Hon members, before the Deputy Minister starts addressing us, I just want to appeal to the hon members to switch off their cellphones, because I think some members have put their phones on silent mode, and they just keep on going in and out to answer them.
Chairperson, hon members, ladies and gentlemen, good afternoon. This has been a very noisy Chamber this afternoon, so I am going to bring some quiet and sanity to the debate!
In his dissertation, The mandate of political representatives with special reference to floor-crossing: a legal historical study, Mr L K Joubert opens his discussion of floor-crossing with a quotation of the following remark made by Winston Churchill:
Some men change their party for the sake of their principles; others their principles for the sake of their party.
I think that this remark is a tremendously apposite one for the debate around floor-crossing.
Floor-crossing, of course, is not a new concept in South Africa; some make as if it was only thought of yesterday, but if you go and look at the political, legal and constitutional history of this country you will find that the issue of floor-crossing has always been part of our legal system. Even when we were drafting the Constitution it was very much one of the issues that came up for discussion at all times. But it was as recently as 2002 and 2003 that Parliament, for well-known reasons which I won't state here, passed the so-called floor-crossing legislation.
The common objective of that legislation was, firstly, to enable a member of the NA, a provincial legislature or municipal council to become a member of another political party, whilst retaining membership of the assembly, of that provincial legislature or that council; and, secondly, to enable an existing political party to merge with another political party; or to subdivide into more than one political party; or to subdivide one subdivision to merge with another political party.
Apart from the political terrain which necessitated floor-crossing having changed, a general resistance against floor-crossing has also developed among political parties. Furthermore, floor-crossing has not only been strongly criticised in the media, but also by the public in general. I am convinced that members of the council or of the public who are present here in today's debate are acquainted with the main points of criticism against floor-crossing and therefore I am not going to go into any details thereof.
Government has noted this resistance and criticism and realised that they needed a reason to abolish floor-crossing. This has led to the introduction to Parliament of the Constitution Fourteenth Amendment Bill of 2008, the Constitution Fifteenth Amendment Bill of 2008 and the General Laws (Loss of Membership of National Assembly, Provincial Legislature or Municipal Council) Amendment Bill of 2008.
The main objects of the three Bills are to abolish floor-crossing and to provide for related matters. The three Bills must, therefore, be read in conjunction with one another; and I imagine that is also why we are having one debate.
The effect of abolishing floor-crossing would mean that we revert to the position prior to 2002 when floor-crossing was formally introduced in our law. In other words, we go back to the position that there is no floor- crossing at any level of government.
The Constitution Fourteenth Amendment Bill, by repealing Schedule 6A of the Constitution, abolishes floor-crossing in the NA and provincial legislatures. It also effects consequential amendments to certain sections of the Constitution. Although not related to floor-crossing, it further amends Part B of Schedule 3 of the Constitution in order to further regulate the determination of political party participation in provincial delegations to the NCOP.
The Constitution Fifteenth Amendment Bill, by repealing Schedule 6B of the Constitution, abolishes floor-crossing in municipal councils. It also effects consequential amendments to certain sections of the Constitution and provides for the filling of vacancies in a municipal council.
The General Laws (Loss of Membership of National Assembly, Provincial Legislature or Municipal Council) Amendment Bill effects amendments that are mainly of a consequential nature and emanate from the provisions of the Constitution Fourteenth Amendment and Constitution Fifteenth Amendment Bill as well as several other pieces of legislation.
Those Acts include the Public Funding of Represented Political Parties Act of 1997, the Determination of Delegates (National Council of Provinces) Act of 1998 and the Electoral Act of 1998, as well as the Local Government: Municipal Structures Act of 1998. It further effects amendments to the Public Funding of Represented Political Parties Act of 1997 by making it clear that all political parties are accountable to the Independent Electoral Commission in respect of the monies allocated to them from the Represented Political Parties' Fund and to empower the electoral commission to appoint an auditor under certain circumstances, for example, to audit the books and records of account kept by a political party. Chairperson, once the three Bills have been passed by Parliament - and this is the last stretch in the NCOP - and implemented it would mean that a member of the NA, a provincial legislature or a municipal council will no longer be able to become a member of another political party whilst retaining membership of either the Assembly, legislature or council, and an existing political party will no longer be able to merge with another political party; or to subdivide into more than one political party; or subdivide and one subdivision to merge with another, whilst allowing the member of the Assembly, legislature or council affected by such changes to retain the membership either of the Assembly, legislature or that council.
The next window period for floor-crossing, if it is not abolished at a local government level, commences on 1 September 2009, and therefore it is essential that we pass this Bill before then and hopefully when we have done so now, it will be finished. So we would have made it in good time to avoid the floor-crossing of September 2009. I imagine the DA, in particular, and other parties are extremely happy, because that means they will at least keep their members now. [Interjections.]
We are all going to be happy!
We will all be happy? I would like to thank Kgoshi Mokoena, the Chairperson of the Select Committee on Security and Constitutional Affairs, and the members of that committee for the time and effort that they have put into finalising the Bills before the Council today. I know that the members of the select committee, despite their very busy schedules, had to make time to visit their respective provinces to brief their provincial legislatures on the provisions of these pieces of legislation and to confer negotiating and voting mandates on their delegations to the Council. The abolition of floor- crossing also requires amendments to be effected to regulations that have been made under the Public Funding of Represented Political Parties Act of 1997.
I would like to thank the members of the ad hoc joint committee, consisting of members of the portfolio and the select committee, for the prompt manner in which they have dealt with and approved the required amended regulations.
Lastly, I would like to mention that the Portfolio Committee on Justice, in its report on the General Laws Amendment Bill in the NA in August, recommended that my department should conduct a review of the system of repayment of unspent balances of monies to the electoral commission with a view to submitting amending legislation, as necessary, to Parliament at the earliest opportunity, and I undertake that we will do so in due course.
It is therefore a pleasure for me to rise on behalf of the ANC, on this occasion, to give unrestricted and unconditional support to the passing of this Bill. May I also just say that when the debate took place around this same Bill in the NA, I made it very clear that the issue of floor-crossing is not something to gloat or fight about.
I think there was a time in our history when there was a need to introduce floor-crossing. It was necessary to break certain political logjams that existed at the time, as was raised particularly by the DA at the time. What it helped us do was to at least loosen up those logjams and to stabilise the political environment.
That experiment now is over and, in a way, I am personally very glad that it is over and I know my party is also glad, because, unfortunately, the one thing this did prove to us is that our political system is not mature enough to be able to deal with this kind of issue.
There can be no doubt that the sight, particularly at the local government level, of people swopping parties merely for the sake of positions and their own self-interest was an unedifying one. I think all the parties were involved in this. I do not think any of us can point fingers and in a way we should be glad that we have tried the experiment.
It was necessary at the time, but it is over now, so let us try and deal with it and rid our politics of this unedifying sight. Things are tough enough already for politicians in the way that we relate to people and our society. We do not need this kind of unedifying process where politics is merely used in the self-interest of individuals, because that is what floor- crossing allowed.
In so far as it helped us to achieve certain things, it was good, and in so far as it is now something of the past, I hope that all parties will support the demise of this experiment that was necessary at the time. Thank you very much. [Applause.]
Modulasetulo, ke leboga nako ye ke e filwego gore ke dire ditshwayotshwayo ka Molaokakanywa wo o lego pele ga rena. Gabotsebotse ke e meraro, go no bea phaa.
Go bose go ba le Tona ya go tseba ditaba, ka gore dilo t?eo go bego go nyakega gore ke di hlalo?e gore batho ba di kwe?i?e, ba di sware, ba be ba di anye, o ?et?e a di hlalo?it?e, mohlomphegi Motlat?a Tona.
A ke mo leboge ka gore ka mehla ge a etla ka mo Ntlong ye ya rena ya go tsebalega, ya batho ba bohlale, batho ba go t?ea gabotse, o re fa ditaba gabotse gore ba bangwe ba rena re be re palelwe ke go bolela. Fela a ke dumele gore o re lemo?it?e gore re se ke ra fo?ana ka mae a go bola ka gore re be re leka gore re aga selo, bjale se a re tlaba. Nka no re di loma le barafi.
A ke efoge, ke se ke ka rerela bao ba ?et?ego ba sokologile, ka ge a ?et?e a bolet?e gore lebaka la gore re phumole selo se ke eng. Re tla gopola gore ba bangwe ba rena re t?ere karolo ge re bopa molao wo re bolelago ka ona lehono, ka gore bao bego ba o nyaka gabotsebotse e be e le mokgatlo wa kgale, e lego Democratic Party ka nako ela. Fela rena ba mokgatlo o mogolo wa go t?ea gabotse, wa bohlale, ra re molao wo ga wa loka ka gore ge re ka o dumela, o tla tloga o fet?a temokrasi mo nageng ya borena, ba se re kwe?i?e. Bjale lehono di a ba loma; ga ba sa o nyaka. Bjale rena re re, re le bodit?e ra re selo se ga se a loka, le se ke la se dumela. Bjale mo?ate ba re kwele, di ba lomile, ba boile go rena ba re selo se ga se phumulweng.
Ke rata go bea taba ye ke re, go nale diphetho t?eo re di t?erego kua khonferenseng ya Polokwane. Se sengwe sa t?ona ke sona sa gore molao wo wa go dumela gore batho ba ngwege, ga re sa o nyaka, re o phumule. Efela, Mokgatlo wa Kganet?o ga ba bolele ka ona, gore sephetho se ke se re se t?erego kua khonferenseng ya rena ya mokgatlo wa go t?ea gabotse. Go nyakega gore le t?ona le di tsopole t?a gore kua khonferenseng ya Polokwane e be e se t?a bobe, re be re loki?a.
Gona bjale le a bobola.
Le tsebe gore ge molao wo o eba gona, ke rena bao re bego re holega ka bont?i. Ge go etla nako ela re rego ke "window period", ke gore nako ya go ngwega, mekgatlo e ment?i e be tsenelwa ke meetse ka dintlong ka ge ba be ba tseba gore ba a nwelela. Batho ba a ngwega, ba t?wa go bona ba ngwegela go rena le go mekgatlo ye mengwe. Bjale lehono ka gore selo se se ba lomile, rena re a dumela ka gore rena ga re na megabaru le go ba majelathoko, re a bona gore ka gore re nyaka gore temokrasi mo nageng ya rena e gole, e kokotlele, e be selo seo re ka ikgant?hago ka sona, re re selo "se se nkganago se nthola morwalo", a se sepele.
Ka gona re tla re mekgatlo kamoka kua komiting yeo re lego go yona, ba ile ba dumela gore ba a bona gore molao wo ka nnete ga o nyakege, ga o sepele. Ka gona re re se se nkganago ga se sepele.
A ke fet?e ka gore ... [T?hwahlelo.] (Translation of Sepedi paragraphs follows.)
[Kgoshi M L MOKOENA: Chairperson, I am grateful for the time allocated to me to comment on this Bill. To be more accurate, there are three Bills.
It is a pleasure to have a Minister who is well informed, because he had already expatiated on the issues that I had wanted to explain so that people can grasp them, hon Deputy Minister.
I must thank him because every time he comes to this august House, he covers everything and leaves some of us speechless. I also acknowledge that he indicated that we should not fight amongst ourselves. We were trying to work together, but it fired right back at us.
Let me avoid preaching to be converted. We should remember that some of us were present when amendments to legislation were made to fit in the aspect of crossing the floor, an issue that we are deliberating on today. The people who actually wanted it back then are the members of the Democractic Party. Our strong organisation did not approve of it since it would have put an end to democracy in our country. Now it is firing back at them and they want to have it abolished.
Let me put it this way: There are resolutions that were taken at the Polokwane Conference, one of them being that this floor crossing is unacceptable, and that it must be abolished. Members of the opposition party are quiet about it - they are not coming out with it - that this is a resolution taken at our conference. It is necessary that you mention that we were not only trying to abolish floor-crossing at the conference, but there were amendments that were made too. At this moment all you are doing is moan.
You need to know that if floor-crossing is still in existence, we would be the ones mostly benefiting from it. During the window period most organisations were concerned because they were standing on shaky ground. Their members were crossing the floor to other organisations. Now they have experienced what it is like to lose their members. We are not against them, we are not being selfish about it and we do not pull aside. We want our democracy to grow and strenghten so that we can take pride in it.
We therefore say that all the organisations in our committee agree that crossing the floor is not a necessity. Let it be abolished. If it doesn't go down well, then let it be abolished.
In conclusion I would like to say ... [Interjections.]]
Order! Hon member, is it a point of order?
Chairperson, will the member take a question?
E re ke fet?e pele, Mong'aka Watson, ke tla go bot?a. A ke fet?e pele.
A ke dumele gore seo e lego dipshe?amare ka molao wo ke gore, ge re ka lebelela Palamenteng gona bjale, go nale batho bao e lego gore ke moetapele wa lekoko yena ka no?i. Ge re nale kopano a re o ile go boledi?ana le lekoko la gagwe, o ra ge a era yena a nno?i kua Ofising ya gagwe le mongwaledi wa gagwe. Ka gona o humana e le gore, lena mekgahlo e mengwe le a lwa, le a khampeina, le nyaka gore batho ba le boutele. Fela ge motho wo a ka khampeina a se ka ja selo, ge go etla go lefeleng, ka gore ke moetapele wa lekoko, le yena go nyakega gore a humane ma?eleng a gore a thekge mokgatlo wa gagwe o lego nno?i. Ka gona re re ke dip?he?amare, molao wo ga o sepele, ga re o nyake.
Le mphile sebaka, ke a le leboga. Ka gona kere, re dumela gore selo se se ?omile ka nako ya sona. Ga bjale se felet?we ke nako, a se ye. Bao e lego gore ba ithekgile ka wona gore batlo holega ka molao wo, re re "mene, mene tekel upharsin." (Translation of Sepedi paragraphs follows.)
[Kgoshi M L MOKOENA: Let me first conclude, hon Watson. I will tell you. Let me first conclude.
Something which is not pleasing about this law is that if we look at Parliament at the moment, there are people who are party leaders to themselves. During meetings they allege that they are going to consult their parties when, in fact, they are referring to themselves and the secretaries in their offices. As a result, other parties fight; they go out to campaign, convincing people to vote for them. If those people go on a campaign and get nothing, when funds are allocated, they expect to get some funds for their one-man party too, because they are party leaders. We therefore say, this is a shame, this law must be abolished, and we do not need it.
You gave me an opportunity to address you, I thank you. I therefore say that we agree that this thing was relevant during a certain period. But now its time has expired; let it go. To those who thought that they would benefit from this law, we say: "Mene, Mene, Tekel, Upharsin. [The writing is on the wall.]
Chairperson, Deputy Minister, hon members, the Department of Justice and Constitutional Development has tabled three Bills in Parliament, at times known as the "crosstitute" Bills, namely the Constitution Fourteenth Amendment Bill, the Constitution Fifteenth Amendment Bill and the General Laws(Loss of Membership of National Assembly, Provincial Legislature or Municipal Council) Amendment Bill. The general premise of the proposed laws ought to abolish floor-crossing at every level of government and to revert to the position that existed prior to 2002-03 when floor-crossing was prohibited.
Our Deputy Minister has virtually summed up the whole lot, but if I repeat a few things, please forgive me. The Constitution Fourteenth Amendment Bill seeks to abolish floor-crossing in the NA and provincial legislatures, whilst the Constitution Fifteenth Amendment Bill seeks to do the same in municipal councils.
The General Laws Amendment Bill seeks to effect consequential amendments to other legislation affected by the proposed abolition of floor-crossing. The legislation must be passed and implemented before 1 September 2009.
On a lighter note, I must say, maybe the timing of this Bill was a bit wrong; it should have been left open for a little bit longer and we might have seen a different story. This is before the next floor-crossing window at local government level opens.
Both the Constitution Amendment Bills fall within the ambit of section 74 of the Constitution, whilst the membership Bill falls within that of section 75 of the Constitution and must, therefore, be passed according to the procedures set in these sections.
The act of abolishing floor-crossing means that the position reverts to the one that was applicable prior to 2002. The implications thereof are, firstly, that a member of the NA or provincial legislature or municipal council will no longer be able to become a member of another political party. If a member decides to change party allegiance, that person will lose their membership of the NA, provincial legislature or council.
Secondly, an existing political party will no longer be able to merge with another political party, to subdivide it into more than one political party, or to subdivide in the subdivision to merge with another political party. Thirdly, a political party will no longer be able to change the name of the party in the National Assembly, provincial legislature or municipal council at any time it chooses.
The merits and demerits of floor-crossing have been much debated in South Africa. As we've heard, the legislation that allowed elected representatives to change political allegiance without losing their seats was enacted, in part, to cater for the political circumstances that existed during 2002-03.
Despite the fact that the legislation passed constitutional scrutiny, it has not received popular support and every floor-crossing window period has brought with it renewed criticism from the public.
Whilst many countries allow for floor-crossing, in the South African context it has caused much discontent amongst voters and has possibly contributed to voter apathy.
Floor-crossing favours larger parties, while minority parties tend to lose members, which weakens democracy. The current electoral system, which is a closed-list proportional system, combined until now with floor-crossing, disempowers the voters as they have no way of calling public representatives to account for their actions.
In fact, the process of floor-crossing deprives the voter of any guarantee that the public representatives who were on the list of the party that the voter voted for would remain on that list until the next election. A closed- list proportional representative system, combined with floor-crossing, almost guarantees that public representatives will not be accountable to the individual voter.
The proposed legislation, therefore, seeks to address the current discontent with floor-crossing. It is hoped that these changes will strengthen democracy in a system based on proportional representation and multiparty democracy. The DA supports the Bill. I thank you. [Applause.]
Voorsitter, Adjunkminister, lede en kamerade, ek het vyf blaaie hier gehad, maar die Minister, soos die agb voorsitter van die komitee alreeds ges het, het omtrent alles verduidelik.
Ek het tog 'n paar interessante punte wat ek self wil ophaal. Die skrapping van hierdie wetgewing is eintlik om die demokrasie te verbreed. Nou wil ek ook darem aan die opposisie noem dat ons as die ANC die meeste voordeel uit hierdie wetgewing getrek het en ons het volstaan by die skrapping hiervan, maar ek hoor nie die agb Worth wens ons geluk en s vir ons dankie dat ons darem 'n goeie ding ook doen en dat ons nie net na die party se aanwins kyk nie. [Tussenwerpsels.]
Julle moet ons darem nie net altyd kritiseer nie, agb Watson. S darem ook as ons 'n goeie ding doen, want dis wat die demokrasie verbreed.
Agb Minister, hierdie oorloopwetgewing het veral die Wes-Kaap baie onstabiel gemaak, maar ons het 'n spesiale afgevaardigde van die Wes-Kaap wat seker verder hieroor sal uitbrei. U weet, ons vorige LUR, die agb Richard Dyantyi, het die munisipaliteite in die Wes-Kaap "maak-'n-las- munisipaliteite" genoem, en alles wat dit tot gevolg gehad het was nog net negatief en al die redes soos u dit genoem het, is bekend aan ons almal.
Ek wil net op een ding fokus, naamlik die negatiewe uitwerking wat dit op die amptenary gehad het. Toe die mag in 'n munisipaliteit verskuif het, was die munisipale bestuurder sy pos kwyt en amptenare was hul poste kwyt. 'n Baie bekende geval was di van Mgoqi in die Kaapse Metro, en wat is die uitwerking daarvan op dienslewering? Nou wil ek amper vra of dit gaan stop. Ons skrap nou hierdie oorloopwetgewing, maar moet ons nie miskien kyk hoe ons die termyne van amptenare ook in pas kan bring sodat hulle nie net enige tyd afgedank of vervang kan word nie en daar in 'n mate ook stabiliteit onder die amptenary is wat beleid betref? Die termyne van amptenare is ook belangrik.
Daar is ook 'n ander punt waarop ons moet fokus. Koalisievorming is ook iets wat die onstabiliteit veroorsaak het en was die gevolg van oorloopwetgewing. Nou wil ek die agb Watson se vere 'n bietjie omkrap. 'n Mens kry gevalle waar minderheidspartye bymekaarkom en dan 'n regering vorm wat die meerderheidsparty, wat immers die meeste stemme op hom verenig het, die reg ontneem om te regeer. Is dit nou demokrasie in werking, waar die meerderheid mense die meerderheidsparty ontneem word omdat 'n paar klein partytjies met een of twee manne saamkom om te regeer? [Tussenwerpsels.] Ja, ek het geweet ek gaan die vere 'n bietjie omkrap!
Die ander punt waarop ek ook u aandag wil vestig, het die agb Watson juis genoem. U sien, oorloopwetgewing is nou uit die weg geruim, maar daar is nou 'n nuwe tendens - raadslede bedank nou en dwing 'n tussenverkiesing af. [Tussenwerpsels.] Dit kan demokraties wees, maar in hoe 'n mate gaan ons koalisievorming en bedankings om 'n regering of enige wetgewer om te krap en te destabiliseer reguleer? Kan ons daarna kyk, want bedankings kom nou voor uit suiwer politieke motiewe, nie met die doel om die mense of demokrasie te dien nie. Dit is van die nuwe goed wat nou gebeur. Ons stop die oorloopwetgewing, maar nou kry mense alternatiewe. Ons is in 'n land waar ons leer.
Ons het nou uitgevind oorloopwetgewing is nie goed vir die demokrasie nie, maar daar is ander goed. Een van die goed, agb Watson, wat ek nogal verbaas is om te sien, en ek het dit in die komitee genoem aan my kollegas, is dat ek sien die DA adverteer in die koerante dat as 'n mens dink jy is LP- materiaal en jy kan dit motiveer, kan jy ... Daar is 'n advertensie in die koerante. [Tussenwerpsels.] Nou wonder ek net, hoe ... (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)
[Mr N J MACK: Chairperson, Deputy Minister, members and comrades, I had five pages here, but, as the hon chairperson of the committee has already said, the Minister has explained just about everything.
I still have a few interesting points that I would like to mention myself. The scrapping of this legislation will actually broaden democracy. But now I want to mention to the opposition that we as the ANC actually benefited most from this legislation and that we have contented ourselves with its scrapping, but I don't hear the hon Worth thanking and congratulating us on this good move and on not having just considered the party's gains. [Interjections.]
You shouldn't always just criticise us, hon Watson. If we do something right, just say so, because that is what broadens democracy.
Hon Minister, this floor-crossing legislation has made the Western Cape in particular very unstable, but we have a special delegate from the Western Cape who will surely elaborate on this. You know, our previous MEC, the hon Richard Dyantyi, called the municipalities in the Western Cape "make-a- nuisance" municipalities and what this has led to has only been negative, while the reasons, as mentioned by you, are known to us all.
I just want to focus on one thing, namely the negative effect this has had on the officials. When the power within a municipality shifted, that municipality's manager would lose his position and officials would lose their positions. A very well-known case was that of Mgoqi in the Cape Metro, and what was the effect of that on service delivery? I almost want to ask if this is now going to stop. We are now scrapping this floor- crossing legislation, but shouldn't we perhaps also be looking at aligning the terms of officials so that they can't be discharged or replaced at just any time and so that there can be a degree of stability among the officialdom as regards policy? The terms of officials are also important.
There is also another point we must focus on. The forming of coalitions, another factor that creates instability, is also the result of floor- crossing legislation. And now I want to ruffle the hon Watson's feathers a bit. There are cases when minority parties come together to form a government, denying the majority party, which of course amassed the most votes, the right to govern. Would that be democracy in action, when the majority of the people are denied their majority party because a few small parties with one or two people have come together in order to govern? [Interjections.] Yes, I knew I would be ruffling a few feathers.
The other point to which I would like to call your attention has just been mentioned by the hon Watson. You see, floor-crossing legislation has now been removed, but now there is a new trend - councillors are resigning and forcing by-elections. [Interjections.] It may be democratic, but to what extent are we going to regulate resignations and the forming of coalitions to upset a government or legislature? Can we take a look at that, because resignations are now occurring with purely political motives, not in order to serve the people or democracy. These are some of the new things that are now taking place. We have stopped the floor-crossing legislation, but now people are finding alternatives. We live and learn in this country. We have now come to realise that floor-crossing legislation is not good for democracy, but there are other things. One of them, hon Watson, which I was quite surprised to see, and in the committee I have mentioned this to my colleagues, is the DA advertising in the newspapers that if you think you are MP material and you can motivate accordingly, then you can try ... There's an advertisement in the newspapers. [Interjections.] I'm just wondering how ...]
Hon members, can I have order? Your noisy heckling is very, very disruptive.
Ek bedoel nie om u vere om te krap nie. Ek s maar net ek sien die advertensie in die koerant. Is daar nie genoeg mense in u eie geledere nie? Is daar te min om vir 12% voorsiening te maak? [Tussenwerpsels.]
Agb Minister, dis die paar goed wat ek wou opgehaal het. Baie dankie. [Applous.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)
[Mr N J MACK: I don't mean to ruffle your feathers. I'm just saying that I have seen the advertisement in the newspaper. Are there not enough people among your own ranks? Are there too few to make provision for 12%? [Interjections.]
Hon Minister, these are the few things that I wanted to mention. Thank you very much. [Applause.]]
Sihlalo, angibonge ukuthola leli thuba. Thina laphaya eqenjini leNkatha yeNkululeko yeSizwe uma into ilungile, ilungile nayingalungile ayilunganga. Engingakusho ukuthi ukusukuma kwami lapha uma ngixhasa impela kulo mthetho ngithi le nyoka yezinhloko ezimbili ayihambe. Ngisho ngoba uyabona igundane nexoxo zahlala ziyizitha ngoba ixoxo lathi uma lifika emnyango basukuma bonke endlini balinqanda impela balilahlela ngaphandle. Kwaqhamuka igundane bagxuma bonke baliyeka, ixoxo lakhononda lathi ngoba mina angoni lutho igundane liyamosa. Yini indaba lona liyekwa lingene endlini?
Ngithi kuKhongolose impela seniyohlala nisinda ngoba uMongameli sathi uma siya kuye, wathi yebo kuhle uma ngabe nifuna ukuwuchitha lo mthetho, hlanganani nivumelane anginayo inkinga naloko ngoba wayesazi ukuthi uyagwinya.
Uyabona ngabe nikhala esikaNandi namhlanje, ngabe nikhala isimaye-maye. Nivume ngesikhathi esikahle ukuthi awuchithwe lo mthetho ngakho-ke seniyohlala nisinda. Nwele olude! awuhambe lo mthetho inyoka yezinhloko ezimbili kanjena-ke Sihlalo. Amasela abehamba nezihlalo angazange azivotelwa. [Ubuwelewele.] Nawe bewuzoshaywa bhasobha uhleli phezu kwelahle. Ithi enye inhloko yalo, ugcogcoma uzohlala futhi lapha phakathi uyisela, untshontshile. Uthi manje ukhulumela abantu asazi usakhulumela baphi abantu ngoba abantu bebevotele iqembu hhayi wena. Ngakho empeleni ukube likhona ibhokisi lomgcwabo ngabe ngiyaqiniseka ukuthi siyalithatha leli bhokisi silingcwaba manje sivuke kusasa selingcwatshiwe. Hamba kahle kugcogcoma kwamalunga. (Translation of isiZulu speech follows.)
[Mr M A MZIZI: Chairperson, thank you for this opportunity. In the Inkatha Freedom Party when something is right, then it is right and if it is wrong, it is wrong. What I can say is that I rise in support of repealing this law. I am saying this because a rat and a frog will always be enemies because, when a frog enters through the door, everyone in the house gets up, catches it and throws it outside. When a rat enters they all jump up, but they do not throw it out, which causes the frog to complain, because it does not cause any damage to the property, whereas the rat does. So why are they leaving it inside?
We are saying to the African National Congress that the President saved you, because when we went to him he said that it is okay if we want to repeal this law. We must meet and reach an agreement on this; he does not have a problem with it. He said this because he knew that his party was gaining more members.
You are crying foul today; you shouldn't be crying. You reached an agreement to repeal this law at the right time, thus saving your own skin. Hooray! Away with this two-headed snake, Chairperson. The thieves were defecting with the seats into which they were not voted. [Interjections.] You were also in for a very high jump; you must be careful. Another head says that you also crossed the floor and you are also seated here amongst us; you are a thief. You are now saying that you are speaking on behalf of the people, but we do not know which people you are talking about, because they voted for the party and not for you. If there was a coffin, I would make sure that we bury this law so that when we wake up the next day, it will be done. Goodbye, floor-crossing.]
Hon Chairperson, hon members, hon Deputy Minister, the ACDP wholeheartedly supports this Bill and I believe it's very, very good.
We have been victims of this law. The ruling party was very wise to put a 10% threshold in the qualifications, otherwise they might also have lost people during that period. [Interjections.]
The ACDP is on record as opposing floor-crossing. We participated in a partially successful Constitutional Court challenge to the legislation that allowed floor-crossing. We therefore support these provisions that will bring an end to floor-crossing.
In a proportional list system such as we have, citizens vote merely for the party of their choice and its leader and not so much for the candidates on the party list, whom the vast majority of the voters do not know. It is a cardinal principle of the proportional representation system that elected members vacate their seats when they resign from their party or lose their party membership. This system, according to the electoral commission, ensures that the will of the people, as expressed in an election, cannot be negated and substituted by the will of an individual or a group of individuals. This principle is effectively negated by floor-crossing.
Chiara Carter, a journalist for The Star newspaper stated it well, and I quote:
Floor-crossing, a window period when elected representatives get to play musical chairs and switch party allegiance or even join one-man-bands of their own making, while retaining their seats and salaries, has been highly controversial since its inception in 2002.
The spectacle of politicians, dubbed "crosstitutes", embracing new, often expedient loyalties infuriated the public, swelled the ranks of larger parties and provided a lease of life for a good few career politicians.
In the view of the ACDP, floor-crossing presents one of the most serious threats to our multiparty democracy. Floor-crossing has also contributed significantly to voter apathy. Voters believe that it is useless to vote when elected representatives can defect to another party not representing the initial reason why they voted for them. Further, it has also engrained negative public perceptions of politicians as self-seeking opportunists, with voters being outraged at the political shenanigans exhibited during floor-crossing periods.
The ACDP is very happy that this Bill has come before this House and we fully support the Bill. I thank you.
O a bua mmarona, Modulasetilo, motlatsatona ntate Johnny de Lange, le badirammogo, Modulasetilo ke kopilwe gore ke bue ka dintlha tse di rileng mo Molaotlhomong o re nang le ona fa pele ga rona gompieno. Molaotlhomo o re nang le ona mo pele ga rona o tla morago ga gore ka 1994 re bone kgololosego ya rona. Ga re bona kgololosego e ya rona, dintlha dingwe tse di botlhokwa tse di tlhagelelang mo Molaotheong wa rona ke tse di reng re na le tshwanelo ya "freedom of association" ka puo ya seeng. Jaanong batho ba bangwe fa ba bona metheo e e botlhokwa e e leng pilara ya Molaotheo wa rona, makoko kganetso ba ne ba nagana gore ba ka e tsaya ba e dirisa go koafatsa African National Congress.
Re tla gopola gore Molao o, o o leng fa pele ga rona, batho ba ba neng ba eme ka dinao ba o batla e ne e le DP e e leng gore e tlhatlhama DA. Mo dikakanyong tsa bona fa ba ne ba bua ka Molao o gore o nne teng, ba ne ba re rona maloko a ANC re diaka, ba ne ba akanya gore re diaka. Ba nagana gore ga Molao o o le teng re tla ngala re tswe kwa ANC re ye kwa go bona. Ba ne ba nagana jalo. Maitlhomo mogolo a bona e ne e le go koafatsa ANC le gore temokerasi e ya rona e seka ya gola, e nne bokoa, ka gore fa o koafaditse ANC o tla bo o koafaditse bagaka ba ba netefaditseng gore batho ba ga rona ba nne le kgololosego e re nang le yona, ba ne ba akanya jalo.
Se se diregang ke gore fa re ntse re tswelela ba lemogile gore se ga se a ba tswela mosola. Jaanong e bo e nna bona ba fetogang batlhanka ba mafoko a bona. Jaanong ba re Molaotlhomo o, o fedisiwe ka gore ke maloko a bona ga ba na marapo a mokotla, ga ba ikanyege. Ba simolola jaanong ba tlogela makoko a bona ba ya go ikwadisa le mokgatlo mme re dira pharologanyo magareng ga Makoko le mokgatlho ba tlogela makoko ba a go join mokgatlho ka gore bosigo bo boneng bo le mo matlhong a bona bo ne bo apogile jaanong ba bona fa nnete e leng teng. Fa ba lela, baagi ba Aforika borwa ba tlelwa ke dikakanyo tsa gore seno ga se tiise temokerasi bogolo thata set?haba mme re lwetse temokerasi, fa set?haba se ne se tlhagisa dintlha tsa bona. (Translation of Setswana paragraphs follows.)
[Mr A L MOSEKI: You said a mouthful. Chairperson, Deputy Minister Mr Johnny de Lange, colleagues, I've been asked to speak about certain points in the Bill before us. This Bill came into effect after obtaining our freedom in 1994. It is mentioned in our Constitution that we have a right to freedom of association. The opposition parties looked into these important principles, which are the pillars of our Constitution and thought they could use them to weaken the African National Congress.
We still remember that the Bill before us was tabled by the DP, the predecessors to the DA. When they tabled this Bill, they thought that our members would not be loyal and thought that we would get angry and leave the ANC to join them. Their main objective was to weaken the ANC and not to expand our democracy, because weakening the ANC would have weakened the valiants who ensured that our people became free.
However, in the process they realised that this was not working for them as we made them eat humble pie. Now, they want this Bill to be abolished, because their members are not loyal as they are joining other parties. It is now that they realise where the truth lies. When they complained, the people of South Africa raised their views and realised that this thing does not enhance the democracy that we fought for, especially the nation.]
It was not about the strength of the ANC, it was about the fact that you need a very vibrant democracy and that a vibrant democracy ...
... o tlhoka le ona makoko a neng a simolola a felela gore bonnye ba nne le lentswe le rileng ba bue. Jaanong ka gore re mokgatlho wa batho re ANC, re reeditse dikgatlhego le dikakanyo tsa batho, mme tla ke go gopotse ntate Watson le ntate Worth gore Molao o o re buisanang ka ona gompieno, ke mongwe wa di thulaganyo tse di lebisitseng kwa kongereseng ya kwa Polokwane. Ga ba ema fa ntate Le Roux, jaaka ntate Mack ke gore re nne re leboga gore dilo dingwe tse dintsi tse di dirilweng ke kopano eo, ke dilo tse di botlhokwa tota go tiisa temokerasi ya rona, re nne re leboga ntate Watson, re nne boikanyego mo bathong ka dilo tse di ntseng jalo.
Re le mokgatlho wa batho, re netefaditse gore temokerasi e nna teng re dumalane le dikakanyo tseo tsa batho mme re be re re ga gona rrapolotiki yo e leng gore wa itlotla, o tlotla batho ba a buang gore wa ba emela, o a tshwanetseng gore a itshole jaaka seaka, nako le nako a lebeletse dikgatlhego tsa gagwe fela le baki ya gagwe gore o apara eng, a sa labelela dikgatlhego tsa batho baga rona. Borradipolotiki ba ba ntseng jalo ntate tsweetswee, ga di na nnete waitse, ga di a tshwanela gore batho ba ga rona ba di tseye ka tlhoafalo borradipolotiki ba ba ntseng jalo. Ke batho ba e leng gore ba re "ga fela nna ke na le sengwe se ke se tsentseng mo kgetseng, go siame ga ke kgathale gore ope a reng, mara ka nako e rileng ke tla boela kwa bathong ba, ke re mpouteleng gape, ga ba sa dire jalo, nna ke tla iponna tsela".
Molao o, o re buisanyang ka ona, o ne o dira dilo tse, o ne o letlelela mokgwa o maswe o le gopola ntate Thetjeng, e ne e le lona le neng le o batla Molaotheo oo, re rata gore jaaka ANC, re re jaaka re tsere tshweetso kwa Polokwane gore re batla gore temokerasi ya rona e nonofe e tie, molao o o na le kemonokeng e e feletseng ya ANC. Ka mantswe a Modulasetilo, ke a leboga. (Translation of Setswana paragraphs follows.) [... also needs small parties so that at least they too have a word. We, the ANC, are the people's party; we listened to the interests and views of the people. May I remind Mr Watson and Mr Worth that the Bill before us today articulates core views that led to the Polokwane resolution. As they stand before us, Mr Le Roux, just like Mr Mack, we should be thankful for the important things that the congress did to enhance our democracy, and we would also like to thank Mr Watson, and be honest with the people about such things.
We, the people's party, ensured that for our democracy to exist, we must align ourselves with the views of the people. And we say that there is not a politician, who respects himself or herself and the people, who can claim to represent them, but who behaves like a prostitute every time by looking after his or her own interests and being more concerned about what jacket he or she wears, and not looking at the interests of our people.
Such politicians, Mr Thetjeng, are hypocrites, and our people are not supposed to take them seriously. They are the kind of people who say, "As long as I have something in my pocket, it's fine and I don't care, but at a certain time I will go back to the people and ask them to vote for me; if they don't, I'll see how I will sort myself out". The Bill we are debating allowed such things to happen and remember, Mr Thetjeng, you were the one who wanted this Bill. Now, as the ANC, we would like to make our position known as part of the resolution we took in Polokwane, which is to improve our democracy. The ANC completely supports this Bill. Thank you.]
Chairperson, hon Deputy Minister De Lange, hon chairperson of the select committee and hon members, I am here this afternoon to represent the Western Cape.
The hon Deputy Minister and other members have essentially said what needed to be said about this Bill. But may I take you back a bit, because sometimes you need to know where you are coming from in order to know where you are going.
South Africa has travelled a long road since January 2001 when the DA's Tony Leon and Douglas Gibson began agitating for floor-crossing legislation to enable their party to formalise a marriage of convenience with the New NP. We all know that the DP was in control of the DA at that time, and they still are. But even while the national ANC government was contemplating the request from Leon and Gibson, it quickly became apparent that there were irreconcilable differences within the ranks of the newlyweds, with some Nats wanting to walk out.
Nevertheless, when the ANC government introduced constitutional amendments allowing floor-crossing in 2002 and 2003, the DA was among the parties which said "aye" with a surprising level of enthusiasm.
Irrespective of what has happened since, I think we need to take some time to remind ourselves of the purpose of the floor-crossing legislation. The hon Deputy Minister and other members have already referred to this. The amendments to the law were promulgated to enable members of the National Assembly, provincial legislatures and municipal councils to become members of another political party without having to resign their seats first. Here is the part that the DA liked - the new legislation also provided an existing political party with the opportunity to merge with another party; to subdivide into more than one political party; or to subdivide and to further allow anyone of its subdivisions to merge with another political party.
But there is an old South African saying which, I think, goes something like this: Never wear dark glasses when reading the small print of a political merger. [Laughter.] It is easy to be wise after the fact. But it turned out that the marriage between the DP and the New NP wasn't made in heaven after all. When the DP and the DA realised their mistake, they changed from being among the staunchest supporters of floor-crossing to ones that began shouting "scrap the law!" [Interjections.]
In calling for the abolition of the law, an understandably embarrassed DA constitutional guru, Ryan Coetzee, was not too keen to admit that his party was once one of the keenest advocates of floor-crossing. In some ways, I don't blame him for having been so embarrassed. When he said, during an interview, that the job at hand was not to argue over the genesis of floor- crossing, I could almost see the sheepish look on his face.
He added:
Our responsibility as legislators now is to look critically at the legislation, to assess the manner in which it is being used, to determine its impact on our democratic processes and, above all, to listen to what the voters are saying about it. Having done that, we must respond in the appropriate way.
It was classic mumbo jumbo from a party guru - and I use the word "guru" with a certain amount of caution - who had been tactically outmanoeuvred by his political opponents.
As a representative of one of Coetzee's political opponents, I want to say to the NCOP today that the ANC government of the Western Cape supports the scrapping of the floor-crossing legislation as envisaged in the Constitution Fourteenth Amendment Bill. Allow me to explain why this is the case.
The Western Cape government wants to see floor-crossing legislation scrapped, not because we have been unable to use it to our political advantage, because we have; not because it sends us into a blind panic at election time - on the contrary, we have always been confident at election time for very good reasons; not because we have been desperately looking for ways to occupy the moral high ground with regard to the law as it has stood for the past few years - we always acted with the utmost integrity in our dealings with those who wanted to join us from other parties; but because we believe that the political landscape that necessitated the promulgation of the law in the first place has now changed, as the Deputy Minister also mentioned.
We know that there is growing opposition to floor-crossing among politicians and the general population. But believe me, I know that those who fought so endlessly to make floor-crossing possible, when they realised that they were the net losers, referred to those who took the plunge - and sometimes courageously so - as prostitutes, sell-outs, flip-floppers and, crazily, even cross-dressers!
We, in the ANC, understand and know why people are opposed to political representatives simply upping, quitting and joining another party without first resigning from Parliament, the legislature ... [Interjections.]
Chairperson, on a point of order: Will the member take a question?
Will you take a question, hon member?
Chairperson, I will take many questions, but I would prefer to get into a debate with the hon member once I have finished my speech.
No! Just tell us why it took you so long to leave.
You may continue, hon member.
Thank you, Chairperson. While the law was being implemented, we were more than happy to accept people from other parties who wanted to join the ANC. We have always said - and we genuinely believe this - that the policies and value systems of the ANC are wonderfully persuasive. To put it in another way, the ANC has excellent policies. In instances where people generally believed in the policies of our organisation and if there were some years to go before the next elections, we were always more than happy to accept them as members in our organisation in terms of floor-crossing legislation. But now, of course, they will have to wait. But I am sure they will understand.
We understand and accept that the scrapping of the legislation will take us back to the position we were in prior to 2002. Where were we prior to 2002? Well, simply this: In terms of the amendments that are under discussion here today, and I have referred to this, members can no longer join other parties without losing their seats, unless they resign. We also understand that an existing political party will no longer be able to merge with another political party and all that goes with that. We are comfortable with that.
In conclusion, I would like to say how proud I am to witness our young democracy preparing itself to take another giant step on a journey that I am convinced will ultimately lead to the building of a truly great country. Make no mistake, floor-crossing legislation has tested the commitment of our country to democracy. The legislation offered us choices. It said to us that now was the time to look to the future. We must decide which direction we want to move in. In opting to support the amendments to floor-crossing, I am thrilled to say that, so far, we have made wise choices. I thank you. [Applause.]
Chairperson, I was very impressed by the hon Brynard's intimate knowledge about what has happened in the DA. I understand he just missed one person, namely Colin Eglin, who really started it. I remember that speech in the NA in 1995-96; I think it was then. But I also understand the hon Brynard's intimate knowledge about floor-crossing is because he has personal experience of crossing the floor. [Laughter.]
Voorsitter, die VF was van die begin af gekant teen enige oorlopery, die rede synde dat ons dit beskou het as politieke prostitusie en politieke owerspel. Di woorde is vandag hier gebruik. Die nadelige effek spesifiek in hierdie Huis ... (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)
[Chairperson, the FF was opposed to any floor-crossing from the start, the reason being that we regard it as political prostitution and political adultery. These words were used here today. The negative consequences in this House specifically ...]
Chair, will the member take a question?
Chairperson, I think I must take the question. Yes, ask your question. [Applause.]
The question is simple and short. Has the member never ever moved from one political party to the other?
I thank you for that question. Mr Chairperson, yes, I have moved, but I didn't cross the floor. I resigned, hon Windvol. I left politics in 1999 and I started my law practice and then I resigned from the NP and I eventually joined the FF. I didn't cross the floor. Thank you.
Die nadelige effek is dat oorlopery op 'n stadium 'n lid van hierdie Raad baie nadelig getref het omdat, wat in sy wetgewer gebeur het, hom baie nadelig benvloed het. Dit was 'n ANC-lid.
Daar word bereken dat sowat 1 miljoen stemme gesteel is as gevolg van oorlopery. Die VF verwelkom die verwydering van hierdie wet wat ons van die begin af teengestaan het. Ek dank u. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)
[The negative consequence of floor-crossing is that at one stage it badly affected a member of this Council, because what had happened in his legislature had a very negative impact on him. He was an ANC member.
It is calculated that 1 million votes were stolen as a result of floor- crossing. The FF welcomes the scrapping of this Act which we opposed from the start. I thank you.]
Thank you, hon Chairperson, Deputy Minister de Lange, hon members and friends. I think hon Darryl Worth, hon van Heerden and hon Mzizi have missed an opportunity, and that was the opportunity to thank the ANC for being a progressive movement because, if the ANC was not progressive, we would not have agreed to change this law. But, because we are progressive, we have agreed.
I thought as hon members they would be able to be humble and thank the ANC for being rational. I am saying this because the ANC is the party that benefited most during floor-crossing and we are the majority; instead of saying, as we are here, we want to gain more ...
Chairperson, is it parliamentary for a member to refer to us as being horrible?
I didn't hear that. I will make a ruling.
He said it: "You are horrible".
I will make a ruling at a later stage.
Chairperson, I think I am cutting close to the bone and that's why the member could not sit still.
Maybe the member is so horrible that he is not sure of himself.
Hon Tau, you are extremely out of order.
Baba uThetjeng mhlawumbe ukuthi isiNgisi akulona ulimi lwami kungenzeka ngithe ngiyakhuluma wangangizwa kahle, kodwa-ke bengifuna ukucacisa kahle. Ngesikhathi kunikezelwa ngezimali ngenkathi yokuqembuka nezihlalo kubonakele ukuthi uma umuntu ehamba lapha uhamba nemali. Kube khona imali ephumayo eya kwelinye iqembu ngakho-ke kubonakele ukuthi akukuhle kahle.
Kukhona abanye abantu ikakhulukazi laba bantu ebebevula amaqembu abo amancane. Laba bantu bazithola sebephethe izigaxa zemali uvese ubone nje ukuthi phela ubusela lobu ngoba laba bantu badla bodwa futhi abafuni ukuphathwa. Umuntu usephuma lapha angene laphaya ukuze akwazi ukuzitholela imali futhi akwazi nokuphatha imali enkulu.
Abanye babo kutholakala ukuthi kuthi bengakaphenduli ngezimali abebezinikiwe, sebejombile sebeye kwenye inhlangano. Kusale ukuthi izimali abebenikezwe zona zenzanjani. Ngeke usabafica abasekho sebekwenye inhlangano.
Lokhu kusho ukuthi kuyasiza ukubakhona kukaKhongolose, kufanele amanye amaqembu akujabulele lokho. Mina ngiyaye ngithi bangisiza ekhaya bangizala ngakhulela kuKhongolose ngoba angazi ngisho nokuthi kubanjani uma ukwelinye iqembu. [Uhleko.]
Ngiye ngimbuke nje umuntu ehamba eqembuka nesitulo ngingazi noma kubuhlungu kodwa yena ehamba nje. Kodwa-ke manje ngibona sengathi aseyancipha lawo mathuba okuthi nani ngelinye ilanga nibe ngamalungu kaKhongolose njengoba usunqamuka lo mthetho.
Okubi kakhulu kithina malungu oMkhandlu Kazwelonke Wezifundazwe ukuthi beningakwazi ukubamba iqhaza mayelana nokuqembuka nezihlalo kodwa bekuncike kwabanye abantu ongabazi ukuthi bacabanga kanjani. Uthole ukuthi umuntu avele anqume ukuthi yena useyahamba bese kuvele kuthinteke nawe.
Kwaba buhlungu kabi lapha kukhona amalungu ahambayo kodwa kutholakala ukuthi futhi ahamba nje hhayi ngoba ethanda. Isibonelo nje abanye abantu esifundazweni banquma ukuthi bayahamba kwase kuthinteka ilungu elilapha sekufuneka nalo lihambe, liphelelwe yisikhathi. Okusho ukuthi kithina malungu oMkhandlu Kazwelonke Wezifundazwe ngibona sengathi lokhu kuphela kwalo mthetho wokuqembuka nezihlalo kusisizile. Sengigcina Sihlalo ngifisa ukusho ukuthi laba bantu abathi abantu abaqembukayo ngonondindwa, kungcono vese ukuthi bababize kanjalo ... [Ubuwelewele.] (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)
[Mr Z C NTULI: Hon Thetjeng, maybe it is because English is not my home language, so it may happen that you misunderstood me, but in fact I simply wanted to give clarity. When the allocations were given to political parties during the floor-crossing period, it was discovered that if a person leaves a party, he leaves with the money. There would be an amount of money that would be paid to the party that is getting a new member and certain parties took a dim view of this.
Some people who had crossed the floor formed their own small parties. And they would find themselves carrying big chunks of money, and you would immediately realise that this is pure stealing, because this person is on his own and he does not want to be led. You would find them hopping from one party to the other, just because they knew that they would get money out of that and be able to carry a big chunk of money again.
Some of them simply jumped ship and crossed the floor again to another party, just before they could even give an account of the monies given to them. This would leave everybody in the dark as to what exactly happened to the monies that had been given to them. No one was able to make them account for the money, because they had crossed the floor again to another party.
This, therefore, means that the presence of the ANC helps, and the other parties should appreciate that. I always say that I am grateful to my parents, because I was born and bred in the ANC and I do not know what it feels like to be in another party. [Laughter.]
Sometimes I would simply watch in silence when a member crossed the floor and wonder how he felt, whether it was painful or not as he crossed the floor. Unfortunately the chances of you here becoming ANC members are getting very slim, since this law is now coming to an end.
What was even worse for us, as members of the National Council of Provinces, is that we were unable to control floor-crossing, and it all depended on other people, and we did not even know what they were thinking. A person would simply decide that he was leaving and you would be affected.
It was so sad at one stage here in the NCOP when there were members who left unwillingly. An example here was when members of the provincial legislature decided to cross the floor and the member in the NCOP was affected, and unfortunately the member had to leave, because that was the end of the term for the member. So this means that the scrapping of this law will help us, as members of the National Council of Provinces.
In conclusion, hon Chairperson, I want to say that those people who refer to the members who cross the floor as prostitutes would do better calling themselves exactly that ... [Interjections.]]
Hon member, can I take a question or point of order?
Thank you, hon Chairperson, is the member prepared to take a question? May I please know, are you aware that the ANC never won in KwaZulu-Natal and you are now supporting this legislation because you are afraid of Cope? Are you aware of that? [Interjections.] It is a question.
Hon member, that is just rhetoric.
Ngiyabonga. Ilungu lichitha isikhathi sami. Mama uMchunu mina bengicabangela wena ukuthi uma bekuqhubeka lokhu kuqembuka wena ubuzohamba lapha [Uhleko.] Ngakho-ke malungu ahloniphelile ngiyabonga ukuthi lo mthetho sizovumelana ngawo ukuthi siwuqede.
Bengisathi kuyangimangaza kulaba bantu ababiza abanye ngonondindwa ngoba bethi abawufuni lo mthetho. Ngike ngezwa nobaba uvan Heerden laphaya ukuthi bona abayifuni le nto kodwa uthola ukuthi uma umuntu eza kubona akabizwa ngonondindwa ubizwa ngelungu elihloniphekile. Kusho ukuthi kusobala basika nganxanye njengommese. Ngiyabonga Sihlalo. [Ihlombe.] (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)
[Mr Z C NTULI: Thank you. The hon member is just wasting my time. Madam Mchunu, I was just assisting you because, had the floor-crossing continued, you would have lost your seat here and left us. [Laughter.] I am therefore, hon members, very grateful that we all agree that this piece of legislation should be repealed.
I was still saying, I am pleasantly surprised by those people who call others prostitutes just because they say they do not want floor-crossing. I have also heard the hon van Heerden saying that they are against this thing, but you find that if a member crosses the floor to join them, they do not call that member a prostitute, instead they call him an hon member. Therefore, it is clear that they are two-faced. Thank you, Chairperson. [Applause.]]
Chairperson, thank you. Hon members, it is not often that you can participate in a debate where everyone agrees. The big problem with a debate where everyone agrees is that you then have to make up reasons and find things to say! So you'll find hon Mzizi talking about frogs, and others about coming out of the light into the darkness and from the darkness into the light. This is all because they all agree with this legislation, so they do not know what to say. So it is pleasant to participate in a debate where all South Africans agree. I think it is an historic event, probably. There are some aspects the hon Mack raised that we would hopefully start discussing in the new Parliament. It is something that worries me and I know it is done in most countries, but I don't think we can afford it in a country like ours, where we have few resources and few skills and every time we have to change administration.
Of course, there must be some change in administrations. Most countries do it, but I must say, in our country I have found it very unacceptable, even as is the case in my own party. Sometimes, in some local governments, we just change people wholesale and start all over again. It is something we must discuss and it is good the hon Mack has raised it because it is not an easy issue to discuss or debate.
People say, "When I come to power and I have the support of the people, I want people there that I will put there." So it is a difficult issue, but it is something that we have to look at maturely. Maybe we should look at it in terms of the fact that there are certain core jobs that actually should remain unchanged with the change in administration, because you want to keep delivery going.
We have been in this game for at least 15 years. Most of us who were not in Parliament before understand that every time you change staff and people and policies, it takes a long time to get those things moving again. It is something we should flag. It is something we should really discuss.
All that is left for me to say is this: History should record that this country reached a certain stage in the year 2001-02 where there was a necessity for us to deal with the matter of floor-crossing, which we introduced to the country. History should also recall that the introduction of that legislation did achieve some of the objectives that we wanted to achieve, but history should also recall that the introduction of the whole concept of floor-crossing had many unwanted effects and many of them were negative. History should report, very importantly, that in the year 2008, when it was necessary, we had analysed and concluded that we don't need floor-crossing anymore. We as a country and all the parties unanimously decided to get rid of it.
Let us use this opportunity to try and always put our dealings in politics and our governance issues at a higher level, a level that we can be proud of as a country and as a nation, and hopefully this experiment with floor- crossing will have taught us some lessons, which we probably never want to go back to. Thank you very much to all the parties supporting this legislation - and next time, when you support legislation, you do not have to write a speech to come and explain it. Thank you very much.
Debate concluded.
Question put: That the Constitution Fourteenth Amendment Bill be agreed to.
IN FAVOUR: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West, Western Cape.
Constitution Fourteenth Amendment Bill accordingly agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
General Laws (Loss of Membership of National Assembly, Provincial Legislature or Municipal Council) Amendment Bill agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.
Chairperson, I see two provinces have abstained. Is that Lesotho and Swaziland?
I will deal with that. I am not sure whether Lesotho and Swaziland are part of our country. I will not mention that there are two members here who persistently vote when we call delegation heads to vote.
Hon members, on a very serious note: This is a procedural and constitutional issue. You are not committing a crime, but it might create the impression that we do not understand our Rules and our procedures. I really want to caution members that we take it quite seriously, particularly in the context of us being a public forum where everybody - 48 million South Africans - actually looks at us.