of powers, the justice portfolio is one of the most important portfolios in government. Yet, notwithstanding this, the Minister keeps underperforming.

Dit is nie net ek of die DA wat so dink nie, ook die Mail & Guardian dink so. [Tussenwerpsels.] In die jongste rapport van die koerant - julle moet dit lees! - het die Minister 'n G gekry. [Tussenwerpsels.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[It is not just I or the DA who think like this, the Mail & Guardian thinks like this as well. [Interjections.] In the latest report card of the newspaper - you must read it! - the Minister received a G. [Interjections]]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Order, please. Order!

Dit is die laagste simbool van die hele Kabinet. Suid- Afrika verdien sekerlik beter van sy Minister van Justisie en van haar adjunk. Ook in die Balie is die opinie van die Minister nie baie hoog nie. 'n Senior advokaat het onlangs die volgende te s gehad: (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[Mr L K JOUBERT: This is the lowest symbol in the whole Cabinet. South Africa certainly deserves better from its Minister of Justice and her deputy. Even in the Bar Council the opinion of the Minister is not very high. A senior advocate recently said the following:]

The wheels of policy formation and implementation in the area of justice and constitutional development turn so slowly that, like the wheels of a car taking off in a movie, they appear at times to turn in reverse and at times the proposed policies appear to be taking us to a past we thought we had left behind.

The Minister is not here today, but we wanted to give her a message by objecting to this Budget Vote and that message is: Minister, get your act together. You owe it to South Africa. Thank you.

Chairperson, I wish to refer to the Budget Vote debate on Justice that took place on 29 May in which we raised, once again, the question of 383 applications for presidential pardons. This is as a result of what the Human Rights Commission found, namely that the Minister had violated the human rights of those people.

But the Deputy Minister said in the debate - now the Human Rights Commission has never taken a decision on this matter and has not placed a single report before the Minister - "all we have is a one-and-a-half-page letter from a junior official in that unit".

Madam Chairperson, this is absolute nonsense and it is not true. The truth is totally different. The Human Rights Commission has confirmed to us once again today that the decision was in fact a decision by the commission. And that, secondly, where the Deputy Minister says there was only a one-pager from a junior, I have numerous letters in my hand that Jodi Kollapen, the chairperson, has written to the Minister. This means that the hon Deputy Minister has ...

[Inaudible.]

Wie s ek lieg? [Gelag.] Hoor u wat s hy, mevrou? [Gelag.]

Die HUISVOORSITTER (Me C-S Botha): Agb Adjunkminister, sal u asseblief terugtrek wat u ges het?

Ek sal dit terugtrek as hy dit ook terugtrek. Hy het net ges ons lieg, toe s ek vir hom hy lieg. So, as hy dit terugtrek, trek ek dit onvoorwaardelik terug.

Die HUISVOORSITTER (Me C-S Botha): Nee, ek het nie gevra vir 'n voorwaardelike terugtrekking nie. Ek het net gevra dat u dit terugtrek. Baie dankie. Sal u asseblief voortgaan?

Voorsitter, feit is, die Adjunkminister het die Parlement mislei deur te s die Menseregtekommissie het nie die bevinding gemaak nie en daar is nie briewe geskryf nie. Die bewyse is daar. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[Mr J H VAN DER MERWE: Who says I am lying? [Laughter.] Did you hear what he said, Madam?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Hon Deputy Minister, will you please withdraw what you just said?

I shall withdraw it if he withdraws what he said. He only said that we were lying and then I said to him that he was lying. So, if he withdraws what he said, I will unconditionally withdraw what I said.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): No, I did not ask for a conditional withdrawal. I just asked you to withdraw what you said. Thank you. Will you continue please?

Chairperson, the fact is, the Deputy Minister has misled Parliament by saying the Human Rights Commission did not make that finding and no letters were written. The proof is there.]

In addition, the Human Rights Commission is so upset about the Minister's violation of human rights that the Human Rights Commission informed me today that they are considering intervening in the High Court case against the Minister as amicus curiae. It appears therefore that the hon Deputy Minister has misled the House. He should apologise and he should withdraw. Then the hon De Lange ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Hon Van der Merwe, I regret your time has expired.

My time has not expired. He wasted my time and you've not taken that into consideration. [Interjections.] I need another five seconds. [Interjections.] There was a song many years ago "Give Me Five Minutes More"! [Interjections.] May I conclude?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): I regret, this is not the opera.

I just want to say that the Minister needs ...

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): No, hon Van der Merwe.

You need to learn a lot about humility!

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Hon Van der Merwe, please take your seat now!

Madam Chair, he just said that the hon Deputy Minister is a "poephol". Is that acceptable? [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Hon Van der Merwe, is the accusation correct?

The accusation is correct. He is one. [Laughter.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Hon Van der Merwe, you may be funny, but you're doing this House no justice. Please withdraw, without stating what you said.

I withdraw. [Laughter.]

Chairperson, I'll make no reflections on any Ministers, thank you. A judicial system is only as good as those who administer the law. Whilst there are very many dedicated prosecutors and magistrates, the prolonged process of dealing with crime is aggravated by a criminal justice system that is struggling to cope. Chairperson, I can't hear myself.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Hon members, please!

Courts are understaffed and court rolls clogged to such an extent that cases are continuously postponed with a knock-on effect on the number of awaiting-trial prisoners kept in deplorable conditions of overcrowding.

The problems in the various links in the criminal justice system, from the arrest by an investigating police officer to the prosecutor to the correctional services officer to the interpreter, judicial officer and defence lawyer, remain a challenge. A delay in any one of these links severely affects the whole chain and adds to the backlog of cases.

The ACDP supports an integrated approach whereby the four key departments: Safety and Security, Justice, Correctional Services and Welfare, take responsibility for the success of the systems by means of binding interdepartmental protocols. Such protocols will serve to enhance and strengthen the existing integrated justice system court centres. Notwithstanding these many and various challenges, however, the ACDP will support this Budget Vote. I thank you.

Chairperson, I must say I am rather taken aback. The hon Joubert seems to use every opportunity he can to attack the Minister personally and I must say that it comes as an enormous surprise to me, bearing in mind that we've had very substantive discussions and inputs during the budget hearings.

I will have no fear of embarrassing the Minister today when I say the following - because she's not here. The Minister is an extremely competent and consensus-seeking person and you interpret this latter quality as a weakness at your own peril. Frankly, I don't think that your personal attacks make her lose any sleep, Mr Joubert. I think also that what this does is expose very blatantly your small-mindedness. [Interjections.]

As to Mr Van der Merwe who keeps flogging this dead horse even after it was dealt a fatal blow in the budget debate, it is a well-known fact, and everybody knows it here, that the IFP had called on their rank and file not to participate in the TRC hearings. As the rest of us have moved on into the future, there is Mr Van der Merwe flogging this horse, tabling cream cakes and going to court and blaming the Minister for Justice and Constitutional Development for all of his sins that he should really bear the responsibly for. I think it is an utter, utter shame. The department this year receives an additional R473 million to deal with some of the problems that the ACDP raised and the ANC will definitely support this Budget Vote.

Chairperson, I am feeling very offended by Koos calling the Minister names. It must stop now. [Interjections.] It must stop! [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Hon members, before I take anything further, I would ask you to take your seats, not to use that word again at all, whether in response or originally, and to treat this House with the respect it deserves. Are there any further objections?

Madam Chairperson, I beg leave to tender an explanation, which I think I am entitled to in terms of the Standing Rules, resulting from the words spoken by the Chairperson of the Justice Committee.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): I will confer with the Table whether there is any such Rule.

Hon Van der Merwe, although I think you are entitled to do so, I would prefer in this instance that you come and discuss it with me later on and if we need to take it any further in the House tomorrow we shall do so. Thank you very much.

I just wanted to say that I never asked anybody not to go to the TRC. In fact, I defended people.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Hon Van der Merwe, you are out of order.

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance and United Party of South Africa dissenting).

Vote No 23 - Safety and Security - put.

Declarations of vote:

Chairperson, while there are signs that government is beginning to retreat from its denialist stance with regard to crime and the impact it's having on the citizens of this country, the reality today is that crime is the major factor behind immigration, while equally creating a negative impact on tourism and deterring foreign investment.

With 50 or more citizens murdered here daily, coupled with the increase in violence in relation to crimes, the focus must be on how it is that the Ministry of Safety and Security spends its considerable budget, yet fails absolutely to fulfil its mandate.

The Saps has failed to produce anything new in relation to fighting crime and corruption in this country and with 529 police members suspended for corruption this past year, the calibre of our police and the quality of their training must be questioned and one must also question how it is the Minister intends to supply training to the thousands of new recruits he intends to pull in before 2010. Also to be considered is the seemingly bottomless pit down which Saps pours millions - that being the implementation of the Firearms Act - with citizens waiting for years for a licence or being refused outright.

Visible policing isn't visible, despite the directive from the President. Station after station claims that it has a shortage of equipment. Bulletproof vests for women, for example, are always on order. The forensic laboratories are not functional in any sense of the word with, for example, eight out of ten motorists caught for drunk driving in Buffalo City, never having to go to court, because the blood test results just don't come back in time. The Ministry states that there is a backlog of 6 086 samples in our laboratories and today claims are emerging that these figures are grossly understated.

Finally, with the political appointment of the shady National Commissioner, coupled with the seemingly endless Scorpions investigation of him and the Minister's regular absences from the country, the management structures are weak from the top down. Voting for the Budget Vote would suggest that the DA supports the Ministry's intention to spend more on much of the same, though there are no indications that it would do otherwise. Therefore, of course, we vote against the budget.

Madam Chairperson, I assume that the VIP drivers and bodyguards fall under this particular Minister and I want to bring to his attention that it now happens regularly that you see them driving at high speed, overtaking on the left, for instance - and I have seen this personally - between Parliament and the airport, cutting in over solid white and yellow lines, pushing people out of the way, driving in excess of 180 km per hour, endangering the lives of citizens.

I'm sure the Minister will not allow that, but I ask him to look into that and to assure those drivers that they are not above the law. They are not above the law and if they transgress, if they commit traffic offences, they should be prosecuted.

Chairperson, the ACDP will be supporting the Safety and Security Budget Vote, not because we are satisfied with the performance of our police, but because we want to see their salaries and conditions of service greatly improved.

The level of crime in our country is still too high and the investigation capacity of many of our detectives leaves much to be desired. We want to appeal to the hon Minister to ensure that the police keep members of the public informed about progress made in the investigation of cases they have reported.

Promises made to victims of crime must be kept so that trust and confidence in the police service can remain high. We will support the Vote.

Chairperson, in the hon Minister's response in the Budget Vote he referred to me and he said:

We will not find each other. Not today, not tomorrow, not ever.

I want to agree with the hon Minister, we will not find each other as long as the hon Minister is part of the executive surrounded by bodyguards and I am part of the public who don't have the privilege of bodyguards. [Interjections.]

Agb Minister, of u dit nou wil weet of nie, misdaad daar buite raak ons mense. Die afgelope drie jaar was meer as 2,5 miljoen mense slagoffers van geweldsmisdaad, maar die agb Minister s die toekoms, wat misdaad in Suid- Afrika betref, lyk rooskleurig. Agb Minister, u is eintlik in 'n toestand van ontkenning en solank as wat u in daardie fase is, sal u nie misdaad behoorlik kan bekamp nie. Daarom sal die VF Plus dan ook nie hierdie begroting ondersteun nie. Dankie. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.) [Hon Minister, whether you want to know it or not, the crime out there is affecting our people. In the past three years more than 2,5 million people were victims of violent crime, but the hon Minister says that the future, as far as crime in South Africa is concerned, looks rosy. Hon Minister, you are actually in a state of denial and as long as you remain in that phase, you will not be able to combat crime properly. That is why the FF Plus will also not be supporting this budget. Thank you.]

Chairperson, I don't want to call anybody anything, not even a "poephol", but I'm not even going to bother myself with a basket full of nothing, especially nothing new.

I would like to urge the members of the committee to stop demoralising the morale of the police and make the criminals feel great by always being so negative towards everything that the police and the Minister are doing. Say something positive for a change! Something about the running of police stations like Galeshewe in Kimberley. You were in Kimberley, you saw what the police were doing, you said nothing. You were in Bloemfontein in Bloemspruit, you saw the morale of the police under difficult conditions, you said nothing. You were in Welkom Police Station at ten o'clock in the evening, you saw what the police were doing, you said nothing.

The hon member Kohler-Barnard reported to the Chairperson about the non- cooperation of the police commissioner in Pinetown Police Station. The chairperson arranged for a delegation of members of the portfolio committee to go to that station. And what happened? She was not to be found. You were never there. [Interjections.] The portfolio committee went to that station. You did not go to that station to address some of the issues that you are raising here.

The ANC supports this budget. Thank you. [Interjections.]

Division demanded.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Hon member, a cell phone has certainly, as far as I've seen, never been used so openly in this Chamber. [Interjections.] Please, cell phones are not used in here. Switch it off. Thank you. All members in their allocated seats, voting will now commence.

Again, Tlokwe Maserumule, once again.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): I'm so sorry. Are there any other members who need to indicate that their vote hasn't been recorded?

I'd like to think this has nothing to do with you, Chairperson. Again.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): No, I can assure you, it hasn't. [Laughter.]

I know. Again, on the "yes" vote, please.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Your vote will be recorded. Anybody else?

Koos van der Merwe. [Laughter.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Thank you. Order, please. The voting session is now closed.

Siyambongela uKoos van der Merwe. [We congratulate Koos van der Merwe.] [Laughter.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Siyabonga. [Thank you.]

The House divided:

AYES - 247: Abram, S; Ainslie, A R; Anthony, T G; Asiya, S E; Balfour, B M N; Baloyi, M R; Bapela, K O; Bekker, H J; Bhamjee, Y S; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, M J; Bhoola, R B; Bici, J; Biyela, B P ; Bloem, D V; Bogopane- Zulu, H I; Bonhomme, T J; Botha, N G W; Burgess, C V; Buthelezi, M G; Cele, M A; Chalmers, J; Chang, E S; Chikunga, L S; Chohan-Khota, F I; Combrinck, J J; Cronin, J P; Cupido, H B ; Cwele, S C; Dambuza, B N; Daniels, P; Davies, R H; De Lange, J H; Diale, L N; Dikgacwi, M M; Direko, I W; Dithebe, S L; Ditshetelo, P H K; Dlali, D M; Doidge, G Q M; Du Toit, D C ; Dudley, C; Fihla, N B; Frolick, C T; Gabanakgosi, P S; Gaum, A H; Gcwabaza, N E ; Gerber, P A; Gololo, C L; Gomomo, P J; Gore, V C; Greyling, C H F; Greyling, L W; Gumede, D M; Gxowa, N B; Hajaig, F; Hanekom, D A ; Hangana, N E; Hendricks, L B; Hendrickse, P A C; Jeffery, J H; Johnson, M; Jordan, Z P; Kalako, M U; Kasienyane, O R; Kasrils, R; Kekana, C D; Kganyago, N M; Khoarai, L P; Kholwane, S E; Khumalo, K K; Khumalo, K M; Khunou, N P; Komphela, B M; Kondlo, N C; Kotwal, Z; Landers, L T; Lebenya, P; Lekgetho, G; Lishivha, T E; Louw, S K; Ludwabe, C I; Luthuli, A N; Maake, J J; Mabe, L L; Mabena, D C; Mabudafhasi, T R; Madasa, Z L; Madella, A F; Madikiza, G T; Madlala-Routledge, N C ; Maduma, L D; Madumise, M M; Magwanishe, G B; Mahlaba, T L; Mahlangu- Nkabinde, G L; Mahote, S; Maine, M S; Maja, S J; Makasi, X C; Makgate, M W; Malahlela, M J; Maluleka, H P; Maluleke, D K; Manana, M N S; Manuel, T A; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Mars, I; Martins, B A D; Maserumule, F T; Mashangoane, P R; Mashigo, R J; Mashile, B L; Masutha, T M; Mathibela, N F; Matlala, M H; Matsemela, M L; Matsepe-Casaburri, I F; Matsomela, M J J ; Maunye, M M; Mayatula, S M; Mbombo, N D; Mdladlose, M M; Mentor, M P; Meshoe, K R J; Mgabadeli, H C; Mkhize, Z S; Mlangeni, A; Mnguni, B A; Mnyandu, B J; Moatshe, M S; Modisenyane, L J; Mofokeng, T R; Mogale, O M; Mogase, I D; Mohamed, I J; Mohlaloga, M R; Mokoena, A D; Molefe, C T; Moleketi, P J ; Moloto, K A; Monareng, O E; Montsitsi, S D; Moonsamy, K; Morutoa, M R; Morwamoche, K W; Mosala, B G; Moss, L N; Moss, M I; Mpahlwa, M B ; Mpontshane, A M; Mshudulu, S A; Mthembu, B; Mthethwa, E N; Mtshali, E; Mzondeki, M J G; Nawa, Z N; Ndzanga, R A; Nel, A C; Nene, M J ; Nene, N M; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngaleka, E; Ngcengwane, N D; Ngcobo, B T; Ngcobo, E N N; Ngcobo, N W; Ngculu, L V J; Ngele, N J; Ngwenya, M L; Nhlengethwa, D G; Njikelana, S J ; Nkabinde, N C; Nkuna, C; Nqakula, C; Ntuli, B M; Ntuli, M M; Ntuli, R S; Nwamitwa-Shilubana, T L P; Nxumalo, M D; Nxumalo, S N ; Nyambi, A J; Nzimande, L P M; Olifant, D A A; Oliphant, G G; Oosthuizen, G C; Padayachie, R L; Pahad, E G; Pandor, G N M; Phadagi, M G; Phungula, J P; Pieterse, R D; Pule, B E; Rabinowitz, R; Radebe, B A; Rajbally, S ; Ramgobin, M; Ramodibe, D M; Ramotsamai, C P M; Rasmeni, S M; Reid, L R R; Roopnarain, U; Rwexana, S P; Saloojee, E; Schippers, J; Schneemann, G D; Schoeman, E A; Seadimo, M D; Seaton, S A; Sefularo, M; Selau, J G; Shabangu, S; Sibande, M P; Sibanyoni, J B; Siboza, S ; Sibuyana, M W; Sigcau , S N; Sisulu, L N; Skhosana, W M; Skosana, M B; Skweyiya, Z S T; Smith, V G; Solomon, G; Sonjica, B P; Sonto, M R; Sosibo, J E; Sotyu, M M; Surty, M E ; Swanson-Jacobs, J; Thabethe, E; Tobias, T V; Tolo, L J; Tshabalala-Msimang, M E; Tshivhase, T J; Tshwete, P; Vadi, I; Van den Heever, R P Z; Van der Merwe, J H; Van der Merwe, S C ; Van Schalkwyk, M C J; Van Wyk, A; Vos, S C; Woods, G G; Xolo, E T; Yengeni, L E; Zita, L; Zulu, B Z.

NOES - 38: Blanch, J P I; Boinamo, G G; Delport, J T; Doman, W P; Dreyer, A M; Ellis, M J; Farrow, S B; Gibson, D H M; Groenewald, P J; Joubert, L K; Julies, I F; Kalyan, S V; Kohler-Barnard, D; Labuschagne, L B; Lee, T D; Leon , A J; Lowe, C M; Marais, S J F; Masango, S J; Minnie, K J ; Morgan, G R; Mulder, P W A; Nel, A H; Opperman , S E; Sayedali- Shah, M R; Schmidt, H C; Selfe, J; Seremane, W J; Simmons, S; Smuts, M; Spies, W D; Stephens, J J M; Steyn, A C; Swart, P S; Swathe, M M; Trent, E W; Van Der Walt, D; Van Dyk, S M.

Vote accordingly agreed to.

Madam Chair, may I address you before you put the next Vote.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): On what point, hon Minister?

On the decorum of the House. The hon Van der Merwe used a word in relation to the Deputy Minister for Justice and Constitutional Development which has been repeated, subsequently, by other members of the House. I think we do the House and the presence of the National Assembly a very grave disservice if we allow this to continue and I'm rising to plead that ... [Interjections.] ... I'm talking about all members. Would you kindly allow me to speak? Words such as this one shouldn't find a place in a House like this, and I plead that we desist from using them. Thank you. [Applause.]

Madam Chairperson, I just want to say that I was enraged when I used the word. I withdraw it and I apologise.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Thank you very much. I hope that now closes the debate on this issue for ever and ever.

Chair, I concur with what the hon Minister of Finance has said and I suggest that we put this matter on the agenda of the Chief Whips' Forum, which is scheduled to meet tomorrow. It's not the first time that we have discussed the issue of the decorum of the House, but I think today's proceedings certainly necessitate that we reopen that matter. Thanks.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms S-C Botha): Hon Nel, I wish you had said that some time ago and not waited for the Minister to lead you. [Interjections.]

Vote No 24 - Agriculture - put.

Declaration of vote:

Chairperson, the UDM will support the Budget Vote, but would like to express concern about issues relating to the Land Bank that have recently been exposed in a meeting of the Standing Committee on Public Accounts, Scopa.

The Land Bank is supposed to be a development finance institution, yet it has shifted the goalposts and has since become more of a commercial than a development bank. It is critical that the Land Bank is focused upon its development mandate, since agriculture is such a core element in ensuring that the land reform programme succeeds in a meaningful way.

There is a huge need to support the growth of emerging farmers and agribusiness, and this cannot be achieved without development-focused financing. Thank you.

Vote agreed to.

Vote No 25 - Communications - put.

Declaration of vote:

Chairperson, common good is undoubtedly best served by a free flow of information. It is a vital function and indeed a duty of the press and other media to make available information and analyses about every aspect of public, political, social and economic activity.

The media has played a crucial role in exposing crime, corruption, mismanagement and nepotism, both in the public and the private spheres. In view of this, the obvious question is: How did the Films and Publications Amendment Bill pass through Cabinet considering its serious constitutional flaws, particularly in relation to Icasa's jurisdiction?

Clearly, the removal of the exemption for broadcasters infringes upon the constitutional domain of Icasa. Icasa is the regulator for broadcasting, and not the Films and Publications Board. At the very least though, following the intervention of Parliament, Icasa's unfettered constitutional jurisdiction over broadcasters has been reinstated.

We, as the ACDP, trust that the NCOP will consider the ACDP's proposal to reinstate total exemptions for the print media and broadcasters, with the media being subject to criminal sanctions related to child pornography. Notwithstanding the above, the ACDP will support this Budget Vote. I thank you.

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance dissenting).

Vote No 26 - Environmental Affairs and Tourism - put and agreed to. Vote No 27 - Housing - put.

Declarations of vote:

Madam Chairperson, the DA believes that the Housing Budget to date has not been spent efficiently, effectively and economically. That should usually be reason enough not to support the Budget Vote. However, the DA recognises and acknowledges that a great many of our citizens, for various reasons, mostly not of their own making, are unable to provide basic shelter for themselves or their families.

While we have doubts regarding the claim by the department that they have delivered 2,4 million houses to date, due to the many blocked and incomplete projects identified, we nevertheless recognise that without state support the legitimate families who have benefited would otherwise still be living on the streets.

We also identify with the Minister's vision of moving away from houses in the veld to the creation of sustainable communities. We further take note of the Minister's stated intention to learn from her department's mistakes, notably with regard to the N2 Gateway pilot project, the acknowledgement of the department's internal maladministration, the Presidential proclamation of the Special Investigating Unit to combat widespread corruption within the housing sector and the Minister's commitment to deal with officials who have unfairly benefited from the housing subsidy scheme.

The DA therefore supports the Housing Budget and pledges to support and criticise the department where necessary in order to ensure the efficient, effective and economical delivery of a sustainable product to the rightful beneficiaries in this country. I thank you, Chairperson.

Madam Chairperson, the ACDP would like to speak in support of this budget and acknowledge that the provision of affordable housing for the poor has been and will remain a huge challenge to any government, especially in a climate of rapid urbanisation. Therefore, the need for a national housing database is urgent and we welcome the announcement by the hon Minister on this matter during the Budget Vote debate.

People must be prevented from being able to access the housing subsidy system more than once or in more than one province. Having a national database for housing will be a way of addressing the backlog much faster and preventing duplication of housing.

Chairperson, the Housing Budget Vote, which we are about to vote on, provides additional resources that will enable the housing delivery programme to increase the number of houses to be constructed in the 2007-08 financial year. We in the ANC wish to welcome the increase in the allocation to Vote 27, which is up from R7,3 billion in 2006-07 financial year to the current R8,8 billion in this financial year as well as the increase in the housing subsidy to R38 984. It will be important that, as we continue to see increases in the housing share of the budget, the department continues to strengthen both its monitoring and evaluation capacity.

The newly developed norms and standards, which came into effect on 1 April 2007, are welcome. This means that breaking new ground houses will be quality houses of 40 square meters in size and consist of two bedrooms, a separate bathroom with toilet, shower and hand basin, a separate kitchen area with a kitchen sink. We want to express our support for both the budget and the programme of work, which was announced by the Minister in her budget speech a few weeks ago.

I want to conclude that it is correct that this ANC-led government has built 2,4 million houses and will continue to do so. I would like to suggest that the hon Steyn and his party should be ashamed of themselves for having openly admitted last year that we only built one house. Thank you. [Laughter.] [Applause.]

Vote agreed to.

Vote No 28 - Land Affairs - put. Declarations of vote:

Chairperson, we did not support the Budget Vote for Land Affairs last year, because it was the only way we could have demonstrated our opposition to the underspending of the budget, the ineffective administration and the irresponsible statements by senior officials of the department.

This year again, in contrast to what the Minister has said in her Budget Speech, R1,2 billion was taken off her budget in the adjustment budget in November 2006 because the department could not spend it.

Why then support the budget for Land Affairs this year? This is a valid question. We considered the following issues: Firstly, the acceptance of a proactive land acquisition strategy which we think is the right way to go; secondly, the creation of a Special Purpose Vehicle, an agency which is targeted to speed up sustainable land reform; thirdly, positive sentiments flowing from the Presidential Agricultural Workshop; and fourthly, the acceptance by the Minister of the goodwill of landowners and their willingness to help.

In the light of these positive events and plans, we will support the Budget Vote on Land Affairs and we will diligently monitor the progress made to see if our support is in vain or not. Thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Madam Chair, we shall support the Budget Vote again, but we would like to declare our concern about the Land Restitution and Redistribution Programme. The pace of land reform has consistently been slower than was projected. The department faces a very ambitious target of redistribution of nearly 25 million hectares of white-owned agricultural land to black people by 2014.

The Constitution correctly protects the property rights of the current landowners where there is no historical claim against the land and large- scale expropriation would not only face time-consuming and expensive legal challenges but would also damage nation building.

It is therefore problematic that there continues to be uncertainty in the department about the actual size, location and arability of state-owned land. Thank you, Chairperson.

Agb Voorsitter, die agb Minister is baie lief daarvoor om die boere daarvan te beskuldig dat hulle as grondeienaars uit hulle pad gaan om grondhervorming in Suid-Afrika te benadeel en te vertraag. Ek het 'n amptelike vraag aan die agb Minister in hierdie Huis gevra oor die grondeise wat oor die afgelope drie finansile jare toegestaan is. Die agb Minister het my geantwoord en aangedui dat meer as 24 000 eise deur die departement uitbetaal is en amper R4 miljard is daarop gespandeer. Die agb Minister het ook ges dat nie een enkele eis teengestaan is nie. As dit die antwoord is van die agb Minister, dan mislei sy die publiek wanneer sy die indruk probeer skep dat dit die boere en die grondeienaars is wat grondhervorming wil vertraag. Sy moet kyk na haar eie departement se onbeholpenheid soms met sekere grondeise.

Die departement het belastinggeld gebruik om 'n veldtog teen boere te loods in Desembermaand en dit was 'n uiters groot belediging vir die boere. Anders as die DA, sal die VF Plus, net op grond van die feit dat u belastingbetalergeld gebruik om 'n advertensieveldtog te voer teen boere en hul integriteit daarmee aangetas het, nie hierdie begrotingspos ondersteun nie. (Translation of Afrikaans declaration of vote follows.)

[Mr P J GROENEWALD: Hon Chairperson, the hon Minister loves to accuse farmers that they, as landowners, are going out of their way to impair and delay land reform in South Africa. I posed an official question to the hon Minister in this House about the land claims which were sanctioned over the past three financial years. The hon Minister answered me and indicated that more than 24 000 claims had been paid out by the department and that almost R4 billion had been spent on that. The hon Minister also said that not a single claim had been opposed.

If this is the answer of the hon Minister, then she is misleading the public when she tries to create the impression that it is the farmers and landowners who want to delay land reform. She should look at her own department's ineptitude at times with certain land claims.

The department used taxpayers' money to launch a campaign against farmers in December and it was a very grave insult to farmers. Unlike the DA, the FF Plus will not support this Budget Vote, solely on the grounds that you used taxpayers' money to conduct an advertising campaign against farmers and thereby tarnished their integrity.]

Madam Chairperson, I'll only respond to committee members. I won't deal with people who are here representing farmers only, knowing that South Africa has all kinds of people and the entire population is represented by the majority of the people of South Africa, and not farmers only.

The 2007-08 budget of the Department of Land Affairs is a substantial testimony to the ANC-led government's commitment to land reform and social justice. The increase in the 2007 financial year showed that through the restitution programme we are indeed committed to restoring dignity to hundreds of thousands of beneficiaries who were victims of racial dispossession. We all know that it took you, in your era, one minute to dispossess, destroy and displace those people. It will take us some time to replace them on their own land.

We fully support the turnaround strategy that the Ministry is coming up with, like Operation Gijima and the Special Purpose Vehicle project to speed up the process of land redistribution. The ANC supports Budget Vote No 28. I thank you, Chairperson. [Applause.]

Vote agreed to (Freedom Front Plus dissenting).

Vote No 29 - Minerals and Energy - put.

Declarations of vote:

Madam Chair, the DA opposes this Budget Vote for, inter alia, the following reasons: Firstly, the department's and hence the government's approach to the supply of electricity has been, to say the least, atrocious. Currently the whole country is living with the threat of possible rolling power outages due to a dramatically reduced and below standard reserve margin related to the supply of electricity in this country.

Secondly, the Oilgate saga, where the ANC was paid R11 million via a parastatal, that is PetroSA, has still not been resolved satisfactorily. The Public Protector has indicated that he will consider the possible reopening of this matter. The ANC has to date still to respond by paying the money back to PetroSA.

The third point is the failure by government to take all necessary steps to curb the dramatic rise in the price of fuel by increasing the state levy and other costs which are added to the basic price of fuel instead of reducing the cost of fuel. Government, in fact, contributes to the rising costs by raising its only income from the sale of every litre of fuel, in particular petrol and diesel. The DA opposes the Budget Vote. I thank you.

Chairperson, hon Minister, the ID would really like to support the Minerals and Energy budget. Unfortunately, it is impossible to do so when we see year in and year out lip service being paid to renewable energy without any substantial financial resources being dedicated to it.

The time has come to signal a break with the past and to start to position South Africa as a future world leader in renewable energy. The possibilities are there but we need to start dedicating serious resources to this field.

It is also unacceptable to the ID that we now intend to meet our already small renewable energy target by relying mainly on biofuels. Biofuels can certainly form part of a future energy mix but that cannot replace the need for technology such as solar, wind, wave and a whole host of others.

Let us embrace the future and start positioning South Africa at the forefront of the renewable energy revolution. It is only then that the ID would support the budget. I thank you.

Chair, I think the first thing we need to do is to differentiate between ...

... umlotha nomquba nje namaqiniso. I-DA yazi kahle ukuthi kusukela ngo- 2004 silokhu simatasatasa sithuthukisa ingqalasizinda. [... the garbage, trash and the truth. The DA knows very well that since 2004, we are very busy developing the infrastructure.]

This year, during the debate on this Budget Vote, 10 substations were mentioned by the Minister.

Bayakwazi lokho. Kodwa-ke njengoba belapha bafuna nje ukubukwa ngabantu abalaphaya kwi-gallery. Maqondana ne-ID, lungu elihloniphekile, uyabona usungenza ngishintshe umqondo. Besithi sizokucelela ukuba ube yingxenye yaleli thimba okufanele liye eLatin America ukuze ukwazi ukukuqonda ukuthi udaba lwezamandla akwaziyo ukuvuseleleka seluhambe kangakanani nokuthi yiziphi izinselelo ezikhona. Manje usungenza ngifune ukuwutshinta ngempela umqondo.

Maqondana nalokho okushilo, inkinga ukuthi sinezinto eziningi esibhekene nazo eMnyangweni wonke. Asinaso isikhathi sokubhekana "neMail and Garbage". Musa ukulokhu uzositshela izindaba "zeMail and Garbage". [Ubuwelewele.] (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)

[And they know that. But now, because there are people sitting in the gallery, they start showing off. Well, with regard to the ID, you see, hon member, you make me change my mind. We had planned that we would plead for you to be part of the delegation that is going to Latin America so that you will understand how far they have gone with regard to biofuels and the challenges they are facing. And now you want me to change my mind.

Regarding what you said, the problem here is that we are dealing with a lot of things in the whole department. We don't have time for the "Mail and Garbage". So stop telling us the stories from the "Mail and Garbage". [Interjections.]]

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Independent Democrats and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).

Vote No 30 - Public Enterprises - put.

Declarations of vote:

Agb Voorsitter, in die afwesigheid van die Minister, kan die DA nie Begrotingspos 30 goedkeur nie omdat die Departement vir Openbare Ondernemings nie omsigtig met die belastinggeld omgaan nie en dit swak bestuur. Die department wend toegewese geld ook nie optimaal aan nie en begroot onverskillig om aan openbare behoeftes te voldoen.

Die department bestee te veel op senior aangestelde personeel teen ho salarisse. Vir elke twee junior poste word 'n senior pos geskep van direkteursvlak af en hor. Tog bestee die department R34 miljoen aan konsultante om sy werk vir hom te doen. Die department spog met vier adjunk- direkteurs-generaal uit 'n totale personeel van net 138.

Die department het R280 miljoen van verlede jaar se begroting nie bestee nie en het vir die huidige boekjaar R1,3 miljard te min begroot as gevolg van swak besigheidsplanne wat aan die Tesourie voorgel is vir die ontwikkeling van die korrelbed- modulre kernreaktor; juis noudat Suid- Afrika meer elektrisiteit benodig.

Die doel van die department is om met behulp van openbare ondernemings die ekonomie te help ontwikkel, mededinging te bevorder en dividende op belastinggeld terug te ploeg tot die Staatskas, maar in praktyk misluk die department en word die teenoorgestelde bereik.

Openbare ondernemings absorbeer 72% van die department se begroting. Ten spyte daarvan skop die SA Lugdiens, met sy 11 direkteure wat gesamentlik 136 direkteurskappe beklee, die boekjaar af met 'n verlies van R1,3 miljard, terwyl Denel met sy 13 direkteure, wat gesamentlik op 111 direksies dien, sukkel om finansieel te oorleef en vanjaar vir die soveelste keer byna R1 miljard uit die Staatskas ontvang vir oorlewing.

Gegewe ook Eskom, wat sukkel met swak onderhoud- en kapasiteitsprobleme, asook Transnet, wat nie voldoende in die vervoerbehoeftes van Suid-Afrika kan voorsien nie, asook Alexkor, wat teen 'n verlies funksioneer, kan die DA nie hierdie Begrotingspos goedkeur nie. Omdat die departement ook nie aan sy missie voldoen nie, vra die DA dat sy teenstem geboekstaaf word. Dankie. (Translation of Afrikaans declaration of vote follows.)

[Dr S M VAN DYK: Hon Chairperson, in the absence of the Minister the DA is unable to approve Budget Vote 30, because the Department of Public Enterprises does not handle taxpayers' money judiciously, but mismanages it. Furthermore, the department does not use allotted funds optimally and is careless in budgeting for public needs.

The department spends too much money on senior staff appointed at high salaries. For every two junior posts, a senior post is established at director's level or higher. Yet the department spends R34 million on consultants to do its work. The department boasts four deputy directors- general out of a total staff component of just 138.

The department failed to spend R280 million of last year's budget, and it underbudgeted by R1,3 billion for the current financial year, on account of the poor quality of business plans submitted to the Treasury for the development of the pebble-bed modular nuclear reactor; this at a time when South Africa needs more electricity.

The department's objective is to develop the economy with the aid of public enterprises, to promote competition, and to channel dividends on taxpayers' money back to the Treasury, but in practice it is failing to achieve this objective and is doing the opposite.

Public enterprises absorb 72% of the department's budget. Despite this SAA, with its 11 directors who together hold 136 directorships, started the financial year with a loss of R1,3 billion, while Denel, with its 13 directors who together serve on a total of 111 boards, is struggling to survive financially and this year, for the umpteenth time, is receiving almost R1 billion from the Treasury to ensure its survival.

Given that Eskom is also struggling with problems relating to poor maintenance and capacity, while Transnet cannot meet South Africa's transport needs adequately, and Alexkor is also operating at a loss, the DA cannot approve this Budget Vote. Since the department is also failing to carry out its mission, the DA requests that its objection be recorded. Thank you.]

Madam Chair, in the 20th century the developing countries that succeeded in promoting industrialisation, sustained growth and development have all had in common developmental states that played a leading role in infrastructure development programmes which had an active industrial strategy. In this context it is correct that there has been renewed emphasis on the role that State-owned Enterprises, SOEs, must play in the developmental state, in that they must remain government-owned to play a vital role in economic growth, as stated in the Estimates of National Expenditure, 2007.

Given South Africa's current challenges, the developmental state should maintain its strategic role in shaping the development of a number of key economic sectors, including through continued ownership of state-owned enterprises. These sectors include the energy, national transport and logistics system, where an ongoing strategic role is envisaged for Eskom and Transnet. We should consider the best means to enhance the strategic role of these and other public enterprises, utilities and agencies across all spheres of government.

The state thus intends to retain ownership of South African Airways as the national carrier with a strategic role to play in South Africa's rapidly developing economy, which requires reliable and extensive air transport capacity. As has been said previously, there are no guarantees that the market would run SAA in a manner that would deliver on the developmental objectives and it is thus vital that SAA remains in state hands. In conclusion, when there are problems with state-owned enterprises, it is important that we look at the management of these state-owned enterprises and not at their ownership. The ANC supports the Vote.

Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance dissenting).

Vote No 31 - Science and Technology - put and agreed to.

Vote No 32 - Trade and Industry - put and agreed to (Democratic Alliance dissenting).

Vote No 33 - Transport - put.

Declarations of vote:

Chairperson, in my last two budget debate speeches, I reflected a more positive approach in the direction that the department was taking towards policy developments. My main concerns were the department's inability to implement these plans, spend its budget efficiently, and finally monitor and evaluate its key programmes with a 40%-plus vacancy rate.

On many counts I've been proved right. The absolute debacle surrounding the implementation of eNatis migration is reminiscent of the same continued failure by the department to properly manage the credit-card format driver's licence. Both these projects have concerns of alleged corrupt dealings involving Mr Schabir Shaik and his companies and the former Minister Mac Maharaj. Removing these associated companies from the credit card licence deal through a shuffling of shareholders will not resolve the matter as to how the contract was awarded in the first place.

I therefore reiterate my appeal to the Minister, as I did in my budget speech, for a full independent audit of the project from inception to implementation. The same could be said of the Tasima contract. Unless this is done, these two projects will continue to haunt the department for years to come.

The department's budget has changed dramatically this year with the inclusion of added responsibilities towards transport-related and public transport systems, particularly with regard to bus rapid transit, commuter rail and taxi recapitalisation. These three developments are of great importance in ensuring a successful World Cup and the legacy that it leaves us.

However, the lack of capacity in the department to implement these projects timeously and efficiently is of concern. The monitoring of Gautrain with its massive expenditure over the next three years will require exceptional skills in the transfer of funds in accordance with the tender, its objectives and ultimate sustainability. Time will tell whether this stand- alone project will attract currently marginalised users and integrate public transport services, as the Minister continues to assure this House and the public at large.

Finally, I cannot but reiterate the need for more funds to maintain our roads. Safe access between our cities for the World Cup for those who are unable to afford air flights is essential. Under these circumstances, we will have to object to this Vote.

Agb Voorsitter, die departement sal hierdie jaar bekend staan as die departement van blapse. Die eerste blaps was die implementering van die eNatis-stelsel. Die tweede blaps was om die koerante te probeer verbied om die inhoud van die Ouditeur-generaal se verslag te publiseer. Die derde blaps was om die motoriste met 'n bykomende R30 te wil belas om vir hierdie blapse te betaal. Dit is totaal onaanvaarbaar. Die Minister is hierdie jaar die Minister van Blapse. Die VF Plus sal nie hierdie begrotingspos kan ondersteun nie. (Translation of Afrikaans declaration of vote follows.)

[Mr P J GROENEWALD: Hon Chairperson, this year the department will be known as the department of blunders. The first blunder was the implementation of the eNatis system. The second blunder was the attempt to ban the newspapers from publishing the Auditor-General's report. The third blunder was an attempt to impose an additional tax of R30 on motorists to pay for these blunders. This is totally unacceptable. This year the Minister is the Minister of blunders. The FF Plus will not be able to support this Vote.]

Chairperson, I think it is important that we look at the big picture and not at the little picture. Three to four years ago we were spending some R6 billion a year on transport. By 2009-10, we'll be spending R21,5 billion on transport. That's wonderful news for millions of South Africans who frankly, at the moment, don't have decent public transport, and I think we really need to support this budget. That trend reflects an annual 20% and more increase.

This is not accidental. The Minister of Transport and his department have lobbied hard and long to really place transport, and particularly public transport, at the centre of our developmental priorities. The Cabinet agreed in January this year that the number one legacy that we need to develop out of our 2010 hosting of the Fifa World Cup needs to be decent public transport in our country.

Yes, there are challenges and as we are beginning to try to spend this money, there are challenges of capacity and so on. As you may or may not know, Chairperson, the ANC is going to an important policy conference next week and we always debate amongst ourselves what the motive force of the national democratic revolution is. I am not sure how that debate will pan out next week but I think one thing that we are very clear about as the ANC is that the motive force of the motive force, however you define it, is safe, affordable and accessible public transport. That's why the ANC supports this budget. [Applause.] Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).

Vote No 34 - Water Affairs and Forestry - put.

Declaration of vote:

Chairperson, though the UDM supports Budget Vote No 34, I would like to use this declaration and again appeal that urgent attention be given to a policy area.

Our country suffers from a severe scarcity of water. Research indicates that the country will become even drier. Furthermore, we have a growing population. Whilst urbanisation towards Gauteng and the coastal regions places an even larger burden on areas already suffering from a shortage of water, long-term planning is required to address this undeniable issue.

Even if all current conservation and development strategies are implemented to their fullest extent, we might still face severe water shortages in 10 years' time. When those shortages occur, the price of water will rise until the poor can literally not afford water and the economy will be squeezed, as farms and factories cannot remain profitable with escalating water costs.

The department is not showing enough urgency in pursuing such alternatives. For instance, desalination of sea water is actively being researched and developed by numerous countries. Yet, South Africa remains a reluctant participant in this most obvious water resource solution. Thank you, Chairperson.

Vote agreed to.

Schedule put and agreed to.