Hon Speaker, members of the House, we are greatly honoured by the invitation to join the Brazil, Russia, India and China, Bric, grouping. The invitation indicates the high regard with which our country is viewed internationally.
We will attend our first Brazil, Russia, India and China, Bric, South Africa, Brics, summit on the 14th of April as a member, which will be held in Sanya, in the Hainan province of China. We have also been invited to attend and address the 10th Boao Forum for Asia on the 15th of April, an equivalent of the World Economic Forum's Davos meetings, but focusing on Asia only. This provides an opportunity to communicate our priorities as well as opportunities.
Brics is an important grouping to be part of, given the role of emerging economies in advancing the restructuring of the global political, economic and financial architecture into one that is more equitable and balanced and which rests on the important pillar of multilateralism. We also see the Non- Aligned Movement and the G77 as important for South Africa's interaction, especially within the framework of the United Nations, UN.
South Africa and Brics member states already collaborate and will continue to work together closely in various international organisations and formations such as the UN, the G20 and the India, Brazil, South Africa, Ibsa, dialogue forum. All Brics countries serve on the UN Security Council as permanent or nonpermanent members. This augurs positively for enhanced co-operation efforts on issues of common interest.
In addition to Brics, we also value our membership of the Ibsa group. This mechanism is important, not only for enhancing our trilateral partnership with India and Brazil, but also as an important pillar for strengthening the muscle of the South in global affairs. We believe that the Ibsa group will get a better balance and become even stronger with South Africa now as a member of Brics, more especially since the mandates of Brics and Ibsa complement each other.
It is important to note also that Ibsa and Brics provide a link with the African continent for the two groupings and strengthens our position as a gateway to Africa. The groupings offer a big lucrative market for our goods and services and lots of opportunities to implement our Industrial Policy Action Plan and the New Growth Path framework. We will actively promote trade and investment which enhances industrialisation and promotes job creation.
We also co-operate as members in the areas of finance, agriculture, statistics, justice, development finance institutions, business development and exchange, as well as academia. New areas of co-operation within Brics are being explored in science and technology, culture, sport, climate change and energy. The scope is very wide to co-operate on various projects within the Brics structures, as well as in the areas referred to by the hon member. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr Speaker and Mr President. I would just like to check with you, Mr President, if you would agree that we need to increase the value and proportion of South Africa's value-added exports within the Bric countries themselves, to Bric countries. Will you share with this House - I think you have already done a lot of that - how Brics contributes to this. So, it would be the value-added exports that we can, in fact, export within the Bric countries. Thank you very much.
Speaker, yes, definitely, the membership of the Republic of South Africa with regard to Brics will certainly add value to our trade and, particularly, exports to these countries. We already have such bilateral relations with individual countries. This is going to enhance that relationship and, certainly, the opportunities are very great for South Africa to do business with the Brics member states. Thank you.
Hon President, the ACDP supports the stated goals of the Brics group which are harmony, stability and win-win outcomes in economic development. The continued economic prosperity of the Brics nations stands in stark contrast to the fragile recoveries of the United States and Western Europe economies.
Hon President, whilst there are most definite economic benefits, as you have pointed out, is it expected that there will also be a shift from economic to political co-operation in Brics which could have a substantial impact on the ability of emerging economies to influence current geopolitical events, such as the global climate change, reform of the UN system, the pro-democracy demonstrations in Northern Africa and even the impact of the Japanese natural disaster?
Do you believe that such geopolitical events will be discussed during the first summit of Brics leaders to be held in Beijing next month as they clearly impact on global economic development? Thank you, President.
Speaker, certainly the influence of this grouping is already being felt internationally. The coming together of these countries in the changing political and economic landscape of the globe is one of the important ones. It is one of the emerging groupings that will certainly influence the political events of the world.
Certainly, as you know, these countries, all of them, belong to the UN Security Council where final decisions of the UN are commonly taken. Precisely because of the meeting and of this grouping, it is obvious that these groupings will, among other things, discuss the political events in the world and, perhaps, take common positions. I think that will help the world to make this grouping emerge with a very strong voice on all issues that are current globally, including the issues in the Northern African area. Certainly, this adds a very positive voice to the discourse, globally.
Mr President, we know that the South African population does not compare well with our partners in Brics. In China it is more than a billion; in India, it is more than a billion; and in Russia and Brazil, it is close to 140 and 190 million people. Our economy is also less than a quarter of Russia's economy and five provinces in China are larger than us. We are small, but if we go into Brics as a regional market, it will be different.
I want to know from the hon President what his view is on this and whether he is prepared to lobby for the SADC as a group to join with South Africa this new block in future. Secondly, I want to know whether South Africa will have to exercise restraint being a partner in Bric in criticising human rights violations in some of these countries in future.
Speaker, certainly, South Africa does not pretend to have a big land mass at her disposal, nor the population close to the population of the other member states, but certainly South Africa is recognised by these countries and globally.
The fact that these countries have invited South Africa to participate shows that they understand the importance of South Africa. As you know, in one description of South Africa, you can say that South Africa is small and has a small economy, but the reality is that South Africa is the biggest economy on the continent of Africa. That is another side of the coin. [Applause.] Precisely the point I made as I was answering the very first question is that the membership of South Africa links Africa with the world. That must indicate our view of ourselves with regard to the continent. We are not cutting ourselves off the continent. In fact, for South Africa or any of the countries on the continent not being the member of Ibsa or Brics would have meant that Africa is not part of the global political or economic activities. The fact that South Africa is part - a very powerful region - means the continent of Africa with one billion people is represented.
Therefore, this emerging and fast-growing market of the continent links up to these two groupings very well. It compensates whatever else. South Africa, therefore, as it goes in there, clearly represents a very powerful region in one sense. As a country, it also represents itself. South Africa also has its own policies and values which it has always cherished.
The question of human rights is one of the important elements of the beliefs of all of us in South Africa. We may not agree on anything, but that is the only point that we agree on - human rights. Is that not so? Everybody agrees on this one. It is important. We are going to be consistent regarding this issue, like all other countries. Wherever the question of human rights emerges, we will be very principled. We will raise the issue. We are not going to change or say that our relationship with these counties is based on us compromising our principles. We will always stand on our principles. [Applause.]
Speaker, the World Economic Forum, which the President just mentioned in his reply to the hon Fubbs, publishes a global competitiveness report every year. The latest one finds that South Africa ranks last among the Brics nations in terms of labour market efficiency, with China ranked the highest at position 38, and South Africa the lowest at 97. The report finds that our position is worsened by performance in three main areas; firstly, inflexible hiring and firing practices; secondly, a lack of flexibility in wage determination by companies; and thirdly, we have poor labour-employer relations. What reforms will this government implement to replicate the other Bric nations' success in increasing labour market efficiency, particularly in these three areas?
Speaker, the question of the labour matters is not as simple as we look at it. South Africa has a history, and part of the problem that we have such huge unemployment is because of our bad legacy. There was a systematic system to make the majority of the people of this country not to be empowered educationally. [Applause.] Therefore, how we tackle the question of labour is not the same as in other countries.
You will recall that there was a huge chunk of workers in this country who were not recognised by law, like farmworkers and domestic workers. That indicates clearly where we come from. The issue of the skills, for example, in this country is precisely because of our history. So we are dealing with those matters. The manner in which the labour laws have been developed in this country since 1994 had to answer to those challenges in the first instance. So we are not like other countries. We know this. Other countries in Brics know this.
We know how to handle that issue. We have programmes in the country that try to cover the ground that was covered by other countries that did not have apartheid many years ago. Those matters have to be taken into account as we look at how the labour system is exercised in one country or the other, particularly as compared to South Africa.
South Africa has been recognised as one country that is like two countries. We are dealing with these matters, and I think in the process, our interaction with these countries helps us to open up the space and to quicken those processes and therefore to look at the labour system. They have their own labour systems.
Bear in mind, if you look at the Far East, the labour system is something else. It is those very countries that are praised today because they are moving very fast. However, if you look at the trade union level and the organisations in those countries, it's a different story. So, we are coming in with different experiences and that will help us to determine how we can all move forward and reach the standards that will be globally accepted. [Applause.] Public Protector's findings against National Police Commissioner
2. The Leader of the Opposition (DA) asked the President of the Republic:
Whether, in light of the Public Protector's findings on 22 February 2011 that the conduct of a certain person (name and details furnished), was improper, unlawful and amounted to maladministration, the said person is still fit to serve the country in his current capacity; if not, what is the position in this regard; if so, what are the relevant details? NO632E
Speaker, I have received the Public Protector's report, and I am studying it. I am also awaiting reports from the Minister of Justice and Constitutional Development and the Secretary to Cabinet, who are already in discussion with the Public Protector on the issues she has raised. Once I have received all the outstanding information, I shall consider the matter and decide what steps, if any, need to be taken. I am, therefore, not in a position to fully answer the question posed by the hon member yet, as that would be tantamount to prejudging the issues.
Let me emphasise that government holds all its Chapter 9 institutions in very high regard. We uphold the Constitution of our country and value these institutions that support our democracy. The fact that we have such independent institutions, to which members of the public can refer cases of alleged maladministration or any other concerns, demonstrates the success of our democracy in only 17 years of freedom. It is a reminder of what we have achieved as a people after more than a century of colonial oppression and apartheid.
Government will co-operate with the Public Protector and take this matter to its conclusion. I thank you, hon Speaker.
Hon Speaker, through you to the hon President, at the launch of the African Ombudsman Research Centre in Durban, KwaZulu-Natal, on Tuesday, you stated:
We respect the work of the Public Protector even when we disagree with the findings or censure from that office. We respect our Chapter 9 institutions, as well as the judiciary and Parliament, the other two independent arms of the state.
Mr President, why then did your Cabinet bizarrely announce on 3 March that it has "instructed the Secretary to Cabinet and the Minister of Justice to interact with the Public Protector's office on the report", thereby seemingly challenging the contents of the Public Protector's report, rather than addressing the serious finding of misconduct against the National Police Commissioner? Your admission today that you are awaiting that report from the Secretary to Cabinet and the Minister of Justice and Constitutional Development implies that the finding and sanction of the Public Protector must be sanctioned, which undermines the independence of this very Chapter 9 institution. What is your position thereon?
Speaker, I fail to understand in the question what it is that is alleged to be a step that undermines the Public Protector's office. I don't get it, because the hon member says that Cabinet took a decision that the Secretary to Cabinet should interact with the Public Protector. Now, does that undermine anything? I don't think so, because it means that Cabinet may want to get clarity on the matter.
If you recall, that report states things, specifically, that the Secretary to Cabinet must do, as well as the Minister. So, why should the Secretary to Cabinet not interact to clarify issues, so that he is clearer on what to do about the determinations that have been made by the Public Protector? I don't see anything undermining the office of the Public Protector. I see collaboration and co-ordination in an attempt to address the issues. [Applause.]
Somlomo, Mhlonishwa Mongameli uma ngabe kone liphi elinye iphoyisa noma-ke ngubani omunye othintekayo emaphoyiseni, siye sizwe ngakusasa sekuthiwa usenqunyiwe emsebenzini ngoba kusenziwa uphenyo.
Maningi amacala asenzekile engingawasho kodwa nje ngeke ngikuchithele isikhathi angizukuwasho. Lapho amaphoyisa noma abathintekayo kutholakala ukuthi kufuneka bayohlala ekhaya ngoba kusaphenywa; kwenzekani kulokhu Mongameli? Ngiyabonga Somlomo.
UMONGAMELI WERIPHABHULIKHI: Ngiyabonga Somlomo, ngilibonge nelungu elihloniphekile ngombuzo walo. UBab' uGatsheni ngenkathi ebuza umbuzo wakhe uthe uma kutholakala abonileyo, abathintekayo emaphoyiseni, ngamanye amagama abenze amacala. Kuye kuthathwe izinyathelo ezisheshayo yini?.
Ngicabanga ukuthi lapha ukhuluma ngodaba lapho kube khona uphenyo luphenywa nguMvikeli Womphakathi, ngemuva kokuthi kube khona obeke isikhalo. Wathi uyasola ukuthi kukhona okungahambanga kahle lapha, akashongo ukuthi umphenyi makaphenye nangu lo usenze icala. Umehluko ulapho-ke.
Uyaphenya-ke umphenyi. [Uhleko.] Uma esefika ekugcineni, eseyiphothula indima yakhe, usethi uthola ukuthi sengathi kukhona okungahambanga kahle. Usethula umbiko okufanele ukuba awethule kuhulumeni. Yiwona lona esixoxa ngawo ukuthi kwenzekani ngawo manje. Akufani-ke, Boya beNyathi, nokuthi kukhona owonile njengomuntu owenze icala, okufanele ukuthi ahlehliswe, kwehlukile lokhu.
Kube khona osolile, wase ethi akuphenywe, kwaphenywa. Kwathi uma sekuphothulwa umbiko, umbiko wase ubonisa ukuthi sengathi kukhona okungahambanga kahle, uthulwa kulabo abafanele okuyibona okufanele bathathe isinqumo. Umehluko ulapho Gatsheni. Yingakho-ke kulokhu kungathathwanga izinyathelo ezifana nalezi ezithathelwe abanye. [Ihlombe.] (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)
[Mr V B NDLOVU: Speaker, hon President, if one police officer or any other person working in the Police Service has done something wrong, the following day we hear that that particular person is suspended from work while he or she is being investigated.
There are many cases that have occurred which I could count but won't because I don't intend to waste your time. What happened, President, to the suspension of members in respect of them being asked to stay home while investigations take place? Thank you, Speaker.
I thank the hon member for his question. Mr Gatsheni, in putting forward his question, put emphasis on the identified wrongdoers in the Police Service, in other words those who are guilty. Are urgent steps being taken?
I think here he is referring to the investigation by the Public Protector after a complaint was lodged. He said he suspected that something did not go accordingly; he did not say the investigator must investigate the person who committed a crime. The difference lies there.
The investigator investigates. [Laughter.] If she arrives at a conclusion, then she says she discovered that something did not go accordingly. Then she presents a report to government. This is the report we are talking about here, asking what happened to it. It is different, Boya Benyathi, from saying someone did wrong like someone who committed a crime, who must be pushed aside; this one is different.
There is someone who had suspicions, requested an investigation and the matter was investigated. If the report is compiled and it shows something might have gone wrong, then it is given to the relevant authorities so that proper action can be taken. The difference lies there, Gatsheni. That is why in respect of the matter under discussion no action was taken, unlike with other people in respect of past instances. [Applause.]]
Speaker en agb President ... [Speaker and hon President ...]
... I will change to English just now if the Speaker allows me.
Wag 'n bietjie. [Just wait for a moment.]
THE PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Just hold on. Your isiZulu is different from his, hon Groenewald. [Laughter.]
I didn't know that I would get so much reaction from the President. I am honoured. [Laughter.] Are you ready, hon President?
I am.
Agb President, ingevolge die Grondwet stel u die Kommissaris van Polisie aan. Net u kan die Kommissaris van Polisie ontslaan. U stel die Minister van Openbare Werke aan. Net u kan die Minister van Openbare Werke ontslaan. Ek wil vir u vra of, indien 'n verdere ondersoek dieselfde bevinding maak as die Openbare Beskermer - dat hierdie twee agb lede hulle skuldig gemaak het aan wanadministrasie en, na my mening, aan korrupsie - u hulle dan sal ontslaan? As u dit nie doen nie, dan maak u 'n klug van u eie woorde toe u ges het dat u korrupsie gaan uitroei. Dankie, agb President. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)
[Mr P J GROENEWALD: Hon President, in terms of the Constitution you appoint the Police Commissioner. Only you can dismiss the Police Commissioner. You appoint the Minister of Public Works. Only you can dismiss the Minister of Public Works. I want to ask you whether, if a further investigation makes the same finding as the Public Protector - that these two hon members are guilty of maladministration and, in my opinion, of corruption - you will then dismiss them? If you don't do this, you make a mockery of your own words when you said that you are going to eradicate corruption. Thank you, hon President.]
Speaker, I am sure that the hon member knows very well that he is just expressing wishes. He is just expressing what could happen if this happened. We are dealing with a matter here which is real. Firstly, I have indicated that the Public Protector has a procedure that requires the report to be presented, and the report must be looked at. On the basis of that, it is determined whether there is a case or not.
Now, your question is almost like asking a judge: Will you, at the end, convict this person if you find this person guilty? [Laughter.] Of course, the answer is yes, because once the case is presented, either you find a person guilty or not guilty. If a person is found guilty, there is one way to take action, and that is to convict. If he is not guilty, you don't. Even in - I just want to take the question further, because we need to be very clear - a court of law, the conviction is not the same. The judgment is not the same, even if a person is found guilty. At times, he is given a warning; at times, the judgment is very lenient, depending on the gravity of the crime committed. There is no doubt about it. [Interjections.] Of course, yes, it is part of the law. There is nothing outside of the law. [Interjections.]
Order, hon members, order!
So, I am just saying ... The issue, really, is academic because you know for a fact that once a person is found guilty, once that has happened, a decision must be taken, and one has to determine what type of action should be taken. There is no doubt about it. [Applause.]
Somlomo, ngiyabonga Mongameli, umbiko woMvikeli Womphakathi wethuliwe ezithebeni zakule Ndlu yesiShayamthetho. USomlomo wale Ndlu ube esewudlulisela emakomidini amabili, elamaphoyisa nelemisebenzi yabantu. Nawo-ke la makomidi abengakaqali ukuyibuka le ndaba.
Ngiyacabanga ukuthi kungaba wubuchule uma ngabe uMongameli ekuvuma lokhu engikushoyo ngokubona kwakhe ukuthi silinde, sibuke lesi Shayamthetho ukuthi sithini ngale ndaba? Angazi noma ngabe uMongameli uyibuka kanjalo, mina bengicabanga lokho. Ngiyabonga. [Ihlombe.]
UMONGAMELI WERIPHABHULIKHI: Ngiyabonga Somlomo, vele lungu elihloniphekile izinto zihanjiswa kanjalo. Njengoba nje le Ndlu yesiShayamthetho nayo iwamukelile umbiko, ngeke nje ivele ithi iwumukela ibe isikhipha isinqumo. Kufanele ukuba iqale iwubheke bese iwucubungule bese ithola amaqiniso kahle hle. Ithi-ke uma isiwatholile bese ithatha isinqumo ukuthi ifuna ukuthini.
Uma isivumelene ngale ndaba njengoba isisemakomidini nje, ibese ithi, iwubukile umbiko nakhu-ke ekutholile. Nabanye batsho ukuthi babona kufanele sibe njani isiphetho sale ndaba. Hawu! kanti nePhalamende lakho lisawuphethe lo mbiko? Bengithi ngingedwa. Kanti nani nisawuphethe? [Uhleko.] Nikhala ngani pho? Kwenziwa njalo lunga elihloniphekile ngivumela nawe kakhulu, siyavuma. (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)
[Mrs L S CHIKUNGA: Speaker - thank you, President - the report of the Public Protector was presented before this National Assembly. The Speaker of this House then sent it to the two committees, the one on Police and the other on Public Works. These committees have yet to look at the report.
I think it would be wise if the President agrees with what I propose; that we wait to hear what the National Assembly says about this matter. I don't know if the President's take on this matter is the same as mine. Thank you. [Applause.]
Thank you, Speaker. Indeed, hon member, that is how things are done. As this House, the National Assembly, has just received the report, it can't suddenly give its decision. It must first look at it, analyse it and get the facts. Thereafter it will decide what it wants to say.
After it has agreed on the matter now before the committees, it would then say it has looked at the report and what its findings are. And the others will then say what they see as the conclusion to the matter. I am surprised that your Parliament still has the report. I thought it was me only. Do you still have the report? [Laughter.] Why are you complaining about then? That is how it is done, hon member; I fully agree with you, we concur.]
Reasons for government's silence iro situation in Libya
3. Mr M G P Lekota (Cope) asked the President of the Republic:
Given the history of this country where people who were fighting for freedom were killed by an undemocratic regime, what are the reasons for his government's initial silence when the regime of Colonel M Gaddafi killed hundreds of people who were rising up against his regime? NO790E
Hon members and hon Speaker, South Africa does not operate in a vacuum on international matters. It operates within the ambit of the African Union, AU, and the UN.
We regarded the Libyan situation very seriously from the beginning, and the government has not been silent or inactive on this matter. We began engaging with other heads of state and governments on this matter when events started unfolding, as we were very concerned about the situation.
The South African government has also spoken out on various platforms on this matter. We called on all parties involved to exercise restraint in order to prevent further loss of life. We also called on the government and people of Libya to seek a speedy and peaceful resolution to the current crisis in accordance with the will of the people.
Furthermore, on 26 February 2011 at the UN Security Council, the South African government, through its permanent representative, Ambassador Baso Sangqu, condemned the loss of civilian lives in Libya. The Minister and Deputy Ministers of International Relations and Co-operation, as well as other government representatives, have also spoken out on the loss of life in various public platforms. We have also expressed our views directly to the Libyan leader, Colonel Muammar Gaddafi, regarding the unacceptable violence and loss of civilian lives.
The AU is seized with the matter and South Africa will work under the guidance and leadership of the AU. The AU has appointed a high-level panel consisting of Uganda, South Africa, Republic of Congo, Mauritania and Mali to attend to the matter. Given the urgency of the matter, the panel has begun its work already. Thank you, hon Speaker. [Applause.]
Speaker, Mr President, the history of our country is very mindful of the struggles for human rights and justice. We had a regime in this country which denied us political rights. As we fought in that struggle, the international community recognised the fact that it turned its weapons on our people for seeking those rights; consequently we were able to win support for apartheid to be classified as a crime against humanity.
We are faced with a situation in Libya today in which ordinary citizens struggle for their rights after 40 years of dictatorship, and Gaddafi's regime turns weapons on them. Are you, sir, and our government, prepared to lead our nation to mount a similar campaign against Gaddafi and his regime so that the world must condemn Gaddafi and his actions at the present time for committing a crime against humanity? Thank you.
Hon Speaker, the world has already started condemning Gaddafi. I don't think it would be inspired by us by marching in the streets to say Gaddafi must be condemned. I think it has done so, and we have done so as well. I think the world is in discussion as I speak, for the second time in the UN Security Council, about further measures to be taken.
You would either think that you need to mobilise people to march in the streets if there was nothing happening. In that way, you will be trying to call upon the people of the world to stand up and do something. We are already doing something together with the world, within the organisations that we belong to, namely the UN and the AU. The Arab League is also engaged in this situation.
And, certainly, we have said we don't agree. We are doing exactly what other countries did against apartheid. What we have not done is to march like anti-apartheid movements. We don't think that time has really come. We are doing all we can do, as a state now and within the organisations that are there, to ensure that we stop the killings in Libya. We are participating in a committee charged by the AU to lead the continent in resolving the situation on the ground. So, we are certainly doing everything we can. [Applause.]
Mr President, I guess the question is: What does one have to do when one discovers that one's her family friend is Jack the Ripper? [Interjections.] You are telling us that we are going with the world. However, there are widespread reports that the Butcher of Tripoli financed your personal defence when you were in trouble before the elections. There are widespread reports that he also financed the ANC.
What I do know is that, during your inauguration, he was received as the greatest hero. He had to be introduced twice because the first time around he was not introduced as the Leader of the Revolution and all your protocol people indulged in his madness of introducing him twice. Should we not rather lead than follow? [Interjections.]
Order, order! Order, hon members!
Should we not get ahead of the United Kingdom and France in asking for sanctions? Should we rather not send weapons to the rebels who are asking for them from the West? Isn't an African responsibility to promote democracy? Do we really want the rebels to be financed from outside Africa? [Interjections.] Let us lead rather than follow. [Time expired.] [Applause.]
Hon Speaker, I don't know where the fact that people cheered Gaddafi when he came to the inauguration comes in. He has been cheered wherever he goes. And the fact that, at some point, Gaddafi supported organisations and liberation organisations are matters of history. Indeed, he did so. Whether he supported a person or did not, is neither here nor there.
We are dealing with the situation in Libya where Gaddafi is shooting his people, and we are operating within the AU. Now, I don't understand how people would want South Africa to get out of the AU framework and do its own things because it is South Africa. Why would we want to prove some point? We want to be effective and we are operating within the AU and the UN, together with other organisations.
As to the rumours that you have, just talk to those who gave you rumours, they might help you. [Laughter.] Thank you, hon Speaker. [Applause.]
Hon Speaker and Mr President, firstly, the Arab League recently suggested that a no-fly zone be imposed on Libya. Would your government support that suggestion? Secondly, if Muammar Gaddafi was to be brought before the International Criminal Court for his violation of human rights in Libya, would you support such a move? Thank you.
Order, hon members, order!
Hon Speaker, the matter of whether there should be a boycott or closure of the Libya's airspace is under discussion at the UN Security Council. There are proposals that are being made. Yesterday there were too many resolutions. Today there is a consolidated resolution that is being made. People were asking very pertinent questions on that particular aspect. I don't think I want to prejudge what is happening in the UN. South Africa is represented and is participating in the discussions. It will certainly take a decision that will be in accordance with the beliefs of the South Africans. That is my response to the first part of your question on airspace.
With regard to the question on taking Gaddafi to the International Criminal Court, I don't think that we, as we are sitting here, could dream about it. I think if a person has been investigated, and it was indeed discovered that there were crimes committed, he or she must face the law in the international arena. We have never retreated on that issue. But we can't, again, conclude the matter before it is done. Nobody has established that. I know that there is a resolution that was taken. Resolutions are taken by people judging what happened.
But if we believe in the rule of law, we can't judge a person before even the establishment of the facts - whether indeed there are crimes committed warranting a person to be charged in the International Criminal Court; that has got to be determined. I don't think here in our Parliament we should then begin to determine those kinds of things. Once proper decisions are taken, we will certainly take the correct decision. [Applause.]
Speaker, hon President, firstly, has the South African government fully implemented the UN Security Council Resolution No 1970, which, amongst others, calls for a freeze of the funds and assets belonging to the specific Libyan individuals and entities named in that resolution? Secondly, President, what exactly did you say in your telephonic conversation with Colonel Gaddafi? Thank you. [Laughter.]
Hon Speaker, I have repeatedly said that on this continent we belong to an organisation called the AU. Matters are discussed in the AU and resolutions are taken there. It would be very strange if the AU took collective decisions and South Africa does its own thing. It would be very strange. We have to move with the AU so that we take a decision that this continent would agree to implement collectively. And that's what we have done, not what we think as an individual country. So, that has been the position and it is clear.
As to the telephonic discussion with Gaddafi, I indicated in my reply at the beginning that, as part of our intervention, I discussed matters with him and condemned the actions he was undertaking. I told him that it was wrong and he must stop doing it. From my point of view, this was done as a country. So, that's what we discussed and there was no secret about that.
However, of course, a telephonic conversation between two people is a matter between two people. [Applause.] But, for your just sake, I am telling you what we talked about. [Interjections.] We talked about the UN Security Council and why South Africa was part of those condemning his actions. And we said it correctly, because he was violating the rights of the people. We said it to him, not only through other organisations. That is just to help you because you are inquisitive. [Laughter.] [Applause.]
Outcome to be achieved at 17th Conference of Parties