Thank very much hon Chairperson, hon Minister; you have rightly said that climate change affects everyone, including our agricultural sector. One of the consequences of this is drought.
My constituency is in the western Free State, which has experienced one of the worst droughts in many years. This past weekend, one
farmer, a 58-year-old Mr Viljoen, committed suicide because of the state of his finances and the consequences of the drought in that area; it is believed. There are other farmers who are also emotionally not in a very good space. They go to the banks for loans and they get told that they can't be given any loans because of the uncertainty that the whole issue around section 25 has created. They currently in many places rely on private help. Charity and goodwill can only go so far.
Premier Ntombela was there just before the elections and consulted with them and made some undertakings but we haven't seen anything resulting from that.
So, what I would like to know, hon Minister, is that there is some help in other provinces that was given but in this specific area we haven't seen any help going to the farmers. Will you please make an undertaking to help them urgently in any way that you can and in what way would that be? Thank you very much.
The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, LAND REFORM AND RURAL DEVELOPMENT:
Thank you very much hon member, the question that you are asking is new. It links with another question that I am sure will come on the Order Paper relating to drought assistance. Maybe, one of the things
that we must appreciate as a country is that we are in an arid zone and therefore, the way in which we undertake our farming systems should factor that into our planning and operation. This is part of the work ... as I indicated earlier, working with my colleague, hon Barbara Creecy ... to look at how we can be climate smart with regards to our agriculture and also look at different adaption mechanisms.
We also are going to look at various options working with our Agricultural Research Council, ARC, and others to look at how we ensure that our agriculture takes into consideration the reality of climate change.
You would know that as a Department of Agriculture Land Reform and Rural Development both nationally and provincially, the function of disaster management lies with the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs. Various municipalities as well as provinces do have some limited assistance on disaster management. Nationally as well, there are particular procedures that have to be followed on the declaration of the disaster but there are other mechanisms in my view that we could look at into the future as to how we can ensure that we have insurance products for agriculture that would ameliorate the problems, as we do when we put aside money
for insurance for our cars and property so that on rainy days when we have challenges, we claim for them.
With respect to the specific matter of the western Free State that you have indicated, I hope that we will be able to talk to the MEC for Agriculture in the province to better understand what it is that they are doing and you can assist me with the name of the district which I can forward to my MEC so that she can visit and work with the farmers on how they can be assisted going forward. Thank you. [Applause.]
Thank you hon Chairperson, our country is in the midst of a massive drought and climate change is having a huge impact. How is it possible that the department has underspent with a R100 million on the budget for forestry and natural resources? This amount was budgeted for drought relief.
The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, LAND REFORM AND RURAL DEVELOPMENT: Hon
member, I may not be able to answer your question specifically because I am not even sure whether that allocation you are referring to was for drought relief and whether if it was for drought relief, it wasn't for farmers who are in the forestry industry. So, I would
have to investigate. I wouldn't be able to give you the answer in that regard. Thank you.
Thank you Chairperson, Minister, is there any integrated government strategy to mitigate the effect of natural disaster drought and storms to productive farming? If not, why? If so, what are the relevant details? Thank you, Chair.
The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, LAND REFORM AND RURAL DEVELOPMENT: Hon
Ndongeni, thank you very much. It goes back to the issue that I answered hon Mfayela on to say that we have been working on different approaches that we could put in place to respond to the climate issue in particular, which will cover issues of drought as well as the floods. I indicated that we are working with the Ministry of Environment, Forestry and Fisheries because as you know, in the past, each department would have particular interventions. The way in which the current administration seeks to work is in a co- ordinated way because the issue of drought as well as floods or any form of natural disasters doesn't only have a bearing on agriculture but runs across. There might be specific interventions on agriculture so as in other sectors but it is important that when we look at our adaptation strategy, we do it in an integrated form. Thank you very much.
Question 147:
The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, LAND REFORM AND RURAL DEVELOPMENT:
Chairperson, the question by hon Aucamp relates specifically on the matter of the Northern Cape. One cannot be able to quantify and indicate in the coming three years how much resources will be spent by government to deal with the issue of drought relief.
However, the department continues to provide the farming communities in the Northern Cape, those who are affected by drought, with risk reduction support including early warning information to mitigate the impacts of natural hazards and including drought.
We must also indicate that we have given drought assistance to the amount of R30 million as it was announced by the Deputy President and together with the province and the farming community agreed on the method in which such assistance will be given, particularly on issues of FODA for the animals.
So, in respect of that, one of the things we have done is to make available few farms and use those as foda banks so that we can produce foda, particularly in those areas closer to the Orange River where we can irrigate in order to assist farmers with the feat.
B, the question related to when will the Northern Cape be declared a disaster area? Again, this is a matter that is the competence of the Department Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, CoGTA. What we have done as the national department working with the province have been to give the necessary information on the assessment that we have done particularly in the five districts that have been affected by drought. And we have given that information to the relevant department and we are hopeful that sooner we will get an indication of whether or not the province, particularly the five districts, will be declared as disaster. Thank you very much, hon member.
Hon Minister, with all due respect, the R30 million that was provided to the farmers in the Northern Cape is the small portion of the R640 million that your department said is required. Your department is like an ambulance arriving at the accident scene seven days after the accident occurred. It is too late, it's too little. My question to you, hon Minister, is: Since your government has taken too long to react to this drought, breading herds in ... not only the Northern Cape but several other provinces, breading herds have been depleted. Those are herds that it has taken a long time to build up those herds. Due to this drought, those herds have now been depleted, grazing has been trampled to such an extend that
it will take much longer than in the past for those grazing to recover. What I'm asking is, we are all aware of the effects that global climate change have and that we are a water scarce country, what will your department do to ensure in future you have a faster response time to disasters such as this drought and other disasters in order to mitigate them for our farmers? Our farmers - who by the way - are the foundation of food security in this country. Thank you, Minister.
The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, LAND REFORM AND RURAL DEVELOPMENT: Hon
Aucamp, I must say that I applaud and appreciate hon Groenewald who is in the NA; his attitude in addressing this matter was very positive. He actually appreciated that government doesn't have all the resources to assist in this regard. He invited the Deputy President and myself, visited the Northern Cape, met with the farmers, indicated to the farmers what government was doing and the commitment that government was going to put.
You are correct, the analysis of the Department of Agriculture, Land Reform and Rural Development in terms of what would be required to mitigate the problems that the farmers in the five districts are facing, was indeed R500 million. But what we could give from the Department of Agriculture, Land Reform and Rural Development not
disaster management, which is the function of CoGTA, was
R30 million, which had actually been made upfront. And farmers, contrary to the way in which you are responding, were very positive; and they appreciated, they even advised us what would be the better mechanism to deliver foda utilising that resource.
Farmers in the Northern Cape themselves, offered to government that they would work with small holder farmers if government were to provide land where they can plant foda that would continuously assist.
So, the attitude of farmers on the ground is very different than the way in which you are portraying government's intervention. They actually appreciated it.
If government was like an ambulance that comes later, surely that R30 million would not have been expanded. And remember that this is the sixth year in the Northern Cape that they have been experiencing drought. From year one the government has been giving resources to assist in the Northern Cape.
You can shake your head, good. It may not be enough but remember what I said, going forward, firstly, we need to ensure that in terms
of the strategies to respond to the drought, region in which we belong as the country would require different farming system that we must employ. Secondly, farmers, themselves, must provide to actually mitigate when there are challenges like any of you and me included to do in terms of your car insurance and other insurances. And that is the issue that also our financial institutions must be alive to that financial services including insurance for agriculture should actually be considered not as an incidental issue but as a norm.
And I think we must appreciate what currently the government has been doing and it's important to remember that as opposed to the past, you've got many farmers that this government must support. You've also got many other areas of need which this government must respond to.
I mean some of the earlier questions that have been asked in this House does indicate the many needs of resources from government that must be expanded to. So, I don't really think, at times when we deal with issues like this, we must take the posture that we do because we are dealing with a natural disaster that has really hurt ... serious negatives, consequences, some of the farmers have taken their own lives because they couldn't cope. So, I don't think it
could be a matter of politicking in the manner in which we deal with it. And we must be appreciative of what is being done.
Hon Aucamp, thank you very much. [Applause.]
Hon Minister, as you just said that there is not enough funds available. But then, your government is bailing out state-owned entities, SOEs, such as Eskom, SA Express and the SA Broadcasting Corporation, SABC, from the contingency reserve fund, which is there available for unforeseen circumstances. Now, these SOEs are in the position that they are because of mismanagement. Why are we not spending this on the farmers and making sure that we support them because that is not their own making?
Your government claims that we need these SOEs to remain afloat. Let me tell you something, Minister, we also need our farmers. Why has no money been allocated to farmers from the contingency reserve? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, LAND REFORM AND RURAL DEVELOPMENT:
Thank you, hon member. And I'm sure this government is your government too. You may not be in the ruling party, but once a government is elected is a government for all of us.
And I don't think, seated here, the comparisons that are being made are actually justifiable. And it is not true to say government is not looking at supporting the farmers, because it does. [Interjections.] Well I appreciate it not enough and I said so myself, and government will never have enough when there are fewer tax payers than the needs of the country. Those are the balances we have to make. And I'm sure CoGTA, when it approaches the Ministry of Finance on these matters of drought; surely it will look at whatever resources that are there to support.
The R30 million intervention was to immediately respond while all other processes are undertaken. It doesn't mean that's the end and be all. And I think it's important for us to really appreciate what is being done; and I would again repeat, farmers of this country are producers that we all need. And in all their permutations none of us own them, but collectively, these are the producers of this of this country who ensures our household for security, who ensures our national food security, who ensures that they can contribute to the economy through trade.
So, as the Minister of Agriculture, Land Reform and Rural Development, that is why I took my time to go to Namaqualand, that is why I've been to various areas of our country where farmers are
to engage with them, that is why I've been to farmers meetings to explore what it is that we need to do to deal with the matters that affect farmers, small, big and medium; because all of those, they may be smaller at one hectare, they produce for their families so that they cannot be hungry.
And I think the way in which we need to look at how we approach that constituency; we shouldn't make it sectarian as though it's a them and us who care about them fully. Thank you. [Applause.]
Afrikaans:
Op 'n punt van orde. [Onhoorbaar.] ... was voor die lid se hand op. Daar was net ... [Tussenwerpsels.] Voorsitter, u kan vir die Tafel vra. Vra vir die Tafelpersoneel daar. My hand was voor almal se hande op.
English:
Please sit, hon member.
Afrikaans:
Wat is die rede hoekom u my ondermyn? My hand was voor sy hand op en voor die ander se hande.
English:
Please sit. It's not a point of order. And I think there's something you are missing as well.
Afrikaans:
Dit is 'n punt van orde, Voorsitter. Dit is onregverdig.
English:
You were noted but you are not the person to speak now.
[Inaudible.] ... not noted. It's unfair, Chairperson.
Chairperson, the member of the EFF rose on a point of order and you keep on ignoring his point. We've made certain observations, even previously, that when you are sitting on that chair and presiding over this House, you tend to ignore all four corners of this House and it's extremely unfair. The member of the EFF raised the hand before the member of the DA. So, we don't know what criteria are you using. If we raise first why can't you recognise us?
In fact, I can correct you, hon member by simply stating the following: that the hands that short up on my left, right at the back there, were not two but three, hon member. The member there and the two who are now standing.
Please sit, hon member.
Hon Minister, my question is: What has been the audit outcomes of the funds distributed for drought relief over the last three financial years? And what risk mitigation measures are there to ensure that funds are not directed to purposes they are not intended for?
The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, LAND REFORM AND RURAL DEVELOPMENT: Hon
member, that's a new question. It is a new question, hon member, I appreciate it. If you don't mind you can't put it on a written form and I will look at the audit outcomes and give you the necessary response that you want. Thank you.
Minister, can you make use of the translation services? I'm going to ask in Afrikaans.
Afrikaans:
Minister, ek dink dat u met die EVV sal saamstem dat die aangehoue droogte situasie wat ons in die land het, het 'n langtermyn strategie nodig om basies met die droogte te handel. Ons weet natuurlik dat die droogte 'n negatiewe impak op produksie, op die ekonomie en dan ook op werkskepping het. Onlangs het die Departement van Waterwese juis 'n verslag uitgebring en ondersoek ingestel, en gevind dat in 12 maande se tyd is daar 'n afname in ons damme van omtrent 10% van water wat verdywn, en dit benodig 'n omdraaistrategie.
My vraag aan u is soos volg. Is u as die Minister, in samewerking met die Minister van Waterwese, in interaksie met mekaar om seker te maak dat daar proaktiewe maatrels in plek is om seker te maak dat ons op die langtermyn nie opeindig soos wat ons amper hier in Kaapstad en in die Weskaap opgeindig het nie; waar daar 'n droogtetyd was en waar daar ges was ... day zero. Dat ons nie so 'n dag het nie. Is u en die Minister in interaksie om seker te maak dat daardie plan uitgevoer word? Baie, baie dankie.
English:
The MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, LAND REFORM AND RURAL DEVELOPMENT:
Thank you hon member Arnold. You know it's a new question but I will answer it. [Laughter.] [Interjections.] Yes. You have put it through
the window. But indeed, the Minister of Human Settlements, Water and Sanitation is working together with myself and other Minister on that water master plan, which seeks to look at the situation currently that we have as a country but also in the long term in the future and what strategies need to be developed. That would also require particular irrigation systems that as the agricultural sector must put in place. It would also ensure that we can look at drought resistant crops in certain instances. So, we are working together. As you that apart from water from our own resources in the country, we also get water from our neighbouring countries such as Lesotho. So, it's important how we work on conservation of water strategies to prepare for the future. So, indeed, we are working together. Thank you very much.
Question 163:
The MINISTER OF ENVIRONMENT, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES: Thank you very
much, hon Chair and hon members, the overall spent on procurement to black- owned companies by the department is 74% and amounts to approximately R415 million, 29% is spent on women and youth-owned companies and it amounts to R121 million. The department has also initiated workshops with small enterprises on a by-annual basis that specifically target, black, women and youth with the object of
encouraging the registration as prospective suppliers and service providers to the department.
From a job creation perspective the department has implemented a number of empowerment initiatives that support women and youth from previously disadvantaged communities. The recycling support programme which awards grants to waste management and recycling, small, medium and micro- enterprises, smmes, primarily owned by youth and women has generated the following spend over the period of R400 million or 14% going to women -owned enterprise, 11% or R3,4 million going to youth-owned enterprises.
Further, the recycling enterprise support programme is supported through an Expanded Public Works Programmes, EPWP, and has created a total of 28 000 Public Works opportunities, of this 14 000 or 52% go to women and 20 000 or 70% of the opportunities go to youth. The department continues to expand the EPWP to ensure the designated groups and that will include women, youth and people with disabilities are prioritised. As part of the biodiversity economy programme a total of 540 youth are receiving accredited training in game meat processing through a partnership between the department and Shoprite checkers and through the environment learnership programme, the department recruits 100 youth every year from
universities. These students are then placed and work-integrated learning and they are also allocated mentors and coaches who make sure that the year is fruitful and supportive of them. Thank you very much.
Hon Chair, thank you very much Minister for your detailed answer. Minister, as we know that Environmental Affairs, Forestry and Fisheries sector is one of the most untransformed sectors. What progress has the department made in terms of ensuring that these historical legacies are transformed and further ensure the benefits derived in these sectors are enjoyed by all? Thank you so much, Chair.
The MINISTER OF ENVIRONMENT, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES: I think it's a
new question, but I can answer you, hon member. In fisheries, we are currently in the process of allocating 15-year fishing rights to 10 000 small fisher persons who are organised in co-operative societies along all of our coastal communities. I began the programme two weeks ago in the Ugu District in KwaZulu-Natal. In the month of November, we will be dealing with fishing rights of small communities in the Eastern Cape and we hope, in December to be addressing the same issues in the Western Cape. Obviously, many of
these small fisher persons are women and they would also be young people who would be involved in these programmes.
With regard to forestry, this is an area that we are currently working on. We believe that there are opportunities to hand out land to historically disadvantaged communities in the forestry sector. We also see that there are opportunities to have partnerships with the major forestry companies that would further beneficiate women, youth and other people from historically disadvantaged communities. Thank you.
Xitsonga:
Ndza khensa, Mutshamaxitulu. Holobye, hi ku ya hi nhlamulo ya n'wina ndzi twa yi nga khumbi helo ku hlohletela vamanana na vantshwa va le makaya. Ndzi lava ku tiva leswaku eka ndzawulo ya n'wina, xana hi tihi ti phurogireme leti mi ti endlaka ku hlohletela vamanana na vantshwa lava kumekaka emakaya leswaku va kota ku teka xiave eka phurogireme leyi. Ndza khensa.
The MINISTER OF ENVIRONMENT, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES: Thank you very
much, hon member for the question. Most of the programmes that we have under working for water and working on fire are programmes that specifically target women and youth. Again, they are poverty
alleviation initiatives, but they are also programmes in those rural areas that would include the recycling initiatives that I spoke about earlier, as well as other initiatives to these initiatives that I was speaking about in the forestry sector will primarily be targeted at women, youth and other people from historically disadvantaged communities in rural areas.
Thank you, Chair. Hon Minister, why is it wonderful that these many women and youth as you described to us benefited from procurement in your department and that you intend to increase participation for these groups? Your department is struggling to solve procurement irregularities at the moment. One of the most recent investigations was launched by the Public Service Commission appointing a high profile investigating team to look into allegations of tender fraud and factional wars in their department. What steps are your department taking to eliminate procurement irregularities and can you guarantee this House that the opportunities created for women and youth are not, in fact, hampered by corruption?
The MINISTER OF ENVIRONMENT, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES: Thank you very
much, hon member. In fact, when we presented our audit outcomes before the portfolio committee in the National Assembly I have made
an undertaken that all irregular expenditure will be investigated by Independent Forensic Auditors, and I have already issued instructions to all of the branches and also to all of our entities that need to take place. There can be absolutely no space in our department for those who would want to prevent anyone but in particular people from historically disadvantaged communities from not benefitting from the opportunities that are available. Corruption is not a victimless crime; corruption is a crime that affects those who live under conditions of poverty the most.
Thank you very much, hon Minister. I am now in a difficulty I have a note for me that says the next speaker is supposed to be hon Mthethwa and Mthethwa is not in the House. So now, I must look for his look alike. Hon Mfayela is it you? Do you want to speak? Mthethwa is not in the House.
Question 142:
The MINISTER OF ENVIRONMENT, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES: Thank you very
much, hon member. Yes, the department has plans to combat abalone poaching. These interventions are planned and implemented as part of the enhanced co- ordinated compliance and enforcement programme of initiative 5 of Operation Phakisa.
Integrated teams at national and provincial levels, as well as local law enforcement, are deployed under the National Joint Operational and Intelligence Structure, Natjoints, to combat abalone poaching which is a threat in a number of coastal regions, particularly in the Western Cape.
During Phakisa initiative 5 operations in 2018-19, confiscations were made of abalone worth R21,3 million, as well as equipment worth more than five million used in illegal activities. In the fist six months of the current financial year, confiscations of abalone and equipment associated with poaching and trafficking were made to the value of R3,6 million.
The most recent deployment of the integrated Phakisa teams is to the Overberg region which began towards the end of September. As a result of these interventions, there has been a noticeable reduction in illegal harvesting activities. A number of arrests have been made, as well as confiscations of vehicles, equipment, vessels and abalone. Deployment in this area will continue in line with the proactive and reactive strategies set out in the operational plan.
With regard to Question 2, the implementation of plans aimed at combating poaching remain structured under the enhanced and co-
ordinated compliance and enforcement programme, as I explained earlier, which is an initiative of Operation Phakisa under the Natjoints.
As initiative 5 focuses on joint operations in the maritime environment with multiple role-players with different jurisdictions, the Natjoints is used to execute proactive and reactive operations, thereby acting as a force multiplier for the department's own resources. [Applause.]
Thank you very much, Minister. I think you are well aware of the fact that when initiative 5 and Natjoints operations become effective in one area, crime moves on to another area. Therefore, I just want to say - and I think you know this - that research indicated that illegal abalone trade is 4,5 times more than rhino horn trade and 3,2 times more than ivory trade. An average of 2 174 tons per year over the past 17 years with an average value of R628 million a year is being poached. These devastating figures can be attributed to ongoing organised crime.
Minister, will you as the lead department or agency please undertake and support the following in our effort to address this absolute maritime crisis? Firstly, to pursue in Cabinet that abalone poaching
be recognised as a priority crime as well as categorised as an organised crime to ensure maximum sentences;
Secondly, to advocate that abalone is classified as a protected species under the National Environmental Management: Biodiversity Act of 2004; and
Thirdly, include abalone under the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Fauna and Flora, Cites.
We as parliamentarians will do our due to contribute to the amending of these Acts if we have your support.
The MINISTER OF ENVIRONMENT, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES: Thank you very
much, hon Labuschagne. Together with the national department of safety, we have developed a wildlife crime strategy. That strategy has not yet been brought before Cabinet. I had a meeting with Minister Bheki Cele about two weeks ago to request him - because his department is responsible - to bring that particular memorandum before Cabinet, because in that memorandum one of the species that would be identified as a priority crime species would be abalone. You would know that at the moment rhino poaching is identified as a priority crime.
I think that one of the things that we are going to be doing is to set up a special team of experts to look at the whole issue of the abalone fishery. You would understand that if we make it a protected species and if we put it under Cites it de facto will close the fishery.
I think one of the things we've always got to think about is that if you don't find legal ways for people to engage in the harvesting of abalone they might then find illegal ways of doing that, which as we know, they have already done.
Part of the reason for putting up that task team is so that they can give me overall advice as to how we are going to deal with the impact that illegal harvesting has had on the fish stocks and what measures we should be taking to ensure that there is a recovery of those fish stocks.
... [Inaudible.] ... Chairperson. Hon Minister, coming from the Western Cape - also not from the DA - and also from the Overberg region where abalone poaching has become such a thing where people only look at the high level of poaching; however, in these communities small fishermen who don't have another source of income are also doing it to put food on the table.
Now, the small-scale fishermen ... I fully agree with the high level plans of the department. However, the small-scale fishermen that don't have anything to put on the table ... I think ... Minister, if you can maybe just tell us how the small-scale policy ... the implementation of the small- scale policy in the industry, will also assist the small-scale fishermen whose eyes were also on poaching. How will that assist the department to, on a low level, scale down abalone poaching? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF ENVIRONMENT, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES: Through you,
hon Chairperson, I think that is a very important question. I explained to the hon member in a previous question that we are in the process of starting to give out 15-year rights to small-scale fisherpersons. I think what we need to understand is that these small-scale fishing people have never had legitimate legal rights and the consequence of that is that when people can't get through the front door they are going to climb through the windows. I think that many activities which are regarded as so-called poaching can be the activities of individuals who legitimately need to feed their families and who legitimately need to be creating a livelihood for themselves. That is why over the last four months we have prioritised the sorting out of the issue of rights for small-scale
fishing people. Unless we do that, we will never solve the problem of so- called poaching in Western Cape communities.
There is a basket of species that we are putting on the table for small- scale fishing people. It includes finfish, oysters, mussels, octopus, prawns, limpets, abalone and lobster, and I think the intention is to try and give individuals a legitimate way of feeding their families. However, we are also organising these small fishing communities into co-operatives and the idea is that, through their involvement in these co-operatives, they should also be able to create a commercial livelihood for people who are members of the co- operative. Until we do that, we are never going to get a proper handle on this thing called poaching.
Thank you, Chair. Minister, I want to know if you can perhaps tell us how many officials or inspectors are being investigated or have been arrested as a result of these investigations that you have lodged ... that might have failed to act in the prevention of abalone poaching or might have been complicit in these illegal activities.
The MINISTER OF ENVIRONMENT, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES: Thank you, hon
member. I don't think it's a secret that the branch of Fisheries
that we are inheriting as the Department of Environment has not been a well- run branch. There are several officials who are facing disciplinary charges for a range of, can I call them, illicit activities. Some of those officials are currently in disciplinary proceedings.
Where it comes to light that other officials that are supposed to be monitoring and acting as referees have in fact become players for the other team, we will take action just as we have taken action against those whom we currently have evidence against.
Sepedi:
Modulasetulo, ke re go Tona ...
English:
... the problem of poaching must be tackled systematically where there are multinational criminals illegally exploiting our marine resources. There are also South Africans from fishing communities across the country that have been denied opportunities to make a living from marine resources. What plans do you have in place to ensure that the exploitation of our marine resources is being done in a manner that is inclusive of communities that have been deprived of fishing for generations?
The MINISTER OF ENVIRONMENT, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES: Thank you very
much, hon member. I think, first of all, you are absolutely right. One needs to make a distinction between those aspects of poaching that involve syndicated crime ... We know that, with regard to abalone poaching, there is definitely involvement of gangs and of syndicated crime, and there are definite reports that abalone poaching is linked to the narcotics trade.
We would also agree with you, and I think this relates to the answer that I gave to hon Maurencia, that part of the reason why you have so-called poaching is because, for generations, people who live in coastal communities have been denied their legitimate right to harvest food and commercial value from the sea. That is precisely why, over the last four months, we have prioritised the giving of rights to 10 000 small fisherpersons.
As I've already explained, the process in KwaZulu-Natal, the Northern Cape and the Eastern Cape is well underway. In the Western Cape I have visited fishing communities throughout the province and one of the issues that they have brought to my attention is that they do not feel that the process of registering them has been fair and transparent because the percentage of people who failed to be registered is considerably higher than those who succeeded in being
registered. As a result of that we have put in an independent audit so that we can make sure that where people have been excluded from the registration process, there are good reasons and that it isn't being done for nepotistic reasons.
However, it is our intention that those in the Western Cape who have already qualified should be given their rights in December, because what we understand is that the fishing season for these fishing people is a summer season and we would not want to delay the opportunity for them to fish in the current summer season.
Question 164:
The MINISTER OF ENVIRONMENT, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES: Chairperson,
the support to local government for waste management matters aims to respond to the following problems: one, the lack of infrastructure and equipment; two, large service backlogs; three, inadequate planning for waste services; four, poor integration of industry waste management plans in the IDPs of municipalities; five, the profile of waste management is lower than the provision of other basic services; six, bylaws are not developed; and seven, there is an absence of appropriate and audited data.
Intergovernmental structures have been set up to ensure that co- operative governance mechanisms are implemented, to support local government, in order to improve waste management for the sustainable use of resources. These intergovernmental structures cover national, provincial, local and district level and give direct support to local government, where we have placed officials in all 44 district municipalities, to support both the district and the local municipalities.
In addition to that, we have undertaken the following interventions. Firstly, we are in the process of amending the MIG policy framework and these amendments should be tabled by March 2020. This will allow a situation where money that is allocated for the MIG is also used for the provision of waste services and not just for the provision of landfills and other infrastructure.
Secondly, we are assisting municipalities to develop and review their integrated waste management plans. We are providing annual capacity- building to municipal officials and councillors on various waste topics, depending on the training needs of each municipality.
Thirdly, we have also developed model waste bylaws so that municipalities can take those model bylaws and amend them for their
own situations. We are helping them to implement the Good Green Deeds programme, which was launched by President Ramaphosa in March and the idea of the Good Green Deeds Programme is, where we have huge build-ups and backlogs in waste collection, to conduct regular clean-up campaigns.
Furthermore, municipalities have also been assisted with the licensing of 328 unlicensed landfill sites, to develop a framework for compliance, and lastly, we have developed standard designs for material recovery facilities. The idea of these material recovery facilities is that these would be the buy-back centres where we would be encouraging members of the community to bring things like glass, plastic paper, and so on. Thank you.
Minister, inadequate waste services led to unpleasant living conditions and contamination of the environment. What processes are in place to address the historical backlog of waste services between urban areas and rural areas? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF ENVIRONMENT, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES: Hon member, I
think this is a very important question. What we know in our country is that, at the moment, only 65% of households have regular weekly collection of their waste. If you look at where the 35% where there
is not regular collection of waste, almost 100% of that is in rural areas. And areas such as the Eastern Cape, the far northern parts of KwaZulu- Natal, in particular, have a very extreme situation with regard to no-waste collection.
However, from the kind of work that we are doing to support municipalities, you would see, another problem is that communities have to dispose of their own waste, but there are not necessarily any licensed areas that can receive that waste. The consequence of that is the widespread dumping.
The reason that we are working with local government on amending the MIG policy is because in many instances, municipalities do not have the budget to effect regular waste services. While services such as electricity and water are subsidised through the free basic service mechanism, there is no mechanism currently to subsidise waste collection. We are working on this particular amendment because we think that it will assist municipalities that are in distress.
However, you would understand that this is an extremely complicated process, because it relates to the weaknesses of municipalities, it relates the lack of revenue streams of those municipalities and it also relates to the lack of infrastructure.
It is why we are also looking at establishing buy-back centres for waste, so that we put a monetary value to waste. If people can start to see various waste streams as income streams and revenue streams, there might be a greater willingness to return those particular waste streams that are causing major problems in the environment. They can return plastic to the buy-back centres, so that we can divert it from other landfills or environmental degradation. Thank you.
Chairperson, Minister, you have touched on the monetary value of waste and I would like to say that the current narrow approach to cost-effectiveness in waste management focuses on the monetary values of the service. However, we might need a broader approach. Considering the South African socioeconomic challenge, equity policy, the Bill of Rights, environmental costs - as you have referred to in a way - which result in significant costs and a huge impact on waste management that are not accounted for in the current financial accounting systems in most municipalities, has the department ever performed a full cost-accounting exercise for waste management and if so, what was the outcome of such a study and what would be the implications for municipal waste management, and if not, do you think it would be worthwhile to do so?
The MINISTER OF ENVIRONMENT, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES: Hon member, I
am sure you agree that it is a new question. If you give it to me in writing, I will find out for you. Where we agree with you, however, is that if, as I was saying to the previous hon member, we are serious about introducing this concept of the circular economy where every product, when it has fulfilled it current life, is the raw material for another product, instead of it being a product that is discarded, we have to introduce that concept properly and think about how we minimise waste on the one side, but on the other, we have to think about the issue of the extended producer responsibility.
So, when we look at issues such as plastic bags and tires, both of those commodities have a tax on them, which is paid by the consumer. The idea of that tax is that that tax money must be used for the life cycle of that particular product.
We can debate here whether that has been effectively done, but in my view that is really where we have to go with waste. I don't think that we have enough space in our country for landfills with our growing population and all of the waste it will produce. We have to, on a much more serious basis, start to address the question of the circular economy and reuse of commodities. Thank you.
Chairperson, hon Minister, thank you very much for your responses, especially when you are dealing with the challenges that are facing municipalities around financing waste management as well as the technology thereof. One of the biggest problems is the lack of public awareness on the part of the communities, especially around the issues of sanitary improvements. Does the department have a plan with working with municipalities to attend to that particular area of public awareness? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF ENVIRONMENT, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES: That is a
really important question, hon member. You would be aware that over many, many years, there have been a lot of public awareness campaigns around littering. The question that we have to ask is: Why have they not changed behaviour? One of the issues that we are currently researching as a department is whether we can do a baseline study on citizen understanding of environmental question and one of those questions would obviously be the issue of why it is that you should not through waste into the environment. We want to do that because we don't think that it is productive to spend more money on so-called citizen awareness campaigns, unless we understand how we will measure the success - against what will we measure the success of those particular campaigns.
So, we have a lot of outreach programmes that are working in schools. We have the Good Green Deeds. We do community awareness, but immediately after you leave that community, people go back to disposing of waste in ways that we would not prefer.
So, we want to do the baseline study. Let us also look at how to disaggregate your public when we do the public-awareness campaigns, because the public is not just one amorphous mass. The reasons that people litter is not the same, particularly given the fact that you could have people that think that it is wrong to throw their rubbish on the side of the road, but they don't have an alternative.
So, if we are going to raise citizen awareness about where you should not through your rubbish, you also have to be in a position to tell them where they can throw it. From the work that we have been doing, I don't think we can answer that question in all municipalities. Thank you.
Afrikaans:
Minister, ons weet dat ons Grondwet, wanneer dit by die opgewing kom, die versekering aan ons burgers gee dat hulle, volgens afdeling 24 van die Grondwet en die seksie wat oor die omgewing handel, afdeling 2, die reg het tot 'n opgewing wat nie
skadelik is vir hul gesondheid nie. U het nou oor die departement se betrokkeheid by plaaslike regering se gentegreerde afvalbestuurplan gepraat. My vraag aan u is: Daar is baie stortingsterreine wat naby informele nedersettings is, wat 'n negatiewe impak op die gemeenskap en veral die kinders het, wat is die Minister van plan om daaraan te doen? Ons weet dat afvalbestuur die plaaslike regering se mandaat is, maar wat is die Minister van plan om te doen in terme van dit, aangesien u ook ondersteuning daar bied? Dankie.
The MINISTER OF ENVIRONMENT, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES: Hon member, I
have explained that there are at least seven or eight different ways in which we support municipalities. However, if you are talking about how one must make sure that you remove the refuse that is on the outskirts of informal settlements, which I think is the fundamental objective that we want to achieve, there would be two things that we are doing.
In terms of solving the long-term problem, what I explained is that we are trying to amend the regulatory environment around the MIG so that municipalities can utilise the grant for the purchasing of refuse trucks and for the actual process of waste collection. So, that is the long-term solution that we are trying to effect.
In terms of solving the short-term problem, it is exactly those kinds of dumpsites that we would be targeting with our Good Green Deeds programme, so that we make sure that, on an ad hoc basis, we are cleaning up and removing that refuse, while we are implementing the longer-term programme. Thank you.
Hon Minister, before we continue, let me remind members that you only have two minutes for a follow-up question.
Question 145:
The MINISTER OF ENVIRONMENT, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES: Hon member,
prior to this declaration of intent being signed there was no specific co- operation on environmental issues with the Kingdom of Denmark. Both parties agreed that it would be beneficial to formalise our co-operation on environmental issues given the global environmental challenges being faced currently.
The Declaration of Intent is nonbinding ant its primary objective is to provide an overarching framework for co-operation between South Africa and the Kingdom of Denmark on the following areas: The circular economy and industrial symbiosis, environmental monitoring,
compliance and enforcement, sustainable consumption and cleaner production, greening of the economy and climate change adaptation.
Furthermore, the declaration creates the opportunities for South Africa and Danish stakeholders both public and private to foster partnerships particularly in the field of the green transition sustainable development and climate change adaptation. It also creates an enabling environment to stimulate mutually beneficial exchanges of information, best practice and lessons learnt as well as joint projects and initiatives.
Furthermore, the declaration will also create an opportunity for organising technical training seminars, study groups and so on.
South Africa has already joined the Partnering for Green Growth, P4G, and the global goals 2030 initiative as part of our collaboration as part of our collaboration with the Danish government.
The P4G programme aims at addressing and advancing innovative solutions both with start up and scale up funding support options within the thematic areas inclusive of cities renewable energy,
water, food and agriculture and other areas that would be aligned to government's programme of action.
The next phase of our discussions will focus on developing and implementing the plan for the Declaration of Intent which will identify more specific areas collaboration.
Hon Deputy Chairperson and hon Minister, thank you very much for the comprehensive answer. I would like to know as you have mentioned that there would be a start up funding on green energy and projects as one of the things and it is obvious then that signing this intent that any financial assistance or co-operation will be contingent on us using it to either mitigate and or adaptation to climate change.
A huge impediment for us here in our country is the disproportion amount of power that unions like the Congress of South African Trade Unions, Cosatu, will in derailing policies that are not in their interest when we trying to address this things.
Does your department intend to stand up to the unions in order to enact the needed green transitions as described in this intent? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF ENVIRONMENT, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES: Well, I do not
know the hon Labuschagne gets her information from, but my own interaction with the union movement does not indicate to me that there is an allergy there to renewable energy.
I am sure that you are aware that my counterpart, the Minister of Mineral Resources and Energy has recently announced an integrated resource plan. I think we are extremely happy as the Department of Environment, Forestry and Fisheries with that integrated resource plan because what you would know is it would increase the component of renewables to 34%.
So, I think that government's intentions in this regard are clear. Thank you.
Hon Minister, your department needs to be congratulated for partnering with the Green Growth and Global Goals 2030 with the Danish government. Please inform this House of some of the other international agreements regarding this matter.
The MINISTER OF ENVIRONMENT, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES: Hon Dangor, I
do not have with me available in this session all of our agreements, but I can tell you that we have agreements across the globe with
countries as diverse as Canada, Ruanda, Germany and Sweden. So, there are many different agreements and if you give me a written question in this regard, I will give you a full list of them, but they are many. Thank you.
[Interjections.]
Hon Deputy Chairperson and hon Minister, I just want to find out why we are not rather have an agreement that is ratified by Parliament? Instead of having this Declaration of Intent which is not binding, why should rather have an agreement in a form of a bilateral with the Kingdom of Denmark that is binding and ratified by Parliament? Thanks.
The MINISTER OF ENVIRONMENT, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES: Hon member, I
suppose the reason is that we would want to explore the effectiveness of the partnership and the appetite from both parties. Once one is assured that this is a long-term relationship, I think that then one would be looking at formalising it a bit more. I suppose you do not really want to enter into a marriage until you know that this is somebody you want to be with for the rest of your life. [Laughter.]
Question 165:
The MINISTER OF ENVIRONMENT, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES: Deputy
Chairperson, with reference to the Forestry and Fisheries portfolios and the budgets which are still with the Department of Agriculture, Land Reform and Rural Development, the transition has not yet taken place, but it is in progress in line with the national macro- organisational governance process. The national macro-organisational governance, NMOG, is a process and it is in progress and we are currently submitting the departmental structure to the Department of Public Service and Administration for approval. After the approval has been received from the Department of Public Service and Administration, DPSA, as mentioned above, the National Treasury's approval is needed to change the Appropriation Bill to include the new structure in the Budget process which we hope will take place in November or December 2019.
The agreed upon figures are then transferred and incorporated in the estimates of the national expenditure for 2020. Finalisation and agreement on these figures ought to take place by 24 October, which has already come and gone. The estimates of the national expenditure for 2020 are then tabled in Parliament in February 2020, and from 01 April 2020, the newly establishes department will operate including the newly transferred functions.
What is currently happening is that we have an agreement together with the Department of Agriculture that we take joint decisions on all major matters so that we are both aware of everything that is happening in the department. Thank you very much.
Thank you, Deputy Chair. Minister, given the physical consolidation framework and poor performance of our economy, what are the departmental programmes most likely to be affected by the budget cuts or shortfalls; and how does the department intends to remedy the situation, hon Minister? Thank you.
THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: It is a new question, but if you have any response you can grant.
The MINISTER OF ENVIRONMENT, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES: Well, it is a
new question, but I guess the answer is generic. The answer is that you have to make due within the fiscal envelop. What you have to do is to look at where the areas of underperformance in the department are, where has there been underperformance in the department historically, do we find areas where a particular branch is meeting its targets but not spending its budget, in which case, maybe it has too much. And then you are going to make adjustments amongst
branches so that you give everybody a fair chance to enable them to undertake their operations. Thank you.
Thank you Deputy Chair. Hon Minister...
Sesotho:
... mane Zastron ho ile ha qalwa projeke ya ditlhapi mme e putlame, ebile moaho wa teng o fetohile lehaha la mashodu hobane ha ba fumane thuso.
English:
I just want to know, what action will be taken against the departmental officials who misdirected the budget from what it was meant for? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF ENVIRONMENT, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES: Hon member, I
don't have details of that particular project, but if you can give it to me I will investigate. I assume it could be an aquaculture project if it is an inland fishing project. I will be very pleased to receive those details and I will investigate. Thank you very much.
Thank you, Chairperson and thank you Minister. The Department of Environmental Affairs opposed some of the policy positions the fishery portfolio is about to inherit. Examples include the small scale fisheries identified in conservation priority areas such as St Lucia and the sites selected for coastal marine aquaculture development associated with Operation Phakisa in Algoa Bay and Langebaan. Minister, how do you foresee resolving these challenges when fisheries, aquaculture and all those become part your department?
Once again, Minister, let me remind you that although it seems to be in line with this question, but it is definitely new information. So, you can either respond or decide how to deal with it.
The MINISTER OF ENVIRONMENT, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES: Hon member, I
think in that we will have to sit down as a department, and we are already doing that in this process of looking at what would be the regulatory functions of the current Department of Environment, Forestry and Fisheries. Those regulatory functions would currently be happening in the oceans and coasts branch. Then we will need to look at where would a potential conflict of interests be and we will have to look at how we manage that.
One can understand that there could be similar issues around Forestry and both these branches have historically been in this department and they were moved out. I think that if you want a chart on our approach on this I would suggest that you submit a written question because it is a matter that we would be addressing ourselves too.
Question 146:
The MINISTER OF ENVIRONMENT, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES: Chair, I have
the answer to this question but anyway, I think I've got it as Question 144. A number of prominent South African scientists made key contributions to the intergovernmental panel on climate change 2018 report. South Africa expressed to other parties at the 24th Conference of the Parties, Cop 24, that it welcomes the 1,5 degrees Celsius report and regards it as a valuable and timely contribution to the global effort to address climate change. The report highlights that we are currently already experiencing climate change, especially in Africa, and the global efforts to meet the Paris Agreement temperature goals are extremely important.
South Africa is considering the complex implications of this report for our National Climate Change Response Policy. President Ramaphosa, in his statement to the United Nations, UN, Secretary-
General's Climate Action Summit on 23 September made clear our intention to revise our Nationally Determined Contributions, NDCs, to take into account the latest signs as reflected in the report. The Nationally Determined Contributions contains both adaptation and mitigation components, both of which will be updated to reflect the signs. Updating our NDCs presents an opportunity to facilitate clarity on the means of implementation, transparency and understanding of future NDCs as well as on the NDC accounting, adaptation components, and the enhanced transparency framework.
In the case of South Africa, this will be done within the context of sustainable development. The estimated period for submitting enhanced NDCs to the United Nations Framework Convention is in the third quarter of 2020 and implementation for the Nationally Determined Contributions should commence by the end of 2020. At the same time - on a national level, our Climate Change Bill would provide a national league or framework for climate action, including regular consideration of the latest signs. Thank you.
Thank you, hon Minister. What is your follow-up question, Labuschagne?
Afrikaans:
Agb Labuschagne, ons sal jou mos darem nie vergeet nie. Hoekom is jy dan al op jou voete?
English:
Thank you very much, Chairperson. Thank you Minister, you are quite right. You answered Question 144; it is referred to as a question in excess. So, something happened in the office that deals with questions - something that is not your fault or my fault because the question that is on the Order Paper here was on the prevention of pesticide pollution and other pollutants in the rivers. That was Question 146. So, there is a little bit of a mix up.
Hon Labuschagne? Are you calling order?
Yes.
You cannot address the Chair if you are calling order. Because I had to call hon Minister, so I didn't really attend to it. What is the issue? But in any case, the Minister said that she is ready with the response. In fact, she
seems as if she didn't respond to the question. If you allow her, she can respond now.
The MINISTER OF ENVIRONMENT, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES: My apologies,
hon member. On 10 September 2019, the Department of Environment, Forestry and Fisheries published regulations that phased out and banned certain persistent organic pollutants to protect human health and the environment, keeping in line with the Stockholm Convention of Persistent Organic Pollutants to which South Africa is a member. These regulations prescribe the requirements for the phase out of the used production distribution import and export as well as setting out specific time frames during which all listed substances must be completely phased out. These substances include - there is a long list here of five substances. Hon member, I think you probably have a written version and you won't test my Greek and Latin by making me read them out. Thank you.
Thank you Chairperson and thank you Minister. Minister, considering the fact that these regulations have been published even before the regulations regarding certain environmental laws that prohibit the pollution of rivers were published, we are all aware of the excessively large environmental disaster that have occurred in the Dusi River. Drinking water was
made completely unusable for the local communities and cleanup efforts to mitigate the effects of this disaster are going to take years. Does your department intent to criminally charge the CEO and all companies or any other liable person who were criminally negligent allowing this disaster to occur?
The MINISTER OF ENVIRONMENT, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES: Hon member, at
this stage, I cannot answer that question. We sent officials to that area of contamination and we have been working together with officials from the province and also from the municipality. I am not in the position to tell you the exact outcome and direction of that investigation in this sitting. That is the specifics that you can write to me about, and I can answer it. But I think what is important to say is that I visited the City of Ethekwini ...
Order, hon members. Please, order. [Interjections.] Can there be order in this House. You may continue, Minister.
The MINISTER OF ENVIRONMENT, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES: I visited the
City of Ethekwini at the same time President Ramaphosa's was visiting the district. The week before last, I took that opportunity to have a meeting with my counterparts in the province as well as
the manager of the city. We have set up a task team to look at the question of many matters relating to enforcement and also those relating to a whole range of spills that have recently occurred in that area - both in the rivers and also in the harbour. We looked at how we will co-ordinate more effectively and work together to prevent those incidents from happening in the first place and also to take better remedial action when and if they occur. Thank you.
Thank you Deputy Chairperson. Minister we welcome the new regulations. We just want to find out why the department took so long to penalise those who were applying the pesticides and other contaminations? What will be the consequences when people have defaulted on the regulations, moving forward? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF ENVIRONMENT, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES: Thank you very
much, hon member. I think that what is important for the hon member to understand is that the environment is a competence which is shared among national, provincial and local governments. Particularly in the metros, the enforcement officials are at local government level. One of the reasons we have set up this particular task team in the City of Ethekwini is to understand why these offices are not carrying out their enforcement functions and to understand how we can strengthen them when they are doing that.
We have our Green Scorpions whom we send to situations like that but you would understand that as a national department we really require the municipalities to be regularly monitoring what effluent is being placed in rivers by industries which they have licensed and from whom they received money.
Obviously, in issuing those licences, they would also be taking into account the fact that they would need to be monitoring what those industries do. Part of the reason we set up that particular task team is to try and understand why this enforcement role - which is primarily a municipal role in this instance - is not happening properly and how do we strengthen it and enable it to happen properly. Thank you.
Thank you, Minister. Minister, I think you will be the first to acknowledge that your department and the compliance office can't be everywhere they would like to be. The big challenge we are facing is lack of awareness of who to approach when these things go wrong. I think the public is faced with this challenge where they spot dumping in the rivers or spot something like that and they often are not aware of who to contact and where to go. Obviously, that means that some marketing needs to be done. There is also some co-operation between departments. Therefore, I would like to ask you
Minister if there is an agreement between your department and the Department of Police - which most people would see as their first line of contact for some sort of compliance - to train and make police officers aware of environmental laws and let them know who they can speak to and ensure that they are equipped in opening and investigating cases where environmental laws have been violated. Thank you.
The MINISTER OF ENVIRONMENT, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES: As I was
explaining to the previous hon member who was speaking, I don't think that this enforcement function is primarily the responsibility of the police. Yes, there are instances where they are environmental crimes and where we would need either as the national, provincial or local government to report those crimes to the police. In this particular instance, such as the spill we were talking about, the police were on site. But I think the key is that there are enforcement officers at every level of government and those enforcement officers are not doing their work. Part of what we would need to think about and look into is to ask ourselves how the hotline system works because in each municipality there would be numbers that people would be phoning for a range of issues pertaining to municipalities but perhaps we need to look at whether there is an integrated environment hotline. Thank you very much.
Hon Smit, ...
Afrikaans:
... jy hoef nie te sit en vloek nie. Ek gee jou nou die beurt.
Baie dankie, agb Adjunkvoorsitter
English:
Hon Minister, you answered the hon Ryder's question around spills and you also said that it is basically at municipality level where enforcement is supposed to take place. My question is with regard to cases where municipalities themselves are in contravention of the National Environmental Management Act and the Water Act and so forth. Cases are opened at the police station where they don't have knowledge of such issues. I had a similar case; I opened a case against the municipal manager of Mogalakwena Local Municipality, unfortunately it was an acting manager because they have this constant rotating of acting ...
Ask your question because your two minutes is about to expire. [Interjections.]
... that the police didn't even know how to open the case. I had to make copies of the Act to give them and explain to them. They kept on coming back to me and asking me what damage to the property that I have is. The more I explained to them in terms of the Act it is a contradiction. [Interjections.] Can I be protected, Deputy Chair? [Interjections.] Can I be protected? [Interjections.] Can I be protected? Thank you. How do we ensure that municipalities are also kept accountable in the same way that industries are accountable? Thank you.
Thank you, hon Smit. Hon Nhanha, the hon Smit doesn't need you to defend him. Hon Minister?
The MINISTER OF ENVIRONMENT, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES: Thank you very
much, hon Deputy Chairperson. Hon member, this is where the issue of the concomitant powers comes in because if a municipality is not carrying out its enforcement roles or if the municipality itself is breaching the act, then we need to be bringing in the province or we need to be bringing in national government. So, I think that you are looking at the remedy for the problem. I don't think that it is necessarily appropriate to bring in the police. You need to be bringing in the province to look at this problem or you can report
the problem to us so that we can see what remedial action needs to be taken.
Thank you very much, hon Minister of Environment, Forestry and Fisheries.
Afrikaans:
Julle is saam by die Kabinetvergadering; julle kan mekaar daar ontmoet.
English:
Thank you very much for the responses that deal with the questions that were posed particularly to you. We will now continue and welcome the Minister of Mineral Resources and Energy and request that he start to respond to Question 139.
Question 139:
Question 139 from hon
Smit is in two parts; Firstly, when an application for prospecting rights or mining rights is lodged, the applicant is required to simultaneously lodge an application for an environmental authorisation. Depending on the activities to be undertaken, the applicant will be required to submit either the basic assessment
report or the full scope and Environmental Impact Assessment, EIA, as per listing notices in as far as the application of environmental is concerned.
The document on applicable report shall be compiled as prescribed by EIA regulations. The decision on environmental authorisation application precedes the actual granting and subsequent issuing of prospecting or mining right. When the due process has been followed, the environmental authorisation, EA, application, the granting of the prospecting or mining right will be considered taking into account and into consideration the outcome of such application as per the criteria. Where necessary, the preinspection is also arranged. The provision of both National Environmental Management Act and EIA regulations are duly followed in this regard.
Secondly, the Department of Mineral Resources and Energy works very closely with the Department of Environment, Forestry and Fisheries. It is imperative to firstly indicate that the one environmental system was established to ensure that these departments can work closely in ensuring that environmental sustainability is fully considered as part of any development especially relating to mining.
To this end, as part of environmental authorisation applications, if any interested or affected party seeks to appeal, the decision made by the Department of Mineral Resources, the Minister of Environment, Forestry and Fisheries is the appeal authority.
Furthermore, the departments are working closely together on a number of task teams formulated under the Interdevelopmental Project Implementation Committee. These task teams are tasked to deal with, amongst others, all aspects relating to environmental authorisation application process.
The formulation and alignment of legislation, regulations and guidelines as well as formulation of mechanism to deal with the compliance and enforcement aspects by the environmental management inspectors and environmental mineral resource inspectors; continuous meetings are held in this regard. That is the answer to Question 139. [Applause.]
Thank you hon Deputy Chairperson, hon Minister, can you then please explain to us: How did it happen that prospecting rights were issued in the ecological, sensitive and protected Nylsvley for the Volspruit mine in Limpopo as well as prospecting rights awarded to Mazolwandle on the southern border of Marloth Park
and Lionspruit at the Kruger National Park in Mpumalanga, which is a world heritage site. How will you ensure that this is stopped now and not repeated ever again?
People apply and
follow all the processes in the Department of Mineral Resources and Energy and the environmental aspects are done jointly with the Department of Environment, Forestry and Fisheries. If there is unhappiness about the outcome, the Ministry of Environment, Forestry and Fisheries is appeal body. Everybody has the right to appeal to the relevant Ministry.
We have never had a conflict over those appeals. If the appeal overturns the decision of the Department of Mineral Resources and Energy, the department does comply. In future, we will comply. There are a few cases where we were forced to comply particularly in Mpumalanga, and so we did. [Applause.]
Thank you very much Chairperson, Minister, my concern in this regard with Mazolwandle is that these mining rights were given even though this company committed plagiarism by copying verbatim an environmental impact assessment from a Limpopo coal mine. My question to you is: How is it possible that your department
was not able to detect this blatant attempt at plagiarism and what will your department in future to prevent any plagiarism happening with any other applications that will be sent through? Thank you.
All I am bringing to
the attention of the member is that we have 16 official offices countrywide that co-operate. I don't know at what point it becomes plagiarism or sharing of information because if I am processing a particular application, there is another department in another province that is experienced, I do refer to that province for reference. If there is plagiarism and unhappiness ... as I said ... any affected party can appeal that decision. If the decision is overturned, we will comply. [Applause.]
IsiXhosa:
Enkosi kakhulu Sekela Sihlalo. Mphathiswa ...
English:
...does your department have the capacity and willingness to hold mining companies that flout environmental laws accountable? I am asking this because we know that mining companies are never held responsible for acid mine drainage in Mpumalanga and that mining companies have left the coast of Namaqualand damaged forever and
have done nothing to rehabilitate that landscape, "Tiger". [Laughter.]
Hon member, can you sit down and put off the mic, please? Hon Minister, you may respond.
Let me repeat this,
the law has been changed to provide for the appeal system and the reason for that is that if there are shortcomings in the decision- making of a department, the other department has the authority as an appeal body to deal and overrule the other department. Capacity is something relative because you may have a number of people but the skills in those departments isn't the same because you can't multiply the same individual. There are many other factors that come into effect in this ... the actual human element where people are forced to do things in particular way because of pressures and corruption. These are the issues we are looking at. That is why we are appealing to society to appeal if they are not happy with a decision.
Minister, the question was about the compliance from mining companies. I just want to ask the Minister ... there are mines especially in different parts of Mpumalanga who were mined and
the miners left and there is no rehabilitation that has been done. I heard you earlier saying you are working closely with the Department of Environment, Forestry and Fisheries. Some of these mines are causing very serious health hazards to the communities. What is the department doing with those mining companies that mined and left without rehabilitating the landscape? Some of them are probably no longer in the country. Thank you.
Every mining company is required to put upfront provision for rehabilitation during the lifespan of a mine. Many of the mines are falling under the category of derelict and ownerless mines. About 6 000 of those mines ... last year; we rehabilitated 167 of those mines. That programme continues because the reserves for rehabilitation as accumulated during the mining life are used.
I don't know when you say in Mpumalanga since the behaviour of mining companies is the same everywhere, whether it is in Gauteng or Mpumalanga or North West, the rules must be the same. Companies are expected to make provision for rehabilitation upfront and during the mining life.
Thank you very much hon Minister, hon Bebee, you don't have a follow-up question on this one. Hon Mokause, can you just relax.
Your problem is that you don't want to listen. That is your main problem.
Your problem is that you speak without indicating that you are rising on a point of order. [Interjections.]
But your problem is that you are chairing yourself.
Can you say what your point of order is, "sisi" [sister]?
I am rising on a point of order, Chairperson. Firstly, you cannot chair yourself, you are chairing a House and you must forever recognise and listen to us; secondly ...
It is not a point of order. What is the point of order?
... the member of the EFF rose on a follow-up question. It is extremely unacceptable for a Minister to just run over the question and downplay the question like he did. He did not answer what the EFF member asked. The member of the EFF asked: What if these mining companies are not complying? What is your department doing in relation to that?
Hon Minister, there is no follow-up from the hon Zandamela because he was following up on a question from another member. If he has a question, let him sent it to you as a written question and you'll respond to it. Can you continue to respond to Question 153.
On a point of order!
Your point of order is?
Okay, Deputy Chairperson, you addressed hon Mokause as "sisi" in the House and it is not allowed.
Hon Mokause, I apologise. Can you please continue hon Minister?
Question 153:
With regard to
Question 153, we have started a process as the three departments - Mineral Resources and Energy, Public Enterprises, and Trade and Industry, and competition - to engage stakeholders that are providing primary feedstock to Eskom's power stations. We had a meeting with coal companies. We are negotiating there and saying that there must be a ceiling with regard to the price of coal that goes to Eskom, otherwise ... We have discovered that there are a number of mines that make over 100% profit, and others make 70% and 50% profit. We are saying that we must have a ceiling with regard to the price. That proposal is with the coal mining companies.
... [Inaudible.] ... the correct response?
Yes.
Okay.
It is the commitment by various stakeholders ...
Okay.
... in the
discussions.
The second group that we have met are Window 1, 2 and 3 of renewable energy. To them we are saying that the prices of those are too high for Eskom. We have met twice. We are following ... with that. Only when we have completed that process will we then talk about administered prices and the possibility of reducing the electricity price, particularly for industrialisation and ... [Inaudible.] ... development.
At this point in time we haven't seen any negativity in the reaction of the stakeholders. They have all been co-operative and they have committed ... to the process, but the process is not completed.
I think the Minister might have the questions and answers mixed up. He answered on Question 150 instead of on Question 153.
Hon Du Toit, I asked the hon Bebee if it is the response to the question that she asked and she
agreed. I am still the Chairperson, even if Mokause doesn't feel like that. I have made sure that it is the correct response to the question. Hon Bebee, your follow up. [Interjections.]
Okay, thank you very much Chair and thank you very much, hon Minister for the detailed answer.
Hon Minister, in light of the President's call in his inaugural state of the nation address in February 2018 that mining must once again be seen as a sunrise industry, what are the initiatives that the department has taken thus far to achieve this objective as pronounced to the nation by the President?
Although it's not
related to the original question, I will answer it.
We have been working with the mining industry in various aspects. I don't know if you noticed that in the first quarter decline, mining contributed the biggest share of that decline - 0,8% of the decline.
We engaged the industry. There was ... [Inaudible.] ... of stability. In the second quarter, mining made the biggest positive contribution, which was 1% of the 3,1%.
Due to production and the management of companies not being in a straight line, it is a function of ongoing engagements which is happening in the industry. At the end of the day it is the mining companies that must turn the industry around and make it a reliable source of income for the country.
Afrikaans:
Adjunkvoorsitter, baie, baie dankie. My vraag gaan basies oor die rol van elektrisiteit in die ekonomie. Dit is die vraag hier.
Die Minister het erken dat die regering gefaal het om seker te maak dat daar genoegsame elektrisiteit ... die bou van kragstasies ... dat daar genoegsame elektrisiteit is. Hy het ook by tye genoem dat die regering gewaarsku was dat hulle in 'n sekere jaar 2007 die kapasitiet van kragvoorsiening gaan bereik ... dat daar 'n tekort gaan wees.
My vraag wat ek wil vra is ... want iemand moet verantwoordelikheid vat vir die feit dat die ekonomie in hierdie toestand is wat dit is en dat die burgers van die land in duisternis gedompel is.
Nou, my vraag aan die Minister is soos volg. Sal u die burgers van die land s dat die ANC regering die citizens [burgers] van die land gefaal het?
Agb Minister, u hoef nie die vraag te beantwoord ... [Tussenwerpsels.] ... as u nie so voel nie. U hoef nie die vraag te beantwoord as u voel dit is ... want dit is nie deel van die vraag nie. Maar, ons laat dit aan u eie oordeel oor.
Ek verstaan. Ek
verstaan daardie feit. [Tussenwerpsels.]
English:
The answer is as follows. I agree with you that electricity in particular and energy in general is a catalyst for economic performance in a country. I also agree with you that, as we sit here today, the price of electricity is too high and it is not contributing positively to economic performance.
So, what should we do? The reason why we took this imitative of meeting with these stakeholders is to try and manage the price of
electricity downwards. If we can do that the economy will perform. Thank you. [Applause.]
Question 150:
Hon Deputy
Chairperson, actually the question should be directed to the Minister of Public Enterprises, where Eskom falls in terms of jurisdiction as we sit here today. However, what I can also confirm is that the Integrated Resources Plan, IRP, has now been gazetted. It is published and it gives the framework for sources of electricity generation. [Applause.]
Hon members, yes before that all of you just really put your hands down. Before that let us allow the hon Du Toit, because it is his question. The Minister was actually correct to redirect the question to the correct Ministry. However ... May I please, but the hon Du Toit we will allow you in terms of our procedure to ask your follow-up question and then we will come to you.
Hon Deputy Chair and hon Minister, since you mentioned that the question was posed to the incorrect department I
have the figures here. According to the Mail & Guardian indicated
...
The hon Du Toit, really.
Hon Deputy Chairperson, I have two minutes.
If you have the ... You have your two minutes, but if you have the response then why did you ask the question? Do not be like that. Come now.
Deputy Chairperson, could you please just turn the clock back to give me my two minutes! Please be fair in this House! Thank you very much, hon Deputy Chairperson. Minister according to the article in the Mail & Guardian dated 05 April 2019, that loses of about R1,4 billion on two contracts alone at that time, as Eskom did at that time paid one supplier Glencore double the prize, it was paying another smaller supplier for the same quality coal, R343,41 difference between Glencore and the smaller other prize of R607 per ton of coal, the cheapest supplier was R263 per ton of coal.
Now, according to the Mail & Guardian, up to R10 billion could have been saved if there were no ceiling price on coal and if there was
no corruption in the tender procedures and the allocation of these tenders.
My question is: Why didn't the Ministry act timeously since this has been brought under the attention in the beginning of the year already, but up to now, none of these contracts have been rescinded?
Hon Minister, like I said, here you respond to questions that are applicable to you and not to new information. You do not have to.
Yes. No, because it is
also important to share information in the House. The hon member must remember Deputy Chairperson that I am in the Portfolio of Mineral Resources and Energy for five months now, but I do not renege the responsibility taken by my predecessors.
The reason that we are engaging coal mining companies and the renewable companies about the prices that goes to Eskom is because we want to deal with that issue. For if we succeed in dealing with that matter the picture will change. So, we are dealing with the matter and that is how far we have gone.
IsiXhosa:
Sihlalo ohloniphekileyo. Kufuneka siwafundise amalungu emibutho ephikisayo ngomsebenzi weSebe leziMbiwa nezaMandla kunye neSebe lezaMashishini kaRhulumente, elinoxanduva lokusoloko lijonge ukuba ingaba isebe lenza kakuhle kusini na kwaye nemali isetyenziswa ngendlela efanelekileyo kwa-Eskom. Imibuzo ngo-Eskom necontract unit costs malunga nezibhambathiso mayithunyelwe kwisebe lezaMashishini kaRhulumente.
Umbuzo uthi: Mphathiswa, ingaba ilizwe lomZantsi Afrika likulungele kusini na...
English:
... to use coal cliff from tight mines?
IsiXhosa:
Ingaba ayizukuba neziphumo ezibi kwabo baxhomekeke kumalahle ukwenza ingeniso? Enkosi, Sihlalo.
Hon Deputy House
Chairperson and hon member, no, decisions that are taken cannot only consider communities just around the coal mines. We take decisions that talk to the needs of the country, that talk to our commitments
particularly the Paris Agreement and all those issues and we use those to take balanced decisions. That is why we subscribe to the Just Transition so that we do not move like a pendulum from one extreme to the other. In implementing the Just Transition we are going to be able to manage our movement from high emissions to low emissions.
So, communities that are surrounding the mines are taken into account in discussing the Just Transition. [Applause.]
Hon Deputy Chairperson and hon Minister, with the government's continuous investment in coal-based electricity generation like the investment in Kusile and Medupi Power Stations, will you please today acknowledge that there is no current technology available to either reduce or eliminate carbon emissions from coal-based electricity generation and that there is no such thing as previously spoken of cleaner coal and by virtue of that that this government has not been committed to the Paris Agreement.
Again Minister, it is not in your question, but you can respond to it if you want to.
No. The problem is
that when you tell the untruths with a straight face people believe you. There are technologies for cleaner coal and we are going to pursue them and test them. Already, we have a pilot study on carbon capture and deposit in the Northern KwaZulu-Natal. We are going to open a second pilot study in another second site. Once we have proven that it works we will report to government and see if we can use it widely.
We are also going to look into coal gas degasification and see what impact it will have on the quality of coal and the quality of emissions of coal. So, we need to all the time think, experiment and leave it if it does not work, but to just say because you say so, therefore there is no such a thing. I met it in the portfolio committee. I think it is the position of the DA that that is a myth. We want to test that myth and demystify it. [Applause.]
Thank you very much, hon Minister, for your response. In the last few months the government has taken a firm view to stabilise the energy supply industry in terms of the Independent Power Producers, IPPs, in terms of the coal industry itself and in terms of bailing out Eskom. Are you quite confident that all these measures will lead us into the stability within the
sector and if not why don't we look at it from another point of view?
Hon Deputy Chairperson and hon member, that question takes us to the next question about the IRP. Actually the IRP has now been published and gazetted. Now, once it has been published and gazetted it provides us with the framework, but implementation will take its own time. As we test it we will see if it stabilises the economic supply. However, our commitment is on security of energy supply.
Question 141:
For Question 141, the
answer is simple, it's that the Question has become redundant in that the Integrated Resource Plan, IRP, was approved by Cabinet on the 16nth and gazetted on the 18nth.
Hon Smit, do you want to make a follow- up Question?
Hon Deputy Chairperson, as dumb, when I submitted this question it was not released yet, but thank you Minister for at long-last releasing the correct IRP for that matter. How will the
IRP contribute to your commitment to the Paris Agreement towards reducing our carbon footprint, which has 45% by 2015?
I also propose hon Minister, while the Minister of Environmental Affairs is sitting next to you, who actually said in our Committee of Environmental Affairs that there is no such thing as clean coal, and the carbon cannot be eliminated, catch it might be. But then, where is it going, under ground or into our water system or wherever you want to send it to? But I think you should take further advice from the Minister next to you. Thank you.
We'll take the advice. We do take it all the time by the way.
Hon members, the Question was: When will the IRP be announced? It is announced and it has been published. So, there cannot be follow-ups because that was the Question. Let us now attend Question 159.
Question 159:
The Question is:
Whether it is prudent for the government to consider cancelling all Bid Window contracts? You don't deal with contracts that way. Once
you sign a contract, that contract is valid, and you deal with your to a contract with respect. That's why I explained earlier that, what we are busy with is not cancellation of the Bid Window contracts. It's about talking to them to reduce the price so that the impacts will be on the ultimate Eskom price.
You see, all the time we have been told that on the average, renewables is R220. But on telling the actual figures, we discovered that actually, from PV Window 1 is at R4,25c a unit, and it goes on because they signed an agreement at this point and got guaranteed CPI increase o the price. That's why we are talking to them. We are not forcing them or imposing condition to them. Instead, we are asking them if, we can find a formula of reducing that uptake price?
So, that's what we are doing. Therefore, cancelling the contract is not on the table for now.
Afrikaans:
Voorsitter, ek neem kennis van wat die Minister s oor die vraag. Ek dink die Minister sal saamstem dat die prys van die krag te is hoog en dat dit nodig is vir 'n ingryping. Die regering en u s altyd dat die regering aan die praat is, dat die
regering in gesprekvoering is, en besig is om te praat. Maar ek dink die tyd van praat is verby.
In hul gesprekke s hierdie onafhanklike kragprodusente dat hulle wil h hierdie kontrakte met nog 10 jaar langer verleng moet word.
My vraag aan die Minister is, stem u saam dat daardie kontrakte nog verleng word. Ons wil graag h daardie kontrakte moet verbreek word. Dankie.
The discussions with
...
Afrikaans:
... onafhanklike kragvoorsieners ...
English:
... that is, independent power producers. About the prices of Window 1, 2 and 3, we agree that they are expensive, that's why we are negotiating with them. But if you look into the projection for Window 4, already the range is very close to being reasonable because on PV, it's around R1,08c and on Wind, it is at 87c. So, it's coming down.
Therefore, all we are saying is that: Let's talk to them because renewables are not emergency energy suppliers, they must be part of the system all the time. That's why they should be considered within the context of energy and the economy. So, the engagement with them is about that. Again, if you talk about cancellation of contracts, at this point in time, they are supplying about 4,5% of energy.
Once Window 4 gets into the stream which has already been signed, it will increase. We are projecting about 18% from renewables by 2030 in the IRP. So, we are not only looking at the price, but we are also looking at the security of supply.
Afrikaans:
Adjunkvoorsitter ...
IsiXhosa:
Ndiyabulele Mphathiswa ...
English:
Considering that the cost of renewable energy has declined dramatically in the last decade. The renewables forms a key element of nongrid connection to rural areas. What is government's long-term strategy to procure renewable energy in order to ultimately lower
the price of electricity and achieve the NDP target of full electrification by 2030?
Firstly, you must
remember as we seat here today that renewables do not have the baseline capacity. They don't have it. They give you energy on availability. What is thought to be a solution to that, but not immediately, is the development of the battle storage technology. Once you have it, you will go a long way in addressing the base load problem.
Now, as I said earlier, some people are always shouting at me about when do I declare Bid Window 5, but I say, I don't want Bid Window 5, I want renewables to be part of the system in the long term. I also tell them to be ready for Bid Window 27 if need be. But the most important thing is that, the reason that we give you an energy mix proposal is that we don't want to have a total fail option because we are not like Germany which have France as a neighbour, where they don't have the baseline, they can get it from the nuclear energy in France.
We don't have that neighbour. That is why we should move correctly...
IsiXhosa:
... sihambe kakuhle.
English:
... and actually be systematic in movement from high emissions to low emissions. That is our approach to this matter.
Minister, do you support the cheaper Energy Bill in concept that will see energy security and price relief to the already strained and struggling South Africans who can't afford another electricity price hike?
I normally explain this concept to people like hon Smit that, lowest cost doesn't mean cheapest. Okay? It means the net impact of the cost overall, including opportunity cost and other things. For an example, when you burn diesel in pick hours, it is very expensive, but in terms of availability, it is the lowest cost option at your disposal.
So, I understand that concept in broad terms than narrowly cheap as in rands and cents. I look into opportunity cost. That's why for an example when I argue with many people who are very fundamental in discussing this issue, I normally tell them that, if you look into
nuclear power from Koeberg today, it is at 40c per unit to Eskom. It is the lowest, most reliable and most efficient.
But, if you want to assess the cost, you must build in the commissioning cost which is higher, and the decommissioning cost which is also higher. So, the cost should be covering all aspects of the life of a facility. That is why that Question was posed. We have energy mix in the IRP so that we can have options in dealing with this matter.
Through you Chairperson, Minister, apart from all the very sound reasons you have given why we shouldn't annul these contracts legally, would it not also pose financial problems for Eskom, should they choose that route?
Deputy Chairperson, it would in a way because if you breach a contract, you are subjecting yourself to penalties. That's why it is always not advisable to be delinquent in dealing with partners in any relationship. Thank you.
Question 162:
The SIOC Community
Development Trust owns three per cent Sishen Iron Ore Company Party
Limited. Other companies in the area will be expected to comply with the 2018 Mining Charter when they renew or cede their mining rights. The Board of Trustees is comprised of a number of members. We have listed the names from Nelson Mosiapoa, Vusi Malie, Cynthia Mogodi, Conny Molusi, Derek Van Staden, Willem Heerden, Schaba Sithole, Amanda Dippennar, Apheous Pole, Yvonne Mfolo and the Trust gets audited by an independent auditor on an annual basis. So, every year you get audited financial statement of the Trust and the Trust is involved in many activities in the Kuruman Kathu, Postmasburg area and broader Northern Cape. As of today, the Trust is worth R6 billion net asset value and it's among others owned a 30% stake in SA Airlink. When you get into a plane SA Airlink, you must know that 30% belongs to the Trust, which is worth R400 million and the Khathu Solar Park. So, it's an active Trust that is not waiting for dividends, it is also involved in many other activities to improve its capacity.
Thank you Deputy Chairperson, allow me to appreciate the input made by the Minister on the question that I posed. Though the question was necessarily confined to Sishen Iron Ore Company, SIOC, the mining companies also in the Kalahari base, including both Assmang ... [Inaudible.] and other black emerging manganese players. However, I will use the information that is
provided to a follow up question, hon Minister. Hon Minister, from the information that you have provided, clearly the domination by the company's Trustees, which is four and the two independent Trustees appointed also by the founder, creates an imbalance composition of this Board of Trustees. This clearly says that the decisions in terms of this Trust will always be skewed in favour of the mining company. Therefore, one critical element that I want to request the Minister to do, will the Minister engage the mining company with regard to the independent Trustee and the chairperson of this Board because the term has expired. For us, as an ANC-led government, we exercise control over these entities that are supposed to be owned by the communities. It is important that we have control. Therefore, will the Minister engage the mining company to ensure that he is consulted on the appointment of the chairperson and the independent Trustees, and also the reduction of the mining company's Trustees on that Board? Thank you, hon Minister.
Thank you Deputy
Chairperson, you are right in principle, but the other side you should work whether the Trust is performing - to me that is the test. It is not who is in it because you can put the right people. We know of Trust like that where you have all the right people and the money disappears. You can't account for it; you can't account
its investment and you can't locate the value. There are such Trustees. So, in whatever we do with that Trust, we should assess its performance and whether it is doing what is expected of it to do. Then, we correct areas where there are weaknesses. That is what I agree to. For me, I don't think the issue is the part of appointing the chairperson; it is whether that chairperson of the Trustees together with the Trust, do what is expected of them and the Trust is performing. Not unless we say it is not developing the area to the extent it expected to. However, opening it up for the sake of opening up may bring in other operational and financial risks to the Trust itself.
If I was not chairing, I would have said something, but let me ... eat my piece. [Laughter.]
You can say.
No, I will tell it afterwards.
Thank you Deputy Chair and the Minister, I have been covered in a certain sense by hon Mmoiemang. I just want to clarify, hon Minister, these Trustees are they getting any education or help from your department? If not, are you willing to assist them
so that we can uplift them as Trustees of the day in those Boards or Trust where they are sitting? Can they really fulfil the jobs they are supposed to do, to the best of their abilities and to the advantage of those communities they are serving? Thank you.
And not specifically but we can advise, because the Trust has the resources. It can send its Trustees for training. That can be taken on, but if you need our advice, we can advise that Trust. One of the issues that we have avoided even in the new Mining Charter is to create clauses that put our fingers in the till. We are not children of shopkeepers. We can't keep our fingers in the till, we must be away. We can advise the Trust but we must keep a healthy distance between the Trust and the department. Next time we'll come here, you will be asked questions that a departmental official X, Y and Z have done this and that. You must be careful of that, as a department.
Thank you, Deputy Chairperson. Minister, calling for nominations of this particular Trust and appointment of these Trustees, the majority of times, it is done in an extremely skewed and favourable way to the ruling party. Members who are appointed belong to the ruling party and they account to the ruling party. As a result, when development and any other tenders are advertised,
they benefit - the ruling party and those who are in charge of the Trust. The community suffers because those who are in the Trust belong to the ruling party. We want to see participation across the board irrespective of your political affiliation, but that is not happening. What is your intervention in this regard, as a Minister of Mineral Resources?
I don't know how
Trustees are appointed in terms of political affiliation. I do not know that. [Interjections.] No, you asked a question. [Interjections.] Don't shout and point fingers. Listen, listen! Listen, I am giving you an answer Mokause. [Interjections.] Hon Mokause, I am giving you an answer to your question. Yes, hon Mokause.
One of the things that is always confusing people is if for example in a particular area the footprint of a particular party is big, it will be big in that community. Therefore, it is easy to see the fingerprints of that party in any structure in that community. However, normally it is dependent on the activities of the individual members in that community to be nominated and elected a Trustee. I know of many Trusts' that are chaired by nonANC members, and they are doing well, but in the Board you will find a number ANC
members' because of the demographics of the area and the footprint of the
