Chairperson, firstly, it is important that the Department of Labour should deal with labour brokers because we have a problem with them. Secondly, the department should look at the Setas because there is a lot of money being spent on them and they seem not to be carrying out the function they are supposed to be carrying out. I am referring to the Setas that belong to the department. The Minister must not point at somebody else. I am talking to the Minister directly through you, Chair.
Lastly, the department must deal with stakeholders, trade unions and other people who deal with the Department of Labour. It must ensure that they adhere to the financial management of the department and know what the department wants. Directors and everybody must adhere to the Public Finance Management Act so that this matter can be dealt with once and for all. Thank you very much.
Before I call on the next party, I just want to make corrections on the Vote we did on Health. We have 226 for the ayes and not 266. The noes still remain the same - 106; and there are no abstentions. That is the correction I wanted to make because the information that came from the Table had 266 for the ayes. So, we have just corrected that now on the records.
Chair, on a point of order: Can I just address you on one issue? The hon member there referred to the hon Ndlovu as "wena weNdlovu". That is a serious address reserved for the King. It's a serious matter. It should not be used like that. Thank you.
Order! Hon member, you are correct. We did not hear that. However, if it was expressed and shouted, you are right in terms of the correct form of address. I think the members will take note thereof. Thank you very much.
Chairperson, I just want to check if we are using the same system of counting that was used during Idols, because the votes seem not to be tallying and we later get proper results. [Laughter.]
Order! We will look into that and come back to you. I know you want to put us on the spot now.
Mr Chairman, on a point of order: We actually agree with the hon member. We are convinced that the noes had far more votes than just 107 and, therefore, we agree with his point! [Laughter.]
Order! After the IFP has expressed its declaration of vote on Labour, is there any other party wishing to make any declaration of vote? I do not see any. There is the ANC.
Mr Chairperson, the ANC manifesto talks of the creation of decent jobs for all. We believe that the strategic objectives of this budget will assist and contribute to the creation of those decent jobs.
The manifesto also talks about the prohibition of labour brokers. We believe that this budget will not only look at abolishing labour brokers, but will also assist in defining the employer, the employee and the workplace with the intention of rescuing millions of workers who are exploited by unknown employers. The ANC supports this budget. [Applause.]
Vote agreed to.
Vote No 16 - Social Development - put.
Declarations of vote:
Chair, hon Minister and Deputy Minister, in the Budget debate, Cope raised some concerns. We are happy that the hon Minister did respond to most of them. Cope supports the budget.
We appeal to the hon Minister to consider our concerns during the implementation of programmes. We have the following concerns, amongst other things: information dissemination; monitoring and evaluation; national development agencies; project funding to benefit more projects; and staffing. Having highlighted the concerns, we emphasise the following: no nepotism, fraud and corruption; and bursaries for the needy, poor and vulnerable.
The investigation unit should continue with their task. Thank you. [Applause.]
Chair, the fact that this substantially increased budget is positioned to improve social assistance and welfare services is encouraging for the ACDP. We also welcome the allocation for social work bursaries.
The ACDP is relieved that the child support grant for 15-year-olds will take effect this year and extend to 18-year-olds. The present lack of child support for 15 to 18-year-olds has resulted in children, in significant numbers, resorting to prostitution, which they see as their only hope of survival. This is tragic. The ACDP appeals to the Minister to urgently deliver on these extended grants.
While the increased budget for welfare services to improve protection for vulnerable groups looks promising, there are serious problems in provinces where budget allocation is totally inadequate for the implementation of the Children's Act, especially in the Eastern Cape, KwaZulu-Natal and Limpopo. Not even 50% of what is required has been allocated. This will cost us dearly in the long run as we are failing children in the most disturbing circumstances.
The steep decline in the number of people who have applied to adopt children and to offer themselves as foster parents is a growing concern, especially as child abandonment and neglect has increased. The ACDP appeals to the department to prioritise more effective efforts to encourage a culture of adoption. The ACDP recognises the enormous challenges. We will, however, support this Vote. To invest in our future, we must invest in our children. Thank you.
Chairperson, the ANC is satisfied that resources provided will ensure that the Department of Social Development and its entities will perform with regard to their service delivery mandate. Social assistance grants are government's biggest poverty alleviation programme. It is actually worrying that the hon Gcume from Cope is commenting on fraud because she has disclosed to us in the committee that she is receiving a child support grant. Therefore, the ANC calls on her to cancel this grant if she is receiving it for her children or for children living with her since she is a public representative. If she is receiving it for children who are not living with her, that's fine. People who live in glass houses should not throw stones! The ANC supports Vote No 16. [Applause.]
Vote agreed to.
Vote No 17 - Sport and Recreation South Africa - put.
Declarations of vote:
Chairperson, Boxing SA is in a state of meltdown and has been for some time. The portfolio committee agrees with me that Boxing SA, its board and its general administration are a disgrace and have been for years. To understand the extent of the problem I invite all members to visit Boxing SA's website. It consists of nothing more than a banner which reads, and I quote: "Suspended due to nonpayment".
The Department of Sport and Recreation is not a model of excellence either. It also received a qualified Auditor-General report this year. It is for the above-mentioned reasons that the DA will oppose the department's Budget Vote, and to pre-empt the hon Koos van der Merwe, we will also call for a division. Chairperson, I thank you.
Thank you, hon Chairperson. While the IFP supports the Budget Vote on Sport and Recreation SA, I want to take this opportunity to ask the Minister in The Presidency - National Planning Commission and the Minister of Finance, in their presence, to ensure that in their planning they put aside money for Sport and Recreation and to take it away from the Mineworkers Investment Company. This is because for the last two years, when it was part of that, we were able to build more than 200 basic facilities. When it was made part of the MIC, we could not even account for one facility. I therefore take this opportunity to make sure that they put more money into Sport and Recreation to ensure that Sport and Recreation builds the basic facilities on its own. Thank you very much.
Chairperson, the ANC said that the 2010 investment must be well looked after. We are talking about the department that has been given that mandate and the department that is executing the mandate, without doubt, very well. I say this in the presence of Donald Lee. [Interjections.]
It is not the DA, but the ANC that has put forward very profound suggestions to the department on how to deal with the issues of Boxing SA. It is not the DA because the DA cannot think strategically and put forward suggestions to the Minister. [Interjections.]
We are talking about a department that Mr Lee knows has had many inputs and that there were some issues that the Auditor-General raised. Today he can confirm that there are only a few of those, because together with him we have worked so that these disclaimers by the Auditor-General do not come back. We are saying to the DA: Please, the ANC supports this budget; join this department for the spectacular 2010 so that you can celebrate and see that it has delivered. Thank you. [Applause.]
Division demanded.
The House divided.
AYES - 257: Abram, S; Adams, P E; Adams, L H; Ainslie, A R; Balindlela, Z B; Baloyi, M R; Bam-Mugwanya, V; Bapela, K O; Bhengu, P; Bhoola, R B; Bikani, F C; Bogopane-Zulu, H I; Bonhomme, T J; Booi, M S; Borman, G M; Boshigo, D F; Botha, T; Botha, Y R; Burgess, C V; Buthelezi, M G; Carrim, Y I; Cebekhulu, R N; Chikunga, L S; Chiloane, T D; Chohan, F I; Coleman, E M; Cronin, J P; Cwele, S C; Dambuza, B N; Dandala, H M; Davies, R H; De Lange, J H; Dhlamini, B W; Diale, L N; Dikgacwi, M M; Dlamini-Zuma, N C; Dlulane, B N; Dubazana, Z S; Dube, M C; Dudley, C; Dunjwa, M L; Ebrahim,E I ; Farisani, T S; Fihla, N B; Fransman, M L; Frolick, C T; Fubbs, J L; Gasebonwe, T M A; Gcume, N P; Gcwabaza, N E; Gelderblom, J P; George, M E; Gigaba, K M N; Gina, N; Godongwana, E; Gololo, C L; Gona, M F; Goqwana, M B; Gumede, D M; Gungubele, M; Gxowa, N B; Hajaig, F; Hanekom, D A; Hogan, B A; Holomisa, S P; Jacobus, L; Jeffery, J H; Joemat-Pettersson, T M; Johnson, M; Kekana, C D; Kenye, T E; Khoarai, L P; Kholwane, S E; Khunou, N P; Kilian, J D; Komphela, B M; Koornhof, N J J v R; Kota-Fredericks, Z A; Kotsi, C M P; Kubayi, M T; Landers, L T; Lekgetho, G; Line, H; Lishivha, T E; Luthuli, A N; Luyenge, Z; Maake, J J; Mabasa, X; Mabedla, N R; Mabuza, M C; Mac Kenzie, G P D; Madasa, Z L; Madikizela-Mandela, N W; Madlala, N M; Mafolo, M V; Magama, H T; Magau, K R; Magazi, M N; Magwanishe, G; Mahlangu- Nkabinde, G L; Makasi, X C; Makhuba, H N; Makhubela-Mashele, L S; Makhubele, Z S; Malale, M I; Malgas, H H; Maluleka, H P; Maluleke, J M; Manamela, K B; Mandela, Z M D; Manganye, J; Mangena, M S; Manuel, T A; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Martins, B A D; Masango, F T-T; Mashatile, P; Mashiane, L M; Mashigo, R J; Mashishi, A C; Mataboge, D K; Mathebe, D H; Mathebe, P M; Mathibela, N F; Matladi, M N; Matlanyane, H F; Matshoba, J M; Maunye, M M; Mavunda, D W; Mbili, M E; Mc Gluwa, J J; Mda, A; Mdakane, M R; Mdladlana, M M S; Mentor, M P; Meshoe, K R J; Mjobo, L N; Mkhize, H B; Mkhize, L N; Mkhulusi, N N P; Mlambo, E M; Mlangeni, A; Mmusi, S G; Mncwango, M A; Mnguni, P B; Mnisi, N A; Mocumi, P A; Molebatsi, M A; Moloi- Moropa, J C; Morutoa, M R; Moss, L N; Motimele, M S; Motlanthe, K P; Motshekga, M A; Motshekga, M S; Mpontshane, A M; Msimang, C T; Msweli, H S; Mthethwa, E M; Mthethwa, E N; Mtshali, E; Mufamadi, T A; Mushwana, F F; Muthambi, A F; Nchabeleng, M E; Ndabeni, S T; Ndlovu, V B; Nel, A C; Nelson, WJ; Nene, N M; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngcobo, B T; Ngcobo, E N N; Ngele, N J; Ngonyama, L S; Ngwenya, W; Ngwenya-Mabila, P C; Nhanha, M A; Nhlengethwa, D G; Njikelana, S J; Njobe, M A A; Nkwinti, G E; November, N T; Ntapane, S Z; Ntshiqela, P; Ntuli, B M; Ntuli, Z C; Nxesi, T W; Nyalungu, R E; Nyanda, S; Nyekemba, E; Oosthuizen, G C; Padayachie, R L; Pandor, G N M; Peters, E D; Petersen-Maduna, P; Phaahla, M J; Phaliso, M N; Pilusa-Mosoane, M E; Radebe, B A; Radebe, G S; Radebe, J T; Ramodibe, D M; Rantsolase, M A; Rasool, E; Saal, G; Schneemann, G D; Sefularo, M; Segale- Diswai, M J; Selau, G J; Sexwale, T M G; Shabangu, S; Shiceka, S; Shilowa, M S; Sibanyoni, J B; Sibhida, N N; Singh, N; Sisulu, L N; Sithole, S C N; Sizani, P S; Skosana, J J; Skosana, M B; Smith, P F; Smith, V G; Snell, G T; Sogoni, E M; Sosibo, J E; Sotyu, M M; Stofile, M A; Suka, L; Sulliman, E M; Sunduza, T B; Surty, M E; Swart, S N; Thabethe, E; Thobejane, S G; Tinto, B; Tlake, M F; Tsebe, S R; Tseke, G K; Tsenoli, S L; Tshivhase, T J; Tshwete, P; Tsotetsi, D R; Turok, B; Twala, N M; Vadi, I; Van der Merwe, J H; Van der Merwe, S C; Van Schalkwyk, M C J; Vukuza, N Y; Williams, A J; Xaba, P P; Xasa, T; Yengeni, L E; Zikalala, C N Z; Zondi, K M.
NOES - 67: Boinamo, G G; Bosman, L L; Carter, D; Coetzee, T W; Davidson, I O; De Freitas, M S F; Doman, W P; Dreyer, A M; Du Toit, N D; Duncan, P C; Ellis, M J; Farrow, S B; Figlan, A M; Fritz, A T; George, D T; Groenewald, P J; James, W G; Kalyan, S V; Kganare, D A; Kloppers-Lourens, J C; Kohler- Barnard, D; Kopane, S P; Krumbock, G R; Lamoela, H; Lee, T D; Lotriet, A; Louw, A; Lovemore, A T; Madisha, W M; Marais, S J F; Masango, S J; Maynier, D J; Michael, N W A; Mnqasela, M; Mokgalapa, S; Molao, S K; More, E; Morgan, G R; Motau, S C; Mubu, K S; Mulder, C P; Ndude, H N; Ollis, I M; Pretorius, P J C; Rabie, P J; Rabotapi, M W; Schmidt, H C; Schmidt, J; Selfe, J; Shinn, M R; Smiles, D C; Steele, M H; Steyn, A; Steyn, A C; Swart, M; Swathe, M M; Terblanche, J F; Tolo, L J; Trollip, R A P; Van Dalen, P; Van Den Berg, N J; Van der Linde, J J; Van der Westhuizen, A P; Van Dyk, S M; Van Schalkwyk, H C; Waters, M; Wenger, M.
ABSTAIN - 1: Poho, P.
Vote accordingly agreed to.
Vote No 18 - Correctional Services - put.
Declarations of vote:
Madam Chairperson, the Department of Correctional Services has had a poor record over the past couple of years. The department has failed to deal with corruption in its ranks. It allowed high-profile inmates such as Ananias Mathe and Jean-Claude Lacote to escape from custody. It has had a series of qualified audits.
This year it renewed a catering contract with Bosasa, despite the fact that it was not the lowest bidder and while the previous contract is still being investigated by the Special Investigating Unit. It has not built the new- generation prisons first announced in 2002, and it gave medical parole to Schabir Shaik, when it was clear he did not qualify for it, and then refused to review the decision.
We were prepared to give the Minister the benefit of the doubt, as most of these decisions and policy failures were those of her predecessor, but she said at a press conference, and I quote:
I am now Minister Ngconde. I own the decisions he has taken, and if it means taking responsibility for these matters, I will.
To make matters worse, her department took out a series of full-page, full- colour advertisements in the weekend papers at vast cost, completely unnecessarily, to publicise her budget speech. This was at the same time as the hon the Minister of Finance told government departments to cut out wasteful expenditure and when we won't pay doctors a decent salary. For these reasons, we will not be supporting this Vote. [Applause.]
Hon Speaker, Cope raised a number of issues that were of concern to us. We are happy that the Minister has responded to some of the issues and acknowledged the challenges raised by Cope.
We therefore would like to take this opportunity to express our support for the budget. We hope that the Minister will address the following: the lack of accountability by the department to the parliamentary portfolio committee; the noncompliance with rules and regulations relating to procurement procedures; and the review of section 79 of the Correctional Services Act, Act 111 of 1998. The Minister will receive full support from Cope and we hope that the Minister will be able to turn the department around. Enkosi kakhulu. [Thank you very much.][Applause.]
Chairperson, the ACDP clearly understands that as there is an increased focus on fighting crime, with additional resources for police, detectives, prosecutors and courts, Correctional Services will be on the receiving end of this process as more offenders are arrested and prosecuted. Clearly, therefore, additional staff and resources must be given.
We have seen the result of underresourcing particularly when it comes to overcrowding. Prisons are 42% overcrowded. Overcrowding is the root cause of health problems and the spread of diseases such as tuberculosis, HIV and Aids, besides contributing to gangster-related activities.
We, as the ACDP, are also very concerned about the high level of reoffending, estimated to be 94%. The department is clearly then not succeeding in its offender-rehabilitation programme. The ACDP was one of the first to recommend that prisoners be put to work to assist with rehabilitation by learning skills. This issue requires further attention.
Lastly, the ACDP supports a full review of the medical parole policy in view of the Schabir Shaik controversy. However, the ACDP will support this Budget Vote. Thank you.
Chairperson, we think it would be useful if political parties stood up here and told us what it is that they will do in the future, as opposed to highlighting the shortcomings of the past. [Interjections.]
The Auditor-General's report, as an example, has consistently improved over the years. Whilst there has been a disclaimer, there has been improvement and I think we should give credit where credit is due.
As the ANC, we have a responsibility to provide leadership to society and maybe others should also provide leadership. In that regard, this budget, we believe, assists in calling on communities and families to be more receptive to ex-offenders. [Interjections.]
We think that this budget assists in calling on business to afford more work opportunities to offenders. We think that this budget calls on all South Africans to stop the stigmatisation and marginalisation of those who have found themselves in conflict with the law. [Interjections.]
Maybe you should listen to us before you speak. You have no contributions to make in the committee; you have no contributions to make here other than to make jokes. This is a serious matter that we are dealing with here, and Cope has never been a serious party. [Laughter.] [Applause.]
Our end objective as public representatives, including Cope, must be to build a united, democratic, nonracial and prosperous nation. That must be our objective. It is within this context that the ANC supports Budget Vote No 18. Thank you. [Applause.]
Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance dissenting).
Vote No 19 - Defence and Military Veterans, formerly Defence - put.
Declarations of vote:
Chairperson, the Minister of Defence and Military Veterans, Lindiwe Sisulu, made the welcome announcement during the Budget Vote debate last week that it was incumbent on all of us to work towards ensuring that we shift from an ideology of the past to a democratic ideology. That, we must all agree, is a step in the right direction. It is unfortunate that the Minister appears to have ignored her own advice and seems to be going in the wrong direction: from a democratic ideology to an ideology of the past.
Chairperson, the central question before us in deciding whether to support or oppose the Budget Vote was this: What effect will the R32billion appropriated for Defence have on the combat readiness of the defence force? The short answer to that question is this: We do not know, because the Department of Defence and Military Veterans will not tell us or, perhaps more accurately, the Department of Defence and Military Veterans will tell us, but only on condition that we do not tell you.
We were told that the Department of Defence and Military Veterans would not provide a briefing on the state of combat readiness of the defence force, because the Minister had not been briefed. Then we were told that the Department of Defence and Military Veterans will not provide a full and open briefing, because it would compromise national security. Now it emerges that last year the media were briefed on the state of combat readiness of the SAAF and the SA Navy. Parliament cannot be briefed, but the press can be briefed.
Chairperson, we do not know all the details, but we know the Defence Force is in deep trouble. We have soldiers without vehicles; we have ships without sailors; we have planes without pilots; and we have military hospitals without doctors. The result is that we have soldiers in the barracks, not in the field; we have ships alongside, not at sea; and we have aircraft in hangars, not in the air. We have an army that is overstretched, a navy that is understretched, and an air force with nothing to stretch! [Laughter.]
What does this all mean, Chair? We are expected to support a R32billion appropriation, but we are not allowed to know to what effect that money is spent, and we will not do so. The DA therefore opposes the budget on defence and military veterans, which is Vote No 19, for the 2009-10 financial year. [Time expired.]
Chairperson, we, as the ACDP, share concerns relating to the lack of information on the combat readiness. However, we do want to point out that the department's budget has been significantly increased since last year. In the past, we always expressed our concerns about lack of resources, and we do support the fact that the budget has been significantly increased. Financial constraints remain, however, as the department seeks to fulfil its statutory obligations, particularly regarding peacekeeping functions.
We also support the Minister's announcement that the SANDF will be deployed to patrol our borders. It was clearly a mistake to give SAPS this task; their task is to fight crime, not secure our border. We also wish to pay tribute to all our men and women in uniform who are serving in peacekeeping operations on the continent. The ACDP will support the Budget Vote, notwithstanding the reservations we expressed. Thank you.
Voorsitter, ek het reeds in my toespraak ges dat hierdie Parlement moet besluit: wil ons 'n weermag h of wil ons nie 'n weermag h nie?
Ek wil vandag vir u s dat vir die afgelope drie jaar, as ons 'n voorlegging kry oor die gevegsgereedheid van die SA Nasionale Weermag, sien ons dat daar ernstige probleme is, en die grootste oorsaak van daardie probleem is die gebrek aan fondse. Die VF Plus sal hierdie Begrotingspos vandag steun, want ons het juis te min geld.
Voorsitter, in hierdie Parlement het al die politieke partye saamgestem dat ons die nuwe wapens aankoop. Meer as R40 miljard van die belastingbetaler is aangewend vir gesofistikeerde wapentuig. Ek dink die Parlement is dit verskuldig aan die belastingbetalers dat ons daardie wapentuig behoorlik aanwend. Ons het tans nie eens genoeg fondse om ons vlieniers genoeg te laat vlieg nie. Dis hoekom hulle weggaan. Ons het nie eens behoorlike fondse om ons ander duikbote operasioneel te kry nie. Daar is basies nie een wat eens volledig operasioneel is nie.
Ons moet ook wegdoen met regstellende aksie. Ons moet ons beste mense vir die poste kry. Die Minister het uitdagings. Ek weet sy is bevoeg om dit te kan hanteer, maar ons s gee vir die Weermag geld, want as ons s ons wil hulle behou, moet ons hulle finansier. Dankie. (Translation of Afrikaans declaration of vote follows.)
[Mr P J GROENEWALD: Chairperson, I've already said in my speech that this Parliament must decide: do we want to have a defence force or don't we?
I can tell you today that for the past three years, whenever we have received a submission on the combat readiness of the SA National Defence Force, we have noted that there are serious problems, and the cause of these problems is the lack of funds. The FF Plus will be supporting this budget today, because we have too little money.
Chairperson, all the political parties in this Parliament agreed to the purchasing of the new weapons. More than R40 billion from the taxpayers was utilised for sophisticated weaponry. I think Parliament owes it to the taxpayers to utilise this weaponry properly. Presently we do not even have enough money to let our pilots fly. That is why they are leaving. We do not even have the proper funding to get our other submarines operational. Basically not one of them is even fully operational.
We should also do away with affirmative action. We should get the best people for the posts. The Minister is facing challenges. I know that she is capable of dealing with them, but we are saying give the defence force money, because if we are saying that we want to keep them, then we must finance them. Thank you.]
Ngiyabonga Sihlalo. Cha, ngifuna ukuveza izinto ezimbili ezimqoka.
Eyokuqala,izibhedlela lapho amasosha elashwa khona azizinhle neze. Okwesibili, izimoto abazisebenzisayo azivumelani nempilo yazo ukuthi zikwazi ukuqhubeka ngakho-ke izimpahla nezinto abazisebenzisayo njengamasosha alapha eNingizimu Afrika akufuneki zibukelwe phansi. Ngakho- ke kufuneka ngaso sonke isikhathi ahlonishwe emsebenzini awenzayo.
Okokugcina, yilaba ababekwe emazweni angaphandle. Kufuneka ngaso sonke isikhathi sibabhekelele ezimalini abazikhokhelwayo nangedlela abaphila ngayo ngaphandle ngoba impilo yangaphandle ayifani neyasekhaya. Ngiyathokoza kakhulu. (Translation of isiZulu declaration of vote follows.)
[Mr V B NDLOVU: Thank you, Chairperson. I just want to highlight two important issues.
The first one is that the hospitals where soldiers are treated are not in good condition. Secondly, the vehicles they use are also not roadworthy; therefore, the implements and the tools that the South African soldiers use should not be looked down upon. It is therefore appropriate that the work that they do should always be respected.
The last issue is with regard to those who are deployed in foreign countries. We should always consider the way they are remunerated and their living conditions in those countries because those conditions are not the same as the ones at home. Thank you very much.]
Madam Chair, I think it is important that we continue to understand what it means to vote and come back and say that we have won the majority of the vote. If you do not understand democratic practices, it does show in the manner that you have interpreted what the Minister presented to you last week.
The Minister has been quite vocal and has allowed us and, as Parliament, we have allowed you to express your own point of view and have given you the opportunity to pinpoint where the weaknesses are. In general, all intellectuals will tell you that democracy is not a superb system, but there is a difficulty for you to understand that when she allows you to engage and get information.
You have today been part of a committee where I gave all Members of Parliament the opportunity to reflect on the matter, and the majority of our own members have voted against you and have clearly expressed to you that they cannot allow the national security of the country to be compromised. [Interjections.] That is quite clear; that is the majority of members that have voted for the ANC. Now, what do you expect us to do? Do you expect us to subvert democracy and allow you, on your individual point, to be the only one to be allowed to express your point of view, and then we accept it?
The majority has said in the committee that we need to accept the fact that there is secrecy in the military, and if you understand what it means to have secrecy in the military, you will definitely be able to agree. Luckily, you are a veteran. You do come from one of the submarines. You understand the state of things and that there is secrecy in the military, and I thought I have told you in the portfolio committee that it does not say that the Minister is going back. It says that democracy has been practised.
We have given you an opportunity to express your own points of view, but the majority of our own members in the committee do not agree with you, because they are also concerned about the security of the country, not with your individual right. They have never undermined or compromised you; they have given you your constitutional right. [Interjections.] [Applause.]
Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance dissenting).
Vote 20 - Independent Complaints Directorate - put.
Declarations of vote:
Chairperson, the ICD was established to investigate complaints of brutality, criminality, and misconduct against members of the SAPS. Now the SAPS has a very poor track record on anticorruption initiatives, managed from within. In addition, the SAPS closed down the successful anticorruption unit in 2002, on the grounds of lack of accountability and transformation. Now this closure created a void that the ICD has not been able to fill due to deliberately maintained resource and staffing constraints.
Now that the ANC has shut down the Scorpions, the only unit left that could investigate police corruption would be the ICD. The provincial heads of the ICD have stated that every one of them is currently investigating reports of torture by members of the SAPS as well as deaths at the hands of the police and figures have shown a significant increase in these deaths for the second year in a row.
Yet, when the ICD investigates, 42% of its recommendations are not acted upon by the SAPS. In fact, the SAPS has no legislative compulsion to act on ICD recommendations at all. According to a briefing by the ICD the number of complaints received against the SAPS has increased to 6 119. Deaths in police custody, or as a result of police action, have also increased up 912 in the last year. For the last three years prior to August 2008, R90 million was spent on the salaries of suspended SAPS members. This, in turn, has implications for the public credibility of the SAPS which should, at all times, be beyond reproach, and says much about the attitude of the SAPS towards corruption and maladministration.
This House has a moral obligation to strengthen the ICD, which has, since its inception, been deliberately kept underresourced. The Minister claimed on television recently that he was strengthening the unit, but the truth is that R3 million was then summarily subtracted from their already inadequate budget. They are told to expand but they have no money to do that. We have two separate Votes but nothing for the ICD. What is being done to this unit is a disgrace and we will not vote for this totally inadequate budget.
Agb Voorsitter, dit is eintlik ontstellend as 'n mens vandag in die media moet lees van hoeveel lede van die publiek verkeerdelik gehanteer word deur lede van die polisiediens. Die enigste plek werklik waarna die publiek kan gaan is die Onafhanklike Klagte Direktoraat, OKD, om 'n klag te gaan l teen lede van die polisie.
Wat verder ontstellend is is dat as ons gaan kyk na die statistiek die afgelope vier jaar dan is daar 'n 72% toename van kriminele klagtes teen lede van die polisie. Dit behoort al die rooi ligte te laat aankom.
Die derde mees ontstellende aspek is dat die OKD reguit s dat hulle nie die mannekrag of finansies het om hierdie sake behoorlik te ondersoek nie. As ons gaan kyk na die sake dan sien ons hulle ondersoek maar ongeveer 50% of 51%. Daar is elke keer 'n klomp sake van die vorige jaar wat oorgedra word; hulle kan net nie die stryd wen nie.
Die VF Plus sal hierdie begroting steun vir die OKD, want hulle het die geld nodig, maar ons wil 'n beroep doen dat daar indringend gekyk word dat daar meer geld gegee word sodat die publiek ook 'n beter instrument het waar hulle hul klagtes teen polisielede kan gaan l. Dankie. (Translation of Afrikaans declaration of vote follows.)
[Mr P J GROENEWALD: Hon Chairperson, actually it is very disconcerting if one has to read in the media today about how many members of the public are mishandled by members of the police service. The Independent Complaints Directorate, the ICD, seems to be the only resort for the public if they wish to lodge a complaint against members of the police.
Even more disconcerting is that if we were to look at statistics of the past four years, we would see that there has been an increase of 72% with regard to criminal charges laid against members of the police. This fact already serves as a danger sign.
The third most disconcerting aspect is that the ICD claims that they do not have the manpower or finances to investigate these issues properly. If we were to look at the cases, we would see that they only investigate 50% or 51% of the cases. Every year cases from the previous year are carried over; they simply cannot keep up.
The FF Plus will support this budget for the ICD, as they need the money; but we want to urge that it is important that more money is given, to ensure that the public can have a better instrument by way of which they can lodge their complaints against members of the police service. Thank you.]
Ngiyabonga Sihlalo, okokuqala ngifuna ukuthi kumhlonishwa, kusemqoka ukuthi sibheke umthetho ophethe i-ICD. I-ICD iwenza wonke umsebenzi wayo ... [Thank you, Chairperson. Firstly, I would like to say to the hon member that it is imperative to look at the law that governs the ICD. The ICD does all its duties ...]
... which is the core function ...
... yokuphenya amaphoyisa, ukuthi abantu bafa kanjani ezitokisini nalapho la bebheke khona. Kodwa okubi okusuke kwenzeke ukuthi bawenza wonke umsebenzi emva kwalokho bese benza i-referal kwelinye iphoyisa elisesikhundleni esithe xaxa kunalelo ekade liphenya. Bese kuthi ekugcineni lowo owenze kabi engabe esashushiswa. Yinto embi leyo ngoba izigebengu zibaleka nejoka zibe zingafanele ukubaleka nalo. Okwesibili ... [Kwaphela isikhathi.] Awu! [Uhleko.] (Translation of isiZulu declaration of vote follows.)
[... of investigating police officers, how people die in custody as well as where they are taken to. The problem is that they do all the work and make a referral to a police officer who is more senior than the one who has been conducting the investigation. In the end, the culprit is not prosecuted. This is very bad because the prisoners escape after being caught, which is not supposed to happen. Secondly ... Eish! [Time expired.] [Laughter.]]
Chairperson, the ANC has committed itself to intensifying the fight against crime and corruption. This applies equally to any member of the SAPS or municipal police service, who engages in any act of crime, corruption, or any other act which is contrary to the required police or municipal police behaviour or conduct.
As the ANC, we believe that the role of the ICD forms an integral part in the intensification of the fight against crime and corruption. While, as the ANC, we believe that this budget will assist in this, there are two particular areas which we would like to raise.
The first is that the required number of personnel need to be appointed which will enable the ICD to operate more effectively and efficiently.
Secondly, legislative amendments need to be considered which will ensure that the recommendations of the ICD are implemented by the SA police.
The ANC will work with the Minister and support the Minister in the steps he takes to ensure that the ICD is provided with the necessary tools to carry out its mandate.
The DA has indicated that it will not support this Budget Vote. I think that the message that the DA is sending out very loudly and clearly to the citizens of South Africa is that they actually do not care whether we have a police force where corruption and crime are rooted out. [Interjections.]
Order, please!
That is the message they are sending out. It is the message they send out time and time again. It is for this very reason ...
Hon member, your time has expired.
The ANC will support the Budget Vote. [Applause.]
Division demanded.
The House divided.
AYES - 255: Abram, S; Adams, P E; Adams, L H; Ainslie, A R; Balindlela, Z B; Baloyi, M R; Bam-Mugwanya, V; Bapela, K O; Bhengu, P; Bhoola, R B; Bikani, F C; Bogopane-Zulu, H I; Bonhomme, T J; Booi, M S; Borman, G M; Boshigo, D F; Botha, T; Botha, Y R; Burgess, C V; Carrim, Y I; Carter, D; Cebekhulu, R N; Chikunga, L S; Chiloane, T D; Chohan, F I; Coleman, E M; Cronin, J P; Cwele, S C; Dambuza, B N; Dandala, H M; Davies, R H; De Lange, J H; Dhlamini, B W; Diale, L N; Dikgacwi, M M; Dlamini-Zuma, N C; Dlulane, B N; Dubazana, Z S; Dube, M C; Dudley, C; Dunjwa, M L; Ebrahim, E I; Farisani, T S; Fihla, N B; Fransman, M L; Frolick, C T; Fubbs, J L; Gasebonwe, T M A; Gcwabaza, N E; Gelderblom, J P; Gigaba, K M N; Gina, N; Godongwana, E; Gololo, C L; Gona, M F; Goqwana, M B; Groenewald, P J; Gumede, D M; Gungubele, M; Gxowa, N B; Hajaig, F; Hanekom, D A; Hogan, B A; Holomisa, S P; Jacobus, L; Jeffery, J H; Joemat-Pettersson, T M; Johnson, M; Kekana, C D; Kganare, D A; Khoarai, L P; Kholwane, S E; Khunou, N P; Kilian, J D; Komphela, B M; Koornhof, N J J v R; Kota-Fredericks, Z A; Kotsi, C M P; Kubayi, M T; Landers, L T; Lekgetho, G; Line, H; Lishivha, T E; Luthuli, A N; Luyenge, Z; Maake, J J; Mabasa, X; Mabedla, N R; Mabuza, M C; Madasa, Z L; Madlala, N M; Mafolo, M V; Magagula, V V; Magama, H T; Magau, K R; Magazi, M N; Magwanishe, G ; Mahlangu-Nkabinde, G L; Makasi, X C; Makhuba, H N; Makhubela-Mashele, L S; Makhubele, Z S; Malale, M I; Malgas, H H; Maluleka, H P; Maluleke, J M; Manamela, K B; Manana, M C; Mandela, Z M D; Manganye, J; Mangena, M S; Manuel, T A; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Martins, B A D; Masango, F T-T; Mashatile, P; Mashiane, L M; Mashigo, R J; Mashishi, A C; Masutha, T M; Mataboge, D K; Mathebe, D H; Mathebe, P M; Mathibela, N F; Matladi, M N; Matlanyane, H F; Matshoba, J M; Maunye, M M; Mavunda, D W; Mbili, M E; Mc Gluwa, J J; Mda, A; Mdaka, N M; Mdakane, M R; Mdladlana, M M S; Mentor, M P; Meshoe, K R J; Mjobo, L N; Mkhize, H B; Mkhize, L N; Mkhulusi, N N P; Mlambo, E M; Mlangeni, A; Mmusi, S G; Mnguni, P B; Mnisi, N A; Mocumi, P A; Molebatsi, M A; Moloi-Moropa, J C; Morutoa, M R; Moss, L N; Motimele, M S; Motlanthe, K P; Motshekga, M A; Motshekga, M S; Mpontshane, A M; Msimang, C T; Mthethwa, E M; Mthethwa, E N; Mtshali, E; Mufamadi, T A; Mulder, C P; Mushwana, F F; Muthambi, A F; Nchabeleng, M E; Ndabandaba, L B G; Ndabeni, S T; Ndlovu, V B; Nel, A C; Nelson, W J; Nene, N M; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngcobo, B T; Ngcobo, E N N; Ngele, N J; Ngonyama , L S; Ngwenya-Mabila, P C; Nhlengethwa, D G; Njikelana, S J; Njobe, M A A; Nkwinti, G E; November, N T; Ntapane, S Z; Ntuli, B M; Ntuli, Z C; Nxesi, T W; Nyalungu, R E; Nyama, M M A; Nyanda, S; Nyekemba, E; Oosthuizen, G C; Padayachie, R L; Pandor, G N M; Peters, E D; Petersen- Maduna, P; Phaahla, M J; Phaliso, M N; Pilusa-Mosoane, M E; Pule, D D; Radebe, B A; Radebe, G S; Radebe, J T; Ramatlhodi, N A; Ramodibe, D M; Rantsolase, M A; Rasool, E; Saal, G; Schneemann, G D; Sefularo, M; Segale- Diswai, M J; Selau, G J; Sexwale, T M G; Shabangu, S; Shiceka, S; Sibanyoni, J B; Sibhida, N N; Singh, N; Sisulu, L N; Sithole, S C N; Sizani, P S; Skosana, J J; Skosana, M B; Smith, P F; Smith, V G; Snell, G T; Sogoni, E M; Sosibo, J E; Sotyu, M M; Stofile, M A; Suka, L; Sulliman, E M; Sunduza, T B; Surty, M E; Swart, S N; Thabethe, E; Thobejane, S G; Tinto, B; Tlake, M F; Tseke, G K; Tsenoli, S L; Tshivhase, T J; Tshwete, P; Tsotetsi, D R; Turok, B; Twala, N M; Vadi, I; Van der Merwe, J H; Van der Merwe, S C; Van Schalkwyk, M C J; Williams, A J; Xaba, P P; Xasa, T; Yengeni, L E; Zikalala, C N Z; Zondi, K M.
NOES - 66: Blaai, B C; Boinamo, G G; Bosman, L L; Coetzee, T W; Davidson, I O; De Freitas, M S F; Doman, W P; Dreyer, A M; Du Toit, N D; Duncan, P C; Ellis, M J; Farrow, S B; Figlan, A M; Fritz, A T; George, D T; George, M E; James, W G; Kalyan, S V; Kloppers-Lourens, J C; Kohler-Barnard, D; Kopane, S P; Krumbock, G R; Lamoela, H; Lee, T D; Lotriet, A; Louw, A; Lovemore, A T; Mac Kenzie, G P D; Madisha, W M; Marais, S J F; Masango, S J; Maynier, D J; Michael, N W A; Mnqasela, M; Mokgalapa, S; More, E; Morgan, G R; Motau, S C; Msweli, H S; Mubu, K S; Ndude, H N; Ollis, I M; Pretorius, P J C; Rabie, P J; Rabotapi, M W; Schmidt, H C; Schmidt, J; Selfe, J; Shinn, M R; Smiles, D C; Smuts, M; Steele, M H; Steyn, A; Steyn, A C; Swart, M; Swathe, M M; Terblanche, J F; Trollip, R A P; Van Dalen, P; Van Der Berg, N J; Van der Linde, J J; Van der Westhuizen, A P; Van Dyk, S M; Van Schalkwyk, H C; Waters, M; Wenger, M.
ABSTAIN - 6: Gcume, N P; Molao, S K; Nhanha, M A; Ntshiqela, P D; Poho, P; Vukuza-Linda, N Y.
Vote accordingly agreed to.
Vote No 21 - Justice and Constitutional Development - put.
Declarations of vote:
Chairperson, the ACDP welcomes the amount of R3billion allocated for the restructuring of the criminal justice services over the medium term. These funds provide for, inter alia, the expanding of the criminal DNA database, accelerating the roll-out of national fingerprint and case management systems and upgrading IT systems.
We are just awaiting the consideration of the Forensics Bill, and we are pleased that that Bill will be revived later this afternoon. To ensure justice for vulnerable groups such as women and children is crucial. This can be done by implementing the Child Justice Act, Act 75 of 2008, improving services such as maintenance, utilising the Guardian's Fund and provisions of the Domestic Violence Act and Sexual Offences Act, as well as providing assistance for victims of crime.
We must also ensure a reduction in the number of sexual offences, particularly those committed against our children. The ACDP, therefore, welcomes the establishment of the National Register for Sex Offenders that comes into effect this month.
As far as the National Prosecuting Authority, NPA, is concerned, we noted yesterday's announcement regarding the Hawks that will replace the Scorpions. Whilst the ACDP opposes the disbanding of the Scorpions, we are pleased that the majority of the Scorpions investigators accepted positions in the new directorate, thus retaining much-needed skills.
Whilst we wish the new unit every success in its fight against organised crime, it will lack the ingredient that led to the successful conviction rate of the Scorpions, namely prosecution-driven investigations. Nevertheless, the ACDP will support this Budget Vote. I thank you.
Chairperson, the IFP supports this Budget Vote but has many concerns. Today I will raise only two. Firstly, the hon former Deputy Minister of Justice had the courage, some months ago, to admit that the criminal justice system is dysfunctional. We are concerned that not enough is being done to repair the criminal justice system.
Secondly, we are, in particular, concerned about the image of the High Courts. We have a Judge President who is in litigation with the judges of the Constitutional Court. That is very very damaging to the image of the justice system in South Africa.
I have read in the newspaper this weekend - I do not know if it is true, but it is being speculated - that a particular Judge President has indicated that he will take R20 million and leave. I do not know if it is true, but I think that the President of the country and the Minister should intervene to stop that problem. It is very damaging to the image of South Africa.
Finally, the hon Mr Surty was the Minister of Justice for a few months and he was very energetic and passionate, so much so that we gave him the nickname "Kookwater", meaning boiling water. We wish him well in his new position and thank him for what he has done in a few months. Thank you.
Chairperson, the Freedom Charter proclaims that all shall be equal before the law. The ANC, therefore, supports this budget, pursuant to that clarion call as adopted by our forefathers in 1955. I want to emphasise that all of us working together, in particular those within the judiciary, should ensure that transformation indeed does take place so that all can be equal before the law.
We are particularly worried about gender-based decisions that allow criminals and rapists to be released back into society in order to perpetrate further crimes against women and children. There have been several decisions in recent days within our courts which are cause for serious concern. I am sure we would all agree that we need to pray for those who make decisions that allow rapists to continue to repeat their acts against victims. I'm sure we would also agree that we need, again working together, to reclaim victims' rights so that those who have been abused and violated in our societies are given the necessary support. The ANC supports this budget. Thank you. [Applause.]
Vote agreed to.
Vote No 22 - Police, formerly Safety and Security - put.
Declarations of vote:
Chairperson, supported in this budget is a Ministry that produces crime statistics that are at best 18 months old and at worst fabricated. We do not know how many people are murdered each day, robbed each day and raped each day.
Despite this budget, civilians spend R40 billion a year on private security. Despite this budget, there were over 6 000 complaints against members of the SAPS this past year. Out of this budget, a good portion of R90 million has been spent on suspended SAPS members and R2 million for Jackie Selebi.
There are police stations that are in a pitiful state of disrepair, and we know there are SAPS members with virtually no equipment at all. Poor training, poor equipment provision, poor police stations and the enormously expensive and totally discredited 10111 call centres are also provided for by this R46 billion budget. An amount of R6 million has been spent in Gauteng alone, and the Auditor-General says 79% of the calls are abandoned. It pays for a damning R7,5 million and 400-page report that revealed the truth about the dysfunctionality of the police's legal services division. This is the same division that racked up R46 million in legal fees - twice the amount paid out in settlements.
The firearm legislation is an extremely expensive failure. The Police Ministry faces a Constitutional Court challenge while its own members lost 2 500 weapons last year. Despite this budget, there is only an 11% chance of conviction if a criminal murders someone. The forensic science laboratory has backlogs running into tens of thousands of samples.
We have SAPS members unable to write dockets correctly, 5 200 SAPS members without driving licences and over 2 500 lost dockets. An extraordinary amount of the budget money was also paid out to civilians who were abused by the police. Our land borders are undercapacitated by 71%, and this budget cuts the border budget by 3,23%.
Finally comes the news that the second largest increase goes to protection services for the so-called VIPs. Under no circumstances will the DA support this budget.
Madam Chairperson, Acting President, Ministers, Deputy Ministers and Members of Parliament, Cope raised the issue of the underfunding of the detective section and crime intelligence, and the state of the forensic science laboratory which is on the verge of chaos at the moment.
We must say that we are happy with the commitment made by the Minister during the debate. But Cope calls on the Minister to address these issues urgently if we are to bring down the levels of crime in this country. Cope will then support the budget. I thank you.
Chairperson, firstly, the victim facilities within police stations are not equipped to look after rape victims and women who come to report cases at police stations. Secondly, we are saying that the police have been shot at and they have also been shooting. Therefore, they have to look at section 49 of the Criminal Procedure Act. We are glad that the Minister has talked about it to ensure that the police are protected.
Lastly, it must be ensured that there is equipment in the police service so that they can do their job properly and functionally. The national commissioner must be appointed as soon as possible. Thank you.
We in the ACDP had planned to support Budget Vote No 22 until we heard about the shocking reports of police corruption and the manipulation of statistics to make it look as if they were winning the war on crime. Of even greater concern are reports that about 50 rape cases at four police stations in the Western Cape were never investigated. This is very serious and should not be condoned by all those who are opposed to sexual violence and the abuse of women and children.
In Gauteng and KwaZulu-Natal, the ICD - we are told - is investigating six police stations that, among other things, are accused of purposefully failing to fill in dockets correctly and reducing serious crimes to lesser charges. This is corruption of the worst order. We expect the Minister to leave no stone unturned until all those who are perpetuating these heinous crimes are flushed from the system.
The ACDP will not be supporting this Vote until such shocking corruption in the SAPS is eradicated. We need integrity in the police department so that they can win the trust and confidence of members of the public. Thank you.
Chairperson, in the budget speech last year, I said that the biggest threat to the security of a country is when the Minister of Police is in a state of denial about this matter of crime. I must say to the hon Minister that his predecessor actually even told me that I must stop complaining about crime or I must leave the country. It is quite interesting - I told him that I would not leave the country - I am still in Parliament, but I do not see him in Parliament anymore. So, maybe there is a lesson to be learned from this. [Laughter.]
I must say that the present Minister is making the right noises and sounds as far as crime is concerned.
Ek wil s dat dit is wat die mense wil hoor. Ons in die VF Plus wil vir die agb Minister s dat ons hom sal ondersteun in hierdie begrotingsdebat en hierdie begroting. Ons gaan kyk of hy dit wat hy s hy gaan doen, in die praktyk deurvoer. Dit was 'n fout om byvoorbeeld die Skerpioene te vervang met die Valke. Dit was 'n politieke besluit. Ek wil vandag vir u s: As u sukses wil behaal, moet u nie politieke besluite neem nie, u moet meriete besluite neem. Dan gaan daar vordering wees om misdaad behoorlik in Suid- Afrika te bekamp. Dan sal u sukses h en dan sal die lewe in Suid-Afrika vir almal beter word. Ek dank u. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)
[I want to say that that is what people want to hear. We in the FF Plus want to say to the hon Minister that we will support him in this budget debate and this budget. We want to see whether he will do in practice what he uttered in theory. For instance, it was a mistake to replace the Scorpions with the Hawks. It was a political decision. I want to say to you today: If you want to be successful, do not make political decisions; rather make decisions based on merit. Then there will be progress with regard to the successful combating of crime in South Africa. Then you will be successful and then life in South Africa will improve for everyone. I thank you.]
Chairperson, Acting President, as the ANC, we support this Budget Vote. We believe that it talks to the priority issues as raised by the Department of Police's strategic plan, the 2009 ANC manifesto and the President's state of the nation address. The fight against crime remains a key priority, hence the department receives the highest percentage budget increase within the justice, crime prevention and security, JCPS, cluster. This clearly indicates the commitment of the ANC to fighting and combating crime.
The budget promotes the following: community participation in the fight against crime; the use of technological measures such as DNA collection at crime scenes; the revamping of the criminal justice system; capacitating the newly established Directorate for Priority Crime Investigation units, whose focus is on combating organised crime and corruption; the strengthening of crime intelligence, whose budget is increased and indicates the proactive and preventative approach that the department is embarking on; and the strengthening of measures to fight crime against children and women. Above all, the department continues to receive a clean audit opinion, which is appreciated. The department is committed to improving matters raised by the Auditor-General.
Some amongst us here were socialised over a long period of time just to criticise the ANC, and we respect that. We, as the ANC, will focus on bringing a better life to all the people of South Africa. Together we will work towards achieving a crime-free South Africa. Once more, the ANC supports this Budget Vote. I thank you. [Applause.]
Division demanded.
The House divided. AYES - 263: Abram, S; Adams, P E; Adams, L H; Ainslie, A R; Baloyi, M R; Bam-Mugwanya, V; Bapela, K O; Bhengu, P; Bhoola, R B; Bikani, F C; Blaai, B C; Bogopane-Zulu, H I; Bonhomme, T J; Booi, M S; Borman, G M; Boshigo, D F; Botha, T; Botha, Y R; Burgess, C V; Buthelezi, M G; Carrim, Y I; Cebekhulu, R N; Chikunga, L S; Chiloane, T D; Chohan, F I; Coleman, E M; Cronin, J P; Cwele, S C; Dambuza, B N; Dandala, H M; Davies, R H; De Lange, J H; Dhlamini, B W; Diale, L N; Dikgacwi, M M; Dlamini-Zuma, N C; Dlulane, B N; Dubazana, Z S; Dube, M C; Dunjwa, M L; Ebrahim, E I; Farisani, T S; Fihla, N B; Fransman, M L; Frolick, C T; Fubbs, J L; Gasebonwe, T M A; Gcume, N P; Gcwabaza, N E; Gelderblom, J P; George, M E; Gigaba, K M N; Gina, N; Godongwana, E; Gololo, C L; Gona, M F; Goqwana, M B; Greyling, L W; Groenewald, P J; Gumede, D M; Gungubele, M; Gxowa, N B; Hajaig, F; Hanekom, D A; Hogan, B A; Holomisa, S P; Jacobus, L; Jeffery, J H; Joemat- Pettersson, T M; Johnson, M; Kekana, C D; Kenye, T E; Khoarai, L P; Kholwane, S E; Khunou, N P; Kilian, J D; Komphela, B M; Koornhof, N J J v R; Kota-Fredericks, Z A; Kotsi, C M P; Kubayi, M T; Landers, L T; Lekgetho, G; Line, H; Lishivha, T E; Luthuli, A N; Luyenge, Z; Maake, J J; Mabasa, X; Mabedla, N R; Mabuza, M C; Mac Kenzie, G P D; Madasa, Z L; Madikizela- Mandela, N W; Madlala, N M; Mafolo, M V; Magagula, V V; Magama, H T; Magau, K R; Magazi, M N; Magwanishe, G; Mahlangu-Nkabinde, G L; Makasi, X C; Makhuba, H N; Makhubela-Mashele, L S; Makhubele, Z S; Malale, M I; Malgas, H H; Maluleka, H P; Maluleke, J M; Manamela, K B; Manana, M C; Mandela, Z M D; Manganye, J; Mangena, M S; Manuel, T A; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Martins, B A D; Masango, F T-T; Mashatile, P; Mashiane, L M; Mashigo, R J; Mashishi, A C; Masutha, T M; Mataboge, D K; Mathebe, D H; Mathebe, P M; Mathibela, N F; Matladi, M N; Matlanyane, H F; Matshoba, J M; Maunye, M M; Mavunda, D W; Mbili, M E; Mc Gluwa, J J; Mda, A; Mdaka, N M; Mdakane, M R; Mdladlana, M M S; Mentor, M P; Mjobo, L N; Mkhize, H B; Mkhize, L N; Mkhulusi, N N P; Mlambo, E M; Mlangeni, A; Mmusi, S G; Mnguni, P B; Mnisi, N A; Mocumi, P A; Molebatsi, M A; Moloi-Moropa, J C; Morutoa, M R; Moss, L N; Motimele, M S; Motlanthe, K P; Motshekga, M A; Motshekga, M S; Mpontshane, A M; Msimang, C T; Msweli, H S; Mthethwa, E M; Mthethwa, E N; Mtshali, E; Mufamadi, T A; Mulder, C P; Mushwana, F F; Muthambi, A F; Nchabeleng, M E; Ndabandaba, L B G; Ndabeni, S T; Ndlovu, V B; Nel, A C; Nelson, W J; Nene, N M; Newhoudt- Druchen, W S; Ngcobo, B T; Ngcobo, E N N; Ngele, N J; Ngonyama, L S; Ngwenya, W; Ngwenya-Mabila, P C; Nhanha, M A A; Nhlengethwa, D G; Njikelana, S J; Njobe, M A; Nkwinti, G E; Nonkonyana, M; November, N T; Ntapane, S Z; Ntuli, B M; Ntuli, Z C; Nxesi, T W; Nyalungu, R E; Nyama, M M A; Nyanda, S; Nyekemba, E; Oosthuizen, G C; Padayachie, R L; Pandor, G N M; Peters, E D; Petersen-Maduna, P; Phaahla, M J; Phaliso, M N; Pilusa- Mosoane, M E; Pule, D D; Radebe, B A; Radebe, G S; Radebe, J T; Ramatlhodi, N A; Ramodibe, D M; Rantsolase, M A; Rasool, E; Saal, G; Schneemann, G D; Sefularo, M; Segale-Diswai, M J; Selau, G J; Sexwale, T M G; Shabangu, S; Shiceka, S; Shilowa, M S; Sibanyoni, J B; Sibhida, N N; Singh, N; Sisulu, L N; Sithole, S C N; Sizani, P S; Skosana, J J; Skosana, M B; Smith, P F; Smith, V G; Snell, G T; Sogoni, E M; Sosibo, J E; Sotyu, M M; Stofile, M A; Suka, L; Sulliman, E M; Sunduza, T B; Surty, M E; Thabethe, E; Thobejane, S G; Tinto, B; Tlake, M F; Tsebe, S R; Tseke, G K; Tsenoli, S L; Tshivhase, T J; Tshwete, P; Tsotetsi, D R; Turok, B; Twala, N M; Vadi, I; Van der Merwe, J H; Van der Merwe, S C; Van Schalkwyk, M C J; Williams, A J; Xaba, P P; Xasa, T; Yengeni, L E; Zikalala, C N Z; Zondi, K M.
NOES - 68: Boinamo, G G; Bosman, L L; Carter, D; Coetzee, T W; Davidson, I O; De Freitas, M S F; Doman, W P; Dreyer, A M; Du Toit, N D; Dudley, C; Duncan, P C; Ellis, M J; Farrow, S B; Figlan, A M; Fritz, A T; George, D T; James, W G; Kalyan, S V; Kganare, D A; Kloppers-Lourens, J C; Kohler- Barnard, D; Kopane, S P; Krumbock, G R; Lamoela, H; Lee, T D; Lotriet, A; Louw, A; Lovemore, A T; Madisha, W M; Marais, S J F; Masango, S J; Maynier, D J; Meshoe, K R J; Michael, N W A; Mnqasela, M; Mokgalapa, S; Molao, S K; More, E; Morgan, G R; Motau, S C; Mubu, K S; Ntshiqela, P; Pretorius, P J C; Rabie, P J; Rabotapi, M W; Schmidt, H C; Schmidt, J; Selfe, J; Shinn, M R; Smiles, D C; Smuts, M; Steele, M H; Steyn, A; Steyn, A C; Swart, M; Swart, S N; Swathe, M M; Terblanche, J F; Trollip, R A P; Van Dalen, P; Van Den Berg, N J; Van der Linde, J J; Van der Westhuizen, A P; Van Dyk , S M; Van Schalkwyk, H C; Vukuza-Linda, N Y; Waters, M; Wenger, M.
Vote accordingly agreed to.
Vote No 23 - Agriculture - put.
Declarations of vote:
Madam Chair, hon members of the House, the DA will support this Vote, but we would like to note the following issues. On the reshuffling of the Department of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries, I would like to point out that the previous Department of Agriculture and Land Affairs was divided into two separate departments, and, with the addition of Forestry and Fisheries to the Department of Agriculture, a whole new dispensation was created with no clear indication of how resources and personnel would be allocated.
Noting that, the new Minister's attitude to taking charge of the challenges with regard to securing food self-sufficiency and rural development needs time before it can be judged.
The DA believes that the department needs to develop and facilitate the implementation of appropriate policies and targeted programmes, aimed at promoting equitable access to the agricultural sector and to promote shared growth and commercial viability of emerging farmers.
Furthermore, government must have a clear regulatory framework based on the free-market system to regulate and announce investment in the sector. We also note that the performance and delivery of the previous Minister was poor, and, if we had to judge her department's performance the DA would have seriously considered opposing the vote.
As a result of the previous Minister's confrontational stance to commercial agriculture, we have seen a huge disinvestment and decline in employment, as well as an exodus of producers from this important sector. The DA seriously urges government to improve its appraisal of the sector, giving attention to a more balanced focus on economic viability of the sector versus implementing its transformation strategy. Sufficient resources need to be allocated to this important sector to achieve its objectives, to improve food production, job creation and rural development. I thank you. [Applause.]
Chair, agriculture plays a central role in rural development and, with increasing numbers of people benefiting from land redistribution, support initiatives are critical. Targets in supporting emerging farmers proved unrealistic in 2008-09, as just under half of the 80 000 targeted were actually supported. Despite the encouraging things you have said, hon Minister, with a 10% drop in the budget, allocations for post-settlement support will need more than ever to be used effectively and efficiently.
The drastically increased budget for consultancies and professional services raises some concerns. However, the ACDP acknowledges that farmers are going to need professional assistance to ensure sustainability.
With the present economic downturn the ACDP is particularly concerned that agricultural starter packs for household vegetable gardens must not be cut back as rising food prices threaten food security.
Job creation - another national priority - underlines the importance of not undervaluing the role of agriculture in our economy. The number of jobs per unit of investment is higher in agriculture than in any other sector, and supports 8,5 million people.
Despite promises made in the Maputo Declaration in 2003 to increase the allocation in the national Budget for agriculture to 10% within five years, agriculture comprises less than 1% of our national Budget. Globally, there is a lack of disaster preparedness and experts say that South Africa is no more prepared than other nations.
The ACDP will support this budget, although it does appear inadequate to meet the huge demands on the Department of Agriculture. I thank you.
Chairperson, on the first point, what has become very clear in talking to this budget is that the mid-term budget review will certainly address some of the concerns raised by the hon member Dr Bosman.
On the second point, he talks about a country that must allow a free-market economy, as if it has worked anywhere. South Africa continues to be that mixed economy.
At the Congress of the People in 1955 ... [Interjections.] ... the people declared that the land shall be shared by those who work it. That was at the Congress of the People.
In pursuance of this objective as adopted by the department, the ANC reiterates its support for this Budget Vote, for we believe that such a budget must be about food for all, and the doubling of the agricultural sector's 10% share of formal employment.
As a result, the ANC and its alliance partners will continue their campaign against the escalation of food prices, and shall hold those responsible for conniving accountable. The comprehensive agricultural support programmes must be enhanced to deliver food and jobs as a result.
Finally, South Africa must deliver on its commitment in the Maputo Declaration of contributing 10% of its GDP towards research and development in agriculture. For those wishing to divide us, please be assured that we are united. I thank you. [Applause.]
Vote agreed to.
Vote No 24 - Communications - put.
Declarations of vote:
Chairperson, as I said in my first speech in Parliament, Budget Vote No 24 is a comedy of errors. The Department of Communications is wasting money. Nearly R100 million is wasted on policy development. They change the policies about six times a week. The department is supposed to give direction in the communications world and to the government on how to communicate with the people of South Africa. It cannot fulfil that basic requirement. It is also wasting nearly R100 million on consultants and cannot even manage to assist the beleaguered