Chairperson, we have recently introduced a management system that will assist us to record and capture information related to the use of consultants in our state departments. At the moment there is no instrument that we can use to capture that information. We have identified a need to do so.
This arrangement will assist us to know which departments are doing their business through the use of consultants and in which areas. This will avoid situations where departments use consultants for the work that they are able to achieve through the use of their own public servants. This is why we are doing that.
In some areas the use of consultants is unavoidable because of a lack of skills that you may not command. In other areas you may do without them. This system is built into our integrity management system to make sure that we have that information to be able to act when the need arises. Thank you.
Chairperson, I am shocked by the answer of the hon Minister, because, for a period of about 15 years, government departments have been using consultants costing millions of rands. I've asked the Minister how many departments are using consultants and how much is being spent on it, and he said, "I don't know. There is no system in place." Minister, I suggest that you get consultants to do that for you. [Laughter.]
I think that millions of rands are being wasted because Ministers who are appointed are supposed to have the skills and the capacity to do that work themselves. The moment they are appointed to higher positions with big cars and big salaries, the first thing they do is get people to do the work for them and pay them millions. [Interjections.]
Chairperson, I look forward to the day that hon Minister can ask an intelligent question. I want to summarise by saying ... [Interjections.]
Hon Chauke is not the Minister. [Laughter.]
Yes, and I don't think he will ever become a Minister, because he doesn't have the capacity. [Laughter.]
We need that information. The Minister must get it, because millions are being wasted. Yesterday, the Minister of Finance told us that we must start to curb spending. This is the place to start. Ministers have to do their work themselves and they shouldn't pay millions for other people to do their thinking and doing.
Chairperson, it is unfair for hon Van der Merwe deliberately to ignore that it is this government that has taken a step to manage this area of the use of consultants. The very handbook that the Minister of Finance tabled yesterday, as he was tabling the Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement, is a demonstration that we, as government, are determined to work on addressing these things.
I've indicated that we've built and introduced the system to deal with these issues so that we can capture information. It will be wrong to have a one-size-fits-all statement that says in all cases where consultants are used, it is not for genuine reasons. We have to indicate that we are doing all these things so that centrally we may be in a position to address that. It is fair for hon members to give credit where it is due.
We are dealing with these things. We are not saying that we will not give you the information that you need, but what we are saying is that at the time of raising a question like this, where we don't have a central management system, it may be very difficult to do that. When this system is introduced, at the press of a button, we will be able not only to provide answers, but also to manage and make sure that where a consultant is to be used, it would be for scarce skills that we don't command in our Public Service.
Chairperson, hon Minister, I usually address you in English, but I want to ask you this question in Afrikaans.
Agb Minister, die DA voel baie sterk daaroor dat die situasie wat die regering geskep het, as gevolg van kaderontplooiing, die ekonomie lank reeds baie benadeel. Hoogs gekwalifiseerde mense is vervang met mense wat nie oor die nodige vaardighede beskik nie. Die gevolg is dat konsultante van buite hulle werk moet doen en natuurlik skep dit 'n dubbele staatsdiens met dubbele salarisse. Twee mense moet nou vergoed word vir een pos. My vraag aan u is die volgende: Sou u saamstem dat spesifieke opleidingsprogramme nou die hoogste prioriteit moet geniet ten einde hierdie situasie te red? Baie dankie. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)
[The DA feels very strongly that the situation created by the government as a result of cadre deployment has been harming the economy for a long time already. Highly qualified people have been replaced by people who do not possess the required skills. The result is that consultants from outside must come and do their work, which of course creates a double public service with double salaries. Two people now have to be remunerated for one post. My question to you is the following: Would you agree that specific training programmes should now be receiving the highest priority in order to save this situation? Thank you.]
SWA VUKORHOKERI BYA VAAKI NA MAFAMBISELO: Mutshamaxitulu, hi kombisile kwala ndlwini leyi leswaku ku tirhiwa mitirho hi vanhu lavo huma ehandle, ku ta endliwa ntsena eka tindzhawu leti hi nga hava vatirhi lava kotaka ku tirha ntirho wa lowo. A hi nga ta swi tirhisa ntsena ntsena. Eka vuleteri, hi letela loko hi tiva leswaku hi lava mhaka yo karhi. Vanhu vo huma ehandle va tirhiseriwa xintirhwana xa nkarhinyana. U nge swi koti ku ya teka vuleteri hikwalaho ka xintirhwana xa nkarhinyana. Loko hi vulavula hi vutivi hi fanele hi tiva leswaku vutivi a hi vuli malembe yo tala u ri endzeni ka ntirho, kambe hi vula vuswikoti byo kota ku antswisa ku tirha ka mfumo. Inkomo. (Translation of Xitsonga paragraph follows.)
[The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Chairperson, we have indicated in this House that consultants will only be utilised in those areas where we do not have skilled personnel to perform such duties. We will not use they for the sake of using them. With regard to training, we do the training when we want to achieve a particular objective. Consultants are utilised for certain short-term jobs. You may not have to undergo training because of a short-term job. When we talk about knowledge, we have to take note of the fact that we do not mean the number of years of experience a person has in the job at hand, but rather the skills to improve the functioning of government. Thank you.]
Chairperson, my question to the Minister is based on wanting to know if there is a model or a strategy to capacitate government departments to reduce the state's dependency on outside consultants and also in order to help rebuild our developmental state. Thank you
Yes, it is there. Through the Public Administration Leadership and Management Academy, Palama, we capacitate public servants and departments and we train departments to be able to rise to the level of the challenges that are there in as far as the skills we need to be able to pursue our developmental agenda. Yes, we do that.
Minister, it has been reported that most senior managers have neglected their duties and wrongfully appointed consultants. What steps is the department going to take to make sure that we don't continue having those public servants milking the national fiscus wrongly and making sure that if it is as a result of a shortage of skills, then we appoint the relevant people who will be able to deliver accordingly? Thank you.
Chairperson, it is a sign of professionalism that when you have to intervene and address issues in a particular situation, you don't generalise and base that on rumours. If the hon member could provide us with information in terms of the allegations she is raising, we would be in a position to deal with that. The system we are building will be able to assist us on our own initiatives to follow up on the use of consultants so that there is value for money.
Strategies for co-ordinating and aligning needs of communities
210. Mrs D F Boshigo (ANC) asked the Minister for the Public Service and Administration:
What strategies are in place to co-ordinate and align the needs relayed by communities to the community development workers with local governments and relevant departments? NO2365E
Chairperson, individual community development workers, CDWs, write reports on the work they do in communities for submission to their supervisors who, in conjunction with community development worker peer managers, consolidate all received reports into an integrated report. The consolidated report is shared and circulated to stakeholders including local government and other departments for the purpose of sharing information and to follow up on matters emerging from communities that require attention.
At provincial level, various forums such as the intergovernmental relations, IGR, stakeholder forums have been established and are utilised as a platform to share views on the needs relayed by communities to CDWs. These stakeholder forums include provincial government departments. Thank you very much.
Chairperson, my question has been answered. Thank you.
Minister, I am back to speaking English to you. [Laughter.]
Despite the fact that training is provided and CDWs undergo an induction process, it became crystal clear during a recent oversight visit to some centres that CDWs are confused and frustrated. They do not know where they fit into the service delivery chain. They do not know to whom they are accountable and lack necessary resources like computer equipment. They also experience that other departments do not recognise them as colleagues. My question, hon Minister, is: What is being done to educate communities and departments around the benefits or the necessity of CDWs so that they are not seen mainly as party-political agents?
Chairperson, we and the Department of the Public Service and Administration and the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs run road shows, make departments conscious, address ward councillors and ward committees and talk to departments to encourage them to work with CDWs. In fact, the issue we might have to indicate is that CDWs are not confused or anything like that. The issue that is there is for them to ask how they can deal with the question of co-ordinated services and how they can deal with a situation where they, as foot soldiers of services delivery, have to make an impact in areas they go to. There are some challenges which we are actually managing. But these are not challenges that can make one say that CDWs have problems, are confused and so on. Thank you very much.
Chair, I think the Minister is in fact wrong. CDWs are confused. They do not know who they report to. The issue that is being raised is a valid one. In fact, I think it's time that government applied its mind to the value of CDWs and to whom they should report.
The first recommendation that was raised at the indaba last week and that received loud applause from the floor - from local government practitioners and not from members here - is that they should be abolished. The second recommendation, as an alternative, was that they should report to ward committees and not to provinces. Does the Minister have a view on that?
Chairperson, CDWs are not politicians but are what we refer to as special cadres of public servants. They are there and know that they report to structures in the local government. There is no doubt about that. You might have listened to one input, but we have been to all provinces in the programme of strengthening the role of CDWs.
We need to understand that in an environment where there are CDWs working in an area where there are also ward committees, they complement one another, clearly and perfectly so. We need to understand that in some instances it might well be that in your area, hon member, you might have a councillor who feels threatened or a CDW who does not feel welcome. But the general picture about the work of our CDWs is to provide mobile services to the people - door to door - which of course we are improving in terms of providing them with the necessary resources. That is what they are meant to do.
There may be minor challenges. But, like I have indicated, those are issues that we are addressing. In any situation where there is change, you are bound to go down and explain. That is exactly what we are doing to strengthen the programme of CDWs. Thank you very much.
Minister, the question arising from your response is that it seems to me that what CDWs are saying on the ground and the information you are getting are two entirely different things. In a recent oversight visit, every CDW we spoke to, including their co-ordinators, indicated the fact that they were not really recognised. One of them said that when they were employed they received one pencil and one writing pad and that was it.
I think there must be more co-ordination and more interaction between the department and local government in order to make sure that the reports they bring receive attention. They said that they were being discredited on the ground on the basis that they were not getting any feedback on what they have been taking to the Ministers or people up there.
People said to us that there was no basis for us to be asking them questions because they have been telling us things and there has been no response. Is there a commitment, Minister, that there is going to be an institutional arrangement to be put in place in order to ensure that these matters that are being raised by CDWs receive the necessary attention at the level that government requires? What action will be taken?
Chairperson, there is always room for improvement on things that one does, even in areas where one is doing very well.
Let me put on record that CDWs will be able to assist residents. CDWs can intervene and take a person who applied for a child support grant and has not been getting any joy in terms of receiving the service on time to the service provider to solve the problem. We have many reports of success stories. I have been in the Western Cape and the Eastern Cape personally. I am not sure which provinces we are talking about here. Maybe there are specific instances you are referring to.
We are going to have a national indaba on this issue of CDWs together with the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs. We would like to invite hon members who believe that CDWs are not recognised to come forward and raise these issues. Thank you very much.
Chairperson, on a point of order: The hon member Boshigo did not ask a follow-up question. Isn't there an opportunity for a fourth question? You have only allowed three follow-up questions.
Order! I know. She did stand up to say that she was answered sufficiently. So this was counted.
Was that counted?
Yes.
Plans by department to assist municipalities in recovering debt owed to them 219. Mr W P Doman (DA) asked the Minister for Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs:
Whether his department has any plans in place to assist municipalities in reducing the debt owed to them; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details? NO2375E
House Chairperson, we have established a team composed of the National Treasury, the Departments of Local Government in the Provinces, our department which is lead by ourselves, wherein we are looking at the whole question of debt that is owed to municipalities. We have employed a person who's dealing with that at the highest level in the department. The person responsible for this is developing a strategy that is looking at debt management and revenue enhancement.
We hope that by December the strategy will be in place and everything will be there. There are a lot of views that are there to say maybe we should be looking at a situation whereby the debt is sold to the private sector. Our view is that the debt must be taken by the national government so that we are able to ensure that we assist municipalities in dealing with it.
We will be profiling the debt to know who owes municipalities in terms of government, in terms of the private sector and also households. And once that has been done and looked at by Cabinet, we will be able to take that to you to ensure that we move forward.
I want to conclude by saying that we want to look at the issues of debt in two forms: firstly, to curb the growth of debts; and secondly, to ensure that we are able to reduce it. In conclusion, we want to have a situation whereby we say the systems must be the same, they must talk to each other. We are saying one country, one President, and one system. Thank you.
Chairperson, I really have appreciation for what the hon Minister and his department are doing in this regard. Under his leadership, I am sure that there won't only be talk and that there will be a difference in the future so that we can collect this R53 billion debt. But, in section 96 of the Local Government Municipal Systems Act, it says that municipalities must collect all money that is due. And the next one, section 97, says that such a policy to collect the debt must provide or can provide for the termination of services or the restriction of the provision of services when payments are in arrears.
On this point, hon Minister, I feel that you, yourself must set an example in this regard and come out on the side of municipalities that are seriously collecting arrears. I think that we need discipline. I know you stand for discipline and feel that you should come out and say that your are on the side of those municipalities that are applying the law, that are doing their duty. This is also in the performance contracts of the municipal managers and other people, and they collect the debt that you are on their side and not on the side of those people who are not paying. [Time expired.]
Chairperson, hon Doman, I'm on their side. However, this is a curveball; they must act within the law and within the Constitution, so that the rule of law is promoted. We are looking at this matter of incentivising good practice at municipal level, not only at the level of collection, but also at the level of payments in wards. This is because we believe that government and governance must happen at ward level, as it is the lowest level at which the system of governance is.
Now in that respect, we are looking at the possibility of having a situation where, if wards are paying well, we are able to ensure that they are incentivised and they get the money back, so that they are able to be involved in development projects. That's how we are looking at managing these things. Let's manage them in 3 985 wards in South Africa where work has to happen, rather than doing things in the way we have been this far. We want to do things differently as regards the way we conduct ourselves and we believe that, with your support, hon members, we will be able to reach agreement and achieve what has to be achieved. Thank you.
Chairperson, on a point of order: According to the Rules, cameras and cellphones are not allowed in Parliament. The members of the DA on the other side, hon Mazibuko and the gentleman in the yellow tie are taking photos with their cellphones. Thank you.
Hon members, the point of order is in order. Please don't take photos or use cellphones in the Chamber. Thank you.
Chairperson, this issue of municipal debt has been a crisis for donkey's years. We are up to R50 billion now, of which government owes R7 billion. So, I would suggest that we could start in government assisting municipalities by paying our own bills.
I want to remind the Minister, I'm sure he knows, that last month there was a court case in Gauteng and the High Court ruled against the Gauteng MEC, who had to pay R107 million in outstanding rates to the metro. The court heard that the province had failed to pay even though it had engaged in discussions with the debt credit section of the municipality. The judge said he would have no difficulty at all in having the MEC locked up for contempt of court if he didn't pay promptly.
Now, this is exactly the kind of problem we have. We have a debt collection crisis. Government doesn't pay its bills and MECs don't give a damn. We have to go to court to get the money out of government. What do you expect the ordinary citizen to do in this country? Why should people, ordinary people, pay their bills if government doesn't? So, the question I will put to the Minister is: When is government going to take a hard line on its own accounting officers, who are legally bound to pay the bills for which the departments owe money?
Chairperson, well it is quite interesting that you find that the ANC and the other side of the House are really ensuring that we narrow the gap in terms of seeing things. We are seeing things in a similar way, which I highly appreciate. It means people are actually beginning to learn the lesson of rising above petty party politics and are focusing on important issues. [Laughter.]
In that respect, we agree with hon Smith in saying that there is no need for people to spend money to pay lawyers for them to be able to recoup what belongs to them, which is owed by the departments. Now, we are looking at the debt, we will know by December this year, who owes whom, in relation to government and municipalities.
On the basis of that, it is clear that when government owes, they must pay, there's no compromise on that, it has to be done, because if we have to support municipalities, the first thing that you do is you support them financially, particularly on what belongs to them. Therefore, in that regard, hon Smith, once information is available and processed by Cabinet, you will be informed. We will also forward it to Parliament. Thank you.
Chairperson, I would like to know whether the Minister has already started talking to his colleagues in Public Works, to pay what is owed by government departments to municipalities, and to pay that on time and regularly, as the President mentioned recently. Thank you.
Chairperson, well, on the issues of the Department of Public Works playing its rightful role in ensuring that responsibilities are being executed in the payment, we can't say with confidence and conviction that we'll be able to ask the department to do so, because we ourselves don't even understand the extent of the departmental debt owed to municipalities.
Once that has been done, we will be able to interact with all government departments affected not only at national level, but also in provinces to ensure that, as part of section 154 of the Constitution that talks about supporting municipalities, what has been done in practice, has been done in word.
Therefore, in that respect, hon member, we will be able to take up the issues. We will be able to ensure that all those responsible play their part, because we believe that the support to municipalities is something that has to be done and has to be taken very seriously by all. Thank you. [Applause.]
Chairperson, at this level of the highest level Minister ... [Laughter.] ... the issue of debt collection, it is all right to talk about debt collection, but if we have municipalities who are underspending all the time if they have to collect more, are we not going to just increase the level of underspending because they are unable to spend the money they have, even if they are not able to collect? I think the problem is not only the collection of debts; it's the inability to manage funds by municipalities. Thank you.
Chairperson, hon Kganare, there are multifaceted reasons at times for municipalities not being able to spend, amongst them the availability of skills. People must be able to do the job and do it properly and be able to plan and ensure that they execute what they have to execute.
Therefore, what we want to do, of course, in collaboration with National Treasury, is to say that if municipalities don't spend, national government must go and assist; provinces must be able to go and assist in ensuring that the money is spent; and service delivery happens, because you find that more often than not these people who can't spent are in poor areas.
In municipalities that don't have the capacity to do the work, you can't punish the citizen, because of the fact that there is no capacity in municipalities. We must be able to assist in that respect. We are looking at different models of ensuring that the capacity in those smaller municipalities is there and is able to be taken up going forward.
On the issue of collection of debts, what belongs to municipalities must be able to be paid to them. The ability to spend is not an issue, irrespective of the side. The issue is that what belongs to municipalities must be able to be paid and that is what we are going to be doing, and that's what we are going to be following without fear, without favour and without prejudice. Thank you. [Applause.]
Visits to areas in which service-delivery protests have taken place
218. Mrs M Wenger (DA) asked the Minister for Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs:
(1) Whether he has visited the areas across the country, particularly in Mpumalanga, where protests related to service delivery have taken place; if not, what is the position in this regard; if so, what are the relevant details; (2) whether he has consulted the residents about their issues; if not, why not; if so, (a) what are the exact issues of the residents and (b) how will these issues be addressed?