QUESTIONS FOR ORAL REPLY CLUSTER 3 - GOVERNANCE

Thank you very much, hon Chairperson and hon members, now that I'm visible. I should start by saying yes; government is making progress in addressing the concerns raised by traditional leaders regarding the provision of tools of trade. The department has undertaken the following activities in this regard: One, the development of a

framework for the provisioning of enabling resources for traditional leaders which was approved by the Co-Operative Governance and Traditional Affairs Ministers and Ministers and Members of Executive Councils Meeting, Minmec, in 2013. Various provinces are currently providing some of the tools of trade, provided for in the aforementioned framework, but at varying levels leading to inconsistencies across provinces.

Secondly, to address the inconsistencies on the provision of tools of trade across provinces, the department is currently reviewing the 2013 framework and has developed a draft handbook for traditional leaders. Consultation processes on the draft handbook with the Independent Commission for the Remuneration of Public Office Bearers, provinces and other relevant departments are currently underway. The department has planned to finalise this consultation processes before the end of 2019-20 financial year. Thank you very much.

Thank you House Chair, for the opportunity. As the Deputy Minister has mentioned the framework, I want to check whether the framework for the promotion of enabling resources for traditional leaders has been successful in creating and enabling framework, in addressing the concerns of unequal treatment by

traditional leaders, and providing norms and standards and uniformity in resource provision for traditional leaders.

Thank you, Chairperson and hon member. I should indicate that the reason that there is an introduction of the handbook for traditional leadership is in response to the concerns that have been raised about the unequal implementation of the framework that was developed in 2013, in terms of how the respective provinces are implementing and responding to the provision of tools of trade. In essence, I'm acknowledging that, in fact, implementation has not been uniform throughout the provinces and through the handbook. We believe that we can facilitate equity in the provision of tools of trade for traditional leaders. Thank you very much.

Thank you Chairperson. I just want to find out from the Deputy Minister whether it is all well and good to give the traditional leaders tools of trade. However, is the government working with the traditional leaders to prepare them so that they play a role to ensure good governance, deepening democracy when we have finalised the amendment of the section 25 of the Constitution to expropriate land without compensation. Thank you.

I will leave it to the Deputy Minister.

Hon Chairperson, I'm not sure if it's related to the original question.

Jaa, no, that is why I leave it to you if you ... the supplementary question must be linked to the original question. That is a new question. Hon Nchabeleng!

Thank you, hon Chair. I just want to check the Deputy Minister for my own clarity. I'm happy that there is something on paper that suggests how traditional leaders should be remunerated. I just want to check ... [Interjections.]

Closer to your microphone. Closer to your microphone for the voice.

Okay. I just want to check for myself. What inform this? Is it informed by the Independent Commission for the Remuneration of Public Office Bearers, or is it taken from ...

[Inaudible.] Where is that document based on - the handbook? I just want to ... [Inaudible.]

Thank you very much, hon Chairperson and hon Nchabeleng. The remuneration of traditional leaders is governed by the Commission on Remuneration of Public Office Bearers. The matter of tools and trade, however, has been dealt with separately and the intention is to create a uniform mechanism and in consultation with the commission so that we can create a standardised provision of tools of trade and that this would be governed by, therefore, the handbook, and in essence the handbook would have done in consultation with the commission.

Thank you, hon Chair. Hon Deputy Minister, should traditional leaders be treated the same way as any state-owned entities and will also receive governmental funding, specifically in the required submission of financial statements? If not, why not? If so, how do you intend on regulating this? Thank you.

Thank you, hon Chairperson. My understanding of the issue and the question is

that there are two parts to the question. The first relates to the provision of a budget to traditional leaders which necessarily is not covered within the current question. The issue is in relation to the second part of the question that I think relates to the provision of tools of trade which would be governed by the aforementioned framework that was agreed to and subsequent to this would be govern by the draft handbook that would be in place. In terms of the handbook it is anticipated that this would include mechanisms for accountability.

Question 125:

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL

AFFAIRS: Hon Chairperson, hon members, government has recently adopted and is rolling out the District Development model underpinned by the Back to Basics programme which will enhance and strengthen support provided to municipalities by all of government over the short to medium and indeed the long term. The department continues to support municipalities in collaboration with the provincial Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs departments, Treasury and other relevant stakeholders with the implementation of the pillars of the Back to Basics programme.

The primary objective of the Back to Basics Local Government Improvement programme is creating well functioning municipalities that serve their communities better. It encompasses the following five pillars: firstly, put people and their concerns first and ensure constant contact with communities through effective public participation platforms. Secondly, creates conditions from decent living by consistently delivering municipal services of the right quality and standards. Thirdly, be well governed and demonstrate good governance and administration. Fourthly, ensure sound financial management and accounting and prudently managed resources so as to sustainably deliver services and to bring development to communities and lastly, build and maintain sound institutional and administrative capabilities, administered and managed by dedicated and skilled personnel at all levels.

The Back to Basics approach has been implemented in municipalities with various successes in relation to the key elements underpinning the five pillars of Back to Basics. Non-performance of municipalities is managed by the local government performance regulations for municipal managers and managers directly accountable to municipal managers of 2006. Thank you very much, Chair.

Hon Chair, Deputy Minister, over the next Medium-Term Framework period, all municipalities and governmental departments are required to cut the budget with 5% in the first year, 6% in the second year and 7% in the third year, according to the Treasury. Hon Deputy Minister, you are required to cut R14,5 billion. How do you intend to cut this budget? Will you communicate the how part of the commitment and would you commit not to cut infrastructure?

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF COOPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL

AFFAIRS: Hon Chairperson, we are awaiting final confirmation from Treasury as to the projected budget cuts on which basis we will be able to make decisions. We would advise accordingly. Thank you very much.

Hon Chairperson, hon Minister, on the subject of sustainability our tax and levy moral is based on the principle that one pays tax for services received as well as some of our taxes are used to provide services to those who cannot afford such services. One can thus argue that this is called a responsible state. Overtaxed South Africans are increasingly feeling marginalised from services but there is a growing but concerning idea of a tax revolt. Minister, these are overtaxed residents asking why they should continue paying taxes and levies if it does not show any return in

the form of services they are paying for which have been looted by politicians and officials.

These are questions by the working class people because they pay their taxes and levies but they are affectively overtaxed and now even more so with new levies and fees suggested by the fiscal commission. Minister, considering that paying South Africans are increasingly being alienated from basic services. What is your department doing to ensure that the tax fountain in municipalities maintained by those South Africans do not run dry?

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF COOPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL

AFFAIRS: Hon Chairperson, I think it is important to indicate that in terms of the Local Government system there are different revenue streams starting with Property Tax which is governed by the Municipal Property Rates Act which indicates that all property shall be valued and rated and that ratings should be done in an equitable way, in terms of the categories that people pay for, for Property Tax and that this should be used for purposes of providing services.

The other services, however, are in many ways trading services. The provision of water is on the basis of water supplied, utilised and therefore billing happens in line with consumption. The same applies

to electricity. In essence when we deal with trade and services in particular, we need to acknowledge that this has to do with the municipalities' ability to procure the water from the water board and to be able to sell such to the consumer. Therefore, we need to look at it as a trading service and we cannot therefore contend that it constitutes over taxation because it is essence a trading service provided by the municipality. That not withstanding, it is important to indicate that the department is currently working with various municipalities in terms of the simplified revenue plan to ensure that we are able to collect revenue so that there is equity in relation to payment but also in the relation to expenditure by the municipality. Thank you very much.

Hon House Chair, Deputy Minister, the Back to Basics failed based on wrong assumptions. The assumption that is wrong is that to fix the administration in municipalities and local government would work. That is a wrong assumption but the reality is that municipalities are funded along racial lines and apartheid spatial planning with the assumption that they have the ability to collect the revenue.

The 9% that is allocated to municipalities is not sufficient for those municipalities. To make the Back to Basics work is to go and

do an assessment on the Back to Basics and come up with a different initiative. I cannot understand why in the municipalities we still outsource, cleaners and securities. Why all of the above services are not in sourced in the municipalities? We need to start there to fix the Back to Basics.

Make sure that all these senior managers who were implicated are in jail and we stop corruption. So, why are we not doing that as local government to fix these municipalities and go back to the Back to Basics? Thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF COOPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL

AFFAIRS: Hon Chairperson, as indicated in my original reply I indicated that the Back to Basics is being implemented in all the provinces in our country to ensure that we meet the objectives. I think it is important to state here that in fact Back to Basics programme is premised on the White Paper on Local Government. It says that we must put people first and it cannot be wrong that we continue initiating efforts that ensure that people are put first; that we deliver services; we have good governance and sound financial management and that we have sound institutional and administrative capability. In that regard I think that it would be remise to suggest that in fact Back to Basics is not supporting

local governments to be able to do the things that I have just raised with regards to what it seeks to achieve.

As to the mechanisms of implementation and organisational design, that ultimately remains the prerogative of the individual municipalities as to the institutional mechanisms that they adopt in the implementation of the various services that they provide. Thank you very much.

Hon Deputy Minister, I think I like what you say about the Back to Basics especially one of its pillars of institutional development. Is there any programme of government to focus specifically at rural municipalities to ensure that we strengthen them and therefore the skills and expertise are there at municipal level are retained especially for the rural local municipalities?

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF COOPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL

AFFAIRS: Hon Dodovu, I prefaced the reply to the question by talking to the District Development Model, particularly because it is intended through the District Development Model that we would do two primary things. The first one is to create the mechanism of integrated government planning, budgeting and execution of

programmes. So we are looking at it within the context of it being delivery within the geographic space, which is the district.

The second one relates to the support being provided to the local government. Whoever identified that many of the municipalities particularly the rural municipalities do not have the institutional capacity or resources to be able to recruit appropriately to ensure that they are able to execute the executive obligations.

So, through the District Development Model we would also be building the capacity that would be needed to support the local governments to ensure that they are able to implement their work. Depending on the capacity that exists in the districts we would create almost a shed service for the respective districts that can be accessed by the local governments and the district municipalities in terms of their ability to implement projects. That capacity would range from financial management, project management, town planning engineering services and other services that are so needed in particular in our poorer district municipal areas. Thank you very much.

Question 118:

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL

AFFAIRS (Mr M Tau): Hon House Chairperson and hon members, section

173 of the Municipal Finance Act provides that the accounting officer of a municipality is guilty of an offence if he or she deliberately or in a grossly negligent way fails to, amongst other things, take reasonable steps to implement the municipality's supply management chain management policy; take all reasonable steps to prevent unauthorised irregular or fruitless and wasteful expenditure; and take reasonable steps to prevent corruptive practices.

Section 57(a) of the Municipal Systems Act, as amended in 2011, empowered the Minister of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, Cogta, to establish a record of staff dismissed with serious misconducts such as fraud, corruption, financial misconduct and bridge of the code of conduct for municipal staff. As of 9 March 2019 this database had 290 municipal employees dismissed for financial misconduct, fraud and corruption.

Since 9 March 2019, the 2011 Municipal Systems Amendment Act together with the provisions of section 57(a) have been declared invalid by the Constitutional Court resulting in, inter alia, legal uncertainty regarding the enforcement of the latter provisions.

In order to provide guidance and to ensure that municipalities continue to comply with the Municipal Systems Act and all amendments made prior to the 2011 amendment Act, the department will be issuing a circular to all provinces and municipalities outlining the provisions of the Municipal Systems Act that are not affected by the invalidity of the 2011 amendment Act.

The performance of senior managers is dealt with in terms of the performance management regulations of 2006. The objective of these regulations is to ensure that all senior managers of a municipality participate in the overall performance management of the municipality in order to maximise the ability of the municipality as a whole to achieve its objectives and improve the quality of life to its communities.

Chapter 3 of the disciplinary regulations for senior managers provides procedures for dealing with substandard or poor performance by senior managers that may lead to dismissals by the municipality. Thank you very much.

House Chairperson, to the Deputy Minister, I want to know when does database with the blacklisted managers who have been dishonourably discharged will be available where we can view it. If

you can supply us with more information with regards to that it would be appreciated. Thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL

AFFAIRS (Mr M Tau): Hon House Chairperson, as indicated, we will be issuing a circular to indicate how the database would be implemented going forward and that should indicate how such should be accessible, in particular to the municipalities that will be employing these individuals. The database is being held but then there is an impasse that has been created by the court and the rulings of the court. Thank you very much.

IsiNdebele:

Sihlalo Wendlu, ngithome ngokuthokoza ipendulo ehle. Umbuzo wami wamarherho uphendulekile ekutheni sesikuphi kwanje. Engifuna ukukwazi ... ngibuza ngombana ...

English:

... two days ago, as a Committee on Appropriations, we had a presentation by Treasury on the state of municipalities. Most of the municipalities are in distress and are deteriorating.

IsiNdebele:

Engifuna ukukwazi kukuthi: Njengombana nani nimbuso niyabona bonyana kunomraro enjanga lo, likhona irherho nanyana iplani yokuthi sizowukhupha njani umbuso ebujameni okibo lo? Silila khulu ngabaphathi babomasipala, ngibo abasenzela phasi kwangathi siphetjhukelwe kwanje. Ngiyathokoza.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL

AFFAIRS (Mr M Tau): Hon Chairperson and hon members, I think it is important to indicate that there is a minimum competency requirement for senior managers in local government. The minimum competency requirements dictate that they should have particular skills and capabilities so that they are recruited as senior managers in local government.

The second is as indicated in my earlier reply. It is important that when such are not performing in line with performance requirements that the municipality is able to apply the regulations that indicate how performance management should be executed. The performance management regulations of 2006 indicate what steps the municipalities should take to ensure performance management and hold these to account.

I am therefore responding to the question in two ways; the first one is about recruiting people appropriately skilled and the second one is ensuring that the performance management system is applied through the regulations if there is underperformance. What is important is that we need to continuously monitor how the municipalities are implementing these regulations, which we would continue improving on, in line with the back to basics approach. Thank you very much.

Xitsonga:

Ndza khensa, Mutshamaxitulu. Xandla xa Holobye, timasipala hinkwato ta le Limpopo ti na swivandla swo pfuleka eka swiyimo swa nkoka. Leswi swi tsandzisa timasipala ku tirha hi ku hetiseka. Ndzi lava ku tiva leswaku xana i yini xi mi tsandzisaka ku siva swivandla leswi? Ndza khensa.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL

AFFAIRS (Mr M Tau): Hon Chairperson, I might be lost in translation, I got about 50% of the question.

I can assist you: A lot of municipalities in Limpopo have acting people in key positions. What is it that you are doing to address that?

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL

AFFAIRS (Mr M Tau): Hon Chairperson, thank you for the assistance

... [Interjections.]

Mm ... vacant and acting. [Interjections.] You don't even know your language. Hon Deputy Minister ...

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL

AFFAIRS (Mr M Tau): Hon Chairperson, I think I should indicate that we are also concerned about the levels of vacancies in local government. In line with back to basics, we continue to ensure that we work with provinces and the back to basics teams to ensure that municipalities are able to recruit appropriate people. We do keep a database and record of those municipalities that have not recruited senior people at the appropriate level and ensure that we work with them to facilitate that they recruit appropriately.

I want to make a point of emphasis: Ultimately, the responsibility to recruit is that of the municipality. Our responsibility is to ensure that we exercise adequate oversight and in the process advice the relevant authority, including the provinces, that the

municipality should take the necessary steps to recruit the senior managers that are so required.

At the second level I think it is partly in acknowledgement of this reality that we are also implementing the district development model that should supplement the capacity that is there in our local authorities. Thank you very much.

COMMITTEES (Mr A J Nyambi): The last

supplementary question will be from hon Boshoff, but before that, hon Ministers and Deputy Ministers that will be going to the podium, there is that facility there in case ... Afrikaans is on channel one; English two, Xitsonga three, Ndebele four, Xhosa five, isiZulu six, Sotho seven, Sepedi eight, Setswana nine, siSwati 10 and Tshivenda 11.

So, as we know that we do not have any problem, we promote all the languages. In case they use a language that you might not be comfortable with then you have that.

House Chair, good afternoon to the Deputy Minister. Not so long ago the President stated that all officials that are found to be corrupt must be held to account. What I would like to

know from you, Minister, is whether you are going to take this call by the President seriously and whether you, today, will undertake to table a full comprehensive report to this select committee and the extent of the maladministration. I would also like to know how you are going to hold people accountable or how you will charge them according to or before Chapter 9 and 10 institutions. Thank you very much.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL

AFFAIRS (Mr M Tau): Hon House Chairperson, as indicated, we, as a department, hold the database of those that are acting in a manner that is contravention of the Supply Chain Management Regulations Act and a manner that is corrupt or are guilty of financial misconduct so that an appropriate action is taken against them and that these are not recruited into other municipalities. This database has been kept and has worked to a great deal in assisting municipalities to identify those individuals and intervene appropriately.

In line with the legal opinion that we have sought with regards to the application of the database we should be able to indicate to the select committee the process going forward as soon as we have provide clarity in the circular project as to how the database would

be managed, controlled and how this information would be shared with relevant stakeholders. Thank you very much.

Question 113:

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL

AFFAIRS: Hon Chairperson, the department has through the Municipal Infrastructure Support Agent, MISA, deployed resources to 87 municipalities to enhance municipal capacity assessment, improved municipal infrastructure planning and operation and maintenance. The resources are in the form of nine chief civil engineers, 34 civil engineers and technologies, 14 town and regional planners and nine provincial managers. These teams are supported by a back office of sector specialists in water, sanitation, energy, operation and maintenance and solid waste management. Eighteen water service authorities in the district municipalities are supported through MISA's infrastructure inspectorate to assess the functionality of water and sanitation infrastructure.

The OR Tambo, Sekhukhune and Amathole District Municipalities are supported through the implementation of the regional management support programme. Thirty municipalities are supported with the development and implementation of the Spatial Planning and Land Use Management Act 16 of 2013, compliant plans and the department is

supporting selected municipalities to address gaps within revenue management through the development of simplified revenue plans to improve the quality of data, reduce municipal-consumer debt and increase collection of revenue. Thirty municipalities were assisted in the prior year and 35 municipalities are currently being assisted.

The department has developed prototype staff establishment to assist municipalities within the administrative and financial capacity to establish and organise the administrations in such a manner that are responsive to the needs of communities. The objective of these prototypes is to establish uniform standards for review of municipal staff establishment while ensuring efficiency and effectiveness in municipalities.

The department will also promulgate regulations, setting out uniform standards for staff members below the management echelon. These regulations will provide a governance framework for the appointment of municipal employees with a necessary technical and professional skills and capabilities. It could also incorporate a competency framework in occupational classes in local government that regulates minimum standards for recruitment, selection and appointment. And will create a career public service and foster all municipal

employees to participate in the performance management system of a municipality in order to maximise the ability of the municipality as a whole to achieve its objectives.

We will also ensure that municipal employees who are not performing optimally are held accountable. Strengthening checks and balances by ensuring that municipalities comply with the minimum competency requirements and providing for consequences of appointments made in contradiction of the procedures and criteria as set out in the amendment act.

Furthermore, the support is provided through the assessment of audit action plans for adequacy on the implementation of audit action plans through participation in intergovernmental forums. In addition, the sector departments within the local government space convene and engage on core areas which include monitoring compliance with the Municipal Financial Management Act, MFMA, and its supporting regulations.

On the issues raised by the Auditor-General, AG, and financial recovery plans, the attendance of Municipal Audit Committees and audit committee meetings where root causes of issues raised by the

AG are discussed and the review of annual financial statements are largely done at a provincial level.

The department, in collaboration with National Treasury and South African Local Government Association, Salga, developed a guideline on municipal public audit committees to assist the MPEX to perform their oversight and other related responsibilities which include reviewing and recommending to council, actions or otherwise relating to the expenditure and conclusion of unauthorised irregular and fruitless expenditure, UIFE and [Inaudible]. The implementation of the district delivery model, underpinned by back to basics programme offers a ready platform to address the systemic challenges to including concerns raised by the AG in relation to municipal performance, thank you very much.

Hon Chair, hon Deputy Minister, despite all these concerns by the Auditor-General, AG, there seems to be a problem because this "UIFE" as you call them are sky rocketed and they go up all the time, unauthorised expenditure, fruitless expenditure, irregular expenditure and so on and so forth. It would seem that these officials act with impunity because there is no action that is taken against those who are responsible. As I said, they have styled

it now. I only knew UIF as the Unemployment Insurance Fund, but now it is called "unauthorised irregular and fruitless expenditure".

What are the practical actions that the department is taking to ameliorate the situation?

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL

AFFAIRS: Hon Chairperson, I think in the first instance it is important to indicate the approach that says we need to enhance the support that we provide to municipalities particularly in relation to those that do not have the requisite capability and capacity to recruit people that have the necessary skills and that is why we are implementing the district development model. So as a means intervention, I think in the first instance, we have a duty - both as provincial and national government to undertake our constitutional and obligation in terms of section 154 to provide the requisite support through appropriate institutional mechanism.

The second one is about ensuring through the performance management regulations but also through the database that I referred to earlier that we are able to identify areas and instances where such are acting with impunity in a manner that undermines the control

environment in the municipality and accountability and supply-chain management.

In essence, what we are saying hon Dodovu is that, it is important that through the database that we generate, we are able to identify those and we ensure that appropriate action takes place to ensure that those officials who are in contravention are held to account. In instance where municipalities do not take the appropriate action on time, it is also important that we work with our provincial counterparts so that appropriate actions is taken in reference to amongst others the earlier decision that was made by this Council to ensure that we are able to intervene timeously to facilitate that local government does not act in a manner that is in contravention of the regulations. Thank you very much.

Hon Chair, Deputy Minister, despite the recent changes in law the Auditor-General, AG, still does not have enough teeth to hold municipalities accountable. Are you going to change the legislation to make municipalities accountable to the provincial legislatures?

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL

AFFAIRS: Hon Chairperson, I think it is important to restate that

the new act that applies to the powers of the AG is also applicable to local government. So in instances where the AG needs to facilitate appropriate action the new act would be out in place. I know that there are certain departments in the national government that have been identified as test sites for the implementation of the act, but it is also the intention of the AG to also identify municipalities where such action will be taking place. Thank you very much.

Chairperson, hon Deputy Minister, there is something we are actually not considering, and that is political interference and instability owing to infighting in councils, as well as the lack of political leadership where issues of concern were raised by the Auditor- General, AG, in the previous financial year have contributed to the dire states of municipalities. Failures by municipalities have become so bad that South Africa was forced to give the AG more authorities to take steps against officials who are to be found guilty of irregularities even though the Municipal Financial Management Act, MFMA, allows councils to take similar actions.

Deputy Minister, considering that the AG found "political infighting at council levels and interference in the administration weakened oversight and did not enable the effecting of consequences and if

the municipalities' leaders are unethical it will filter through to the lower levels of municipalities".

Considering that the AG can compile investigative reports on request would your department be willing to request the AG to fully investigate the impact of political infighting and interference in such municipalities?

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL

AFFAIRS: Hon Chairperson, I think in the first instance it is important to indicate that the conduct of political office bearers in local government is governed by the code of conduct of councillors. It is very important to ensure that this code of conduct is being adhered to, to the extent that public office bearers at the local level are held to account in line with the code of conduct. And I think that we haven't always done enough to always overseer that in fact local government implements the code of conduct and the guidelines that provides with holding to people to account.

Our responsibility ultimately, as both national and provincial governments, is to ensure that when such conduct is done in a manner that impacts negatively on local government that we take appropriate

action in terms of section 139 of the Constitution which would start with issuing directives to the council to ensure that they are able to remedy that, failure to do that would then include invoking section 139(1)(b) or section 139(1)(c). Thank you very much.

Hon Chair, has the Rapid Response technical support team been able to assist the financially distressed municipalities to develop their financial recovery plans? To what extent does that include those municipalities that were involved in the VBS Mutual Bank scandal which was of course used as an orchestrated plan to fund some politicians and political parties?

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL

AFFAIRS: Hon Chairperson, I think it is important to state that Rapid Response technical support team has been working with municipalities and assisted many of these to recover in line with the necessary requirements of the rapid response interventions that have been identified. This would include amongst others interventions with regards to improved revenue plans but also areas of improved performance with regards to the infrastructure interventions that we are utilising, MISA, as a means through which we are able to intervene in this regard.

We are working with the various provincial governments to identify in those municipalities that are impacted by the VBS saga to ensure that we are able to assist these to recover. Because one of the things we need to mitigate against this debts - whilst there could be office bearers and officials who have acted in a manner that impacts on the viability of the municipality, in the long terms, this should not be at the expense of and to the detriment of communities. So we have a collective responsibility to assist these municipalities to recover and to ensure that whilst people are held accountable that we can support them to provide the services that are so required by the communities. Thank you very much.

Question 126:

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL

AFFAIRS: Hon Chairperson, I think it is important to state in the first instance that, the Minister of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, Dr Nkosazana Dlamini-Zuma, has expressed concern at the Department of Co-Operative Governance and Traditional Affairs for its failure to submit it's annual financial statement to the Auditor-General within the required timeframe.

To this effect, the Minister called on the leadership in the department to always ensure that they comply with the relevant

prescripts relating to the submission of annual financial statements. The department, however, was unable to submit the 2018- 19 annual financial statements to the Auditor-General within the legislative timeframe which was the end of May 2019, due to outstanding information relating to the disclosure of Community Work Programme assets. However, we submitted the 2018-19 annual financial statements at the end of June 2019. Therefore, this impacted on the ability of the Auditor-General to complete their audit of the department within the prescribed timeframe.

I think it is also important to state in response to the question that, for 2015-16 and 2016-17, the annual financial statement were provided on time. With regards to 2017-18, the annual financial statements were submitted at the end of July instead of May and the main reason remains the Community Work Programme and the last number of assets and consumables administered by the implementing agents that could not be confirmed and verified for the adjustment of the annual financial statements.

The department was also unable to submit the 2018-19 annual financial statements within the legislative timeframes which is the end of May, due to the outside information and disclosure of Community Work Programme, CWP, assets, and these as indicated

earlier, were submitted at the end of June 2019. Due to the reasons given above, the department delayed the submission of the 2017-18 and 2018-19 annual financial statements and that had an impact on the Auditor-General's ability to start and complete the audit processes within the prescribed time period.

The department is working hand in hand with National Treasury on the following: A review and monitoring of the implementation of audit action plan's technical visit; training and engagement with municipal officials; internal audit units, promoting IGRAP learning; attendance at audit steering committees and audit committees to assist in addressing the root causes of the audit findings; training of the municipal disciplinary board members; councillors serving on municipal finance committees and on Ampec. The department together with Treasury also developed a tool kit I referred to earlier, to ensure that councillors are able to undertake their responsibilities in Ampec.

Furthermore, the department assists the municipalities by institutionalising B2B Programme, post audit action plans, revenue enhancement and with the introduction of the district development model; we envisage further improvement in this regard. To a large extent I think it is important to state the point that the impact of

the Community Work Programme on the department is something that is receiving our collective intention in which both the ministry and the department, but it would be somewhat extreme to suggest that the department is dysfunctional as a result of late submission of financial statements, particularly in relation to the Community Work Programmes. Thank you very much.

Hon Deputy Minister, what is the content of the institutional initiatives and implementation plan to re-engineer, enhance and strengthen institutional governance, financial and management functionality, capability and sustainability of the national Department of Co-operative Governance to function as an effective institutional and governance custodian on the Local Government Municipal Systems Act; the Local Municipality Structures Act and the Municipal Property Rates Act and over 257 municipalities with local government in South Africa that is collapsing? Thanks.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF COOPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL

AFFAIRS: Hon Chairperson, I think I should state that the revised strategic plan of the department and the Annual Performance Plan would indicate what the department's plans are with regard to improving its performance. Thank you very much.

Deputy Minister, part of the reasons why the Department of Co- operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, CoGTA, failed in the past is the use of consultants by Minister Des Van Rooyen and Mr Jamnadas. Some of these consultants were appointed irregularly and some were even appointed to benefit those in power. Since your term started as the Deputy Minister, have you found the department competent enough to do the work or are you still using these consultants?

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL

AFFAIRS: Well, the government does continue to use consultants where skills are required to assist in relation to particular areas of skills and expertise that we might not have at that particular point in time. But with regard to the Community Work Programme in particular, I think it is important to indicate that we are talking about implementing agencies that will work on behalf of the department as an extension of the department to oversee the implementation of more than 4000 sides at which the Community Work Programme is being implemented.

So you do need some degree of external capacity that you source to implement such a massive programme with a number of sites that the programme is responsible for. Our view is that the utilisation of

consultants and external expertise should be done in a judicious manner, cognisant of the need to continuously build the necessary skills and capability in the department. Thank you very much.

Setswana:

Motlatsatona wa lefapha la Pusoselegae le Merero Ya Magosi, jaaka o setse o tlhalositse gore mo nakong e e fetileng, lo file baruni dikwalo tsa lona go sale thari, ke batla go itse fa lefapha la gago le nale le badiri ba ba nang le bokgoni kgotsa dithutego tse di maleba tsa go ka kgontsha gore boruni ba fitlhe ka nako ko go Morunikakaretso? Ba be ba tsaya dikgato morago ga go boruni ba ga Morunikakaretso. Ka gore bontsi ba nako ga ba tseye dikgato, go nna fela jalo le fa morunikakaretso a dirile dikatlenegiso, galo tseye dikgato. Jaanong ke kopa go itse gore a ban ale dithutego tse di maleba motlotlegi. Ke a leboga

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL

AFFAIRS: Hon Chairperson, I think with regard to the question of capacity, one should respond to the question in two ways. The first relate to the capacity in CWP, particularly when the programme was relocated to the department, lot of this capacity was built through the engagement of the Non-Profit Organizations, NPOs, that are

responsible for the implementation of the programme and our responsibility is to hold them to account to their performance.

One of the things that we raised with the department is that they need to ensure that we hold the NPOs to account in a much more stringent way and I can report that many of the NPOs have in fact found instances where we have either delayed payment and impose sanctions as a result of non compliance. We think that it is an important issue that we impose the necessary sanctions when there is non-compliance.

The second part of my response relates to the internal capacity from an audit point of view, and that internal capacity relates to the capacity that we have in the office of the Chief Financial Officer of the department. Now, when the CWP was relocated to Co-Operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, the department did not necessarily at the same time expand the capacity of the office Chief Financial Officer. So we are still utilising the same personnel to manage what is now a much larger programme than was initially there and that is an issue that is receiving our attention to ensure that we can deal with the limitations in now what would have been a much smaller programme having grown significantly in terms of size as a result of the inclusion of CWP.

With regard to corrective action, we do believe, and I indicated earlier, that corrective action has been taken against the NPOs that are responsible for the implementation of the programme to the extent that they are not complying according to our requirements and internally we do hold officials to account against the performance requirements of the officials in their department. Thank you very much.

Chairperson, when we talk about fit for purpose, we can never be selective. In this Western Cape, under the leadership of the then MEC of Agriculture and now the Premier Alan Winde failed to comply with the request from the Auditor-General to report according to standard format about transfer payment to Casidra Limited, who is an agency of the department. Accountability and good governance must apply to everybody across the border.

Deputy Minister, I really need to ask you this question, what is the level of improvement that the department has made in ensuring that it improves its financial viability and internal control measures particularly in addressing previous recommendations that were made by the Auditor-General? Thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF COOPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL

AFFAIRS: Hon Chairperson, I think it is important to indicate that the matter of improvement in performance has been dealt with at two levels. The first one is in line with the new tender that was issued to appoint Non- Profit Organizations. Additional requirements were placed, including the imposition of penalties in instances of non compliance and that has enabled the department to then take the corrective action that I referred to earlier.

At a second level, there is an issue about the improvement within the department to the extent that we ensure that our own officials are held to account but also that we review the audit action plan. We are currently working with the office of the Auditor-General to review the audit action plan that was provided by the department and are exercising oversight directly from the ministry to ensure that the gaps identified by the office of the Auditor-General are being resolved and that the audit action plan responds to the issues that are necessary to ensure that we overcome the challenges that we currently have in the department. Thank you very much.

Question 135:

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL

AFFAIRS: Hon Chairperson, the Ngwathe Local Municipality has a

satellite office in Mokwallo Township, situated in the town of Vredefort, which was established to bring services to the community residing in the area closer. It has been established that the satellite office was unable to render services as intended because it was utilising an old database system. They could not handle the increased demand as the community grew.

The Ngwathe Local Municipality then phased out this system and has been using a new system for at least the past two months. The new system has enabled the municipality to provide the following services in the Mokwallo office: The selling of graves; the selling of electricity; the rental of halls; and payment of other municipal services.

Given the recent developments, we will monitor the impact on service delivery to the community using Cogta's Back-to-Basics monitoring tools and the municipality will be duly engaged through the process to ensure that where gaps are identified, these are promptly addressed and additional support is provided as and when required in order to effectively provide basic services to the community of Mokwallo. Thank you very much.

Sesotho:

Modulasetulo, Motlatsa Letona, bothata bono boo batho ba Vredefort ba nang le bona, ba hore ebe ba ne ba sokola ho patala ditshebeletso ofising ya masepala lokeisheneng, bo atile haholo metse ya rona ya batho ba batsho, mme ke nahana hore tsela eo ke ho ntshetsa pele leano le neng le sebediswa ke mmuso wa pele wa kgatello. E se e ka le makeisheneng a mang ho ka ha ba jwalo, ditshebeletso di iswe bathong, hore batho ba bo rona ba batsho batle ba tsebe ho patala ditshebeletso tsa bona. Ke a leboha.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF COOPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL

AFFAIRS: Hon Chairperson, I agree with hon Moletsane that we need to ensure equitable delivery of services throughout our communities, in as much as we have a collective responsibility to ensure the financial viability of our municipalities through payment of services.

We also need to be working with our communities to ensure that these are able to contribute to the services for which the municipality provides, including - of course - rates, so that communities are able to contribute to the financial sustainability and viability of municipalities.

What we have observed with regards to Ngwathe Local Municipality in particular is that since the introduction of a new system, we are beginning to see progress, but that we would have to continuously monitor this progress. Thank you very much.

House Chair, the hon Deputy Minister, it is admirable that the EFF cares about this particular community, but we in the DA care about all communities. We care about Vredefort. We care about Thabazimbi. We care about Kuruman. We care about all the communities in this country. [Interjections.] Our question is: Do you plan on intervening in every other municipality which is not rendering services to their community and sitting in the same situation as Vredefort is sitting?

COMMITTEES: It's a comment, hon Deputy Minister!

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF COOPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL

AFFAIRS: Hon Chairperson, indeed, as public representatives and government, we have a responsibility to serve all the people of this country. The programmes that we have developed are intended to support all of local government to be able to provide services to all the people of this country. The District Development Model,

indeed, will be supporting all the local authorities in the Republic. So, we are not going to select one municipality against the other. It is applicable to everybody. Thank you very much.

IsiZulu:

Sihlalo weNdlu, ngicela ukubuza Sekela Ngqongqoshe womnyango ohloniphekile, ukuba ngabe umnyango ukwazile yini ukubona omasipala abahlulekayo ukuhambisa izidingonqangi kubantu? Uma kunjalo, kungani pho kuqhubeka izinkinga kulabo masipala abayisishiyagalolunye? Uma kungenjalo, yisiphi isisombululo umnyango oze naso ukuqinisekisa ukuthi uyakwazi ukubona omasipala abadinga usizo kusanesikhathi. Ngiyabonga Sihlalo.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF COOPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL

AFFAIRS: Hon Chairperson, yes, the department has identified working together with National Treasury in municipalities that are unable to meet their executive obligations, in particular with regards to the provision of services and their financial sustainability. Part of our intervention through the District Development Model in intended to provide support to the local governments to ensure that they are able to meet their executive obligations.

Also, I think it is important to indicate that the Municipal Infrastructure Support Agent, Misa, has been utilised by the department as its agent to support municipalities that do not have engineers, town planners and so on, so that there is necessary skills and capability to enable these municipalities to exercise their responsibilities.

In many of these, where we have intervened, we have seen remarkable progress with regards to the implementation, amongst others, of the Municipal Infrastructure Grant. In terms of other interventions that we are looking at, this would include the simplified revenue plans that are being implemented in some of the other municipalities, where we are beginning to see that, as a result of the implementation of these simplified revenue plans, revenue performance is improving in these municipalities.

Lastly, through the District Development Model we seek to enhance this work and ensure that the work that we do throughout the country makes a direct impact on all the local authorities in the country. Thank you very much.

Thank you, hon members. Allow me to take this opportunity to thank the Deputy Minister of Cooperative Governance

and Traditional Affairs, hon Tau, for availing himself to take questions in the NCOP. [Applause.] Thank you to the hon Deputy Minister Tau. Now I extend the invitation to the podium to hon Minister Macingwane. [Applause.]

Question 104:

Thank you very

much House Chair and to all the members in the NCOP, the response to Question 104 is: Upon the appointment of members of the executive, the Presidency as a practice, co-ordinates an induction programme that occurs over two days for the new members of the national executive. The Department of the Public Service and Administration makes presentation on that induction programme to clarify the different roles and responsibilities of executive authority and the head of the department or director-general, DG, regarding the powers vested in terms of Public Service Act of 1994, including the recruitment of the personnel. A similar presentation is made by the National Treasury to clarify the different roles of the executive authority and accounting officers in terms of the Public Service Management Act of 1999. These are the things that actually happened after getting appointed. Thank you.

Chairperson, let me also appreciate the response by the Minister that indeed work has started. My follow up question is as follows: What mechanism has the department put in place, hon Minister, to ensure that there are clear guidelines on the lines of the responsibility, particularly around matters that deals with recruitment of personnel informed by our commitment as the ruling party in employing senior managers? Valid principles must always apply to senior appointments based on legislation, legislated prescript, but also informed by our gender to transform and modernise the Public Administration, which obviously at the centre of it is aimed at professionalising the Public Service Administration. Thank you, hon Minister.

Well, apart from

many provisions that guide us on this aspect, the National Development Plan, NDP, espouses aspirations in respect of delegations, accounting and oversight. In this regard, the Cabinet approved the principles of public administration and financial delegations and minimum levels of delegations on 7 August as far back as 2013. In respect of the powers and the duties necessary for the recruitment and other human resources practises, and the Minister for Public Service and Administration issued a directive on public administration and management delegations on 4 August 2014,

to provide the head of the departments with greater delegations for things they are responsible for. Various delegations that were issued in terms of a directive provided for maximum delegation to DGs and HODs based on the minimum levels that had been approved by Cabinet before, and the directive of Public Administration and Management Delegation 2014 intends to ensure a closer alignment between the powers of the duties of the HODs and DGs, as accounting officers in terms of the Public Service Act of 1994 and the Public Service Management Act of 1999. Thank you.

IsiZulu:

Ngiyabonga Sihlalo, MaCingwane ...

UNGQONGQOSHE WEZEMISEBENZI YOMPHAKATHI: Baba wakithi.

It's good; I assume you are from Natal. [Laughter.] We know each other. Minister, in a recent answer to a written question from my colleague hon Leon [Inaudible.], you confirmed that the R30 billion was spent a year on paying managers that run government departments, including accounting officers that were referred in hon Mmoiemang's question. What specific measures do you have in mind Minister to ensure that the South African taxpayer is getting value for money for their taxpayer's bag and also that we

can ensure productivity from these accounting officers and managers that are spending all this money on? Thank you.

I would say buy

large, if South Africa was a company with regard to Public Service that is services that are rendered to the citizens of this country. We would be talking about a going concern. In other words, a company that is working, what level towards satisfaction level has a different matter, but the fact of the matter is that schools, hospitals, offices generally where public service is rendered do work. We may then say we are not satisfied with this and that. Now all the people who are rendering those services and all those offices are public servants, part of whom are the ones that are being paid that part of R30 billion per financial year. So, we mustn't take for granted the services that we get all over the country from Cape Town to Musina, Mpumalanga and all those scenes on a daily basis whatever services. In addition to that we have a challenge, including us in the Public Service to make sure that whatever service is rendered at the moment in terms of quality we improve on that. We always undertake that we will do whatever it takes to move things up such that indeed we can confidently stand in front of you and say that the taxpayers are getting value for their money. Over and above that, on the cautious side and as part of our

concern on the Wage Bill, there are certain initiatives we are taking so that it is not just a question of saying as long as people are satisfied then that is all fine, minding the GDP and the state of the economy we have in the country. I would say so. Thank you very much.

Thank you, House Chairperson. Minister, the reality is that there is no misunderstanding of the law between the executive authority and the accounting officers. The ruling party has overtime allowed those who occupy high positions to misuse power and appoint people without skills in top positions whilst there are people who are paid to do the job within the public sector. The majority of these people, who comes as cadre deployment, comes with no experience at all within the public sector. Don't you think that it's time to do away with employment of those who are linked to the top brass within the public sector?

There has never

been time to do that. There has never been any time, in other words, no bell ever rung to do what you perceive or what you may have an experience of. The rules and the laws of the Republic of SA have always been linking your qualifications, experience on the basis of merit attached to any advert. This is evident by adverts that are

always made and interviews procedures that are followed. There are some instances, where people may make an effort to override those rules. There are rules. If you are going to be a director or a chief director, there are rules that need to be followed right from advert up to appointment. Having done that, in case there is a proof that those things were overlooked there are always consequences for that, including reversal of such appointments. So, there has never been a majority of cases where it's just willy-nilly doing, but in those incidents you can come forward and we will work together and ensure that we put a stop to those. Thank you.

Thank you, Minister, how can you ensure that nepotism or perceived nepotism does not take place in the appointment of office staff? This is an issue across all the three spheres of government from municipalities to national departments. I think the most recent example of such nepotism is the Minister of Public Works, who appointed her sister. [Interjections.] Have you had a discussion with Minister de Lille about the embarrassment that she has caused your government in light of your efforts?

I would say that

category of incidents or the example of which you are giving are the ones that are not desirable and are the ones that you and I have to

fight for. You are quite privileged more than 58 million South Africans that are out there, outside this House, in terms of the possibility of you taking charge of that issue together with us. So, the will is there, the rules and regulations are there. All we need to do is to execute on our side. We are saying if we have an incident like that let's stop it, not during the day, not at night but early in the morning. Let's put a stop to it. You and I have a great privilege in doing so if we work together. Thank you.

Question 119:

Chairperson, the

Public Administration Management Act, Act 11 of 2014 was passed by the National Assembly in March 2014, and was assented to by the former President on 19 December of the same year. The Act was subsequently published in the Government Gazette on 22 December of the same year.

By giving you these dates I am attempting to clear away any perception that there were delays.

Despite being assented to in 2014, the Act was challenging to implement due to the nature of the provisions and the need for regulations.

So, on 1 April this year, the President, by way of a proclamation, operationalised 13 sections of the Act, including section 15 which established the Public Administration Ethics, Integrity, Disciplinary and Technical Assistance Unit, while sections 5, 6, 7, 9, 12, 11 and 19 remain inoperational.

The sections that have not been operationalised either require regulation for proper implementation, or there are factors that indicate that an amendment of the Act is required. Therefore the delays in the establishment of the Public Administration Ethics, Integrity, Disciplinary and Technical Assistance Unit can't be attributed to any specific delay. Part of the role of the Public Administration Ethics, Integrity, Disciplinary and Technical Assistance Unit is to strengthen government oversight, ethics, integrity and discipline and, where necessary, in cases where systemic weaknesses are identified, to intervene.

This role is expected to build and support systems that already exist within the public administration to deal with corruption.

What has become clear over the past year as it is being revealed in the Zondo Commission is that the systems within government were blatantly disregarded and that, in some instances, persons who were

charged with ensuring proper governance failed to discharge those responsibilities.

The Public Administration Ethics, Integrity, Disciplinary and Technical Assistance Unit on its own will not remove corrupt elements within the public administration, but a combined effort, a strong system of governance and a public service cadre dedicated to professionalism and ethical leadership might. This unit will ensure that corrupt persons are sanctioned. This is a goal to which we are committed. Thank you.

Minister, your response - and I cannot hold you responsible, because I know you're the seventh Minister of this department in five years - is remarkable. You agree with me that on 19 December 2014 this Act was passed. It was assented to by the President. You have just advised us now that, in April of this year, some five years later, the current President has operationalised 13 sections of the report, including the section that I am talking about in my follow-up, which is the unit that was never established.

First of all, Minister, section 15 at that time read, this unit, which, as you know, has a very long...

Technical

assistance, yes.

No, it has a very long name. It is established. That is actually a legislative lie! At that time, it was not established.

So my question to you, Minister, is: What are you going to do to follow up on the person or persons who, over the last five years, went out of their way to make sure that that unit was never set up. Because I think you agree with me that, if that unit had been set up, it would have played a huge role in dealing with everything that is unfolding at the Zondo Commission at the moment.

So, what can we do to track those who got in its way, who obstructed it by making sure that a law which was passed in this country five years ago was just not implemented?

Colleagues, this is something we all need to be scared of.

Minister, what can you do about this? Please. Thank you.

The difference

between the question that you asked and what you are saying now is that there was attribution to ... for our President as having delayed. So I have cleared that. It was assented to in the same year that it was passed.

Then I articulate that, following the President's assent of that law, regulations needed to be developed. That took time. In other words, I'm with you on the delay thereof, including on the setting up of the unit. But on ... to respond directly to you now ... one, we have taken a thorough audit in terms of where the bottlenecks were in terms of developing these regulations to ... so that you operationalise the law as it was passed. And we are clear on those.

But, the law doesn't ... When there is a delay, it's like in a football match. When you pass the ball meant for your number nine and it goes to your number 10, you don't take your player out. What you do is, you coach further.

So what we do ... what we have identified is that this is where things went wrong. This is where there were delays. And we have undertaken ... and we are committing now to you that we are not going to do as they did. We are going to avoid all those pitfalls

and move ahead. As of now, I can assure you that I am meeting this team tomorrow, because the first thing that we need to do is to locate them properly, closer to the wishes of the Public Administration Management Act, Act 11 of 2014. We are discussing that as we finalise the organogram which we have developed since we came and we are finalising it so that they are not stunted somewhere; they are properly located and ...

So we will move such that we make up for all the other difficulties that we have come ... It is the same. If you take a plane from Cape Town to Johannesburg ... if there is a delay, you don't punish the pilot midair, because you will all fall. That's what I'm saying.

Minister, I'm going to ask you to make use of the interpreting service because I'm going to ask my question in Afrikaans.

Can someone help

me so that I know which interpreting ... [Interjections.]

It's channel 2, Minister.

Thank you.

Afrikaans:

Minister, welkom hier by ons in die Nasionale Raad van Provinsies.

Die vraag wat hier gevra word ...

English:

Hon Arnold, please stand closer to the mic.

Afrikaans:

Die vraag word gestel hier ... en dit lyk nou asof daar 'n ontploffing van korrupsie was by die datums hier wat genoem word in 2015 tot 2019, maar die ontploffing het al reeds plaasgevind. Dis in die apartheidsregeringsjare dat korrupsie hooggety gevier het.

So ons as die EFF stem nie eens saam met die vraag daar nie.

Maar wat ek graag vir die Minister will s en vra is: Die korrupsie

... met al die wetgewing wat daar is, het so vermeerder en toegeneem onder hierdie regering ... ek bedoel, daar is wetgewing ... ons het genoegsame wetgewing, maar die implementering van daardie wetgewing

en om regtigwaar korrupsie vas te vat ... dit is waar die probleem l.

So my vraag wat ek vir u wil vra is ... en ek dink deel van hierdie

... en u moet kan antwoord op hierdie vraag: Die uitkontraktering van die dienste van die regering ... het dit ook nie bygedra tot die vermeerdering van korrupsie in die regering nie?

Well, let me just

say that I can't claim to have heard very clearly because the interpreter was quite slow. But I do understand what you are talking about. You are raising a concern about corruption despite legislation being there, and what it is that we ...

As I said before, I think ... let's internalise this thing. The fight against corruption is going to need all of us. It requires all of us. All state, all law enforcement agencies in the country, all lawmakers, the public out there, all spheres of government, and people outside government ... we are all required. We just need to form a front against corruption so that people know that they have no room to hide.

These people who are corrupt are not even half of us here. They are quite less than us. But they are able to mount quite a powerful and connected network so that they seem to be invincible. And we are now looking at them as quite a huge army out there. My own view and analysis is that we just need to continue talking about all of this. We just need to agree strongly that all of us don't agree with corruption in our ranks as political parties, our ranks as ... in society, our ranks in schools and wherever corruption is found.

[Inaudible.] ... the fight. I think this is the beginning because we are talking the same language. Nobody embraces corruption here. All of us say down with corruption. And we are saying so! Down with corruption in all its forms! But it's not just government. It's going to be all of us. It's going to take the effort from all of us to do so. Thank you.

Hon Minister, firstly, as the pilot in charge now, we need to take this time to thank you for the work you are doing there. You are the one in charge. No matter if there were five or six before you, we trust you and we support you. You have our full support.

What we want you to just check for us is, have we succeeded in providing a legal framework across the three spheres of government to introduce some degree of uniformity of purpose and ethics in integrity management?

In the same essence ... you see, the DA is so confused. In Cape Town, it is the only province where I see two cities - one for the rich and one for the poor. [Interjections.] We are shocked by the conditions here. The poor remains poor. We are in the poorest of the poor. Thank you.

Thank you very

much for your support, as expressed. I think we are stronger, united, and weaker, divided.

The Public Administration Management Act, Act 11 of 2014 does give us authority across all spheres of government to put a framework ... to implement values and principles governing all spheres of government and workers that are ...

We are positioning ourselves to implement this legislation. In due course we will give you an update in terms of where we are but we take it that we have a framework to implement across ... that

includes state-owned entities, SOEs, and we are determined to move as fast as possible.

Minister, part of creating an ethical civil service is the prohibition on civil servants doing business with government. Has there been any success with regard to this and what is the rate thereof? Thank you.

Hon member, since

2016, public service employees are prohibited ... strictly prohibited from conducting business with the state. The Department of Public Service and Administration adopted the following mechanisms to detect public servants who do business with the state.

Firstly, we effected changes to the personnel salary system - that's Persal - to allow departments to capture on their own requests from employees to perform other remunerative work on it. This data captured on Persal is analysed and compared with information on the disclosure system to detect possible cases of employees conducting business with the state. That's the first thing enabling all departments across to detect.

Number two, information is extracted from the central supplier database which contains a register of all individuals registered to tender for business with the state, and this is maintained by National Treasury. The data is analysed and compared to the data of Persal so as to indentify public service employees who are doing business with the state.

This is proving to be quite effective in terms of results.

The Department of Public Service and Administration directed letters to departments identifying names of employees possibly conducting business with the state and encouraging departments to, among other things, confirm that the identified individuals were indeed conducting business with the state, to take action when it had to, and to report the steps taken against culprits to the Department of Public Service and Administration.

The Department of Public Service and Administration also increased awareness of the detection of employees conducting business with the state among ethics officers of the various departments by means of hosting an annual national ethics forum.

At the end of February this year, the Department of Public Service and Administration identified 1 080 public service employees who were possibly conducting business with the state. We did this by comparing information contained in the Central Supplier Database with that contained in Persal as we have indicated. The Department of Public Service and Administration is in the process of scrutinising the names list with the assistance of the relevant departments, using the same instrument so as to eliminate names of employees who left the public service, those who were wrongly flagged and those appointed in an official capacity to represent government. From this process then the names of 20 employees likely to be conducting business with the state were identified. On 24 June this year those names were handed over to the SA Police Service, SAPS, for investigation.

On 2 September 2019, SAPS and the Department of Public Service and Administration convened a meeting to discuss progress with the cases and it was resolved that the National Prosecuting Authority, NPA, will be included in the next meeting to develop prosecution strategies.

The Department of Public Service and Administration is also in the process of completing another 20 names of employees to be handed over to SAPS.

So, it is working and as we experience more of this mechanism ... more and more, if there are any out there, they will be caught and brought to justice.

Question 131:

The revised

version of the guide for members of the executive which has been completed. That is the review thereof that President Ramaphosa announced at some point after appointing members of the executive. So, that revision has taken place, it has been completed and it has been submitted to the President. Once the President approves this, the guide will be made publicly available. The President has undertaken that it's not going to take a long time because it's on his desk.

COMMITTEES: Hon Mathevula, we are listening to the response from the Minister so that we must not make a mistake and ask a question yet the response has been quite adequate.

Continue hon Minister. The first supplementary question is from hon Mokause.

Minister, the reality is that we have witnessed a lot things happening over the past term of Parliament where Ministers abuse incentives allocated to them. We saw Ministers' families and children being flown and booked accommodation all over the show and their families also acting as Deputy Ministers and misusing public funds.

Can you assure the council today that those sections of the ministerial handbook which you are saying you have revised are not going to allow such a movie with the public purse because here in South Africa, we are witnessing a lot of things with these Ministers and Deputy Ministers?

I can assure the

council and assure the public out there that even by your own reference; it was in the last term not this term. This term we are going to comply not only that, we are going to ensure that prescripts both in the light and spirit of the ministerial handbook is followed. That is why among other things there's been a thorough interaction including yesterday on this matter so that we ensure

understanding, willingness to comply and indeed ensure compliance, this is a serious matter. We don't want to repeat mistakes of the past. Thank you.

IsiNdebele:

Bantu bekhethu beSewula Afrika, lotjhani. Mphathiswa, ngiyathokoza ngokuyibeka kwakho kuhle. Ngithokoza godu ukuzimisela nokuzibophelela njengombuso ophetheko kobana lokho egade kwenzeka angeze kusenzeka ngombana nilandela lokho okubekwe nguMengameli begodu niyakutjhejisisa lokho ebesele kuqediwe kobana kukhambelane nesikhathi sanje. Siyazi ukobana kuyinto edlulileko, abantu bebalila. Siyathokoza ngokuzibophelela kwenu nekutheni nitjhugulule izinto ePalamende yesiThandathu; igaya ngomunye umhlathi.

English:

Furthermore hon Minister, my question is, have we been successful while reviewing that ministerial handbook in ensuring that whatever changes in the ministerial handbook are in line with cost cutting measures according to what has been complained about and also confirmed by the former Minister Pravin Gordhan in his budget speech in 2016?

Yes, I would say

in some sections that have been reviewed, there have been cases where we think we have done more than well in terms of cost cutting. About more than 80% of the review was geared on this, it was targeting cutting costs. We are quite aware not only do we have the responsibility to cut costs but we have a responsibility of exercising leadership so that the implications of what we are doing at the moment when the river breaks down the line people are not pointing up and say what about that and so we are taking a lead on these matters and want to assure you.

At some point when the President makes some announcements on this, you are likely to be surprised. You are likely to find yourself in the NCOP much more in luxury more than the Ministers themselves. Thank you.

Minister I'm glad to hear that you are deliberating on the ministerial handbook and that it is coming out shortly after the President has ascend to do it. I hope it comes out before the next five years unlike the last Act we spoke about.

You have been very quiet to tell us what has been cut but we are very concerned about things like luxury vehicles, we are concerned

about business class travel for life, we are concerned about five star hotel accommodations and VIP security.

Minister, if you consider that 39% of South Africans live on about R419 a month and that the difference between an economy flight and a business flight is about R4 000, that's ten times the amount that 39% of our citizens live on a month.

Can you please assure this House that you will be trying everything that you can to ensure that we speak to the concerns of our citizens in this country that are struggling while some of us are sitting back and enjoying the luxury? Will you tell us today what is being cut or are you concerned that your comrades will be kicked of the gravy train, please tell us?

COMMITTEES: Hon members, hon Brauteseth, the original question is when will the final copy of the ministerial handbook be made available? Then, the answer from the Minister is that the President is about to that. Then, you are getting to the details of the document that's not yet for public consumption, I think I have the responsibility to assist but I will leave to the Minister to comment.

Chair, I think

you're quite right, thank you very much for that explanation. Yes, I can make an undertaking that as I said before the President will make an announcement of the arrival of the ministerial handbook very soon. But, I am unable to divulge into its content but I do want to say sitting here as members of the NCOP or parliamentarians generally, we enjoy better security than someone who is Khayelitsha. That's a fact and it's a question of saying let us be sensitive, let us be cautious but as far as ministerial handbook is concerned, there are cuts.

But, let me go to the broader question. This we insist in the Department of Public Service and Administration, DPSA, that the ministerial handbook and all the other matters are only but one item or one aspect, if you look at the cost of running public administration in the whole Republic, there are several cost drivers outside what we are talking about now. We are extending our tentacles to those and in due course we will indicate. Thank you very much

Question 106:

Chairperson, we

have noted with concern the extremely troubling events surrounding

the murder of the 19year old University of Cape Town student and whilst the alleged perpetrator is not employed within public administration. We are alerted to the possibility of such incidence recurring within the public administration itself.

The information currently being recorded within the public service doesn't extend to capturing of the numbers of employees with criminal records or the details thereof including the nature of convictions. We are therefore unable at this time to provide the details requested. Firstly, let me say, there is a provision for the Z83 application form used by people when they are applying for employment in the public administration to declare on this matter. But in terms of tracing and tracking, we want to say the following. We are mindful of the constitutional provisions which may not permits an outright prohibition on the employment of persons with a criminal record. However, in an effort to ensure the suitable placement of employees with criminal records as well as to ensure the safety and wellbeing of other employees in the public in general, it may be necessary for information relating to criminal records of employees to be maintained.

The Public Administration Ethics Integrity and Disciplinary Technical Assistance Unit established in terms of Public Service

Administration Act, supports a number of initiatives to address this. It may be necessary that we look at this matter in terms of legislation. But I must say that at the moment we haven't started with that initiative. But we have discussed it, to say, there may be a specific need to close this gap, that if somebody has a criminal record, be it murder or what, it should not be the practice that is in favour of that person in terms of their willingness to rehabilitate. It must go further to say a record is a record. Therefore, it excludes you from enjoying certain rights that are enjoyed by citizens who have made a better effort in terms of remaining free of criminal records. It cannot be comparable. Theoretical, we accept that. But in terms of what we have to do, we have to move on that.

To complete the response, among these initiatives, the Department Of Public Service and Administration will together with the assistance of other relevant departments seek to create a database of employees who have criminal records. It is envisaged that the database will as far as possible contain details on the nature of the offence and any other relevant detail. In addition to this, we will ensure that employees who contravene Public Service Management Act conducting business with the state are immediately dealt with. These matters will be referred to the relevant law enforcement. There are

initiatives that we are taking on criminality of people in the public service. It is not a free for all. Thank you.

IsiXhosa:

Enkosi Sihlalo weNdlu. Mphathiswa ndiyabulela ngengcaciso ethe gca kulo mcimbi ubaluleke kangaka. Ndiyayivuyela into yokuba kulo mbuzo bendinawo ongumvukela uMphathiswa uyichaphazele into yokuba ikhona imiba abazakuyijonga ukuqinisekisa ukuba ukhona umthetho okhoyo.

Ingaba emva kwesi sehlo, sothuke sacinga ukuba leliphi icebo elinokwenziwa ukuqinisekisa ukuba into enje ayiphindi yenzeke kwakhona? Siyayiqonda kananjalo ukuba lo mcimbi awukho phantsi kwesebe likaMphathiswa, ngoko rhulumento. Asinazo neenjongo zokuphinda sibatshutshise ngakumbi abo bafumaneka benechaphaza ngokwasemthethweni. Enkosi.

Afrikaans:

Voorsitter, Afrikaans is die taal van die EFF. [Tussenwerpsels.] Ja. Ministers, baie dankie vir u terugvoering, dat daar van plan is om te begin. Ek dink dit is belangrik dat daar so 'n opname moet wees, sodat daar ook, wat staatsamptenare betref, voorkomend opgetree kan word. Daar moet voorkomend opgetree word. Ek

dink dit is altyd goed ... Ons weet altyd dat die regering net spring om iets te doen wanneer daar iets gebeur. Hulle moet voorkomend optree. Ons weet die veiligheid van ons kinders en vroue in staatsfasiliteite ... Dit is ook die rol van die Minister van Polisie en die polisie, maar het u ook al met die Minister gekommunikeer oor 'n strategie om seker te maak dat kinders en vroue nie onveilig voel in ons staatsinstellings nie? Baie dankie.

I rise on a point of order. I am pleased to note that finally Afrikaans is acceptable as well in the EFF. It is one of the languages in this country. Thank you.

COMMITTEES: Hon Nhanha, all languages in our Constitution are protected and promoted in this very same House. So I am not going to allow... Hon Mathevula, lets allow the Minister to respond. Afrikaans is an official language in South Africa.

I concur that

that database is very important and I think we need to work together towards that. I also agree with you that we need to make attempts to prevent a sequel of these incidences from happening. I can say that we got into quite an important conversation with the Minister of Communications and Telecommunication after the incident. She kept on

updating us on actions that have among other things ended up with the suspension of the two senior officials concerned in that incident that is in question.

We have not yet had any discussions with the Minister of Police, but I can say that when we move on this we will start from a base which says - normally when a medical doctor is found to have done something untoward, in some cases, there have been court orders that have prevented people from - let's say for instance, working with children or with women when court orders are made against them. So while a person would work but they would say not where you committed the same offence because it will affect or your conduct is not conducive to that.

Already the society and courts have made moves to protect children and women and it has gone up to court rulings and using that base I think we need to move and up the scales so that there is more space for safety of vulnerable people in the country.

Minister, I think I heard you saying that the Department of Communications and Telecommunication in the post office said that the person who is involved in the tragic case of

Uyinene Mrwetyana, it was not picked up that he has a criminal record.

Minister, last week the State Security Agency met with the Standing Committee on Public Accounts, Scopa, and they went through the issue that has been ongoing for a long time about vetting, and I heard that 48% of the civil servants have yet to be vetted. The State Security Agency then told them that they had informed the post office that the alleged killer in that tragic case was identified as somebody with a criminal record and nothing was done about it and they decided to proceed.

The post office created a platform for the sexual predator when they could have stopped it. My point to you is that action must be taken. The concern I want to raise with you is, what is it that you as the Minister are going to do to make sure that the human resources, HR, people in all our departments and entities do their due diligence properly to make sure that this kind of thing is picked up and that we pick up this kind of problem so early on and the focus being the HR of our departments?

Since discussing

this matter a week or so ago, the specific thing that we said

officials must explore is a system in the public service. Because we are concerned about public service in the main. There must explore possibilities of us having a system that identifies people who have criminal records or who accumulates this criminal records. At the moment we admit, we don't have such a system.

We even went on to say maybe we also need to work with courts because we learnt that courts do sometimes have profiles on persons against whom they have been findings and we need to work closely with them. But we then said as the DPSA we need to explore this possibility. It is something that is concerning to us as well just like you and we are working towards that. Surely, we should update you as soon as we are making headways on this, but I am convinced just like you are that we can't leave this gap as it is because when it happens again we would then say ...

IsiZulu:

Siyamangala futhi. Bese sithi angazi, angazi. Sizokwazi manje.

English:

We are moving towards that. Thank you.

Question 120:

House Chair,

following the President's call for lifestyle audits, to be conducted for public officials in the public service and administration. The department is in the process of finalising legislative framework, which will enable all departments in the public administration including local government, to conduct lifestyle audits of its employees. Draft regulations have been prepared for public comment. The Public Administration Management Act established the public administration ethics and Disciplinary Technical Assistance Unit. It is the function of this unit to assist the departments where requested, to conduct such lifestyle audits and refer matters necessary to the relevant law enforcement authority. The Department of Public Service and Administration is reconfiguring its organisational structure to locate position and position the unit to provide such required assistance. I must say that there is a probability that this lifestyle audit will extend beyond just members of the public service, as I say already, in local government we are going there. I will go to state-owned enterprises, SOEs, that is public entities, but it will also go to elected members, possible starting with the members of the Cabinet. Discussions have been there but we haven't begun to systematise it, but it is coming and is desirable.

Minister, thank you for your answer. The reality there is the question that we sent to you said - because you indicated to my colleague the hon Schreiber in the National Assembly that they will start on 1 September, so the question was how many have been done since 1 September until now and what is the outcome? Minister, once again we have this problem and we discussed earlier an Act passed on 2014 and were only operating last in 2019. You have already given undertaking in the National Assembly but when is it going to start and now you have told us that you have finalising the legislative framework to get it done. Are we going to be sitting here in six month's time or year's time and you say well we are still working out the system, so I need to ask you. You touched on the persons. What will the extent of lifestyle audit will be, are independent bodies going to be used for those lifestyle audits? Can you give us a definite time frame? Can you say to us it will be done by the end of 2020, for instance, that it all be done? If you fail with that designated time, Minister, will you resign and assure the eighth to look after the department in five years [Laughter.] Thank you.

COMMITTEES: Hon member, it is a supplementary question, not supplementary questions!

I think we are

one; I wanted to hear when you would love to see this in action. On our side I say, we would want to do it as soon as possible. Now, that means in far less than six months, from where I sit to begin with this because, I don't see any difficulty in our way now after we adopt the organogram, which I am saying we are finalising in week's time. This should enable this unit to really now focus and begin to...that doesn't mean are not doing anything on various issues that have to do with ethics and integrity, but to be specific to you so that you hold me responsible, in less than six months we would be up and running with this matter.

IsiZulu:

Ngiyajabula ukuzwa ukuthi ukuhlolwa kwendlela yokuphila kuzofika nakuKhabinethi nathi sizongena la. MaCingwane kukhona labo osebenzisana nabo kuyimanje ehhovisi lakho abanele ukubona nje ukuthi manje sebeyaphenywa, baphenywa izinqe. Bavele bagxume bafake incwadi yokwesula emsebenzini ngoba bebalekela ukuthi loku okufikayo kubathole sebengasekho. Ihhovisi lakho MaCingwane liphatha kanjani lenkinga efana nalena nokuthi yimaphi amaqhinga ...

COMMITTEES: ... supplementary question, not supplementary questions!

Yiwo lena Sihlalo.

English:

What is the plan?

UNGQONGQOSHE WEZEMISEBENZI YOMPHAKATHI: Okokuqala, uma kukhona izinto ezingalungile ozenzile ...

English:

... if you did something wrong while you were employed, it often doesn't help you to run away because criminality has no boundary, law enforcement agencies will definitely follow you and we are encouraging them to follow those who escape or run away with murder as they say. On our own we don't intend waiting until you run away in the first place. You get dealt with on the spot and in many cases that has been demonstrated beyond any doubt but, to answer you fairly and square, criminality knows no boundaries we will follow you, including - you would know the that auditor general's powers have been extended and auditor general can issue a directive to say, you are an accounting officer, I found wasteful expenditure you are liable, issue a certificate of liability and then whether you are out or in it doesn't matter you will have to pay your dues, as far as that debt is concerned via that certificate. All in all I am

saying we are up and down making sure that we close all avenues for criminality.

House Chair, hon Minister, has government consider stretching the scope of these lifestyle audits, to include universities and also state- owned entities, SOEs? I thank you.

Not that I know

of as far as universities are concerned but it is desirable, it's a matter that can be looked at, because they are part of public servants. As far as the other category of workers in the public entities, were you saying, we are getting there, this is what we were saying that we are developing the whole framework to cover them as well, because clearly local is inside. Thank you.

Question 110:

Chairperson, in

terms of the Public Service and Administration Regulations 2016, the Minister for Public Service and Administration after consultation with the Minister of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, he is responsible for developing a framework within which the community development worker programme operates. To maximise its efficiency, intend engaging with the Minister of Co-operative

Governance and Traditional Affairs to ensure that the responsibility of this programme is located within one Minister and in this instance it will be the co-operative government, that being the Minister of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs who is also currently managing the implementation of the programme. Based on the case studies and reports received from community development workers, CDW, co-ordinators this programme is making progress in supporting government in resolving service delivery deficiencies in communities.

Community development workers within their wards across provinces have unlocked or unblocked, or resolved, or fast tracked service delivery by opening doors for people who have identity documents, birth certificates problems, unlocked local economic development for unemployed people, facilitated access to government housing, health services, youth centres, indigent grants and social grants. They advocate for fixing poorly built Reconstruction and Development Programme, RDP, houses, disaster management, bridges that can connect communities, food security facilitating and registration of early childhood centres in poor communities. These are all the things that they have done in the breadth and width of the country.

Evidence of this is captured in different case studies of the community development workers that were developed and submitted, collated and showcased in different communication media for sharing and best practices. The Department of Public Service and Administration, DPSA, is one of the recipients of the case studies from provinces on the work done by the community development workers. In some provinces community development workers have received awards including from the premiers' excellence awards. This is our case as far as community development workers are concerned. Thank you.

Chairperson, again let me express gratitude to the Minister for appreciating the good work that is done by these community development workers. Indeed, hon Minister, how it was conceptualised was to have these mobile information officers who are ward based to be able to ensure that they bridge the gap between the people's government and the communities. Has the intervention or would the framework also beget towards addressing the questions around the tools of trade, the lack of infrastructure, the resources, more particularly, the inadequate budget provision to make this mobile information officers more effective and more efficient, hon Minister? Thank you.

To an extent,

yes. However, sufficient or high levels of satisfaction, may be, the cases differ from one point to the other. That is why we are saying that we need to engage the local government so that; one, all community development workers are located in that department, so that there are no different conditions of work and different standards. Even in terms of salaries, they are paid differently depending on who employs them. Others are employed by the Department of Health, others by the Department of Social Development, and others by the local government. We now say that let's drive this and let us give it to one department [Inaudible.] we will withdraw but they will remain as part of the public service and therefore we will be seeking to make sure that the standards and all prescripts are applied and they are the same. That is when we will be able to address some of those issues like the tools of trade. In some cases they really assist them but in some they are left exposed, which is a concern. Thank you.

Xitsonga:

Ndza khensa Mutshamaxitulu. A ndzi swi tivi loko va ta ndzi twa loko va nga vekelanga ...

... have the microphone closer to you.

Okay.

Yes.

Xitsonga:

Holobye, ndzi lava ku vulavula hi Xitsonga. Xana ma xi twa? Hi swona, vekelani phela.

You can use the

language that you are using now and we close the case. [Laughter.]

Xitsonga:

I Xitsonga.

Yes, the one that

you have just used.

I don't know English. [Laughter.]

You didn't know

that you know it, you know it, I can tell you ... [Laughter.]

Xitsonga:

Holobye, Vatirhi vo Hluvukisa Miganga eka timasipala to tala va hakeriwa mali yitsongo naswona va tirhisiwa ku siva swivandla swa mitirho eka timasipala. Xana hi tihi tindlela leti mi ti tirhisaka ku endlela leswaku va ta hola mali yo ringanela va tlhela va thoriwa ku tirha nkarhi hinkwawo? Ndza khensa.

Thank you very

much, that is a beautiful language. It is the same answer. It is exactly because of those instances where they are - in some cases - paid even less than little, very little. Therefore, we are saying that they belong to the public service, let us apply the same standards and the same principles. The first step is to bring them under one government department so that we have a responsible Minister even at national level and streamline that to the provinces. Then, the next thing is for us as public service to say conditions of service as follows ... must apply. We are moving towards addressing exactly that. It is a concern and we share that. Thank you.

Through you Chair, Minister, this is my last question to you today. I am sure you are glad that I engage you. Minister, my query about community development workers is that you are familiar I'm sure about section 217 of the Constitution that effectively provides the guiding principles to all procurements and that is; it must be fair, transparent, competitive, etc, but one of the very most important words in that section is that it must be cost effective. Minister, there are grave concerns that there are many community development workers programme workers that either get paid for a task that they are not actually doing. Minister, you must be aware that there are many grave concerns that there are a lot of ghost workers in the community development workers programme. My question to you is, would you endeavour to conduct an audit of all community development workers programme workers to establish what they are doing, what they are paid for and also to eradicate or terminate the contract of all [Inaudible.] possible ghost workers in the programme, to make sure that we stick to the provisions of section 217 of being cost effective and also giving the South African taxpayer value for money? Thank you.

I will give you

credit and say that now that you have raised a concern and the issue we need to look at it because it means that - as far as your

experience is concerned - there may be something beyond what we are seeing. It is part of engaging the Minister of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs and in the process of transferring them we have to raise the matter. I think it is [Inaudible.] We can't leave a situation like that unattended to. Thank you.

Setswana:

Ke a leboga, Modulasetilo.

English:

... your microphone ...

Setswana:

Ke a leboga Modulasetilo.

English:

All I want to ask the Minister is that, does the department have plans to further train community development workers in order to maximise their efficiency and influence? That is what I want to know.

Yes, I think it

is regarded in some circles that the community development workers as to some entry to public service. I think the day we are able to conclude on the allocation in terms of the department and the application of values, norms and standards to them, they will be able to see their way. I would say that there are cases where they really have moved up. So, I think we have to encourage them and create an environment that is encouraging them. Thanks to Public Administration Management Act, PAMA, it will allow movement up and down within the public service and not that you employ them and they don't get locked on a permanent basis because they are human beings and others are young. Others, because of unemployment, they would have a degree but still work there as community development workers. Therefore, I think what you are saying is quite correct. We have to encourage them to move up. Thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A J Nyambi) Hon members, allow me to take this opportunity to thank the Deputy Minister of Public Service and Administration, hon Macingwane, for availing himself to take the Questions. Thank you, Macingwane. [Applause.]

Question 107:

Good afternoon House Chairperson and colleagues. The question asks whether the department has measured the progress that South Africa is making in advancing the objectives, goals and targets of the National Development Plan, NDP. If not, why not? If so, how much progress and what are the further relevant details?

The second part asks whether any progress has been made to ensure that no person lives in poverty, no-one goes hungry and that there is work for all. If not, why not? If so, what progress and what challenges are facing the country in advancing the set goals of the NDP?

Yes, the department has measured the progress of the country against the targets of the NDP. The Department of Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation, through its sector monitoring, has conducted monitoring of performance against the NDP targets.

Consequently, a mid-term review report was produced in 2017. Furthermore, the Department of Planning, Monitoring and Evaluation has conducted a 25 year review which emanates from 1994, and is inclusive of the NDP period 2012 to 2019. This review goes into

detail about the implemented solutions as we have seen, as proposed by the